POLITICO: Ron Paul: Department of Education wants to 'indoctrinate' children [Archive]

muzzled dogg

03-23-2011, 02:35 PM

Ron Paul: Department of Education wants to 'indoctrinate' children

By ANDY BARR | 3/23/11 3:51 PM EDT Updated: 3/23/11 4:21 PM EDT

DES MOINES, Iowa — Ron Paul warned a group of home schooling advocates on Wednesday that officials at the Department of Education are trying to “indoctrinate” their children.

“They don’t educate our kids, they indoctrinate our kids,” the Texas congressman said of federal education efforts. “It’s a propaganda machine.”

Paul, who's considering a second White House bid in as many cycles, cast the many home schoolers in the crowd as something akin to a merry band of rebels against federal overreach. “What I’ve seen from you is an effort to counteract the propaganda machine."

Paul said the concerns expressed about children who are home schooled have been overblown and contended that the kids who really have a problem are those who grow up in the public system.

“In public education they’re intimidated to be conformists and individuals taught at home are very adapted to expressing what they believe,” he said.

Paul also credited home schoolers — many of whom, he conceded, supported his 2008 presidential campaign — for fostering an appreciation of the Constitution and the founding documents.

“The best thing that has come out of the home school movement is the respect you’re teaching about the rule of law and our Constitution,” he said.

Paul’s speech Wednesday came after a rally encouraging less government regulation of home schooling at the state capital that attracted roughly 1,000 on a cold and windy day in Des Moines.

Following his speech, the Texas congressman is meeting with Iowa Gov. Terry Branstad, who also spoke to the home school advocates.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51836.html#ixzz1HSPOEWIZ

Slutter McGee

03-23-2011, 02:57 PM

If only homeschoolers would start teaching evolution. Don't get me wrong. I support homeschooling 100%. But please start teaching it. Pretty please.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

low preference guy

03-23-2011, 03:00 PM

If only homeschoolers would start teaching evolution. Don't get me wrong. I support homeschooling 100%. But please start teaching it. Pretty please.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Why is it such a big deal? If somebody gets an overall good education, he can learn about evolution if he wants to. I think it's more important to teach logic and math well.

Kotin

03-23-2011, 03:08 PM

If only homeschoolers would start teaching evolution. Don't get me wrong. I support homeschooling 100%. But please start teaching it. Pretty please.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Let them teach what they want.. :roll eyes:

McBell

03-23-2011, 03:20 PM

R3volutionJedi

03-23-2011, 03:31 PM

The homeschoolers who teach creation are doing fine. I 100% support them making the choice to teach them intelligent design.

We may disagree on some things. I'm glad we agree though to 100% support homeschoolers rights tho!

R3volutionJedi

03-23-2011, 03:32 PM

If anyone finds RP's iowa capitol speech. post it. thanks

Slutter McGee

03-23-2011, 03:40 PM

Let them teach what they want.. :roll eyes:

Oh I intend to let them teach what they want. Even if it is creationism. But here in the Bible Belt of Texas, and as somebody who has been involved with the homeschooled heavy world of fencing, every homeschooler I ever met was absolutely convinced evolution was a complete satanic conspiracy.

It just drives me nuts. Doesn't mean I don't support somebodies right to teach creationism to their children. But damn, it really does drive me crazy.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Churchill2004

03-23-2011, 03:46 PM

If you parlay this criticism right- don't get it tagged with conspiratorial-sounding headlines about indoctrination (of course there's only so much control one has over that)- and you hit on a criticism of public schools that has much broader support than just the home/private schoolers. In my experience, the broad critique of Prussian-style schooling (not using that term of course) as being anti-individualistic and oppressive can find broad support and is non-threatening. There are some potential pitfalls, but if massaged the right way this message gets very little push-back and a lot of head-nodding agreement.

And of course that's in addition to the support of the home school crowd, who are very active in GOP primaries, particularly in more conservative states like Iowa.

Sola_Fide

03-23-2011, 04:03 PM

Homeschool families, especially Christian homeschool families, are extremely politically active. The homeschool vote is a treasure trove because it can unlock a lot of activism.

What Ron said is pure red meat to Christian homeschoolers. The federal goverment IS trying to indoctrinate our children into evolution. Evolution IS a lie. Evolution IS the prerequisite to anti-individualist statist thinking.

Kudos to Ron Paul FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH. No one in the country can slice through and speak the truth like he can on such a large platform.

Sola_Fide

03-23-2011, 04:06 PM

If only homeschoolers would start teaching evolution. Don't get me wrong. I support homeschooling 100%. But please start teaching it. Pretty please.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

http://www.gogaminggiant.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/facepalm.jpg

AZKing

03-23-2011, 04:30 PM

The federal goverment IS trying to indoctrinate our children into evolution.

And telling kids that some man in the sky will damn them to a burning hole for eternity is child abuse.

What's your point?

And anyway, kids are usually taught about the 5 primary religions and their beliefs (creationism, reincarnation, pillars of Islam, whatever) when studying world history in middle and high school.

low preference guy

03-23-2011, 04:32 PM

Evolution IS the prerequisite to anti-individualist statist thinking.

*double facepalm*

Sola_Fide

03-23-2011, 04:34 PM

And telling kids that some man in the sky will damn them to a burning hole for eternity is child abuse.

What's your point?

If the federal government indocrinated children into ANY religious viewpoint, then anyone who loves liberty should be against it.

Evolution is a religious viewpoint, and the federal government uses evolution to socialize children and take away their individuality.

FOR THE LIFE OF ME I will never understand why people here who claim to love liberty would want the government involved in education. I mean...I am at a loss for words for how uninfomed a "libertarian" has to be to defend the federal government's indoctrination of our youth.....

sailingaway

03-23-2011, 04:35 PM

Ron is absolutely right, at least here in California, but it isn't pc to say so. They want to 'socialize' them, and 'open their minds to' (whatever they want the kids to believe), not 'indoctrinate them'.

steph3n

03-23-2011, 04:36 PM

I was homeschooled, my parents bought me some classic editions of Darwin's books. Interesting :)

Guitarzan

03-23-2011, 04:37 PM

Evolution IS a lie. Evolution IS the prerequisite to anti-individualist statist thinking.

Allāhu Akbar

Sola_Fide

03-23-2011, 04:41 PM

RM918

03-23-2011, 04:41 PM

Are we really going to have another goddamned indignant religion vs. militant atheism squabble? Wish you guys'd just go fellate eachother in private and leave everyone else out of it.

Parents should be able to homeschool their kids however they'd like, the kids can decide for themselves what's true or not down the line. Maybe you'd end up having some parents teach their kids stuff you wouldn't agree with, but it'd be far, far better than what public schools are churning out these days.

low preference guy

03-23-2011, 04:41 PM

FOR THE LIFE OF ME I will never understand why people here who claim to love liberty would want the government involved in education. I mean...I am at a loss for words for how uninfomed a "libertarian" has to be to defend the federal government's indoctrination of our youth.....

could you please quote and name the poster of this thread who advocated any federal government involvement in education? i can't find him.

