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Anti Federalist
03-18-2011, 11:10 PM
Just A Friendly Reminder: Please Shut The Hell Up

http://www.popehat.com/2011/03/18/just-a-friendly-reminder-please-shut-the-hell-up/

It’s a dark and gloomy six in the morning. You’ve just gotten out of bed. You are fuzzy-headed, bleary-eyed, badly in need of coffee. You haven’t showered or dressed. You’re in your underwear, or pajamas.

Suddenly there’s a thunderous pounding on the door, and loud men are shouting something at you. Your heart lurches and the adrenaline jolts you. You open the door, and there is a team of FBI agents, guns prominently displayed in holsters, raid jackets open. They are large and aggressive and unfriendly. They tell you they have a search warrant for your home and push past you. Two of them grab you, bodily turn you around, and handcuff you. They’ll say later they had to do that to secure the scene and assure agent safety, and that you totally weren’t in custody or anything.

Two agents take you outside to your driveway in your pajamas or underwear. At this point your neighbors are beginning to peek curiously out of their windows. The agents push you into the back seat of a G-ride — a late-model American made sedan that smells of air freshener and despair. The two agents sit on either side of you in the back seat; a third agent climbs into the front seat. You shift uncomfortably, trying to avoid sitting on your handcuffed hands. But there’s no way to get comfortable sitting in your underwear in the back of a G-ride with your hands cuffed behind you.

The agents begin to question you about your business dealings. They don’t read you your rights first — they’ll say later they didn’t have to, because you totally weren’t in custody, despite being handcuffed in the back of a G-ride in your underwear surrounded by FBI agents in raid jackets. The agents tag-team you, switch topics rapidly, play good-cop-bad-cop, and use every law enforcement rhetorical trick to intimidate you. We have some really serious questions here, they say. But if you just cooperate, maybe we can clear all of this up.

They start to ask questions about a meeting that took place two years ago. Were you at that meeting with Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones? You say no, no I wasn’t. Maybe you say it without thinking, agitated and confused and muddle-headed from the circumstances. Maybe you don’t have a clear memory of what happened two years ago. Maybe you panic and lie. The agents move on in their questioning.

After a few uncomfortable hours, the agents uncuff you, pull you out of the car, and hand you an incomplete, inaccurate, and illegible receipt purporting to state what they’ve taken. They haul off boxes of documents, disks, disk drives, and whatever else catches their fancy. They’ll see you soon, they say.

And, relatively speaking, they do. Six months later you are indicted. You’re indicted not only for whatever matter the FBI was investigating. As a kicker, you’re also indicted under 18 U.S.C. section 1001 for lying to the FBI. That’s a felony. Your lawyer reviews the discovery, and tells you that when the FBI agents asked you whether you were at that meeting two years ago with Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones, they already knew the answer to the question. Mr. Jones recorded the meeting and is cooperating with the FBI, and they had two other witnesses who placed you there.

There was no chance whatsoever that your denial — whether it was a panic-induced brain fart, or a failure of memory, or a lie — could have misled or deterred the FBI in its investigation for even a moment. But that doesn’t matter. Though materiality is an element of Section 1001, it’s a weak, diluted type of materiality.

Statements to the government are deemed material if they are the sort of statements that have the capacity to influence it. Courts have come very close to creating a presumption of materiality by reasoning that if the information were not material the government would not have asked for it and you wouldn’t have offered it.

There was a time when most prosecutors thought it was chickenshit to charge someone with a felony for an exculpatory denial of wrongdoing that never fooled anyone; that time is in the past.

So. By failing to shut the fuck up, you have just handed the feds a gimme felony charge that will make your case much more difficult to defend.

When the authorities ask you questions, they are not out to “clear this thing up so we can let you go.” They are not your friends. They do not want to help. They are very likely not trying to learn anything or discover anything. They are trying to make, or improve, a case against you. They are hoping that you will fall into their trap. They may be trying to make a weak case strong or turn a lesser charge into a greater one.

