I tried the anti-violence argument thing tonight

[Icymudpuppy]

About a week ago, somebody posted a youtube with Steven Molyneaux talking about how instead of arguing information, we should try to present the personal violence argument.

Tonight, I went to the first tea-party rally in my community. We had both liberals and conservatives there. I already know that my local conservatives are a lost cause of neocon warmongers, so I thought I'd strike up a conversation with one of the Libs.

He was a big supporter of the EPA, and I said I wasn't. I went through Steve's argument about how I fully support his decision to support the EPA and would never think of initiating violence against him for it and all that. I then asked if he would afford me the same and he said yes. I then asked him if he supports alternative energy and he said yes. I then told him that I run my truck on Vegetable oil. He agreed that was great. I then told him that the EPA has declared that it is a violation of their regulations to use any non-standardized fuel in a motor vehicle and that I could be fined, and if I don't pay the fines, I could be arrested and jailed. Did he agree that that was violence? Yes, he said. Did he think he had the personal ability to arrest and jail me. No, he said. I told him that do you think that it is justified that we have authorized a federal agency to perform that task. He answered "Yes" we have collectively given that authority. He then said that he didn't agree with my NAP philosophy of Liberty.

My first attempt to use a new argument. I thought I was doing so well. But I'm convinced that people believe in violence, force, and big government. This was my final attempt to get involved locally. I officially give up.

I wrote this letter to the organizer...


I thought I'd come to see what our local tea party organization is all about.

I was not surprised, but I remain disappointed to find that the people of Lewis County don't want small government. They just want a big federal government that supports and violently enforces their pet issues or their pet agencies.

I wish there was still a place on this planet where a man could live free and without fear that some government agent would break down his door and kill his family if he wasn't participating in some program he didn't agree with.

Farewell.

-Jack (aka icymudpuppy)

I'm not sure why I even come to this forum anymore. It's so depressing to see that even as our organization makes noise and gets attention, that we haven't actually stopped any wars. We haven't closed any agencies, we haven't kicked the feds out of any local jurisdictions, and we haven't killed any taxes.

I'm so sick of it all. Somebody tell me something encouraging. Not just attempts, but actually successes. Rand Paul in office is just an attempt until he gets some meaningful legislation passed or kills or repeals some freedom killing legislation . So is Glen Bradley, Justin Amash, etc. I sometimes just want to put my head in the sand and give up and hope and pray that my family doesn't get purged in the inevitable political cleansing that will probably happen sometime in the next few decades.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I'm not sure why I even come to this forum anymore. It's so depressing to see that even as our organization makes noise and gets attention, that we haven't actually stopped any wars. We haven't closed any agencies, we haven't kicked the feds out of any local jurisdictions, and we haven't killed any taxes.

I'm so sick of it all. Somebody tell me something encouraging. Not just attempts, but actually successes. Rand Paul in office is just an attempt until he gets some meaningful legislation passed or kills or repeals some freedom killing legislation . So is Glen Bradley, Justin Amash, etc. I sometimes just want to put my head in the sand and give up and hope and pray that my family doesn't get purged in the inevitable political cleansing that will probably happen sometime in the next few decades.

1. Convince a majority
2. Breed a majority
3. Geographically organize a majority
4. Kill the majority
5. Do nothing

I am open for suggestions...

[Chester Copperpot]

YOu gotta just keep on keeping on..

Im sure everybody else feels the same way.. I know I have at times..

Everybody needs some down time to re-charge their batteries..

[low preference guy]

I'm so sick of it all. Somebody tell me something encouraging.

If he knew it was violence but supported it anyway, then he is a piece of trash. I think people like us are going to be in a minority for a longggggg time. The only thing we can do is organize better and use the internet to find peers and find an efficient way to effect change. The only thing I have seen that might work is the Free State project. We are very few, but our numbers are big enough to dominate an entire state. We need to become more passionate and to inspire others to actually take over some place. Otherwise, we'll forever live among thugs stealing from us and trying to kill us.

[McBell]

Stop being so impatient.

[Icymudpuppy]

If he knew it was violence but supported it anyway, then he is a piece of trash. I think people like us are going to be in a minority for a longggggg time. The only thing we can do is organize better and use the internet to find peers and find an efficient way to effect change. The only thing I have seen that might work is the Free State project. We are very few, but our numbers our big enough to dominate an entire state. We need to become more passionate and to inspire others to actually take over some place. Otherwise, we'll be living among thugs stealing from us and trying to kill us forever.

That's just it. All but two people I know of locally support violence. Those two people are the other two dedicated Ron Paul'ers I know. The rest are a lost cause on both sides of the aisle.

I love the FSP idea. Unfortunately, I'm married. I'd happily move to NH, or WY and give it a try if I didn't have a family that is content to put their heads in the sand.

[low preference guy]

Stop being so impatient.

I'm not sure that is the right thing to do. If you live in a city of thugs, and are trying to convince other to not rub you, maybe being patient in trying to convince them that stealing is wrong is not the best thing to do. Maybe it's a good idea to try to think of something else to live in a better society, especially when it is about to hit the fun.

[AGRP]

I already know that my local conservatives are a lost cause of neocon warmongers, so I thought I'd strike up a conversation with one of the Libs.

Wrong in that assumption. I used to be a flaming neocon warmonger.

Try speaking to a younger person as it's harder to teach an old dog new tricks.

Try this: Top 10 Ways to Convert a Neocon Into a Libertarian (http://www.thenorthwestreport.com/top-10-ways-to-convert-a-neocon-into-a-libertarian/)

[Icymudpuppy]

Stop being so impatient.

I've been part of the liberty movement since 2001. I know that's a short time for some, but for me that's 1/3 of my life and I've only seen things get worse. At least the really old timers saw an end to the Vietnam war and maybe considered that a victory. I'm trying to think of any victory for liberty in my entire life, and I'm coming up blank.

[low preference guy]

I love the FSP idea. Unfortunately, I'm married. I'd happily move to NH, or WY and give it a try if I didn't have a family that is content to put their heads in the sand.

I'm not saying the FSP exactly is the solution. Maybe something similar. I just don't know, but we need to think outside the box. Trying to convince idiots might not work.

[Fox McCloud]

Ask him how someone can delegate a right that they do not have--I've yet to see a rational response to this question.