AZKing

03-23-2011, 04:46 PM

Evolution is a religious viewpoint, and the federal government uses evolution to socialize children and take away their individuality.

That's like saying gravity is a religious viewpoint. It's just a biological process and hence it's taught in biology class.

I don't want the government to be involved in education; I don't even like education mandates. But until government gets out of education, I expect them to teach science in science class. Homeschoolers can learn whatever they want as far as I'm concerned.

And anyway, the federal government isn't responsible for teaching evolution. Many states weren't teaching it for years and some still don't.

Guitarzan

03-23-2011, 04:48 PM

I take this issue as just yet another issue where Ron Paul is right, and many of his supporters are wrong.

I wish Ron's supporters weren't so brainwashed, but the State has done well to indocrinate all of you like little socialized sheep, so I understand how difficult it is to remove the scales from your eyes.

No one is advocating gov't led education here...

I take issue with your absolutist views on your particular religion...and your tendency to discount anyone who has differing views as being "brainwashed".

Evolution is a lie, you say? Prove it. Evolution is the prerequisite to statist thinking? That's laughable.

IMO, organized religion seems to produce some mighty collectivist, superficial, non-thinking statist drones.

muzzled dogg

03-23-2011, 04:57 PM

Check out that futurama on creation v evolution

Churchill2004

03-23-2011, 05:02 PM

I take this issue as just yet another issue where Ron Paul is right, and many of his supporters are wrong.

You mean people like you who raise the issue, when he clearly hates talking about it in public and thinks it has no place in the political debate?

MRoCkEd

03-23-2011, 05:05 PM

The worst part of the indoctrination is in history. FDR, Lincoln, etc were all great. You usually hear that in private school too.

R3volutionJedi

03-23-2011, 05:30 PM

Check out that futurama on creation v evolution

Right. They are reliable.

Feeding the Abscess

03-23-2011, 05:48 PM

The worst part of the indoctrination is in history. FDR, Lincoln, etc were all great. You usually hear that in private school too.

Highlighting this post. Couldn't agree more.

Sola_Fide

03-23-2011, 05:58 PM

That's like saying gravity is a religious viewpoint. It's just a biological process and hence it's taught in biology class.

LoL. Wow. Evolution is just a "biological process"?

No, a biological process can be OBSERVED. An animal becoming another animal has never been observed. Evolution is a religion. It is a presumption that is imposed on the evidence.

I really don't expect you to understand this since you are a true believer in the religion of evolution. You are so deluded that you think "gravity" (which can be observed) is on the same level as "evolution" (which cannot be observed).

Its demonstrative of how pervasive this religion of man is. It's sad....

And anyway, the federal government isn't responsible for teaching evolution. Many states weren't teaching it for years and some still don't.

What world do you live in where you think Creationism can be taught in government schools? LoL. Why do you think there is a Christian homeschool movement if Creationism was taught in schools?

Christians are right on the homeschool issue. Ron Paul is right on the homeschool issue. I don't want to get into a huge evolution debate, but I will say that if atheists will not stand with the Christian homeschool movement against the State then you are worthless slaves.... and you can quote me on that.

low preference guy

03-23-2011, 06:11 PM

I don't want to get into a huge evolution debate, but I will say that if atheists will not stand with the Christian homeschool movement against the State then you are worthless slaves.... and you can quote me on that.

Your quotes are worthless and they are often outright lies. This is one example:

FOR THE LIFE OF ME I will never understand why people here who claim to love liberty would want the government involved in education. I mean...I am at a loss for words for how uninfomed a "libertarian" has to be to defend the federal government's indoctrination of our youth.....

So let me ask you again:

could you please quote and name the poster of this thread who advocated any federal government involvement in education? i can't find him.

Sola_Fide

03-23-2011, 06:22 PM

could you please quote and name the poster of this thread who advocated any federal government involvement in education? i can't find him.

Stop being such a turd.

I wasn't referring so much to people in this thread (which is why I said "people here")...I was talking about the many threads on this subject. There have been more than a few here who have no problem with state-education and you know I'm right.

mczerone

03-23-2011, 06:30 PM

Evolution is a religious viewpoint...

The Big Bang Theory is speculation that is built on faith and untestable, and could thus qualify for a "religious viewpoint". So could string theory.

But evolution, sir, is not a religious viewpoint. Please discontinue making stupid claims about things of which you have no clue. Thank You.

sailingaway

03-23-2011, 06:37 PM

In Ca people homeschool because the public schools suck, not primarily for religious reasons.

So Ca is trying to say you have to essentially have a teacher's certificate to teach your child now, I have read....

trey4sports

03-23-2011, 06:38 PM

Good sound-bites from Ron. This should resonate with the GOP base

Sola_Fide

03-23-2011, 06:42 PM

The Big Bang Theory is speculation that is built on faith and untestable, and could thus qualify for a "religious viewpoint". So could string theory.

But evolution, sir, is not a religious viewpoint. Please discontinue making stupid claims about things of which you have no clue. Thank You.

The first part of your post started to make sense, but then it all went downhill from there.

ApathyCured

03-23-2011, 07:35 PM

Watch the following pretty interesting how public Ed started in Prussia, made its way to the US then to Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpq4r_YW94A

low preference guy

03-23-2011, 07:58 PM

Sola_Fide

03-23-2011, 08:02 PM

Hahaha!

Where's my neg rep LPG?!?!

jrskblx125

03-23-2011, 08:44 PM

tell me if im wrong: when bacteria becomes "immune" so to speak to a certain biocide, isnt that actually evolving? and isnt there some sort of biological evidence of 24 hour flies evolving?

jkr

03-23-2011, 10:07 PM

amy31416

03-23-2011, 10:14 PM

Sola_Fide

03-23-2011, 10:52 PM

tell me if im wrong: when bacteria becomes "immune" so to speak to a certain biocide, isnt that actually evolving? and isnt there some sort of biological evidence of 24 hour flies evolving?

Yes, you're wrong. What you described is micro-evolution or change within species, something that creationists agree with.

What has never been observed or demonstrated is macro-evolution or change from one kind of animal to another. Bacteria don't turn into trees or dogs. God created each living thing after its own kind.

nate895

03-23-2011, 11:01 PM

tell me if im wrong: when bacteria becomes "immune" so to speak to a certain biocide, isnt that actually evolving? and isnt there some sort of biological evidence of 24 hour flies evolving?

When bacteria become immune to a biocide, it is because they lose information to create the substance that the biocide attaches too, not because they are "evolving" into multicellular lifeforms. The question is whether simple lifeforms become more complex lifeforms, not whether or not gene frequency changes over time, or whether there is a mutation that, for instance, gives a person a third arm or takes away some organ. The biological evolutionist has to prove that a single cell creature can become a multi-celled creature, and then the multi-celled creature can eventually develop a heart, lung, brain, etc., and eventually that they can make the leap from animal instinct to human rationality. There is no evidence that information can be increased in such a manner. The closest we've come to seeing that is getting an extra set of information about something the creature already has.