Is there ever a situation where, by being friendly and cooperative and answering questions, you can deflect government suspicion or satisfy their concerns without charges? Yes. Very rarely, there is. And when the government comes knocking, they count on you grasping at the hope that this is one of those times. Don’t be a fool. If there’s a chance that cooperation will satisfy the authorities today, there will still be a chance in a day or a week or a month after you’ve consulted a lawyer who understands the situation. When you answer law enforcements’ questions — especially when you do it in a stressful situation like a search — you take grave risks of substantially worsening your situation. You may say, “oh, but I won’t lie.”

Sure.

But can you be sure, sitting cuffed in your underwear at six in the morning in that G-ride, that you will remember events from years ago accurately? Are you sure you won’t be confused and muddled under the circumstances? Are you sure that the government won’t — fueled by claims by cooperators — believe that you’ve lied? Do you really think that if you misremember or mix up events in your head or if your memory is different than the story of a cooperator, that the government is going to give you the benefit of the doubt?

Don’t be a fool. Invoke. For God’s sake, just shut up.

Anti Federalist
03-18-2011, 11:21 PM
Plenty of things to learn from this.

Your cel phone is a real time electronic ball and chain. Look for more and more of this in the future.

Anything that goes wrong in your life, you can be damn sure the first thing the "authorities" are going to look at is that electronic dog collar you have in your pocket.

Time, location and what you were doing will be immediately known.

This poor bastard only did one thing right.

He shut the fuck up.

NTSB: Tug pilot was on cell phone during duck boat crash in Philly that killed 2 Hungarians

http://www.newser.com/article/d9lqo4001/ntsb-tug-pilot-was-on-cell-phone-during-duck-boat-crash-in-philly-that-killed-2-hungarians.html

The mate piloting a tug boat involved in the deadly collision of a tourist boat and a barge last summer was consumed by a family emergency and on his cell phone at the time, a new government report on the crash revealed Monday.

A federal criminal investigation is also under way. On his lawyer's advice, the mate has not cooperated with NTSB investigators, citing his Fifth Amendment right to avoid self-incrimination.

Anti Federalist
03-18-2011, 11:25 PM
"The Video"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE&feature=related

noxagol
03-19-2011, 06:28 AM
The only time you should say a word to a cop is if you are the one that called for their help, and even then you need to be careful as shit.

KevinR
03-19-2011, 09:46 AM
The only time you should say a word to a cop is if you are the one that called for their help, and even then you need to be careful as shit.
Calling 911 can be dangerous, if you're not careful they'll tase you and shoot your dog before you even mention the suspect! haha

eOs
03-19-2011, 09:59 AM
Anything that goes wrong in your life, you can be damn sure the first thing the "authorities" are going to look at is that electronic dog collar you have in your pocket.

Time, location and what you were doing will be immediately known.



Always lock your phone that way they can't get into it when they search your person. Also stick with a phone that doesn't have GPS built in.
Side note: A friend of mine recently rooted his mobile and found that his android was sending GPS data to a 3rd party.

http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2010/09/some-android-apps-found-to-covertly-send-gps-data-to-advertisers.ars

It's easy to do folks, I can only imagine how easy it is for authorities to track everyone now.

kahless
03-19-2011, 11:06 AM
I had never called the cops for anything in my life but lesson learned the first time I did thinking I was being a good samaritan. One night there was allot of smoke coming on my property so I went outside to check it out and there were 4 sheds on neighboring properties but not sure which property the smoke was coming from or whether it was a brush fire. (too dark to tell). Neighbors were away and I did not have the fire department number so I called the police dispatch. I also did not want to risk trespassing on someones private property to check it out.

Well the cop shows up over an hour later after the fire went out and threatened to arrest me for filing a false report. He acted like he was ready to beat me down until he noticed there were other people around who heard him that immediately came to my defense. He then backed down. If they were not there I think things would have gotten ugly.

BlackTerrel
03-19-2011, 11:24 AM
Wow. Very powerful article. Forwarded and posted to Facebook.