[heavenlyboy34]

If you're looking for in-system type victories, they're few and far between (and not very significant). That's how the system was designed-to protect the elites from dissent that would remove their authority. Poll numbers are showing encouraging trends (like this (http://www.gallup.com/poll/1633/Iraq.aspx)), criticism of the FED is becoming more mainstream, and the war pigs' gravy train doesn't seem to be going as fast as it has been in recent years. Listening to the popular reich-wing shows, it's mostly the really wacko, neocon types who are itching for a new war in Lybia (AFAIK). Hope this is of some consolation to you. :)

[malkusm]

Your alternative to the political process is to hope that it goes away or gets better without your cooperation. Keep in mind that the probability of that occurring is minuscule.

I sleep well at night knowing that I'm fighting for a worthy cause. I would probably not sleep so well if I took the alternative.

[Icymudpuppy]

Wrong in that assumption. I used to be a flaming neocon warmonger.

Try speaking to a younger person as it's harder to teach an old dog new tricks.

I have tried. I even bring the strength of personal experience about war as an Iraq vet, but they would rather believe Bush than believe me when I tell them the injustice and gross evils I saw there. Oh sure, they're quick to tell me thank you when they find out I'm a vet, but they sing and dance and hum with their fingers in their ears when I tell them the truth about war.

[Icymudpuppy]

Ask him how someone can delegate a right that they do not have--I've yet to see a rational response to this question.

I did. He said we gave a collective consent to the police forces to initiate violence.

[low preference guy]

Somebody tell me something encouraging.

Maybe the internet will effect radical transformation in society. It has done some good things. For example, the Ron Paul movement wouldn't be nearly as strong without the internet. It might revolutionize education and make teachers worthless. See the video below. It's about a MIT graduate who creates youtube lessons, and his ideas are already radically changing some classrooms in California.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM95HHI4gLk

If the state loses control over education brainwashing, things might become a lot better. But it's unpredictable when it will happen.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

I have tried. I even bring the strength of personal experience about war as an Iraq vet, but they would rather believe Bush than believe me when I tell them the injustice and gross evils I saw there. Oh sure, they're quick to tell me thank you when they find out I'm a vet, but they sing and dance and hum with their fingers in their ears when I tell them the truth about war.


Don't give up man. Ron Paul's been at this his whole life and we're still here. It's going to take a lot, but we CAN.

[low preference guy]

Somebody tell me something encouraging.

http://people-press.org/reports/images/711-18.png

Link (http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=1920)

Also:

http://people-press.org/reports/images/711-17.png

[Aldanga]

Don't give up man. Ron Paul's been at this his whole life and we're still here. It's going to take a lot, but we CAN.
Yes we can! :p

[heavenlyboy34]

Your alternative to the political process is to hope that it goes away or gets better without your cooperation. Keep in mind that the probability of that occurring is minuscule.

I sleep well at night knowing that I'm fighting for a worthy cause. I would probably not sleep so well if I took the alternative.

Not at all. Withdrawing consent is an important step in delegitimizing the regime and ending one's destructive relationship with it. This is not the same as just hoping it goes away. There are loads of out of system things to be done. Education, forming counter-regime groups (such as commerce co-ops, alternative currencies, and so on), public speaking, etc. I myself sleep better at night knowing that I bear no responsibility for the existence or perpetuation of the regime. The State is in its death throes, and I am proud to be helping it die. :cool: (one of my big projects is translating important literature into Russian to help foment a worldwide anti-State movement, btw)

[Icymudpuppy]

The State is in its death throes, and I am proud to be helping it die. :cool:

I wish I believed you, but I think the State is just metamorphosing from a maggot that is limited by localities, into a Fly that will span the globe.

[BarryDonegan]

You rarely change anyone's mind by arguing against them. You usually change their mind be reframing the issue and causing them to change their mind without having to use the same terminology.

[Wesker1982]

I did. He said we gave a collective consent to the police forces to initiate violence.

How did you respond to this reply? It is a pretty easy argument to debunk but it won't matter if he is emotionally attached to it.

I have felt exactly like you do, I often still do. I have to realize that it doesn't make sense to get upset because you can't change one person's mind. You go into these discussions knowing people have been indoctrinated since childhood, you can't expect to undo 15, 20, or 30+ years etc. of indoctrination in 15 minutes.

[AGRP]

I have tried. I even bring the strength of personal experience about war as an Iraq vet, but they would rather believe Bush than believe me when I tell them the injustice and gross evils I saw there. Oh sure, they're quick to tell me thank you when they find out I'm a vet, but they sing and dance and hum with their fingers in their ears when I tell them the truth about war.

I updated that post to include this link (http://www.thenorthwestreport.com/top-10-ways-to-convert-a-neocon-into-a-libertarian/).

Like I said, I'm a former hardcore neocon. I would have changed my views if someone presented me many of the points in the link. Right now, as far as wars you need to ask if they know the truth behind the wars. Tell them, for example, that WE are responsible for what we're fighting (ie do your research on what we did to provoke them or even what we did to prop up dictators such as Saddam).

They can't put their fingers in their ears on everything! :)

[Inkblots]

I've been part of the liberty movement since 2001. I know that's a short time for some, but for me that's 1/3 of my life and I've only seen things get worse. At least the really old timers saw an end to the Vietnam war and maybe considered that a victory. I'm trying to think of any victory for liberty in my entire life, and I'm coming up blank.

Buck up, friend. Liberty has made huge strides within your lifetime. As recently as the '70s, the idea of centrally planning the economy through wage and price controls was a mainstream, moderate position. No one saw anything particularly unusual about outright government ownership of industry or complete structural regulation of entire industries such as energy, telecommunications, and air transportation.

In the decades since, we've seen sweeping, though incomplete, deregulation, wide awareness of the foolishness of all types of price controls, welfare reform, and many other reforms that a supporter of Liberty in the early '70s would scarce have imagined possible.

Today, the goalposts have moved so much that even people on the left think the government ownership of car companies and banks after the crash was ridiculous and abusive. And yes, the Federal Reserve and the Federal government continue to manipulate the economy, but they're forced to do so in more difficult and subtle ways than at any point in the the previous generation, precisely because the public will never support price controls and understands that the Fed causes inflation - the openly politically motivated double-digit price inflation that was seen as acceptable in the Nixon years today would spark revolt.

Add to all this the disintermediation of news and information flow thanks to the Internet and modern IT, the removal of traditional establishment media gatekeepers and authorized 'leakers' as the only source for information about what our government is doing, and hope swells still more. Every abuse, every blunder, every malfeasance, every hypocrisy and illogical action of our government and leaders is being brought to light as they lose control of information, and with it, control of people. The leading indicators are extremely positive. There's a reason polling figures show trust and support for practically all our leaders and all institutions of government at all-time lows. With full information available to the culture at large, even those not paying attention catch some element of the skepticism surging through the zeitgeist; the days of blithe trust in the efficiency and efficacy of government are over for good.