When the evolutionist can get a creature to develop an organ, for instance, then they'd have actually proved something. Short of that, the whole thing is really a just-so story. They say science has proven all life evolved from a common ancestor which came about billions of years ago. We say that God created as revealed to us in the Holy Bible from someone who was actually there (namely, God).

Sola_Fide

03-23-2011, 11:24 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U23KnA1fdGI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

AZKing

03-23-2011, 11:51 PM

They say science has proven all life evolved from a common ancestor which came about billions of years ago. We say that God created as revealed to us in the Holy Bible from someone who was actually there (namely, God).

Evolution is compatible with religion, even if fundamentalists don't want to accept that. Evolution does NOT describe to origin of the universe.

I dare say that you would be saying the same thing about Allah and the Qur'an if you had been born in Pakistan. I dare say that you would be saying the same thing about Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu had you been born in India.

Anyway, I'm done with the argument. The whole discussion started with saying that evolution is the prerequisite to anti-individualist statist thinking, which I strongly disagree with. Kids are taught to be anti-individualist and statist long before reaching high school biology. Most high school biology classes barely even scratch the surface of evolution and usually just cover it for a couple of weeks.

Ranger29860

03-24-2011, 12:03 AM

When bacteria become immune to a biocide, it is because they lose information to create the substance that the biocide attaches too, not because they are "evolving" into multicellular lifeforms. The question is whether simple lifeforms become more complex lifeforms, not whether or not gene frequency changes over time, or whether there is a mutation that, for instance, gives a person a third arm or takes away some organ. The biological evolutionist has to prove that a single cell creature can become a multi-celled creature, and then the multi-celled creature can eventually develop a heart, lung, brain, etc., and eventually that they can make the leap from animal instinct to human rationality. There is no evidence that information can be increased in such a manner. The closest we've come to seeing that is getting an extra set of information about something the creature already has.

When the evolutionist can get a creature to develop an organ, for instance, then they'd have actually proved something. Short of that, the whole thing is really a just-so story. They say science has proven all life evolved from a common ancestor which came about billions of years ago. We say that God created as revealed to us in the Holy Bible from someone who was actually there (namely, God).

I'm going to try to stay out of the GOD part of this argument cause trying to argue against faith is pointless.

BUT when it comes to evolution you cant simply stick your fingers in your ears and yell nanana cant hear you!

Single cell organism have been shown to collect together in order to form multi-cell organism's. There are a few cases of this being published. I'll source one for you.

Martin E. Boraas, Dianne B. Seale, Joseph E. Boxhorn (1998). Phagotrophy by a flagellate selects for colonial prey: A possible origin of multicellularity Evolutionary Ecology, 12 (2), 153-164 DOI: 10.1023/A:1006527528063

And here is the link to buy the paper if you want.

https://springerlink3.metapress.com/content/q239365007h43465/resource-secured/?target=fulltext.pdf&sid=fofou0ezkbspis55olk5ahmp&sh=www.springerlink.com

Micro evolution and Macro evolution are THE SAME THING its just a matter of time scale. Simply saying that we haven't observed something changing in our very very brief existence on this planet is proof it doesn't exist is just wrong.If you want proof of macro evolution look at dogs. And before you say thats micro please think about it for more than two seconds. If we would not have intervened would dogs be anywhere close to what they are today? How can you look at a shitzu and then a wolf and still think thats micro.

The fossil records clearly show the evolution of many animals including humans.Now i'm sure the response i'm going to get is "Show me!" well ill tell you why people who live in reality get so mad and frustrated at people who denies crap that is right in front of them.Most people who have any real knowledge of evolutionary biology are sick and tired of people not looking it up themselves and wanting everything spoon fed to them.

Darwin made it very clear that all that needs to happen in order to prove evolution completely wrong is any mechanism that without all its parts cannot function in any way.If you can show this you will become one of the richest and most famous people in science.

If anyone wants to actually talk to me seriously about how evolution works and why it is the best explanation on why we have so many types of creatures then please feel free to PM me.

Dave Aiello

03-24-2011, 12:17 AM

The federal goverment IS trying to indoctrinate our children into evolution. Evolution IS a lie. Evolution IS the prerequisite to anti-individualist statist thinking.

Kudos to Ron Paul FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH. No one in the country can slice through and speak the truth like he can on such a large platform.

oh. my.

I am embarassed to call my self a Ron Paul supporter if these ^ are the kind of people I'm involved with. The SCIENTIFIC theory of evolution is firmly rooted in scientific fact. It is supported through countless scientific observations, specifically the fossil record, DNA analysis, and carbon dating.

We can even observe evolution by artificial selection in our own lives. Farmers selectively breed animals for specific traits to the point where they become unable to even breed with their naturally-occurring genetic cousins. Now, imagine the genetic variation which could be achieved via the same phenomena as a result of natural forces over literally millions of years.

Scientific fact should be taught, and yes, should be "indoctrinated". Gravitational theory should be indoctrinated. The theory of relativity should be indoctrinated. The theory of quantum mechanics should be indoctrinated. The theory of molecular bonds should be indoctrinated. In fact, all of these scientific theories ARE taught.

What should NOT be taught is something which is A) unfalsifiable, B) something for which there is no evidence to support, and/or C) Something which is an unsupported hypothesis. I think we can all agree that such subjects are not grounded in fact, and therefore should not be indoctrinated. If we did teach things which met this criteria, then the argument is being made that the 'stork hypothesis of birth' has a place in a college classroom. ________ (name your religion, fairy tale, greek myth) has all of the above characteristics.

A scientific theory is as close to a sure-thing we can achieve without literally observing a phenomena. Any SINGLE piece of evidence which contradicts a scientific theory will render the theory false, and it would then be considered a falsehood. thousands upon thousands of pieces of evidence support the theory of evolution; not once has one piece of evidence been able to contradict it.

I cringe every time I hear Ron speak of evolution as "just a theory". I have a BS in biology and have done graduate work as a lab scientist. I assume that you have no such background. Though I cannot blame you for your ignorance in such matters, I can blame you for your disgusting pretentiousness.

PS - You mentioned that belief in evolution leads one to adhering to a statist political philosophy. I'd like to ask that you support this statement with objective evidence.

PSS - Evolution is not compatible with christianity. The old testament asserts that the earth is approx. 5,000 years old, and asserts that human life was put on this earth as-is. Both of these assertions have been 100% falsified, via experiments which have been reproduced thousands of times via the scientific method.

PSSS - When I was very young, I was INDOCTRINATED with catholicism, to the extent that I was encouraged tirelessly by my parents to make my catholic confirmation at 15 years old. I always practiced skepticism, but it was not until I became educated and furthered my ability to think independently that I realized the true ludicracy of all religious belief, past and present.

