Public Schools

[dude58677]

Should public schools be run the way community colleges are run? An elementary, middle school, and high school will have the following features:

1) There will be syllabuses for every class
2) Add/drop programs
3)Morning, Afternoon, and Evening classes offered
4) Students can walk out of class and off school grounds but if they do it too much they will not get the material to pass the course. This would teach personal responsibility.
5) Students must have a certain number of credits to graduate
6) All students are allowed to have academic advisors of their choosing

This would prevent bullying, school shootings, and students would be motivated to learn.

[nate895]

That might be a good transition to a totally private system.

[QueenB4Liberty]

This would prevent bullying, school shootings, and students would be motivated to learn.

You had me up until this. While I think you pose good ideas, these problems are still around in college.

[noxagol]

You had me up until this. While I think you pose good ideas, these problems are still around in college.

Is it because of college in and of itself, or the fact that in all school before then, these were created and then transfered into college. DUM DUM DUUUUMMMMM

[South Park Fan]

While I would support this as a much better alternative to the current system we have, the sad reality is that most people seem to like the system of public schools being expensive babysitters.

[ChaosControl]

This would prevent bullying, school shootings, and students would be motivated to learn.
No it wouldn't.

As for your suggestions, eh well if the local community wants to do it fine.
I'm not sure I would support those positions even though I certainly support reform.

[dude58677]

While I would support this as a much better alternative to the current system we have, the sad reality is that most people seem to like the system of public schools being expensive babysitters.

I actually think this is what HB 542 in New Hampshire is all about.

[QueenB4Liberty]

Is it because of college in and of itself, or the fact that in all school before then, these were created and then transfered into college. DUM DUM DUUUUMMMMM

Maybe if they weren't already like that once they got to college, but a lot of other things would have to change for there to be no bullying or school shootings.

[dude58677]

Maybe if they weren't already like that once they got to college, but a lot of other things would have to change for there to be no bullying or school shootings.

They may or may not bully but you can't deny that they will be motivated to learn.

[Vessol]

What should we do with public schools?

Abolish them.

[Kludge]

Great suggestions, and it's similar to some of the experiments my former high school was experimenting with & why I adore them - but this will keep change from happening politically:


While I would support this as a much better alternative to the current system we have, the sad reality is that most people seem to like the system of public schools being expensive babysitters.
Kids go to school, parents go to work - almost always on the same schedule, and in today's society, it's very likely BOTH are being babysat.

It really is difficult to find parents who give a shit about their kids' lives @ school beyond the shallow "you really need to apply yourself more, Junior" every few months when report cards go out. Some parents won't even acknowledge when their kid performs well. They just assume everything related to it will take care of itself, because that's what they pay the teachers for. Instead, in the sad ideal of the system, the teacher becomes a replacement parent, but even that's fairly rare.

[dude58677]

What should we do with public schools?

Abolish them.

Yes we should but this should be done if abolishing cannot be done in the near future.

[ammorris]

Should public schools be run the way community colleges are run? An elementary, middle school, and high school will have the following features:

1) There will be syllabuses for every class
2) Add/drop programs
3)Morning, Afternoon, and Evening classes offered
4) Students can walk out of class and off school grounds but if they do it too much they will not get the material to pass the course. This would teach personal responsibility.
5) Students must have a certain number of credits to graduate
6) All students are allowed to have academic advisors of their choosing

This would prevent bullying, school shootings, and students would be motivated to learn.

This might be fine with the older students (most high schools already incorporate some of these ideas), but it wouldn't be a great idea for the younger kids, and even a lot of the high schoolers. Children are not just small adults. They take a long time to develop, cognitively and emotionally. During childhood, they need help making decisions that will benefit them in the long-term. As they get older and their reasoning abilities get stronger, you can gradually turn some of those decisions over to them. You cannot, however, expect a fifth-grader to choose to go to math class because "it will help you get a good job when you get older." Kids at that age simply don't have the ability to think that way.

[dude58677]

This might be fine with the older students (most high schools already incorporate some of these ideas), but it wouldn't be a great idea for the younger kids, and even a lot of the high schoolers. Children are not just small adults. They take a long time to develop, cognitively and emotionally. During childhood, they need help making decisions that will benefit them in the long-term. As they get older and their reasoning abilities get stronger, you can gradually turn some of those decisions over to them. You cannot, however, expect a fifth-grader to choose to go to math class because "it will help you get a good job when you get older." Kids at that age simply don't have the ability to think that way.

The parents and their academic advisors are there to guide them. I would also think the school would have a marketing and sales department. If people are not taught the concept of freedom at a young age, they will never understand that as an adult.

[noxagol]

This might be fine with the older students (most high schools already incorporate some of these ideas), but it wouldn't be a great idea for the younger kids, and even a lot of the high schoolers. Children are not just small adults. They take a long time to develop, cognitively and emotionally. During childhood, they need help making decisions that will benefit them in the long-term. As they get older and their reasoning abilities get stronger, you can gradually turn some of those decisions over to them. You cannot, however, expect a fifth-grader to choose to go to math class because "it will help you get a good job when you get older." Kids at that age simply don't have the ability to think that way.

Are they this way because that's just the way they are, or is this a product of school as it is now?

Kids naturally want to learn, everything. It is human nature to be inquisitive and to learn. School destroys this by making learning suck.

[LibForestPaul]

What should we do with public schools?

Abolish them.

But think of the teachers, and the administrators, and their pensions, and their bought and paid for votes. What are they to do, get a real job and work, w/o 10wks vacation...egad!

[fisharmor]

Should public schools be run the way community colleges are run?.......

< deep breath.... grabs bridge of nose.... >
Your post assumes that the purpose of public schools is education.

It isn't.