In short, if you can't see any progress or cause for optimism, you're deliberately closing your eyes to reality. The challenges that remain are immense, yes. Our leaders continue flaunt the rule of law shamelessly, yes. But that which was done in darkness is being seen in the light. The Overton window has shifted enormously in the past 4 decades and continues to shift.

Take heart, friend. I can't guarantee the ship will turn in time to miss the iceberg. But I can absolutely guarantee that the ship is turning.

[Icymudpuppy]

How did you respond to this reply? It is a pretty easy argument to debunk but it won't matter if he is emotionally attached to it.

I told the blank faced man listening in on us that it is hopeless arguing with someone who believes that violence can be delegated and that somehow makes it okay, and I left.

[VegasPatriot]

I'm not sure why I even come to this forum anymore. It's so depressing to see that even as our organization makes noise and gets attention, that we haven't actually stopped any wars. We haven't closed any agencies, we haven't kicked the feds out of any local jurisdictions, and we haven't killed any taxes.

I'm so sick of it all. Somebody tell me something encouraging. Not just attempts, but actually successes. Rand Paul in office is just an attempt until he gets some meaningful legislation passed or kills or repeals some freedom killing legislation . So is Glen Bradley, Justin Amash, etc. I sometimes just want to put my head in the sand and give up and hope and pray that my family doesn't get purged in the inevitable political cleansing that will probably happen sometime in the next few decades.
I know exactly how you feel... I've been there more than a few times. Especially after the 2008 campaign... then I got involved with Oath Keepers and got right back in the grove... for awhile. It's hard to continue sometimes when people you think are on your side, bash you for your efforts (ex. RP supporters saying "F" all police and military they are ALL part of the problem). But when it comes down to it... I know that if all the decent people in this movement abandon the fight... no one will be left. Take some time off, recharge your batteries and keep fighting the good fight. Thanks for being here Jack

[Wesker1982]

Good job. There is no sense in debating a sociopath.

[low preference guy]

Good job. There is no sense in debating a sociopath.

Agree. If that doesn't make the guy at least rethink his position, he isn't worth your time.

[Icymudpuppy]

I updated that post to include this link (http://www.thenorthwestreport.com/top-10-ways-to-convert-a-neocon-into-a-libertarian/).

Like I said, I'm a former hardcore neocon. I would have changed my views if someone presented me many of the points in the link. Right now, as far as wars you need to ask if they know the truth behind the wars. Tell them, for example, that WE are responsible for what we're fighting (ie do your research on what we did to provoke them or even what we did to prop up dictators such as Saddam).

They can't put their fingers in their ears on everything! :)

Trust me, I know the history of our involvement in the middle east better than anyone I know in real life. History and Facts mean nothing to these people. All I get is. Patriot Act GOOD!, Fight them there, not here!, Bush kept us Safe!, etc.

[AGRP]

Trust me, I know the history of our involvement in the middle east better than anyone I know in real life. History and Facts mean nothing to these people. All I get is. Patriot Act GOOD!, Fight them there, not here!, Bush kept us Safe!, etc.

Yeah. But, like someone said. Dont waste your time if they're stubborn. The best you can do is improve your debating skills.

Or you can get with like minded people and agree with everyone you meet which isn't much fun either.

[mczerone]

I'm right there with you lately. Disparagement all over the place, to the point of questioning the basics of liberty or just giving up and putting my head in the sand.

And now I've half-written (and deleted) three posts trying to come up with some encouraging, hang-in-there points, but they all sound hollow. Basically just remember that there's no point getting down about things out of you control. You can't change everyone's mind, and we're still underdogs by many orders of magnitude.

Some ideas: find a group activity you like doing, and get some other liberty cohorts to join you. Maybe a bowling or sports team. Maybe a band. Maybe you start a traditional small business, but with a liberty sub-tone. Surround yourself with those who support you, whether they agree with you or not - and remember to support others the same way. In short "be the change you wish to see in the world."

Have you read Brown's "How I found freedom in an unfree world"?

[low preference guy]

The State is in its death throes, and I am proud to be helping it die.

So you're not paying your taxes? Thanks for not doing it!

[belian78]

I've been part of the liberty movement since 2001. I know that's a short time for some, but for me that's 1/3 of my life and I've only seen things get worse. At least the really old timers saw an end to the Vietnam war and maybe considered that a victory. I'm trying to think of any victory for liberty in my entire life, and I'm coming up blank.

I haven't read any farther than this so someone might have said this already, but just wanted to comment on this.

First, I completely understand how you feel here. I've had my moments, like I'm sure most of us have. I've only been participating since 01 myself, but I paid attention much longer than that. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the successes you mentioned in your original post.

While not earthshattering by any means, Ron's success in getting the idea if liberty into the public eye last election season coupled with the liberty candidates that have been elected recently is amazing. I mean, who would have thought 5 years ago that a random member of an internet forum would be inspired to run for office and win?

It does seem so daunting sometimes, just this evening I had a moment thinking about it all. But your post helped me step back and remember what we've done. So thank you for that. :D

[Mahkato]

Liberty has a high learning curve, and there is a lot of government propaganda out there (public schools, media, etc.) that they need to overcome.

It takes multiple exposures to liberty (or multiple exposures to the government infringing on their liberty) for things to click.

One at a time. One at a time.

[Inkblots]

I'm right there with you lately. Disparagement all over the place, to the point of questioning the basics of liberty or just giving up and putting my head in the sand.

Geez, what's with all the Negative Nancies around here? I mean, I only cut my earlier post short because it was getting on the long side. Here's another great recent development: Second amendment rights have made huge strides recovering their nadir a few decades ago. The recent incorporation of the Second Amendment against the states is a huge deal for Liberty, and was the work of decades.

I think you young guys (and gals) just aren't familiar with how bad things really were back in the 70s. With a little bit of historical context, you'd see that we really are making a difference, and what's more, our momentum is building!