Ranger29860

03-24-2011, 12:30 AM

PSS - Evolution is not compatible with christianity. The old testament asserts that the earth is approx. 5,000 years old, and asserts that human life was put on this earth as-is. Both of these assertions have been 100% falsified, via experiments which have been reproduced thousands of times via the scientific method.

I support this statement but just get ready for the fireworks getting ready to head your way :) ...I'm gonna go grab some popcorn.

Dave Aiello

03-24-2011, 12:48 AM

I support this statement but just get ready for the fireworks getting ready to head your way :) ...I'm gonna go grab some popcorn.

LOL. I just hope aquabuddha was put in his place for making those terrifyingly uninformed statements.

Ranger29860

03-24-2011, 01:01 AM

LOL. I just hope aquabuddah was put in his place for making those terrifyingly uninformed statements.

I support homeschooling but i just cannot stand the ignorance in this country when it comes to evolution. When i was still a Christian the one thing that turned me around and made me really look at what i was being taught was a incident in a science class. I made the very bad mistake of asking a science teacher why evolution was fact when it was clearly not (opinion at time) and that god created everything thing in 6 days. Everyone including the teacher laughed at me. Now i thought it was cruel at the time but it really made me look hard at myself and why they would laugh. That incident led me to research evolution and biology and if i could i wold go back to that teacher and thank her for laughing. I started off looking for ways to prove everyone wrong but just came up on proof that i was wrong.

I hate to be mean or cruel towards peoples beliefs but i honestly think the only way for people to really learn is to ridicule them to the point where they will go look up facts. Even if it is just to try to prove me wrong. Believing something on faith alone is not a value that should be looked at like its a good thing.

The theory of evolution has led to many important breakthroughs in science and i hate to see people spit all over it. Saying i have the bible and its from god so evolution cant be true isn't a valid argument. When people say things like macro evolution hasn't happened but micro has it just show their ignorance on the subject.

Dave Aiello

03-24-2011, 01:08 AM

Believing something on faith alone is not a value that should be looked at like its a good thing.

This reminds me of something I read from Bertrand Russell, and have since referred to the statement as one of my favorite quotes. "To feel the "need" to have a religion is to act with cowardice and delusion, not with dignity"

In regard to homeschooling, I am for it, however only under the conditions where non-governmental, private-sector verification agencies can exist to verify the extent and quality of the education received. Certain agencies which gain a reputation for strict educational requirements would be looked upon by higher education institutions in order to assess home-schooled students.

Ranger29860

03-24-2011, 01:15 AM

This reminds me of something I read from Bertrand Russell, and have since referred to the statement as one of my favorite quotes. "To feel the "need" to have a religion is to act with cowardice and delusion, not with dignity"

Thats probably where i originally read it.

BTW if you want something that will make you want to puke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWDRz5cSziQ
This almost what i was taught in my early year when i attended private school.

Dave Aiello

03-24-2011, 01:23 AM

Thats probably where i originally read it.

BTW if you want something that will make you want to puke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWDRz5cSziQ
This almost what i was taught in my early year when i attended private school.

Egh. This video makes me mad. In order to refute something, don't you need to first know what you are trying to refute? lol.

For those being educated through this thread: One modern animal (like apes) gradually transforming into another animal is not evolution. The theory of evolution supports the fact that MODERN **** sapiens and MODERN primates share a COMMON ANCESTOR, which existed appx. 6 million years ago. Yes, fossils exist of such a species, and many intermediary species in the evolutionary branch which leads to modern **** sapiens. One should think of modern apes as our cousins, not our great-great grandparents. Further, we can consider all modern living organisms as our cousins, some being genetically separated longer ago than others.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat02.html.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae

But anyway, back to the topic at hand.. Just thought I'd shed some light to those who are proponents of faith-based homeschooling.

Ranger29860

03-24-2011, 01:38 AM

Egh. This video makes me mad. In order to refute something, don't you need to first know what you are trying to refute? lol.

For those being educated through this thread: One modern animal (like apes) gradually transforming into another animal is not evolution. The theory of evolution states that MODERN **** sapiens and MODERN primates share a COMMON ANCESTOR, which existed appx. 6 million years ago. Yes, fossils exist of such a species. One should think of modern apes as our cousins, not our great-great grandparents. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat02.html.

I am at least happy to see no one use the "Why are apes still around argument"

The thread has gotten sightly derailed so i'm going to try to tie this in.
Homeschooling is nice and i support anyone that wants to do it. Their just has to be a set standard on what is taught. I was not home schooled but did attend a few years of private baptist school. And if anything is similar to what was taught there then its a great disservice to the children. When it came to teaching evolution it was not about the facts about evolution it was all about why evolution is wrong. Now i don't care if a parents personal belief wont let them accept evolution. It is child abuse to indoctrinate children to believe proven science is just wrong. It cripples children (IMO). If the parent wants the teach a child about their religious beliefs i'm all for it but the child needs to be informed of all the facts. Denying children knowledge is what i'm afraid happens in some cases.

amy31416

03-24-2011, 04:00 AM

I am at least happy to see no one use the "Why are apes still around argument"

The thread has gotten sightly derailed so i'm going to try to tie this in.
Homeschooling is nice and i support anyone that wants to do it. Their just has to be a set standard on what is taught. I was not home schooled but did attend a few years of private baptist school. And if anything is similar to what was taught there then its a great disservice to the children. When it came to teaching evolution it was not about the facts about evolution it was all about why evolution is wrong. Now i don't care if a parents personal belief wont let them accept evolution. It is child abuse to indoctrinate children to believe proven science is just wrong. It cripples children (IMO). If the parent wants the teach a child about their religious beliefs i'm all for it but the child needs to be informed of all the facts. Denying children knowledge is what i'm afraid happens in some cases.

Noooooooo! Don't get the gov't involved! I have a degree in science and want to teach it in a completely nontraditional manner, and having the gov't set a "standard" would likely mean that I couldn't try what I want to try--which is to teach physics "backwards." (Represent college-level quantum physics visually to children PRIOR to teaching classical physics, which I think closes the mind to the "weirdness" that is the quantum world.) I've read up extensively on some of the great teachers/physicists like Richard Feynman, Boltzmann, et al in order to come up with this hypothesis. Don't restrict my "right" to use my kids as guinea pigs!

Don't worry, I'll be teaching evolution as well.

Ranger29860

03-24-2011, 04:11 AM

Noooooooo! Don't get the gov't involved! I have a degree in science and want to teach it in a completely nontraditional manner, and having the gov't set a "standard" would likely mean that I couldn't try what I want to try--which is to teach physics "backwards." (Represent college-level quantum physics visually to children PRIOR to teaching classical physics, which I think closes the mind to the "weirdness" that is the quantum world.) I've read up extensively on some of the great teachers/physicists like Richard Feynman, Boltzmann, et al in order to come up with this hypothesis. Don't restrict my "right" to use my kids as guinea pigs!