If the purpose was education, it would be axiomatic that among over three thousand counties, parishes, and independent cities in the US, someone would have gotten the idea to play with the format in order to try to improve results.

Since the same format (with some nibbling around the edges) is strictly maintained in every single one of about 3000 public school systems, it therefore follows that the purpose is not education. If the system is inviolate, and some of those schools don't educate, then the system is intended to do something else.

Vessol already won the thread. There shouldn't be public schools.

In the absence of public "schooling", there would be at least hundreds of competing systems. That's orders of magnitude more competitors than there are in phone manufacturing, and look at what they're able to achieve.
If competing education systems existed, they would by the very nature of competition try every single format already known to man, and would create new ones every year.

[fisharmor]

But think of the teachers, and the administrators, and their pensions, and their bought and paid for votes. What are they to do, get a real job and work, w/o 10wks vacation...egad!

I have a solution that will work for ANY government employee.
Continue to pay them their salary and benefits for 20 more years, and change the job definition so that it is one line: "never report to work".
Just pay them to go away.
They can't hire more if they don't report to work.
The damage they do isn't that they collect a salary: it's the things they do for the salary that are the problem.
And we're already getting robbed to pay for their salary.
So give it to them. Consider it the cost of not having them damage society any longer.
I will totally tolerate the robbery for 20 more years if it means that my children won't get robbed.

[dude58677]

< deep breath.... grabs bridge of nose.... >
Your post assumes that the purpose of public schools is education.

It isn't.

If the purpose was education, it would be axiomatic that among over three thousand counties, parishes, and independent cities in the US, someone would have gotten the idea to play with the format in order to try to improve results.

Since the same format (with some nibbling around the edges) is strictly maintained in every single one of about 3000 public school systems, it therefore follows that the purpose is not education. If the system is inviolate, and some of those schools don't educate, then the system is intended to do something else.

Vessol already won the thread. There shouldn't be public schools.

In the absence of public "schooling", there would be at least hundreds of competing systems. That's orders of magnitude more competitors than there are in phone manufacturing, and look at what they're able to achieve.
If competing education systems existed, they would by the very nature of competition try every single format already known to man, and would create new ones every year.

This post was brought up because the New Hampshire legislature is making efforts in that direction. There is a bill HB 542 tat repeals compulsory schooling laws that passed the House and has been introduced in the Senate. Yes, I would ultimately support abolishing public schools but good things do take time. If they were to refuse to appropiate the funds for a public school that would also be fine but as of now this HB 542 is what we have to work on.

[dude58677]

I have a solution that will work for ANY government employee.
Continue to pay them their salary and benefits for 20 more years, and change the job definition so that it is one line: "never report to work".
Just pay them to go away.
They can't hire more if they don't report to work.
The damage they do isn't that they collect a salary: it's the things they do for the salary that are the problem.
And we're already getting robbed to pay for their salary.
So give it to them. Consider it the cost of not having them damage society any longer.
I will totally tolerate the robbery for 20 more years if it means that my children won't get robbed.

Another thing. If the public schools were defunded as a way to abolish public schools, you would still have truancy officers arresting people for not attending private schools or would argue the shut down was only temporary. It needs to be made clear that the system is voluntary and then people would send their kids to private schools because there would be no excuse that they couldn't afford it since the public schols would require tuition. The private schools would adopt the public school voluntary system or more people would homeschool or unschool. Good things take time!

[fisharmor]

This post was brought up because the New Hampshire legislature is making efforts in that direction. There is a bill HB 542 tat repeals compulsory schooling laws that passed the House and has been introduced in the Senate. Yes, I would ultimately support abolishing public schools but good things do take time. If they were to refuse to appropiate the funds for a public school that would also be fine but as of now this HB 542 is what we have to work on.

Ok, so with a little context, here is something that the state will never consider, which I believe is vital to education.

"Children" should be allowed to work.
Some people are lucky enough to have a job of some kind in high school. Most are not.
The result is that people are 18 or older before they realize what money is worth.
It means that they are 18 before they can really start to decide what they want to do with their lives. I'm basing that on the fact that I'm now doing something that no guidance counselor ever mentioned, and the fact that if I could do it all over again I'd do something else that no guidance counselor ever mentioned.
I didn't get exposed to the things I would really want to do until I had a lot of on-the-job experience, and the thing I'm doing now was based on an assessment of the marketplace and what I thought I could make decent money at.

By contrast, "school" is designed from the ground up to determine what you need to be doing to best serve society.
Grades are put into place not to judge whether the child is learning, but to determine where pressures can be applied to the individual to make them do what their superiors want.
Vocational counseling isn't done to help the individual learn what they would enjoy: it's done to discover what they'd be good at.

How educated does the individual end up being, when he or she isn't really making fundamental decisions about what they will do for the next 40 years?

When 8th graders are allowed to go to work as union certified welders, not only will we end up with a lot more savvy and experienced adults, but the ones that like it enough to decide to go on to become electrical engineers won't be so divorced from reality. You'll also have a lot fewer professional welders who got stuck there because they did it from 18-26 and then got a wife and kids and trapped.

[heavenlyboy34]

that ^^ is full of win +rep

[denison]

When 8th graders are allowed to go to work as union certified welders, not only will we end up with a lot more savvy and experienced adults, but the ones that like it enough to decide to go on to become electrical engineers won't be so divorced from reality. You'll also have a lot fewer professional welders who got stuck there because they did it from 18-26 and then got a wife and kids and trapped.

really? because that's a safe and practical job for a 13 yr old. if that's the case why not let 9 or 10 yr olds be welders or factory workers too.

who signs their work contract and ensures that they're competent enough to agree to do the job. what if they don't show up for work or want out claiming ignorance.