For Heaven's sake, now isn't the time to sit around feeling sorry for yourself, or making self-fulfilling prophesies about how no one will listen to your arguments! Defeatism is just a form of laziness, guys. And if you absolutely must indulge in melancholic musings, at least wait until December 2012 to start ;)

[newbitech]

the only thing that is going to encourage you is to take a large step back and see the big picture. This forum wasn't here back in 2001, and neither was youtube =)

The tiny dots....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6b70TUbdfs

[mczerone]

Geez, what's with all the Negative Nancies around here? I mean, I only cut my earlier post short because it was getting on the long side. Here's another great recent development: Second amendment rights have made huge strides recovering their nadir a few decades ago. The recent incorporation of the Second Amendment against the states is a huge deal for Liberty, and was the work of decades.

I think you young guys (and gals) just aren't familiar with how bad things really were back in the 70s. With a little bit of historical context, you'd see that we really are making a difference, and what's more, our momentum is building!

For Heaven's sake, now isn't the time to sit around feeling sorry for yourself, or making self-fulfilling prophesies about how no one will listen to your arguments! Defeatism is just a form of laziness, guys. And if you absolutely must indulge in melancholic musings, at least wait until December 2012 to start ;)

Maybe it's our growth that has intensified the stupidity focused at us - we're resonating with more people, for good and bad.

And as for "defeatism", I was more at a point where I questioned the goals, at which point stalling makes sense to assess whether you really want to keep going that direction.

[heavenlyboy34]

So you're not paying your taxes? Thanks for not doing it!

Yep, we unemployed folks don't pay taxes. (btw, I didn't choose to be unemployed-it's only because the jobs simply aren't there) If I was employed, I'd dodge taxes in every way I could. :cool:

edit: well, technically I do pay taxes because inflation is a type of tax.

[Inkblots]

Maybe it's our growth that has intensified the stupidity focused at us - we're resonating with more people, for good and bad.

And as for "defeatism", I was more at a point where I questioned the goals, at which point stalling makes sense to assess whether you really want to keep going that direction.

Well, absolutely the movement is more prominent than at any other time in modern history. Just compare the number of appearances of Ron and Rand Paul on cable and broadcast news, and non-Liberty blogs and news sites now versus 2 years ago. Andrew Napolitano has his own TV show! Even Glenn Beck, of all people, is borrowing Ron's talking points. If heat produces light, in the media landscape the opposite is also true: light produces heat. As our ideas are more and more in the spotlight, friction and pushback from our opponents will only increase. The attention we're getting should be encouraging, not discouraging.

As to questioning our goals, look, I enjoy a bit of omphaloskepsis as much as the next fellow, but rest assured that the goals of advancing freedom and Constitutional government are the right fight to have, and what's more, in the long game, we're winning!

[heavenlyboy34]

the only thing that is going to encourage you is to take a large step back and see the big picture. This forum wasn't here back in 2001, and neither was youtube =)

The tiny dots....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6b70TUbdfs

hehe...classic! ^^

[hugolp]

Unfortunately, I'm married.

Hope your wife doesnt read the forums... :D

[Fredom101]

I'm very happy that you went out and stood your ground using the "against me" argument. (BTW it's Stefan Molyneux, not Steven). I totally empathize with where you are at. It can feel pretty lonely sometimes when you are standing in a pack of jackals trying to promote non-violence! I know, however, that we are on the right side, and the truth WILL rise to the top, even if it takes a really long time. The current overriding philosophy is collectivism, so we have a long way to go. But if we all just keep speaking the truth and have empathy for the people we are dealing with, we can get there. Remember, these neocons and liberals are NOT evil people. They are just stuck in the matrix. Trying to force them out does us no good.

Just keep on empathizing and trying to understand them. They ALL have the capability to understand the truth, as hard as that may seem sometimes. Explain it, just as you did, but do not condemn them for choosing the violent path, simply point it out- and go about living your life the best way you can- have fun, enjoy your relationships, make money, travel, and speak the truth when you can- but also give yourself a break sometimes.

[Fox McCloud]

I did. He said we gave a collective consent to the police forces to initiate violence.

I'm not sure he understands what delegating a right is, then; you can't give someone else the right to do something if you don't have the right yourself. That said, he won't accept this terminology, when push comes to shove, or will move on to wackier arguments.

[LibertyMage]

You are mistaken as to how this works. You are going about it the wrong way.

Start here: http://www.vcdl.org/new/realpolitics.htm

Then go here and find someone in your state that you can work with: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

[crazyfacedjenkins]

We need to brainwash kids before the state gets to them.

[aspiringconstitutionalist]

I also used to be a HARDCORE warmongering borderline-theocrat neoconservative. I yelled my throat out for George W. Bush in 2000 and 2004, and I worked my butt off for Rudy Giuliani For President for most of 2007. It was a very slow process of conversion, and even while my opinions were slowly changing, I didn't let on outwardly what was happening.

The kernel of liberty was planted in the summer of 2007, when local Ron Paul supporters organized a huge Fourth of July rally in my city. As I was driving to work, I saw these homemade signs along the road saying "No Big Government", "No To Taxes," "No Socialism," and all these things that I agreed with, and suddenly I saw "No Big Brother," "No More War", and all these things that I was supposed to not agree with, and finally, I saw a "Ron Paul R[EVOL]UTION" sign at the end. That was the first time it even occurred to me that the spy state and the wars were actually a form of big government, something I claimed to oppose.

This made me curious, so I went to RonPaulForum.com and later RonPaulForums.com and struck up debates with some of you people here. Even as you people demolished my neocon arguments and were actually persuading me, I kept acting like I wasn't being convinced, and argued even more fervently for neoconservatism. But progress was being made in my mind.

When you people raised all that money over the course of the week of Constitution Day, it made me respect you for your dedication to the original principles of the Constitution. Seeing your dedication to the Constitution made me want to become that dedicated to the Constitution. I slowly came around to Ron Paul's interpretation of the Constitution, but I still rationalized my support for neoconservatism by saying that supporting libertarian and constitutionalist candidates just wasn't realistic, and that I'd just have to support the most small-government candidate that "could actually win," (which I felt was Rudy Giuliani).

But I softened enough to give in and read Ron Paul's "A Foreign Policy of Freedom." I was so blown away when I read that book and saw how Ron Paul's predictions and warnings regarding foreign policy came true over and over again, and how, if only Congress had listened to him and the Constitution, so many of the foreign policy problems we've had over the years would have never happened. That made me firmly a non-interventionist (and even more firmly after I read "Dying to Win" by Robert Pape). I then donated to the Ron Paul 2008 campaign and declared myself a Ron Paul supporter.

Even if the person you're trying to persuade doesn't budge an inch, doesn't mean you're not making a difference. Some people take a lot of work to convince, and won't even outwardly reveal their inner changes until the very last second.