Don't worry, I'll be teaching evolution as well.

lol perhaps i should elaborate.(my examples are gonna be a little wacky since i don't know what current standards are.) When i say standards i'm talking along the lines of at grade 5 the child needs to have a basic knowledge on lets say u.s. history. This doesn't mean the child has to use a certain book or it has to be taught a certain way. I'm just saying they need to be able to show progress on par with public schools. I'm not a teacher so i don't know the ins and outs of homeschooling i just want to see maybe a small test or something to make sure the parents( and i don't mean you in particular) are not just letting there kids stay home and do nothing.

The situation i just don't want to see is complete 1-12 learning being missed because the parents decided to let the kids do whatever. I know this would be a very small case of people but it would happen.

As for the quantum physics part would that cause an issue with colleges? I am currently enrolled in college and am taking advance physics classes and i can not see currently how i could learn physics backwards. I'm actually struggling a little with the conceptual stuff any suggestions?

I am open to all sorts of suggestions and ideas since this is not my area of expertise. What would you like to see at say a k-8 levels?

amy31416

03-24-2011, 04:36 AM

As for the quantum physics part would that cause an issue with colleges? I am currently enrolled in college and am taking advance physics classes and i can not see currently how i could learn physics backwards. I'm actually struggling a little with the conceptual stuff any suggestions?

I am open to all sorts of suggestions and ideas since this is not my area of expertise. What would you like to see at say a k-8 levels?

In regards to my hypothesis about teaching physics "backwards," it's already mostly too late for you, old timer. :p My notion is to introduce the concepts, images and notions of it when a child's brain is very malleable--depending on the kid, that could be up to about age 10-12 to teach the weirdness that is quantum physics (at least conceptually--what math could be taught depends on the kid.)

Why?

Because the quantum world most closely resembles magic, art and flights of fancy--it requires giant leaps of instinct into things that we can only imagine (or calculate), not things we can see, because we don't have the senses for it. Over time, we become skeptical and hard, and abandon magic, whimsy and my hypothesis is that the brain start to reject things like quantum leaps--so even if we're smart enough to calculate it like monkeys on a test to get the grade--the brain is still rejecting it. I realized this while studying the phenomenon of fluorescence and other concepts we're taught in advanced science. Consider that most solid substances are not solid--they're whirling bits of subatomic particles that we have evolved to not be able to detect these things for obvious, practical reasons.

Classical physics is very useful for engineers and scientists for obvious reasons, but relatively speaking (pun intended), it is easy to grasp compared to quantum physics--why not teach the concepts of the quantum world when the mind is still very open in this "magical" phase, rather than rush into hard concepts like math, classical physics and chemistry where we're given a view of the world that is a "level up" from the underlying reality of quantum physics? Those things can be (and are) taught at a middle/high school level and continued into college--where we then, finally, start getting a taste of the quantum world--by which time most of our minds are closed and we just memorize the various concepts and the equations that go along with them without the visualization and ability to compose this world in our minds.

Re-direct the illogical, creative, imagination of a child who can see ghosts, wizards, santa, the tooth fairy, etc into the world of quantum physics--surely it won't work for every kid, but on those who it could? Who knows....I don't yet have a defined set of results that I'd like to see at particular grade levels, and don't think I would because it's highly individual as to where each child would, or could, take it.

Oh, and as far as advice for you--try meditation on a particular concept, and try to forget everything you've ever learned about science. I wouldn't recommend it, but many experimental scientists do drugs in order to attempt to re-create the brain's former pliability (no proof, just experience working/knowing many people who've studied graduate-level physics/biophysics.) This is strictly geared toward truly understanding the concepts, not toward passing a class or landing a good job designing engines. Read up on Feynman sometime too--especially his lectures.

Ranger29860

03-24-2011, 04:48 AM

I can see where your coming from about mind being shut later. One of the big hurdles for me like i said is the fact equations where pumped into me in calc and my first physics class that getting told not to think about equations and focus on relations and creativity when i comes to solving problems is a pain now.

acptulsa

03-24-2011, 04:52 AM

OrigSEOH

03-24-2011, 05:03 AM

Evolving systems are of intelligent design to me. The good book says we are god-like, when we develop a system we like it becomes a ongoing goal to improve it.

I found this passage by Mises very profound and has made me very curious of the Order of Things over the many years.

Human knowledge is conditioned by the power of
the human mind and by the extent of the sphere in
which objects evoke human sensations. Perhaps there
are in the universe things that our senses cannot perceive
and relations that our minds cannot comprehend.
There may also exist outside of the orbit we call the
universe other systems of things about which we cannot
learn anything because, for the time being, no traces
of their existence penetrate into our sphere in a way
that can modify our sensations. It may also be that
the regularity in the conjunction of natural phenomena
we are observing is not eternal but only passing, that
it prevails only in the present stage (which may last
millions of years) of the history of the universe and may
one day be replaced by another arrangement. - THEORY AND HISTORY, LUDWIG VON MlSES

amy31416

03-24-2011, 05:07 AM

That's brilliant.

They used to not try to teach foregn languages to kids at some short point in history (I remember it being referred to but can't say when that stupid attitude was in vogue) because they considered it too difficult for youngsters, then they discovered that kids who are still developing their 'first language' skills can develop skills in all manner languages at that age with relative ease.

Not everyone could teach such things to kids that young, and not every kid could fully absorb it. But if anyone's going to make sense of string theory, I believe it will be someone (just as you say) who doesn't necessarily have a Newtonian background.

The language example is a good comparison. Kids are naturally fearless, open-minded and undisciplined...teaching the hard lessons of life can come later (whether in science or other subjects). And not every kid would be a prime candidate, nor would a lot of teachers be equipped to attempt such a thing--but the status quo just gets more of the same.

Time for some new horizons.

Ranger29860

03-24-2011, 05:14 AM

Evolving systems are of intelligent design to me. The good book says we are god-like, when we develop a system we like it becomes a ongoing goal to improve it.

I found this passage by Mises very profound and has made me very curious of the Order of Things over the many years.

This kinda seems like the watchmaker argument to me.Granted its a much more creative version since you included our want to improve things we build so if we are god like then god must have a hand in evolution since we are made in his image. Kudos for coming up would a decent philosophical argument. Its a lot better than Evolution is a lie.

That Mises quote is cool.And its kinda creepy due to us not having any trace of the big bang viewable soon. So if we hadn't discovered red shift in time we would have had no chance to figure it out.

fatjohn

03-24-2011, 05:20 AM

The federal goverment IS trying to indoctrinate our children into evolution. .

No, the church and their followers are indoctrinating our children into intelligent design and god and whatnot, just like they indoctrinate them with santa claus. The difference is they get told santa claus isn't real at a certain time but they have to find it out for themselves about the bible, which for many takes a long time...

OrigSEOH

03-24-2011, 05:51 AM

So if we hadn't discovered red shift in time we would have had no chance to figure it out.