Anti Federalist
03-19-2011, 12:24 PM
Always lock your phone that way they can't get into it when they search your person. Also stick with a phone that doesn't have GPS built in.
Side note: A friend of mine recently rooted his mobile and found that his android was sending GPS data to a 3rd party.

http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2010/09/some-android-apps-found-to-covertly-send-gps-data-to-advertisers.ars

It's easy to do folks, I can only imagine how easy it is for authorities to track everyone now.

Good advice, stay away from phones that have GPS in them (although I think almost all do now)

And any "app" or user control panel that claims it shuts off the GPS function in phones with GPS is bullshit.

Just like OnStar in cars, even if you don't pay for it, even if you think it's turned off, it's not, it's always on or able to be turned on remotely.

The only way you can be sure that your cel phone is not transmitting your position is physically blocking the GPS antenna or a Faraday bag.

Or fire, and lots of it.

Anti Federalist
03-19-2011, 12:28 PM
Good lesson learned.

Never call the cops, ever, even if you think it's to do good.

Or, maybe as a last resort, do it anonymously.


I had never called the cops for anything in my life but lesson learned the first time I did thinking I was being a good samaritan. One night there was allot of smoke coming on my property so I went outside to check it out and there were 4 sheds on neighboring properties but not sure which property the smoke was coming from or whether it was a brush fire. (too dark to tell). Neighbors were away and I did not have the fire department number so I called the police dispatch. I also did not want to risk trespassing on someones private property to check it out.

Well the cop shows up over an hour later after the fire went out and threatened to arrest me for filing a false report. He acted like he was ready to beat me down until he noticed there were other people around who heard him that immediately came to my defense. He then backed down. If they were not there I think things would have gotten ugly.

Lucille
03-19-2011, 12:42 PM
My kid and a friend of his watch Cops occasionally just to watch idiots give up all their rights. They can't get over how easily cops talk people out of their rights, and into jail.

http://flexyourrights.org/

Anti Federalist
03-19-2011, 03:13 PM
///

kahless
03-19-2011, 06:01 PM
My kid and a friend of his watch Cops occasionally just to watch idiots give up all their rights. They can't get over how easily cops talk people out of their rights, and into jail.

http://flexyourrights.org/

This is the way it goes at my house when watching cops. "Keep quiet, keep quiet, don't say it, don't say it, then noooooooo you idiot"! LOL.
Either that or we are all yelling at the TV about unnecessary abuse and tasing.

heavenlyboy34
03-19-2011, 06:09 PM
My kid and a friend of his watch Cops occasionally just to watch idiots give up all their rights. They can't get over how easily cops talk people out of their rights, and into jail.

http://flexyourrights.org/

Nice link ^^ :cool:

BamaAla
03-19-2011, 06:15 PM
The only time you should say a word to a cop is if you are the one that called for their help, and even then you need to be careful as shit.

I don't even want to call them for that; there are far too many horror stories out there.

The only thing I'd ever say to one (in an official capacity) is: "I'll have no comment until I have council."

Anti Federalist
03-19-2011, 11:26 PM
///

Anti Federalist
03-20-2011, 02:47 PM
One more bump

Freedom 4 all
03-20-2011, 05:03 PM
But if I'm not guilty of anything, why would I need a lawyer? Shouldn't I just be up front and tell the cops what happened? Although I know a good deal of people who actually believe this. Some of whom think that even asking for a lawyer should be used as evidence against you.

acptulsa
03-20-2011, 05:08 PM
If this happens to you, be sure to thank the nice agents for knocking on your door, as opposed to knocking it down with a battering ram attached to a vehicle. And thank them nicely, mundane. After all, they're inconveniencing other thieves if they leave your door intact so you can lock it. And that lack of professional courtesy could tell on them...

noxagol
03-20-2011, 05:11 PM
It shouldn't be, " if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide ", as this assumes government superiority. It should be, " I've done nothing wrong, so the government has no reason to search me", as this assumes civilian authority.

Anti Federalist
03-20-2011, 05:17 PM
It should be, " I've done nothing wrong, so the government has no reason to search me", as this assumes civilian authority.

That's how it's supposed to be.

That is not how it is now.