[acptulsa]

Oh, puppy. You were doing so well until right at the end. Then you tried to take too big a bite.

When you get to that moment, you have to leave it at, 'And do you think its right for the government to use force and legalized theft to prevent me from using vegetable oil in my diesel truck?' Leave it there. If they're capable of extrapolating that out, they will. If not, at least they will consider how dumb that 'approved motor fuels' law is. That alone will cause a little erosion.

Also, don't assume that just because they 'saved face' and 'didn't give you the satisfaction', that you failed. You don't know if the guy woke up in the middle of the night and said, 'Just damn!' or not.

Thirdly, yes. When you need to recharge your batteries, recharge your batteries.

'You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run...'--never expected to quote Kenny Rogers on this site

Know when to walk away. Preferably after flashing a little smile that says, 'I don't use alternative, renewable energy because the government you love says I can't. You know I'm right and I know this is going to haunt you. Just that one little adjustment and your technique (I'm assuming, since you need good technique to get as far as you did) may just be perfect.

[outspoken]

Keep you chin up and I encourage you to tap into your own spiritual side for true strength. Seek to understand the nature of human nature. The resistance that you speak of is inherent in virtually all human beings. It is the need for self preservation. Many will resist and even fight to preserve their own egoic self, i.e. sinful nature in religious terms. If you don't subscribe to religion I encourage you to read A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. If you do have a religion, I encourage you to delve into the psycho-spiritual side of it for strength. Many are Christian but few choose the path that Christ walked because they fail to grasp the full message. Best wishes and as long as your heart is in the right place you will be a force for change. If you heart is corrupted, then what is in your mind will have little impact on others. Patience my friend.

[Krugerrand]

I wish I believed you, but I think the State is just metamorphosing from a maggot that is limited by localities, into a Fly that will span the globe.

Whenever you get down in the dumps on our progress, check out the Glen Bradly pages:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?295-Glen-Bradley-Forum

[stuntman stoll]

That is the problem I saw right away with Stephan's argument. Most people think "violence" is fine when it's done by a democratic government and when they agree with the program. I think I have a better approach. Go strait to the philosophical base. Talk about slavery. Everyone thinks slavery is wrong. You can us that to dispel the virtues of democracy being that it was a majority that upheld slavery and the Jim Crow laws in this country. Also, you can use slavery vs freedom approach to show that there are three aspects of freedom (life liberty property) and extrapolate these ideas and make them relevant to the issues your are debating.

[jmdrake]

Stop being so impatient.

I agree.



Tonight, I went to the first tea-party rally in my community. We had both liberals and conservatives there. I already know that my local conservatives are a lost cause of neocon warmongers, so I thought I'd strike up a conversation with one of the Libs.


Where you live the liberals and neocons actually come together? That's great! That means there is a group of people who are willing to put aside their differences for something positive. So, what do these two sides agree on? I'm guessing it's something you agree on too. Start from a point of agreement and move from there.



He was a big supporter of the EPA, and I said I wasn't. I went through Steve's argument about how I fully support his decision to support the EPA and would never think of initiating violence against him for it and all that. I then asked if he would afford me the same and he said yes. I then asked him if he supports alternative energy and he said yes. I then told him that I run my truck on Vegetable oil. He agreed that was great. I then told him that the EPA has declared that it is a violation of their regulations to use any non-standardized fuel in a motor vehicle and that I could be fined, and if I don't pay the fines, I could be arrested and jailed. Did he agree that that was violence? Yes, he said. Did he think he had the personal ability to arrest and jail me. No, he said. I told him that do you think that it is justified that we have authorized a federal agency to perform that task. He answered "Yes" we have collectively given that authority. He then said that he didn't agree with my NAP philosophy of Liberty.


I wasn't aware of this position by the EPA. Apparently biodiesel is "ok" by them (even though making biodiesel itself is a process that requires using hazardous materials) but SVO isn't.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/renewablefuels/420f10009.htm

Pretty stupid position on the part of the EPA in my opinion. But you have to look at it from your liberal friend's point of view. He's position is that the EPA is really looking out for us and that they know what they are doing. So in his mind if the EPA says burning SVO isn't safe for the environment, maybe it's not safe for the environment. By burning something not safe for the environment and polluting the air he has to breath you are doing violence against him. Now before you jump on me, realize that I think that's a crock, but applying "the EPA are the good guys" logic it makes sense. So before you can convince him that isn't true you'll have to convince him of how scientifically unsound that particular stance by the EPA is.



My first attempt to use a new argument. I thought I was doing so well. But I'm convinced that people believe in violence, force, and big government. This was my final attempt to get involved locally. I officially give up.

I wrote this letter to the organizer...


If you're going to give up on an entire group because one person doesn't immediately see that his favorite government agency isn't what he thinks it is, then you need to step back and regroup. Few people are convinced to completely change their world view from a single argument no matter how good it is. I haven't watched the Stephen video in question, but if he gave you that impression then he did you a disservice.



I'm not sure why I even come to this forum anymore. It's so depressing to see that even as our organization makes noise and gets attention, that we haven't actually stopped any wars. We haven't closed any agencies, we haven't kicked the feds out of any local jurisdictions, and we haven't killed any taxes.

I'm so sick of it all. Somebody tell me something encouraging. Not just attempts, but actually successes. Rand Paul in office is just an attempt until he gets some meaningful legislation passed or kills or repeals some freedom killing legislation . So is Glen Bradley, Justin Amash, etc. I sometimes just want to put my head in the sand and give up and hope and pray that my family doesn't get purged in the inevitable political cleansing that will probably happen sometime in the next few decades.

Here in TN we've stopped some worse legislation from being passed. We also have expanded gun rights a bit. Thomas-in-KY has had some success also. And before Rand ran his "Take back Kentucky" organization killed a lot of bad bills. Things are bleak, but not as bad as you think. Patience grasshopper....

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

Some people just like violence man.

[rnestam]

He was a big supporter of the EPA, and I said I wasn't. I went through Steve's argument about how I fully support his decision to support the EPA and would never think of initiating violence against him for it and all that. I then asked if he would afford me the same and he said yes. I then asked him if he supports alternative energy and he said yes. I then told him that I run my truck on Vegetable oil. He agreed that was great. I then told him that the EPA has declared that it is a violation of their regulations to use any non-standardized fuel in a motor vehicle and that I could be fined, and if I don't pay the fines, I could be arrested and jailed. Did he agree that that was violence? Yes, he said. Did he think he had the personal ability to arrest and jail me. No, he said. I told him that do you think that it is justified that we have authorized a federal agency to perform that task. He answered "Yes" we have collectively given that authority. He then said that he didn't agree with my NAP philosophy of Liberty.


What a fantastic way of putting it...very glad I read this. Most of us get frustrated way to fast, looks like you are doing a great job of actually going farther to make sense to those we are trying to convince...don't give up bro.

[enjerth]

I could be arrested and jailed. Did he agree that that was violence? Yes, he said. Did he think he had the personal ability to arrest and jail me. No, he said. I told him that do you think that it is justified that we have authorized a federal agency to perform that task. He answered "Yes" we have collectively given that authority.

Should the government have authority that does not derive itself from the authority of the people? How can it be a government of the people if it has authority beyond that of the people who authorize that government? Such a government is based on tyranny, not on liberty and personal rights.

All government authority should be derived from the consent of the governed, which have no right to give consent to a government to do what they, personally, have no right to do themselves. Collective (government) rights are no greater than individual rights.

I suggest you add that to your arguments.

[eqcitizen]

Look around, i doubt very many of us were born libertarians...

The best lesson to learn from this whole ordeal is that people take time to change their mind. I was a neocon as well and i would have gone to the mat against anyone. In fact i debated a libertarian in college on the drug war using the standard arguments and went away unconvinced. Each person is different and in order to start to change their mind you have to plant a seed of doubt to create that chink in the armor. While that man that you were talking with outwardly disagreed with you, he has to come to grips that he advocated violence for something he didnt agree with. That is cognitively dissonant and either he will rationalize it some way or he will start to think about it your way.

Psychologically speaking, people rarely change their minds on topics they find important when presented with an argument against. The only way that mind is changed is in four ways. 1, they cannot deal with the logical implications of their own position and adopt a new one. 2, Someone whose opinion they respect and admire changes their opinion and then convinces the other. 3, Something else has changed in their life that warrants a change of mind (a death in the family, marriage, etc). 4, After they have changed one of their opinions then it may act like a domino effect changing the rest.

For example, i was a victim of #2. A very good friend of mine whose political leanings mirrored mine, told me about Ron Paul (this was in November of 2008) and his discovery of him. I started reading lewrockwell.com and that was it. Then after i started to see how the wars in the middle east were retarded it brought me around on everything else.

[TIMB0B]

Try this: Top 10 Ways to Convert a Neocon Into a Libertarian (http://www.thenorthwestreport.com/top-10-ways-to-convert-a-neocon-into-a-libertarian/)

:eek:

However, even more shocking, our Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, declared that the Pentagon was missing $2.3 Trillion on September 10, 2001, the day before 9/11.

So, whatever happened with that money?

[TIMB0B]

I did. He said we gave a collective consent to the police forces to initiate violence.

So he was okay with the Rodney King beating?

[TIMB0B]

Many are Christian but few choose the path that Christ walked because they fail to grasp the full message.

Could you elaborate more on this?

[acptulsa]

Could you elaborate more on this?

Oh goodness, here we go again. Elaborate as you will but please start a new thread to do it in.

For this thread's purposes: If he means few Christians are as good as they should be at turning the other cheek, that much is relevant.

[steph3n]

I've been part of the liberty movement since 2001. I know that's a short time for some, but for me that's 1/3 of my life and I've only seen things get worse. At least the really old timers saw an end to the Vietnam war and maybe considered that a victory. I'm trying to think of any victory for liberty in my entire life, and I'm coming up blank.

I am so busy with work I don't have time to think about what's happening with liberty. not meaning to make light of it but I do things on a small scale person to person as I talk to them I spread the message of liberty. I have small victories in convincing family and friends in liberty matters. It's taken us a century to be co-opted and brainwashed, it may take another to reverse it!

[Romulus]

Many support violence on all sorts of levels, and are not ashamed about it. Its depressing, but its the flaw of human nature we have to deal with...

[hazek]

About a week ago, somebody posted a youtube with Steven Molyneaux talking about how instead of arguing information, we should try to present the personal violence argument.

Tonight, I went to the first tea-party rally in my community. We had both liberals and conservatives there. I already know that my local conservatives are a lost cause of neocon warmongers, so I thought I'd strike up a conversation with one of the Libs.

He was a big supporter of the EPA, and I said I wasn't. I went through Steve's argument about how I fully support his decision to support the EPA and would never think of initiating violence against him for it and all that. I then asked if he would afford me the same and he said yes. I then asked him if he supports alternative energy and he said yes. I then told him that I run my truck on Vegetable oil. He agreed that was great. I then told him that the EPA has declared that it is a violation of their regulations to use any non-standardized fuel in a motor vehicle and that I could be fined, and if I don't pay the fines, I could be arrested and jailed. Did he agree that that was violence? Yes, he said. Did he think he had the personal ability to arrest and jail me. No, he said. I told him that do you think that it is justified that we have authorized a federal agency to perform that task. He answered "Yes" we have collectively given that authority. He then said that he didn't agree with my NAP philosophy of Liberty.

My first attempt to use a new argument. I thought I was doing so well. But I'm convinced that people believe in violence, force, and big government. This was my final attempt to get involved locally. I officially give up.

Well I don't know if anyone posted this already because I really don't have the time to read every single post across 6 pages but you failed with your argument. The second he said "He answered "Yes" we have collectively given that authority." you should have called his bullshit and told him that what he is actually saying is that he supports someone else pointing a gun at you and force you to comply with his views.

Don't blame your failed attempt to win an argument on a bad argument if it was the debater's fault who didn't even make the correct argument.


I'm not sure why I even come to this forum anymore. It's so depressing to see that even as our organization makes noise and gets attention, that we haven't actually stopped any wars. We haven't closed any agencies, we haven't kicked the feds out of any local jurisdictions, and we haven't killed any taxes.

I'm so sick of it all. Somebody tell me something encouraging. Not just attempts, but actually successes. Rand Paul in office is just an attempt until he gets some meaningful legislation passed or kills or repeals some freedom killing legislation . So is Glen Bradley, Justin Amash, etc. I sometimes just want to put my head in the sand and give up and hope and pray that my family doesn't get purged in the inevitable political cleansing that will probably happen sometime in the next few decades.

Ah don't pretend you don't know why you're coming back. It's an addiction which I share with you. Try not to get too wound up about stupid people and just move on to someone else who might be willing to listen.

[nayjevin]

'How I Found Freedom In an Unfree World' seconded.

Never allow your personal worth or happiness to be attached to the success of changing another person's mind. - paraphrased

[jmdrake]

:eek:
So, whatever happened with that money?

Nobody knows. Cynthia McKinney attempted to find out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RvLL--vSsA

[Sentient Void]

I hope this helps. This is how I approach the situation. Pay attention to his last comment.

We are winning. You can/t convince those who have dug in their heels. But it's not them we are after.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLS-npemQYQ

[Vessol]

People love bringing up the SOCIAL CONTRACT whenever you bring up the violence of society.

What do I do then?

I ask them "When did I sign this so called contract?",

they always give something similar to "Well, it's implied"

I then say "Ok, so I can buy a new car, drive it to your driveway, leave it there and leave the whole bill. You have to pay it off regularly, otherwise I'll send my buddies to kidnap you and put you in a cell I made in my basement. You broke an implied contract"

They usually then go "Well, it's different than that. People on a national scale endorse it. If you don't like it, then leave it!"

[Fox McCloud]

I hope this helps. This is how I approach the situation. Pay attention to his last comment.

We are winning. You can/t convince those who have dug in their heels. But it's not them we are after.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLS-npemQYQ

Is this from "Thank you for smoking"?

[Vessol]

Is this from "Thank you for smoking"?

Yup. Awesome movie.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY3V0JJqnqo&feature=player_embedded

[Romulus]

People love bringing up the SOCIAL CONTRACT whenever you bring up the violence of society.

What do I do then?

I ask them "When did I sign this so called contract?",

they always give something similar to "Well, it's implied"

I then say "Ok, so I can buy a new car, drive it to your driveway, leave it there and leave the whole bill. You have to pay it off regularly, otherwise I'll send my buddies to kidnap you and put you in a cell I made in my basement. You broke an implied contract"

They usually then go "Well, it's different than that. People on a national scale endorse it. If you don't like it, then leave it!"

America - love it or leave it man!

[Krugerrand]

People love bringing up the SOCIAL CONTRACT whenever you bring up the violence of society.

What do I do then?

I ask them "When did I sign this so called contract?",

they always give something similar to "Well, it's implied"

I then say "Ok, so I can buy a new car, drive it to your driveway, leave it there and leave the whole bill. You have to pay it off regularly, otherwise I'll send my buddies to kidnap you and put you in a cell I made in my basement. You broke an implied contract"

They usually then go "Well, it's different than that. People on a national scale endorse it. If you don't like it, then leave it!"

I think to some degree social contract is real - even if invalid. You either like society or you don't. You can work to change society or tolerate society. If the changes you work for don't happen, you can reject society and endure the consequences, or leave that society.

However, social contract is not "legitimacy." Slavery is a great example of that. Some slaves accepted it and made the best of it. Some worked to change it and lost. Some worked to escape that social contract and found new places to live. No matter - even though it was "social contract" is was still illegitimate.

There are a number of threads around now about "are we winning" etc. I think the reality of social contract is important to this. In the grand scheme of things I think we are losing. We will all have different points to which we can fight the forces opposing liberty. We will all have different points at which we will flee forces opposing liberty. However, it's important to put into place the good steps that we are taking so that as the US falls apart those who fight can find their allies and those who flee have somewhere to go.

[low preference guy]

I think to some degree social contract is real - even if invalid.

So where do you sign it? LOL!

[dannno]

you can reject society and endure the consequences, or leave that society.


No you can't.. Try and leave the farm and they will try and tax you in your new country, plus you're on a new farm now.

[Krugerrand]

So where do you sign it? LOL!


No you can't.. Try and leave the farm and they will try and tax you in your new country, plus you're on a new farm now.

I find the expression "social contract" to be a statement of social reality not a legitimate contract. Did I miss a possibility? You can try and fix what is broken ... but what happens if you are not successful? You can try and fight it - at which point again, you can win or lose. Or, you can try and flee. What other social realities exist?

[Philhelm]

So where do you sign it? LOL!

Good question, but even in the legal system, not all contracts have to be written. Verbal contracts are legally binding (albeit harder to enforce); in addition, there are implied contracts (for instance, showing a cashier a candy bar and leaving the money on the counter without any verbal exchange). I suppose by merely continuing to participate in society that an argument for an implied agreement to the social contract can be made.

[low preference guy]

I find the expression "social contract" to be a statement of social reality not a legitimate contract.

Do you also call what's going on in Libya "Kinetic military action (http://hotair.com/archives/2011/03/24/wh-this-isnt-a-war-its-a-kinetic-military-action/)" instead of war?

[low preference guy]

I suppose by merely continuing to participate in society that an argument for an implied agreement to the social contract can be made.

No, that argument can't be made. Existing in one particular place imposes no obligations form me to anyone else. Plus, all contracts, even the implied ones, can only be made by individuals. Society doesn't have a brain nor does it act. Only individuals do.

[Krugerrand]

Good question, but even in the legal system, not all contracts have to be written. Verbal contracts are legally binding (albeit harder to enforce); in addition, there are implied contracts (for instance, showing a cashier a candy bar and leaving the money on the counter without any verbal exchange). I suppose by merely continuing to participate in society that an argument for an implied agreement to the social contract can be made.

See ... I won't go along with "implied agreement." That implies legitimacy.

For anybody to rely on "social contract" as a basis of an argument is a terrible rationale. That's the same as saying it's right because that's the way it is. Point to slavery, or feudalism or any other clear violation of liberty and it should be evident that social contract is not a valid rational for an argument.

[Krugerrand]

Do you also call what's going on in Libya "Kinetic military action (http://hotair.com/archives/2011/03/24/wh-this-isnt-a-war-its-a-kinetic-military-action/)" instead of war?

No, but if I order "City Chicken" in a restaurant I expect to receive pork.

[Todd]

you can't give someone else the right to do something if you don't have the right yourself.

there it is.

[Sentient Void]

I suppose by merely continuing to participate in society that an argument for an implied agreement to the social contract can be made.

You, sir, need to read some Lysander Spooner (No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority, to be exact.)

[Wesker1982]

there it is.

That + it is important to ask them if they themselves are willing to resort to violence in whatever certain situation is being discussed. If they aren't willing or do not think it is legitimate to use force in situation X, they will have a hard time explaining why it is ok for someone to do it on their behalf.



They usually then go "Well, it's different than that. People on a national scale endorse it. If you don't like it, then leave it!"

Call them out on their ad hominem. Explain to them that they are not actually addressing your argument at all.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2MxiQR4CIQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNj0VhK19QU

Also if they are willing send them a link/copy of No Treason by Lysander Spooner.

[MaxPower]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAjDmw6IrFg

[AuH20]

I think the social contract is applicable in the case of unprovoked murder. You essentially nullify your rights for taking another's.

[Krugerrand]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAjDmw6IrFg

That's such a great show. Jean Arthur and James Stewart make such a good pair in a movie. "You Can't Take It With You" is another winner starring the two of them. (Of course, it doesn't hurt that JA is easy on the eyes.)

[LibForestPaul]

Just because he said yes, does not mean he was not disturbed by what you said.
Just because he does not understand, does not mean others will not.
Just because you may have stumbled on your first attempt, does not mean your other attempts will not be cleaner and stronger.
Just remember, you only need to convince one of the remnants.

[Eric21ND]

I also used to be a HARDCORE warmongering borderline-theocrat neoconservative. I yelled my throat out for George W. Bush in 2000 and 2004, and I worked my butt off for Rudy Giuliani For President for most of 2007. It was a very slow process of conversion, and even while my opinions were slowly changing, I didn't let on outwardly what was happening.

The kernel of liberty was planted in the summer of 2007, when local Ron Paul supporters organized a huge Fourth of July rally in my city. As I was driving to work, I saw these homemade signs along the road saying "No Big Government", "No To Taxes," "No Socialism," and all these things that I agreed with, and suddenly I saw "No Big Brother," "No More War", and all these things that I was supposed to not agree with, and finally, I saw a "Ron Paul R[EVOL]UTION" sign at the end. That was the first time it even occurred to me that the spy state and the wars were actually a form of big government, something I claimed to oppose.

This made me curious, so I went to RonPaulForum.com and later RonPaulForums.com and struck up debates with some of you people here. Even as you people demolished my neocon arguments and were actually persuading me, I kept acting like I wasn't being convinced, and argued even more fervently for neoconservatism. But progress was being made in my mind.

When you people raised all that money over the course of the week of Constitution Day, it made me respect you for your dedication to the original principles of the Constitution. Seeing your dedication to the Constitution made me want to become that dedicated to the Constitution. I slowly came around to Ron Paul's interpretation of the Constitution, but I still rationalized my support for neoconservatism by saying that supporting libertarian and constitutionalist candidates just wasn't realistic, and that I'd just have to support the most small-government candidate that "could actually win," (which I felt was Rudy Giuliani).

But I softened enough to give in and read Ron Paul's "A Foreign Policy of Freedom." I was so blown away when I read that book and saw how Ron Paul's predictions and warnings regarding foreign policy came true over and over again, and how, if only Congress had listened to him and the Constitution, so many of the foreign policy problems we've had over the years would have never happened. That made me firmly a non-interventionist (and even more firmly after I read "Dying to Win" by Robert Pape). I then donated to the Ron Paul 2008 campaign and declared myself a Ron Paul supporter.

Even if the person you're trying to persuade doesn't budge an inch, doesn't mean you're not making a difference. Some people take a lot of work to convince, and won't even outwardly reveal their inner changes until the very last second.

Wow if we can persuade a Giuliani supporter, we can convince anybody! Giuliani is the very antithesis of RP in every way possible. I love these personal accounts of how people came to supporting RP. I'm very curious to know how you felt and thought during the dust up between Giuliani and Dr. Paul in the SC debate in may of that year? What do you think of that exchange in hindsight? I know more me and many others that galvanized our support for him. Afterwards, I literally said out loud, "That's my guy!"

[Eric21ND]

As for your disillusion, try to keep in mind you're only a messenger, your job is to present them with ideas they might not have ever heard before and a new way of looking at things. You're just planting seeds in their mind, that in time may grow. Give them the tools to get to where you are, whether it be a book, article, video. You can only show them the door, but they themselves have to choose to walk through it.

[tremendoustie]

Try not to get disappointed so easily. People do not generally change their philosophy on the spot, it takes time.

But, as far as your technique goes, when using this kind of argument, you need to bring it home more. Ask, "Do you think it's morally right to threaten aggressive violence against me, despite the fact that you agree I've harmed nobody and nothing?"

When he spouts nonsense about "collective authority" say, "Are you saying that while it'd be wrong for you to use aggressive violence against me individually, if you get a big enough gang to join you, it magically becomes morally ok?

Ask who exactly 'gave' this authority, and how? Was it theirs to give in the first place?

[YumYum]

This is probably one of the most honest posts I have ever read on this forum. I personally have donated thousands of dollars to the Liberty movement and have handed out fliers and have gone door-to-door promoting Liberty. What has been the end result? We are considered a fringe group of loons that can't get no respect. But you know what? That is what keeps me coming back!!! : )

[malkusm]

Oh dear Lord, we've managed to turn another thread into debate over social contract theory.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

So you've tried anti-violence and it failed, time to get violent!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDifHxruZ0Y

[acptulsa]

I think the supposition was that, properly applied, the anti-violence argument can win any specific debate and be effective. I don't think anyone claimed that applying it to any subject would instantly convert anyone to a voluntaryist.

[Fredom101]

I think the supposition was that, properly applied, the anti-violence argument can win any specific debate and be effective. I don't think anyone claimed that applying it to any subject would instantly convert anyone to a voluntaryist.

I agree, it won't likely instantly convert anyone into a volunataryist. I like the anti-violence argument, as it brings everything to the personal realm, but it will put a lot of people on the defensive. They will twist and turn and then blame you for their emotional discomfort. So the important thing is to empathize with them instead of casting them off as another sheep.

[YumYum]

I agree, it won't likely instantly convert anyone into a volunataryist. I like the anti-violence argument, as it brings everything to the personal realm, but it will put a lot of people on the defensive. They will twist and turn and then blame you for their emotional discomfort. So the important thing is to empathize with them instead of casting them off as another sheep.

I agree with you 100%. One problem with using violence in America is that it will be squelched so fast the originators won't know what hit. My advice to all you bunker dwellers: give it up. You can't fight the U.S. military.

[acptulsa]

I agree with you 100%. One problem with using violence in America is that it will be squelched so fast the originators won't know what hit. My advice to all you bunker dwellers: give it up. You can't fight the U.S. military.

Whoa, that's kinda out of left field. 'The Violence Argument' is not advocating violence, but the opposite. It's questioning government's right to coerce us to finance its pet projects.