Not really trying to argue like a watchmaker...just stating my perception of things. K-12 is a indoctrination...on many levels. For the most part they seemingly what us to sign our name on government documents without a second thought.

So I'm wondering, what if Human's perception of time would not revolve around the Sun?

Ranger29860

03-24-2011, 06:06 AM

Not really trying to argue like a watchmaker...just stating my perception of things. K-12 is a indoctrination...on many levels. For the most part they seemingly what us to sign our name on government documents without a second thought.

So I'm wondering, what if Human's perception of time would not revolve around the Sun?

Would be kinda hard to guess since we really dont know anything else. If there wasnt a light source i have no clue. But if lets say the earth did something crazy like rotate randomly (ignoring the problems with speeding up would do to us.) i say we would evolve to mayby not sleep as much or maybe we dont sleep but just rest in place like some animals for small spurts. Time is tricky since its relative. As for the scientific applications i would say we would just learn everything like we did now since that would be the norm.

acptulsa

03-24-2011, 06:07 AM

...teaching the hard lessons of life can come later (whether in science or other subjects).

Thing is, a Newtonian grappling with String Theory is like a typewriter repairman trying to fix a computer. He or she just doesn't have the right tools.

Time for some new horizons.

But all we get from this government is new restrictions and new wars.

Slutter McGee

03-24-2011, 08:04 AM

Stop being such a turd.

I wasn't referring so much to people in this thread (which is why I said "people here")...I was talking about the many threads on this subject. There have been more than a few here who have no problem with state-education and you know I'm right.

I have often said that getting state governments out of education shouldn't be our primary goal. Getting the Federal government out should be our primary goal. That certainly doesn't mean that ideally I support state education. Simply that I recognize two things. Until we change the environment surrounding education, including the burden of over taxation, it will be impossible to get rid of public education. Until that environment can be changed, I would rather have public education controlled at the state government rather than the federal government.

This seems like common sense.

As far as my belief in evolution, I said very plainly that while it drives me nuts that it is not taught in most homeschooled families, I completely support their right to teach what they want...including creationism.

You tried to turn this thread into a debate when no debate was necessary.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

acptulsa

03-24-2011, 08:12 AM

Absolutely. When the Department of Education was created c. 1980, things started going downhill and have been going downhill ever since. Now we have No Child Left Behind, which also ensures that No Child Gets Ahead. Talk about a brain drain!

There was life before the ED, and people remember that.

Sola_Fide

03-24-2011, 08:20 AM

Sola_Fide

03-24-2011, 08:40 AM

LoL!

I got 3 neg reps in this thread alone:)

acptulsa

03-24-2011, 08:42 AM

Again, this is just yet another issue where Ron is right and many of his supporters are sadly wrong. The scales have just not fully fallen off yet...

Oh, as long as we are allowed to agree with your conclusions completely, but for completely different reasons, I expect it'll be all right in the end.

low preference guy

03-24-2011, 11:13 AM

Thing is, a Newtonian grappling with String Theory is like a typewriter repairman trying to fix a computer. He or she just doesn't have the right tools.

String theory is nonsense.

acptulsa

03-24-2011, 11:14 AM

String theory is nonsense.

Sorry. Wasn't trying to shake the foundations of your Celestial Sphere.

Guitarzan

03-24-2011, 11:23 AM

Reading about string theory gives me good vibrations.

acptulsa

03-24-2011, 11:24 AM

Reading about string theory gives me good vibrations.

You must be better at tuning those things than I am.

Working Poor

03-24-2011, 11:45 AM

mczerone

03-24-2011, 12:04 PM

The entire point of this thread was that Ron Paul made the excellent point that the federal government is currently indoctrinating our youth.

Either you agree with Dr. Paul or you don't.

I will say that since the goal of state-education is to socialize children and indoctrinate them with evolution, if you are a defender of evolution, you are complicit in the state's goals. You are a statist.

What I want to see is atheists who are consistent with libertarianism and will stand side by side Christian homeschoolers in the grand cause of Liberty. If atheists can't let go of their religious beliefs to argue against state-education (which is evolution and socialism only), then they are not consistent.

Again, this is just yet another issue where Ron is right and many of his supporters are sadly wrong. The scales have just not fully fallen off yet...

Sorry, gun-run schools are about more indoctrination than just evolution. It's about age-stratification, fawning over communist ideals, obedience, clock-punching training, restraining individuality, pushing students to a median education and uniform culture, and pushing popular opinion as fact.

In some areas people want to use the power of gun-run schools to indoctrinate the kids with ID, some areas want it to be evolution.

The doctrines being pushed don't matter one iota - the problem is the acceptance of the use of force in the indoctrination.

Also, one of "the state's goals" happens to be enforcing property rights (to an extent), so if I also support property rights, am I a statist? What about Roads? I support having roads owned by private companies, but I support people having roads, am I a statist? I support the teaching of mathematics, so does the state. Am I a statist?

PaulineDisciple

03-24-2011, 12:14 PM

If only homeschoolers would start teaching evolution. Don't get me wrong. I support homeschooling 100%. But please start teaching it. Pretty please.
Sincerely,
Slutter McGee
It helps to teach them logic and the scientific method first, then move on to Marxist propaganda and how it is used to dumb-down and brainwash the masses so they will accept whatever a scientific dictatorship wants to force down our throats. Doing this will prepare them for what they will discover about evolution.

I homeschool my children and I teach them more about evolutionary theory than an evolutionist would like me too. I expose them to ALL of the evidence, the evidence that Darwin and his associates had an axe to grind against the Christian faith, using their own words to prove that this is in fact the case. I expose them to the lies and fabrications that were made to try to “prove” evolution and the silence in the media and books on the subject when these lies are exposed, like Haeckles embryos and Piltdown man. I show them how evolutionists distort the facts by hand picking evidence and arrange it in a way that supports their philosophical beliefs. I show them how they hide their speculative assumptions that they use in their calculations so people cannot see how they have “doctored the books”.

I also show them the overwhelming evidence that support the Biblical creation model. Things like the concept of irreducible complexity, the various kinds of mutations and how these copying errors affect the offspring and how there has not been a single example of a mutation that has generated new and different genetic information. I teach them about animal classifications and how radical the difference is between birds, reptiles, amphibians etc. and that all the so-called links between these groups are laughable. I show them evidence that is rarely dealt with by evolutionists, like poly-strate trees that vertically pass through supposedly millions of years of layers in the geologic column. How formations like the Grand Canyon, with the almost perfectly level, knife edged layers demonstrate that it could not have been formed slowly since there were no signs of wind or water erosion.

Oh, I teach my children about evolution all right and then some, I could only wish that evolutionists would reciprocate the favor by doing the same.