AFPVet
03-20-2011, 05:18 PM
They will always try to 'just talk to you' and tell you that they are just trying to figure it out. Always Always Always have representation present. This goes for ANY questioning regardless if you are in custody or not. You have rights for a reason... you may not know what you are saying!

Anti Federalist
03-20-2011, 05:20 PM
They will always try to 'just talk to you' and tell you that they are just trying to figure it out. Always Always Always have representation present. This goes for ANY questioning regardless if you are in custody or not. You have rights for a reason... you may not know what you are saying!

That ^^^

And this is from a former (as well as current?) LEO. Thanks AFPVet!

Folks, watch "The Video"!

Brooklyn Red Leg
03-20-2011, 05:31 PM
Best advice ever: make like a fucking gargoyle and shut the fuck up. Turn to fucking stone. Don't sign shit. Don't talk to them, don't ask to go to the bathroom or anything. The moment you open your yap for anything other than "I am asserting my 5th Amendment Rights", your goose is cooked. Don't ask for a Snickers bar. Don't even nod your fucking head when they offer you coffee. Nothing.

AFPVet
03-20-2011, 06:05 PM
That ^^^

And this is from a former (as well as current?) LEO. Thanks AFPVet!

Folks, watch "The Video"!

You're welcome! Just former LE :) I don't like how departments play politics and have the 'in crowds'.

GunnyFreedom
03-20-2011, 06:55 PM
Best advice ever: make like a fucking gargoyle and shut the fuck up. Turn to fucking stone. Don't sign shit. Don't talk to them, don't ask to go to the bathroom or anything. The moment you open your yap for anything other than "I am asserting my 5th Amendment Rights", your goose is cooked. Don't ask for a Snickers bar. Don't even nod your fucking head when they offer you coffee. Nothing.

A lesson from war:

Name, rank, and serial number; glassy-eyed and unmoving. When you get in the situation, just throw the switch and go from man to automaton. I know, I know, you're the smartest guy in the world, and these guys are pretty dumb. Here's your one shot, fancy, but these guys have seen thousands just like you. So shut up soldier, switch into robot mode and give them name, rank, serial number and demand an interview with an advocate. Anything else will get you or your platoon killed.

freshjiva
03-20-2011, 07:52 PM
Something tells me folks like us in the liberty movement will become prime targets for stunts like this, in addition to Muslims, homosexuals, nonviolent drug users (oh wait...), and even those who are holding physical gold/silver.

Wont surprise me one bit.

Brooklyn Red Leg
03-20-2011, 08:50 PM
A lesson from war:

Name, rank, and serial number; glassy-eyed and unmoving. When you get in the situation, just throw the switch and go from man to automaton. I know, I know, you're the smartest guy in the world, and these guys are pretty dumb. Here's your one shot, fancy, but these guys have seen thousands just like you. So shut up soldier, switch into robot mode and give them name, rank, serial number and demand an interview with an advocate. Anything else will get you or your platoon killed.

Definitely don't want to try and play with the cops when it comes to interrogations. The moment you say anything, other than '5th Amendment', you've proven you're the stupid one. Being the sick fuck I am, it occurred to me that a 'smart' cop (like a plainclothes detective) could walk into an interrogation room with a briefcase, tell the other two cops to leave and never assert he is your attorney, but get you to open up just by looking like one. If he never openly claims to be an attorney, but you go ahead and open your yap, you could get fried anyway.

Eagles' Wings
03-21-2011, 07:47 AM
Thanks to this topic, we are checking with our lawyer about an incident with our 9th grade, 15 year old son. He was accused of causing damage to school property and was questioned by the principal and in-house police officer, alone, in their respective offices. He was terrified. We were not called and told about it. We found out later that evening at school conferences. It was resolved that our son was innocent.

coastie
03-21-2011, 09:53 AM
They will always try to 'just talk to you' and tell you that they are just trying to figure it out. Always Always Always have representation present. This goes for ANY questioning regardless if you are in custody or not. You have rights for a reason... you may not know what you are saying!

^this plus a million

I was never disappointed on any given day how easily people just go right into what I called "obey mode". The second I said "Hi", people would start opening up compartments on the boat, their book bags and purses- EVERYTHING. I was always like :confused::eek:. Some boarding teams I was on would go ahead and search because the boater already consented. Sure, you weren't asked to be searched, and the cops report will read as follows:

".......Approached Mr. x, he was cordial and cooperative. Mr. X voluntarily stated he had (no drugs, didn't say this, etc, ad nauseum) and offered to allow a search of his home/car/boat,etc.......Officer A, then found approx x amount of drugs....."
Again...

Cops are not your friends. EVER. Their sole purpose is to enforce the law. If they had a case against you, you'd be in handcuffs, read your rights and whisked of to jail without passing go. The ONLY reason they "need" to talk to you is because they need you to admit to doing something wrong-and that something doesn't have to be why they were there to begin with.

If you are approached by a cop, not driving, walking down the road say 7 pm , this is what's called a consensual stop. IOW, after he says hi, you can say whatever you want ("Fuck off" isn't recommend) and just walk away, but in most states you don't have to stop and identify yourself. Check your state laws.

If you are stopped by a cop (driving), present your info-then STFU. Ask politely if you're being detained, what the charges are if they say you are in fact being detained, and ask if you can be on your way. Nowadays, it's your call how you handle it from here on out. If ordered out of the car, get out and lock your doors with keys in hand behind you.

When the cops ask you why- HEY! See STFU. Haven't you learned anything?:p Get the response you thought of just then out of your head. Fuck them, it doesn't matter why you locked your door! When the judge asks you-" Force of habit, your honor, I always lock my doors" Point being-you locking your doors is NOT enough for probable cause to search your car. make them break in, just looks worse for them.;)


The key here is to STFU. You do NOT have to answer ANY questions from ANY LE officer, from the po-dunk town cop all the way up to whatever .gov official with an alphabet soup behind his name if talking to you.

You are NOT going to be let go if you are detained by anything you say to them. It's gonna suck, but wait it out (silently) and tell it to the judge. I'd elaborate but gotta run, Ill edit this later..

NewRightLibertarian
03-21-2011, 10:00 AM
Great thread. Refreshing to see so many people who get it.

BLS
03-21-2011, 10:06 AM
NEVER.....invite the man into your life.

(unless you're involved in CCW shooting..and even then, state only the minimum facts and STFU)

Mach
03-21-2011, 11:44 AM
Always lock your phone that way they can't get into it when they search your person. Also stick with a phone that doesn't have GPS built in.
Side note: A friend of mine recently rooted his mobile and found that his android was sending GPS data to a 3rd party.

http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2010/09/some-android-apps-found-to-covertly-send-gps-data-to-advertisers.ars

It's easy to do folks, I can only imagine how easy it is for authorities to track everyone now.

If you don't have GPS you can still be tracked, not as exact, but still used in court, as you travel with your cell phone your signal is transferring from tower to tower wherever you go, downright showing them your path. In the future maybe your cell phone company will send you a speeding ticket because your signal arrived at "Tower 2" a little too quick. ;)

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/06/696.asp

AFPVet
03-21-2011, 12:51 PM
Coastie is right on the money! Be tactful, but don't let them walk all over your rights. Keep in mind, the Court recently ruled that law enforcement no longer have to read you your rights in order for them to use anything against you. I totally disagree with the Court in this matter, but what can you do....

You have the right to remain silent, that is to say nothing at all. You have the right to have an attorney present during any questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided by the government. Do you want to make a statement? NO.

Anytime you 'lawyer' up, they must cease questioning at that time. In fact, even if you do not intend to seek council, simply stating that you want representation is enough to force them to say bye bye and fish elsewhere.

Oh, and other thing, I highly advise representation after a defensive shooting... LE love 'excited utterances'... that is to say something that comes out in the time of a stressful encounter.

osan
03-21-2011, 06:26 PM
Although I know a good deal of people who actually believe this. Some of whom think that even asking for a lawyer should be used as evidence against you.

You know some STOOOPID people.