PaulineDisciple

03-24-2011, 12:15 PM

PS

If you want to know about what I consider the most effective aspect of how the Marxists have destroyed this nation you need to read these books on the education system in this country
Deliberate Dumbing Down of America by Charlotte Iserbyt
You can find a free PDF of this book here
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/
http://www.americandeception.com
NEA Trojan Horse in American Education by Samuel Blumenfeld
You can find a free PDF of this book here
http://www.americandeception.com
Underground History in American Education by John Taylor Gatto
Read it for free here
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/
The Harsh Truth About Public Schools by Bruce Shortt
http://www.exodusmandate.org/art_the-harsh-truth-about-public-schools.htm

amy31416

03-24-2011, 01:41 PM

Personally, I think that those who demand a "creationism only" curriculum are short-sighted and lack faith in their faith. If God exists, and if God created everything--even a secular pursuit of knowledge will lead back to that inevitable conclusion. After all, we are only ever studying that which God made directly (the heavens and the earth)...if you believe in God, I'd think that you believe that to be true.

Be happy and be patient. And consider studying nature in that context--what is stopping you? If you believe that God wrote/inspired the bible--fine. But why neglect his even more vast body of work--all of nature?

I also don't have to believe every last thing that Ron Paul believes, even though I have immense respect for him. We are all unique individuals with a different set of experiences. This is a very superficial "debate."

low preference guy

03-24-2011, 01:43 PM

Oh, I teach my children about evolution all right and then some, I could only wish that evolutionists would reciprocate the favor by doing the same.

I don't get this. You are not doing other people a favor when you teach your children something. Shouldn't you teach your child what you think it's best for him regardless of what other people think?

PaulineDisciple

03-24-2011, 02:30 PM

I don't get this. You are not doing other people a favor when you teach your children something. Shouldn't you teach your child what you think it's best for him regardless of what other people think?

I do, I don't see how you interpreted what I said any differently, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm sure virtually all parents strive to teach their children what they think is best for them.

acptulsa

03-24-2011, 02:32 PM

I do, I don't see how you interpreted what I said any differently, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm sure virtually all parents strive to teach their children what they think is best for them.

I was about to say. I got the impression you teach 'all of the above'. Seems sufficient to me...

Dave Aiello

03-24-2011, 03:37 PM

Be happy and be patient. And consider studying nature in that context--what is stopping you? If you believe that God wrote/inspired the bible--fine. But why neglect his even more vast body of work--all of nature?

Amy, unfortunately, Nature and God are not compatible. If you understand nature with a modern scientific perspective, you will understand that human life could not have been pre-destined. We know this because we can observe and study the processes which led from the big bang to the organization of matter to the formation of celestial bodies and stars to the formation of galaxies to the formation of planets and solar systems to to beginning of life on our planet, to the naturally-influenced process of evolution, to eventually, modern **** sapiens.

There is no room for planning in evolution. There is no room for planning with regard to the formation of our planet, solar system, galaxy, etc. The only thing which science would admit could have POSSIBLY been planned for is the big bang itself. Even if this was the case, human life is just a by-product which came about by chance.

Further, the old testament pegs the earth as being 5,000 years old. in order to support this, Christians much proclaim that God planted fossils to "test our faith". Carbon-dating, however, can date fossils back millions of years. Did god have a stash of evolutionary-consistent fossils sitting in a jar and aging for million of years? Did he magically plant them exactly where they should lie in the sentiment just in case we advanced to the point to to discover them? Do you not see the ludicracy of christianity?

acptulsa

03-24-2011, 03:55 PM

Do you not see the ludicracy of christianity?

LOL She could debate you under the table on the subject, and you'd never even realize you've been preaching to the choir all along.

Let's please keep the thread on subject instead, shall we?

civusamericanus

03-24-2011, 04:05 PM

If anyone finds RP's iowa capitol speech. post it. thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udnyWp7Wz-Y

crhoades

03-24-2011, 06:58 PM

Hmmm. Iowa. Homeschoolers. Take that huckabee! Come to the doctor.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2011, 07:25 PM

Gah, major thread fail.

The whole point of homeschooling is to teach or bring to the forefront ideas that current polite society does not subscribe to.

That's the point Ron was making, which he is absolutely correct about, go research Horace Mann, "normal schools" and the history of mandatory public education in the United States.

The whole stinking mess from day one was designed "normalize" and "socialize" (mostly heathen Catholic immigrants from Ireland and Italy) children at the earliest possible age, to give them just enough instruction and indoctrination to toil in the mills and factories or, more importantly, pick up a rifle and kill for the state without question and without hestitation.

acptulsa

03-24-2011, 07:28 PM

The whole stinking mess from day one was designed "normalize" and "socialize" (mostly heathen Catholic immigrants from Ireland and Italy) children at the earliest possible age...

Don't go all textbook on me now, AF. The Indians deserve some props for enduring the worst of the lot.

brandon

03-24-2011, 08:07 PM

If only homeschoolers would start teaching evolution. Don't get me wrong. I support homeschooling 100%. But please start teaching it. Pretty please.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Evolution can't really be properly evaluated without first having a solid background in biology and chemistry. It's better suited for college students that can independently evaluate the merits of it, than being spoon fed it in high school and middle school. There's really no need for the layman to understand evolution anyway, because the only practical applications are in the field of medicine. And besides, there is plenty of opportunity for kids to self educate using the internet. They don't need their curriculum to be the end-all be-all of their education.

On another note, Ron Paul is the fucking man.

edit: didn't realize this thread was 9 pages and I was replying to a post on the first page.

Southron

03-24-2011, 08:16 PM

Thanks for posting that video. The crowd really enjoyed him putting down the U.N.

Homeschoolers are generally an informed group of people with some exceptions. I would like to think that Paul has a good chance with that crowd. The problems usually come with convincing those less informed people who don't pay attention to politics until Presidential elections.

I like how he talked about the need for a virtuous and moral society even more than respect for the law.

nayjevin

03-24-2011, 08:38 PM

I really like how Ron says in the video that things will not be perfect, but with freedom mistakes will be limited to a limited number of people - whereas when a government monopoly makes a mistake everyone suffers. He warns against replacing God with the idol of government, and references the Bible to do so. What a resounding message, and well tailored. He says, of course you teach values to your children, that's wonderful, but most important is the curiosity to learn, to instill the desire of the child to seek out information about how the world works. And he encourages using technology to aid in learning. My words here, obviously, but that's what I got from it.

Homeschooling is awesome. I think the most important thing for a homeschooling parent is to recognize that no matter how smart or knowledgeable they may be, there will be blind spots, or areas of limited knowledge. So it is therefore essential that other teachers are sought out, early on by parents, and later on by the student, to fill in those gaps.

Sola_Fide

03-25-2011, 12:46 AM

prmd142

03-25-2011, 02:22 AM

unfortunately, Nature and God are not compatible.

+1776

cheapseats

03-25-2011, 02:56 AM

Let them teach what they want.. :roll eyes:

Really? Truth be damned?

They teach whatever they want in Madrassas, too.

cheapseats

03-25-2011, 03:12 AM

If somebody gets an overall good education, he can learn about evolution if he wants to. I think it's more important to teach logic...

How would a person KNOW of a thing TO want to learn about it, but that s/he is EXPOSED to it?

Kinda seems like Believers are AFRAID their children will come to their OWN Beliefs, as by Logic.

cheapseats

03-25-2011, 03:17 AM

Homeschool families, especially Christian homeschool families, are extremely politically active. The homeschool vote is a treasure trove because it can unlock a lot of activism.

Pray tell, how does that square with SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE?

RENDERING UNTO CEASAR is another line I note Christians balk at towing.

What would Jesus do? Besides weep? ANGRILY, indeed FORCIBLY, oust Moneychangers from the temples.

Sola_Fide

03-25-2011, 03:34 AM

Really? Truth be damned?

They teach whatever they want in Madrassas, too.

So?

Sola_Fide

03-25-2011, 03:37 AM

How would a person KNOW of a thing TO want to learn about it, but that s/he is EXPOSED to it?

Kinda seems like Believers are AFRAID their children will come to their OWN Beliefs, as by Logic.

Good point. State-education never teaches the frauds and lapses of logic in the theory of evolution, so how can children not understand the errors if the state-education monopoly never exposes them to it?

Sola_Fide

03-25-2011, 03:42 AM

Pray tell, how does that square with SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE?

Homeschooling has little to do with the seperation of church and state. Read the letter to the Danbury baptists. Jefferson was assuring the Baptists that the state would never be able to coerce the church.

RENDERING UNTO CEASAR is another line I note Christians balk at towing.

That verse has nothing to do with submission to tyrants.

What would Jesus do? Besides weep? ANGRILY, indeed FORCIBLY, oust Moneychangers from the temples.

Yes, Jesus preached against theft. That is one reason the Federal Reserve must be abolished. Money-changers must be driven out and sound money must be restored. Sound money and honest weights are a Biblical idea.

Captain Shays

03-25-2011, 07:07 AM

If people come here and see that we can disagree about creation and evolution but support the same candidate that may actually help us. It doesn't say anything about what Ron Paul believes outside of his reason and style of governing which is based in individual liberty and adherence to the Constitution and intent of the founding fathers all of that informed by his personal religious faith which he has expressed well.

As for a belief that evolution is "logical" and religious faith is not I will contend that since no one was there at the beginning and the science relative to evolution is incomplete and scewed it must be taken on faith. I will also contend that all through the bible and with Jesus Himself there is ample evidence of appeals to our rational judgement and we are actually encouraged in numerous accounts to question God and give a rational basis for our faith. Just as one example Thomas (doubting Thomas) wasn't ready to just believe that the person her saw before him was Jesus he asked to put his fingers in the holes in Jesus's hands to prove that it was Him. Jesus didn't slap Thomas down for his lack of faith and tell him "just believe or shut up". Instead, Jesus extended His hands out to Thomas and invited him to prove to his rational mind that indeed He was Who He said He was.(is)

acptulsa

03-25-2011, 07:21 AM

Amy, unfortunately, Nature and God are not compatible. If you understand nature with a modern scientific perspective, you will understand that human life could not have been pre-destined.

Lord.

If you can't find God in nature, you're willfully blind. Easier to find or appreciate in the city? Blah. And as for predestination, you should find someone more numerous to harass than Calvanists. They're pretty hard to find these days.

RM918

03-25-2011, 07:57 AM

Really? Truth be damned?

They teach whatever they want in Madrassas, too.

Yes. In fact, hell yes. You really think it's a fantastic idea for government, or anyone, to intervene in what someone teaches their children, so long as it's not THEIR brand of truth? That's the exact sort of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place.

I hope you guys are proud of yourselves with your public circle-jerk, you went and brought back cheapseats.

acptulsa

03-25-2011, 08:07 AM

I hope you guys are proud of yourselves with your public circle-jerk, you went and brought back cheapseats.

cheapseats! You have a penchant for public circle jerks? I never in a million years would have guessed.

Sola_Fide

03-25-2011, 08:15 AM

Lord.

If you can't find God in nature, you're willfully blind. Easier to find or appreciate in the city? Blah. And as for predestination, you should find someone more numerous to harass than Calvanists. They're pretty hard to find these days.

It's funny though...most of the Christians who are vocal about their Christianity on this board are Calvinists, including me.

acptulsa

03-25-2011, 08:18 AM

It's funny though...most of the Christians who are vocal about their Christianity on this board are Calvinists, including me.

Rare but vocal. Sure, why not? Old John Calvin himself was a damned sight too vocal for his own good, if I remember correctly.

Ranger29860

03-25-2011, 02:02 PM

I just want to mention something...and I don't want to make a huge deal out of it, but....

I have recieved 5 neg reps in this thread alone so far. No big deal. But, this is supposed to be Ron Paul's forum website and it represents him in some ways...

Do you know that the Christian homeschool crowd that Ron spoke to in the OP would agree with pretty much everything I said in this thread?

Just something to think about guys. We need to know who we are going after to get the Republican nomination in 2012. Its not the atheist Republican vote. The evolution warriors here need to realize the impact of their words.

I can't speak for anyone else that did but i gave you negative rep for calling people names and generally acting like a troll. You claimed knowledge in a field you have no apparent expertise in and spoke about it like it was truth.

I don't mind other peoples opinions i just don't like trolls.

Sola_Fide

03-25-2011, 02:20 PM

Uh.. I called LPG a turd. He called me a moron. No big deal.

PaleoForPaul

03-25-2011, 02:23 PM

Nature and God are not compatible...snip...We know this because we can observe and study the processes which led from the big bang to the organization of matter to the formation of celestial bodies and stars to the formation of galaxies to the formation of planets and solar systems to to beginning of life on our planet, to the naturally-influenced process of evolution, to eventually, modern **** sapiens.

You can study these things, but the reality is most of these are working theories, not provable facts. Furthermore, none of this rules out a "creator". It may rule out a literal translation of the Old Testament. A creator could simply be someone more powerful who set the rules of the universe and lets things "run". If you don't believe in a creator, then you're believing in the creation of everything out of nothing, which is at least as improbable as a creator.

Back to the OP, I think people should be allowed to teach their kids however they'd like. Surely it couldn't be worse than the textbooks nowadays. I recently started reading a Children's book about the bill of rights that claims the constitution is so great because it can be reinterpreted to mean anything. Whee propaganda machine...

ronaldo23

03-25-2011, 02:33 PM

Good point. State-education never teaches the frauds and lapses of logic in the theory of evolution, so how can children not understand the errors if the state-education monopoly never exposes them to it?

I think the teaching of evolution is the least valid reason for why public schools "indoctrinate" children. Private schools teach it just as well, so do private colleges and any scientific institution that isn't affiliated with a church. Public schools do indoctrinate them in other subjects however, especially history where you learn how Warren G. Harding was the worst US president of all time, Lincoln was a hero, FDR was our best president etc.

And do homeschooling parents teach the fundamental holes of creationist logic? No, usually they teach their kids to fundamentally accept it despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary.