Creator of the Liberty Dollar Found Guilty

[RonPaulFanInGA]

http://coinworld.com/News/20110328/Bulletin720110328.aspx


Bernard von NotHaus, creator of the Liberty Dollar, was found guilty on two counts this morning in his counterfeiting trial at the federal courthouse in Statesville, N.C.

He was found guilty of making counterfeit coins and an intent to defraud. Sentencing will be held in several months.

The jury reached its decision in less than 90 minutes.

Forfeiture hearings began after the verdict was read in regard to property belonging to von NotHaus and others that was seized by the U.S. government.

At least there is one less terrorist to worry about now:


“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism,” U.S. Attorney Tompkins said in announcing the verdict.

http://charlotte.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel11/ce031811.htm

[eduardo89]

this is such bullshit

[Stary Hickory]

And the Federal Reserve is defrauding the entire world on a scale never seen before in all of history.....amazing is right.

[aGameOfThrones]

The jury reached its decision in less than 90 minutes.

This!!!

[sailingaway]

I tried to buy one, I had no thought for a second that it was anything but a collector's item, and the charge kept going back and forth on my account, and then they cancelled my card for my own protection. (I wasn't asked and was overseas with no debit card.) I don't know that I was buying it from him, though, it was on ebay. This is before I'd heard anything about it.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

this is such bullshit

that, and it gets even better...



STATESVILLE, NC—Bernard von NotHaus, 67, was convicted today by a federal jury of making, possessing, and selling his own coins, announced Anne M. Tompkins, U.S. Attorney for the Western District of North Carolina. Following an eight-day trial and less than two hours of deliberation, von NotHaus, the founder and monetary architect of a currency known as the Liberty Dollar, was found guilty by a jury in Statesville, North Carolina, of making coins resembling and similar to United States coins; of issuing, passing, selling, and possessing Liberty Dollar coins; of issuing and passing Liberty Dollar coins intended for use as current money; and of conspiracy against the United States. The guilty verdict concluded an investigation which began in 2005 and involved the minting of Liberty Dollar coins with a current value of approximately $7 million. Joining the U.S. Attorney Anne M. Tompkins in making today’s announcement are Edward J. Montooth, Acting Special Agent in Charge of the FBI, Charlotte Division; Russell F. Nelson, Special Agent in Charge of the United States Secret Service, Charlotte Division; and Sheriff Van Duncan of the Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office.

According to the evidence introduced during the trial, von NotHaus was the founder of an organization called the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code, commonly known as NORFED and also known as Liberty Services. Von NotHaus was the president of NORFED and the executive director of Liberty Dollar Services, Inc. until on or about September 30, 2008.

Von NotHaus designed the Liberty Dollar currency in 1998 and the Liberty coins were marked with the dollar sign ($); the words dollar, USA, Liberty, Trust in God (instead of In God We Trust); and other features associated with legitimate U.S. coinage. Since 1998, NORFED has been issuing, disseminating, and placing into circulation the Liberty Dollar in all its forms throughout the United States and Puerto Rico. NORFED’s purpose was to mix Liberty Dollars into the current money of the United States. NORFED intended for the Liberty Dollar to be used as current money in order to limit reliance on, and to compete with, United States currency.

In coordination with the Department of Justice, on September 14, 2006, the United States Mint issued a press release and warning to American citizens that the Liberty Dollar was “not legal tender.” The U.S. Mint press release and public service announcement stated that the Department of Justice had determined that the use of Liberty Dollars as circulating money was a federal crime.

Article I, section 8, clause 5 of the United States Constitution delegates to Congress the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. This power was delegated to Congress in order to establish and preserve a uniform standard of value and to insure a singular monetary system for all purchases and debts in the United States, public and private. Along with the power to coin money, Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money which is not issued under its own authority in order to protect and preserve the constitutional currency for the benefit of all citizens of the nation. It is a violation of federal law for individuals, such as von NotHaus, or organizations, such as NORFED, to create private coin or currency systems to compete with the official coinage and currency of the United States.

Von NotHaus, who remains free on bond, faces a sentence of up to 15 years’ imprisonment on count two of the indictment and a fine of not more than $250,000. Von NotHaus faces a prison sentence of five years and fines of $250,000 on both counts one and three. In addition, the United States is seeking the forfeiture of approximately 16,000 pounds of Liberty Dollar coins and precious metals, currently valued at nearly $7 million. The forfeiture trial, which began today before United States District Court Judge Richard Voorhees, will resume on April 4, 2011 in the federal courthouse in Statesville. Judge Voorhees has not yet set a date for the sentencing of von NotHaus.

“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism,” U.S. Attorney Tompkins said in announcing the verdict. “While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country,” she added. “We are determined to meet these threats through infiltration, disruption, and dismantling of organizations which seek to challenge the legitimacy of our democratic form of government.”

The case was investigated by the FBI, Buncombe County Sheriff’s Department, and the U.S. Secret Service, in cooperation with and invaluable assistance of the United States Mint. The case was prosecuted by Assistant United States Attorneys Jill Westmoreland Rose and Craig D. Randall, and the forfeiture trial is being prosecuted by Assistant United States Attorneys Tom Ascik and Ben Bain Creed.

http://charlotte.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel11/ce031811.htm

This ruling should serve notice to all domestic terrorists in possession of gold or silver coinage who are undermining the legitimate fractional fraudulent currency of this country.

Hip, hip, hoorah for the Constitution...

[brandon]

Well the guy was selling silver coins for $20 back when silver was about $14/oz. Always seemed a bit shady to me. He wasn't just selling bullion, we was trying to create an alternative currency by "tricking" people into believing his coins were redeemable for $20.


I don't know...I'm not saying I support the state's decision. Just that this guy seemed a little bit off.

[sailingaway]

Well the guy was selling silver coins for $20 back when silver was about $14/oz. Always seemed a bit shady to me. He wasn't just selling bullion, we was trying to create an alternative currency by "tricking" people into believing his coins were redeemable for $20.


I don't know...I'm not saying I support the state's decision. Just that this guy seemed a little bit off.

I knew I was paying more than the silver value (or trying to pay). I just thought it would be cool to have a coin with Ron's face on it.

[brandon]

I wish I had one of them too. The original Liberty Dollar coins didn't have RP on them. I'm not sure how long they were making coins for but it definitely pre-dates Ron Paul's 2007 campaign.

[Anti Federalist]

I've got five of the NORFED silver 1 ounce Ron Paul rounds.

Ebay's got 'em listed for $228

I paid $20.

http://i.ebayimg.com/09/!B5lH5mQCGk~$(KGrHqUOKn!Ey15gQeEUBMuMVDVmGg~~_1.JP G?set_id=880000500F

Wish I had bought some of the gold 1 ounce rounds.

The cost $1000.

This is the first listing I've seen on ebay of a gold one.

$5500

http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-NORFED-1-oz-Ron-Paul-Gold-1-only-200-/150577294849?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230f1b2e01

[Sentient Void]

God I would have hung the fucking shit out of that jury if I was in it.

And when asked questions during the choosing of jurors, I would have kept my mouth shut about having any preconceived notions about such things.

[low preference guy]

what the fuck.

is he going to appeal?

[sailingaway]

Did Ron testify?

[Anti Federalist]

God I would have hung the fucking shit out of that jury if I was in it.

And when asked questions during the choosing of jurors, I would have kept my mouth shut about having any preconceived notions about such things.

That's why the system won't let you or me anywhere near a jury.

They have a whole elaborate system designed just for the purpose of keeping people like us off juries.

Even if you keep your mouth shut.

Fuckers...

[Anti Federalist]

Did Ron testify?

I don't think so, I know he was issued a subpoena to testify.

???

[TheNcredibleEgg]

I don't understand why y'all are defending him.

If he put $ sign and the word "dollar" on the coins then it's counterfeiting. He should be found guilty.

If he wanted to make an alternate currency - he should have made something of silver in its own unique shape and designate the purity and weight. Without the word or $ sign. (Like maybe a marble shaped sphere.)

[low preference guy]

I don't understand why y'all are defending him.

If he put $ sign and the word "dollar" on the coins then it's counterfeiting. He should be found guilty.

If he wanted to make an alternate currency - he should have made something of silver in its own unique shape and designate the purity and weight. Without the word or $ sign.

Bernanke also puts the $ sign in the stuff he prints. He also puts the word "dollar". But dollar means an unit of silver. Bernanke also should be in jail by the same reasoning.

[TheNcredibleEgg]

Bernanke also puts the $ sign in the stuff he prints. He also puts the word "dollar". But dollar means an unit of silver. Bernanke also should be in jail by the same reasoning.

Comparing him to Bernanke just solidifies my belief in his guilt - since I would likely find Bernanke guilty also.

[Theocrat]

that, and it gets even better...


Article I, section 8, clause 5 of the United States Constitution delegates to Congress the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. This power was delegated to Congress in order to establish and preserve a uniform standard of value and to insure a singular monetary system for all purchases and debts in the United States, public and private. Along with the power to coin money, Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money which is not issued under its own authority in order to protect and preserve the constitutional currency for the benefit of all citizens of the nation. It is a violation of federal law for individuals, such as von NotHaus, or organizations, such as NORFED, to create private coin or currency systems to compete with the official coinage and currency of the United States.

This ruling should serve notice to all domestic terrorists in possession of gold or silver coinage who are undermining the legitimate fractional fraudulent currency of this country.

Hip, hip, hoorah for the Constitution...

It's funny how they will emphasize that only Congress has the power to create and regulate our nation's currency, but we all know that Congress abdicates its Constitutional duty to do that by giving it over to the Federal Reserve. So, even Congress is guilty of its own lack of duties to protect our currency.

[heavenlyboy34]

According to wiki:

Numerous individuals within the U.S. Government have been interviewed regarding the Liberty Dollar. The Liberty Dollar organization asserts that one U.S. Secret Service agent has stated "It's not counterfeit money"[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar#cite_note-norfed.org-9) while remaining "skeptical" of NORFED. Another agent is reported to have warned that the Liberty Dollar "appears to be in violation of 18 U.S.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_18_of_the_United_States_Code) § 514 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/514.html)."[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar#cite_note-norfed.org-9) The minting of Liberty dollars also appears to be in violation of 18 U.S.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_18_of_the_United_States_Code) § 486 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/486.html):

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
The promoter of the Liberty Dollar asserts that Claudia Dickens, spokeswoman for the U.S. Treasury Department's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_the_Treasury) Bureau of Engraving and Printing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Engraving_and_Printing), had previously said American Liberty Currency is legitimate. Dickens was quoted as having said "There's nothing illegal about this", after the Treasury Department's legal team reviewed the currency. "As long as it doesn't say 'legal tender' there's nothing wrong with it."[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar#cite_note-10)
In 2006 the U.S. Mint issued a press release stating that prosecutors at the Justice Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Justice) had determined that using Liberty Dollars as circulating money is a federal crime. The press release also stated that the "Liberty Dollars" are meant to compete with the circulating coinage (currency) of the United States and such competition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition) consequently is a criminal act.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar#cite_note-11) The Justice Department also stated that the Liberty Dollar was confusingly similar to actual U.S. currency, and the language used on NORFED's website was deceptive.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar#cite_note-12)
The Liberty Dollar organization responded to the Mint's press release by stating that "[t]he Liberty Dollar never has claimed to be, does not claim to be, is not, and does not purport to be, legal tender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender)."[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar#cite_note-13) The promoters of the Liberty Dollar have asserted that the Liberty Dollar is not legal tender, and that legal tender and barter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter) are mutually exclusive concepts. The promoter asserts that the Liberty Dollar is a numismatic piece or medallion which may be used voluntarily as barter.

If this is true, I don't see a good case against the Liberty Dollar folks.

[heavenlyboy34]

It's funny how they will emphasize that only Congress has the power to create and regulate our nation's currency, but we all know that Congress abdicates its Constitutional duty to do that by giving it over to the Federal Reserve. So, even Congress is guilty of its own lack of duties to protect our currency.

Congress is derelict in pretty much ALL of its duties, and has been for a long time. ;)

[Fox McCloud]

I love how "terrorism" is being attached or linked to a lot of federal crimes these days...it's a lovely trend...

[madfoot]

fucking hell

[ChristianAnarchist]

Just makes one wish for the total collapse of the dollar (can't be stopped) to happen sooner rather than later...

[devil21]

Not a single mention of the Federal Reserve in that entire article. Looks like just another attempt to keep people thinking that the "government" issues money and no one can contest that. After all, it's their constitutional duty! I would have liked to hear the jury instructions if they were able to deliberate for only 90 minutes. Must have been "did it say dollar? then guilty" and that's it. The average juror has no understanding whatsoever of fractional reserve banking and where it comes from.

Of course, at the end all the Feds wanted is his property. They'll get it all too.

[LibForestPaul]

Yeah, he fooled me, damn those were good counterfeits!
Jury conviction...hooray...as if there is any hope for this shithole usa...let it burn already...

[Dr.3D]

Not a single mention of the Federal Reserve in that entire article. Looks like just another attempt to keep people thinking that the "government" issues money and no one can contest that. After all, it's their constitutional duty! I would have liked to hear the jury instructions if they were able to deliberate for only 90 minutes. Must have been "did it say dollar? then guilty" and that's it. The average juror has no understanding whatsoever of fractional reserve banking and where it comes from.

Of course, at the end all the Feds wanted is his property. They'll get it all too.

Well, the word dollar is used on many different foreign currencies too. For example, there is the Zimbabwee dollar, the Australian dollar,and the Hong Kong dollar. Putting the word dollar on a silver round shouldn't make anybody guilty.

[AZKing]

i love how "terrorism" is being attached or linked to a lot of federal crimes these days...it's a lovely trend...

terrorist!

[Fox McCloud]

Well, the word dollar is used on many different foreign currencies too. For example, there is the Zimbabwee dollar, the Australian dollar,and the Hong Kong dollar. Putting the word dollar on a silver round shouldn't make anybody guilty.

Heck, Australia and Canada even use the same symbol as we do.

[devil21]

Heck, Australia and Canada even use the same symbol as we do.

I should have been more clear. "Cartel dollars", not commoner dollars.

[AZKing]

counterfeit - forge: make a copy of with the intent to deceive"

counterfeit - a copy that is represented as the original

I'd say the his actions hardly match those definitions. Counterfeit? What was he making a coping of? We don't issue any currency that's even similar to the coins that he did.

Yes, because someone would definitely come to the conclusion that the coin is ACTUALLY issued by the Federal Reserve when they see "Repeal the Federal Reserve and Tax Code" on the back of a coin. The fake money I used to play with as a kid has a better chance of being passed off as real money.

[Fox McCloud]

I say we prosecute whoever designed the Canadian penny--it's a penny and is the same color and size, and Americans mistake it for our pennies, so clearly its the designers fault; I insist we prosecute him at once; if Canada refuse to give him up, then we must take swift and decisive military action to take down this individual engaging in terrorist activities against the United States of America!

[hazek]

And the Federal Reserve is defrauding the entire world on a scale never seen before in all of history.....amazing is right.

I think more and more that instead of trying to change this while 95% of people simply don't care is shooting myself in the foot and I should also just exploit the clueless sheep of this world.

[demolama]

was this the correct ruling? nope... but the Liberty Dollar had too many similarities with coins that were once minted by the U.S. Mint.

Why bother putting trust in god? why bother putting liberty across the top like the peace dollar or the date at the bottom?

Is Peace Dollar current money? Absolutely not they stopped minting these years ago but I'm sure you could easily go buy stuff with them at their face value if you wanted to. It would still be considered legal to do so because it is still legal tender since it was issued by the U.S government.

The major difference would be the back but who really reads their money?

http://www.silverpeacedollar.com/images/1921_peace_dollar.jpghttp://www.dictocracy.com/libertydollar/legal/graphics/ldf_silver_large.jpg

[Brian4Liberty]

But a fake version of the Buffalo Gold coin is perfectly acceptable...

https://www.official2011buffaloproof.com/
http://www.asseenontvpromo.com/collectibles/50-gold-buffalo-coin/

[emazur]

The major difference would be the back but who really reads their money?


Well the first coin doesn't have any value listed on the front you so kinda have to

[HOLLYWOOD]

Jury Meandering... remember to play their game during the screening process. ;)

Isn't it amazing that all the Liberty Coins are worth so much more now and all the FEDERAL RESERVE shit is worth less?

This game is so rigged by the racketeering/counterfeiting/control of the Federal government and the Federal Reserve.

Who the heck was representing Liberty Dollar? Doesn't sound like they're very good. Last resort, Chewbacca Defense

[puppetmaster]

fuck them....The FED is going down in flames anyway.....I will let them burn and stoke the fires

[puppetmaster]

we need to get Ron elected so he can pardon this guy!!....more motivation

[kah13176]

Everyone Listen UP!!!

I feel it of the utmost importance to point this out so you guys have it to use in your future debates. I rarely see this brought up, sometimes even among my fellow libertarians. To what do I refer? The definition of terrorism. The term is thrown around extremely liberally these days and has come to mean something that it does not. This manipulates memories of 9/11 and true terrorism, to emotionally engineer people into a certain mindset.

•the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear

Whenever these assholes bring up this fearmongering by mentioning "terrorism", then remind them what exactly what terrorism is. Issuing silver tokens is NONVIOLENT and NONCOERCIVE, and therefore does not fall into the category of "terrorism".

Orwell believed that governments control their people by first redefining the language.

[Sentient Void]

That's why the system won't let you or me anywhere near a jury.

They have a whole elaborate system designed just for the purpose of keeping people like us off juries.

Even if you keep your mouth shut.

Fuckers...

I've always found it interesting that I've not once been asked to serve on jury duty...

I would work to nullify the shit out of every dumbass law out there, and hang juries on unjust laws if they couldn't be converted.

[NYgs23]

Three words: fully informed juries.

[NYgs23]

was this the correct ruling? nope... but the Liberty Dollar had too many similarities with coins that were once minted by the U.S. Mint.

Why bother putting trust in god? why bother putting liberty across the top like the peace dollar or the date at the bottom?

Is Peace Dollar current money? Absolutely not they stopped minting these years ago but I'm sure you could easily go buy stuff with them at their face value if you wanted to. It would still be considered legal to do so because it is still legal tender since it was issued by the U.S government.

The major difference would be the back but who really reads their money?

http://www.silverpeacedollar.com/images/1921_peace_dollar.jpghttp://www.dictocracy.com/libertydollar/legal/graphics/ldf_silver_large.jpg

Yeah, it would have be more savvy and also cheaper to simply have a plan round labeled "1 oz silver round." No need to be fancy.

[AdamT]

Who were these dumb shit jurors?? Good lord von NotHaus got royally screwed in this one poor bastard. I got screwed too, by the Feds when they stole all Liberty Dollar's gold, silver, and copper. I had 100 copper Ron Paul rounds on order and never got them. Luckily I did receive my 4 RP silvers though.

Every wonder what gov't black hole all that precious metal went down?

[Anti Federalist]

The vast majority of Gestapo informers were not full-term informers working undercover, but were rather ordinary citizens who for whatever reason chose to denounce those they knew to the Gestapo.[18]

We're all on the way to prison, or worse.

Guess who the mindless mundanes will be turning in to DHS in the coming years.


Everyone Listen UP!!!

I feel it of the utmost importance to point this out so you guys have it to use in your future debates. I rarely see this brought up, sometimes even among my fellow libertarians. To what do I refer? The definition of terrorism. The term is thrown around extremely liberally these days and has come to mean something that it does not. This manipulates memories of 9/11 and true terrorism, to emotionally engineer people into a certain mindset.

•the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear

Whenever these assholes bring up this fearmongering by mentioning "terrorism", then remind them what exactly what terrorism is. Issuing silver tokens is NONVIOLENT and NONCOERCIVE, and therefore does not fall into the category of "terrorism".

Orwell believed that governments control their people by first redefining the language.

[Anti Federalist]

Who were these dumb shit jurors?? Good lord von NotHaus got royally screwed in this one poor bastard. I got screwed too, by the Feds when they stole all Liberty Dollar's gold, silver, and copper. I had 100 copper Ron Paul rounds on order and never got them. Luckily I did receive my 4 RP silvers though.

Every wonder what gov't black hole all that precious metal went down?

Predator drones, porno scanners and Israeli foriegn aid.

VonNothaus will die in prison, just like Ed and Elaine Brown.

[AFPVet]

That's why the system won't let you or me anywhere near a jury.

They have a whole elaborate system designed just for the purpose of keeping people like us off juries.

Even if you keep your mouth shut.

Fuckers...

Yep... and the crazy thing is that prosecutors get to cherry-pick the jurors.

[ClayTrainor]

Everyone Listen UP!!!

I feel it of the utmost importance to point this out so you guys have it to use in your future debates. I rarely see this brought up, sometimes even among my fellow libertarians. To what do I refer? The definition of terrorism. The term is thrown around extremely liberally these days and has come to mean something that it does not. This manipulates memories of 9/11 and true terrorism, to emotionally engineer people into a certain mindset.

•the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear

Whenever these assholes bring up this fearmongering by mentioning "terrorism", then remind them what exactly what terrorism is. Issuing silver tokens is NONVIOLENT and NONCOERCIVE, and therefore does not fall into the category of "terrorism".

Orwell believed that governments control their people by first redefining the language.

Epic post! +Rep when i have more ammo.

Everyone should also check out this video, if you havent already! It really drives this point home.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IRbwpc2XV4

[anaconda]

This was over fast. I thought the defense had approximately 3 weeks of expert witnesses lined up to testify?????????

Wow I am really beginning to evolve my perspective from the "out of control" government to a complete criminal cabal hijacking. I mean this seriously. It's just a bunch of crazy warlords that spend a small amount of their pie on social infrastructure and programs and this appeases the sheep. It's really fascinating.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Ninety minutes isn't too bad if the evidence made him look overwhelmingly guilty. There are murder trials where the jury deliberates for less time than that.

[pcosmar]

Three words: fully informed juries.

Three words. Is Not Allowed

They take great pains to make sure that those on a jury will do as they are told. (not think for themselves)

[Zippyjuan]

But a fake version of the Buffalo Gold coin is perfectly acceptable...

https://www.official2011buffaloproof.com/
http://www.asseenontvpromo.com/collectibles/50-gold-buffalo-coin/

One major difference- beyond calling it a "tribute" in marketing- the Golded Buffalo copy does not list any face value on it. The Liberty Dollar coins do have a US$ amount stamped on them- and this is where they get into trouble. If they had left off dollar amounts, the case against them would have been much more difficult.

[juvanya]

But a fake version of the Buffalo Gold coin is perfectly acceptable...

https://www.official2011buffaloproof.com/
http://www.asseenontvpromo.com/collectibles/50-gold-buffalo-coin/
Thats a good point.



The Liberty Dollar got me into PMs as money long before I became a libertarian, when I was still a dyed red socialist. I thought of buying some, but never wasa ble to find a location and didnt really tried to hard. Its a noble idea, but executed horribly. Namely, their method of operation. Its too shaky and detached. A better system would be based on grams of silver or something.

Guess we have another political prisoner now, whenever he is brought to a cage.

[LibertyEagle]

Ninety minutes isn't too bad if the evidence made him look overwhelmingly guilty. There are murder trials where the jury deliberates for less time than that.

Yes, but what probably happened is that the judge gave them instructions as to what constituted guilt and the jury probably followed it to a t. This is the problem in most cases, jurors do not understand that they can ignore what the judge says and make their own decisions. I've sat on several juries and I was appalled at how most people acted like little sheep.

[Anti Federalist]

Yes, but what probably happened is that the judge gave them instructions as to what constituted guilt and the jury probably followed it to a t. This is the problem in most cases, jurors do not understand that they can ignore what the judge says and make their own decisions. I've sat on several juries and I was appalled at how most people acted like little sheep.

"But the man in the funny black dress told us we had to do it."

*facepalm*

[ClayTrainor]

"But the man in the funny black dress told us we had to do it."

*facepalm*

"With great costumes comes great authority" - The State :p

[LibertyEagle]

"With great costumes comes great authority" - The State :p

Last time I checked, even anarchists believed in trials.

The problem isn't the judge. It's the fact that the American people have become ignorant, lazy and docile.

[Travlyr]

Last time I checked, even anarchists believed in trials.

The problem isn't the judge. It's the fact that the American people have become ignorant, lazy and docile.

Even more than that. The American people have been taught ignorance, are being taught to ignore the facts, and they just love American Idol.

[ClayTrainor]

Last time I checked, even anarchists believed in trials.

lol, Of course. But do judges really need special costumes in order to have legitimacy?



The problem isn't the judge. It's the fact that the American people have become ignorant, lazy and docile.
Nowhere did I blame a judge for anything, AF made a comment about the a woman in a black dress (the costume of a judge), and I decided to mock the idea of people wearing great costumes, having great authority.

It was a joke LE, not really a point I was expecting someone to try and argue, lmao.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cdqdRjExLbc/S9M626gJKiI/AAAAAAAAAeE/VChb1PlGgh0/s1600/WHOOSH2%5B1%5D.gif

[Brian4Liberty]

One major difference- beyond calling it a "tribute" in marketing- the Golded Buffalo copy does not list any face value on it. The Liberty Dollar coins do have a US$ amount stamped on them- and this is where they get into trouble. If they had left off dollar amounts, the case against them would have been much more difficult.

Yeah, but the marketing does call it their "$50 Gold Piece". The entire ad is an attempt at deception, going back and forth between descriptions of the real coin and their "tribute". It is much closer to a counterfeit than the Liberty Coin.

[AFPVet]

Three words. Is Not Allowed

They take great pains to make sure that those on a jury will do as they are told. (not think for themselves)

That's what always pissed me off when I was studying criminal justice. It made me sick how the prosecution could cherry-pick the jurors... no legal scholars, no current or former LEO's... they basically want a bunch of robots which can be easily programmed by the prosecution.

[Carson]

Fark thread on the topic.With comments like;

"Shenanigans! If it were illegal to use their brainwashed patriotism to fleece rubes of their money, the Republican Party would have disappeared a long time ago."

Remember that guy who was selling "Liberty Dollars" made of gold and silver as an alternative to U.S. currency a few years ago? Turns out that wasn't exactly legal, surprisingly (http://www.fark.com/comments/6046623/Remember-that-guy-who-was-selling-Liberty-Dollars-made-of-gold-silver-as-an-alternative-to-US-currency-a-few-years-ago-Turns-out-that-wasnt-exactly-legal-surprisingly)

[pcosmar]

That's what always pissed me off when I was studying criminal justice. It made me sick how the prosecution could cherry-pick the jurors... no legal scholars, no current or former LEO's... they basically want a bunch of robots which can be easily programmed by the prosecution.

Add to that,
anyone that has ever been convicted of anything, or has family or friends that have been to court.
Anyone that has an opinion (is in any way educated about the issue)
Anyone that has heard of the case (and may have formed an opinion)

They can exclude almost anyone that is not a blank stare.
:(

[Carson]

That's what always pissed me off when I was studying criminal justice. It made me sick how the prosecution could cherry-pick the jurors... no legal scholars, no current or former LEO's... they basically want a bunch of robots which can be easily programmed by the prosecution.

Or how about when they tell you what the law is and refuse to read it as written?

[Zippyjuan]

Yeah, but the marketing does call it their "$50 Gold Piece". The entire ad is an attempt at deception, going back and forth between descriptions of the real coin and their "tribute". It is much closer to a counterfeit than the Liberty Coin.
There ads are very deceptive. You have to be knowledgeble to be able to figure out that you are not getting a real gold coin but a copy "clad" in 14 mgs of 24 carat gold. The do not actually call their own coin a $50 piece- when they talk about a $50 coin they are talking about the original. They never say-either in their ads or on the coin- that it is a $50 coin while the Liberty coins do have a US dollar value stamped on them. Significant difference as far as the law is concerned.

[Anti Federalist]

There ads are very deceptive. You have to be knowledgeble to be able to figure out that you are not getting a real gold coin but a copy "clad" in 14 mgs of 24 carat gold. The do not actually call their own coin a $50 piece- when they talk about a $50 coin they are talking about the original. They never say-either in their ads or on the coin- that it is a $50 coin while the Liberty coins do have a US dollar value stamped on them. Significant difference as far as the law is concerned.

As angry as I am with this, Zippy's right here.

NORFED fucked up when they stamped a $ denomination on the coins.

While the feds had been after NORFED for years, the case would have been a little more difficult had that not been on there.

[low preference guy]

As angry as I am with this, Zippy's right here.

NORFED fucked up when they stamped a $ denomination on the coins.

While the feds had been after NORFED for years, the case would have been a little more difficult had that not been on there.

question: aren't there foreign currencies that one can posses in the U.S. and do have the $ sign?

[Jim Casey]

Every wonder what gov't black hole all that precious metal went down?
It might be melted and minted into eagle coins.

[sratiug]

There ads are very deceptive. You have to be knowledgeble to be able to figure out that you are not getting a real gold coin but a copy "clad" in 14 mgs of 24 carat gold. The do not actually call their own coin a $50 piece- when they talk about a $50 coin they are talking about the original. They never say-either in their ads or on the coin- that it is a $50 coin while the Liberty coins do have a US dollar value stamped on them. Significant difference as far as the law is concerned.

Show me where they are stamped with a US dollar value.

[Anti Federalist]

Show me where they are stamped with a US dollar value.

Says right on the 1 ounce silver - $20

And the word "dollar".

http://i.ebayimg.com/09/!B5lH5mQCGk~$(KGrHqUOKn!Ey15gQeEUBMuMVDVmGg~~_1.JP G?set_id=880000500F

[Anti Federalist]

question: aren't there foreign currencies that one can posses in the U.S. and do have the $ sign?

Good question, that I do not have the answer to...

[low preference guy]

Says right on the 1 ounce silver - $20

And the word "dollar".

http://i.ebayimg.com/09/!B5lH5mQCGk~$(KGrHqUOKn!Ey15gQeEUBMuMVDVmGg~~_1.JP G?set_id=880000500F

it looks like they are pretty coins

[Anti Federalist]

it looks like they are pretty coins

I've got five.

They are awesome coins, especially under a loupe.

Lots of interesting details.

[Carson]

It might be melted and minted into eagle coins.

You would have to have a real mint to do that. The mint now is to busy stamping money symbols on trinkets. Proud that they make a profit I might add. Oh the shame...

[Sola_Fide]

Depressing....

[Razmear]

So is DisneyLand now a terrorist organization?
http://www.vision.net.au/~pwood/DisneyDollarFront1.jpg
They've been pawning these for about 20 years.
Do a google image search for Disney Dollar to see how much more similar these are to US Currency than the Norfed issues.
Also, what about arcade tokens? Are they competing with the US Quarter? More terrorism I guess.
Gift Cards? Grandma used to send a $5 bill for Christmas, now it's a gift card for some store I'll never shop at, guess she's a terrorist too.

wtf? this country is hosed.
eb

[sratiug]

Says right on the 1 ounce silver - $20

And the word "dollar".

http://i.ebayimg.com/09/!B5lH5mQCGk~$(KGrHqUOKn!Ey15gQeEUBMuMVDVmGg~~_1.JP G?set_id=880000500F

I didn't remember seeing the USA stamp. The dollar sign is not a creation of the American government. With the dollar being an undefined imaginary thing how can it be proved these are not indeed $20 coins?

[MN Patriot]

Read the comments for this news article:
http://www.citizen-times.com/comments/article/20110319/NEWS01/110319006/Liberty-Dollar-creator-convicted-federal-court

Just about every one of them supports the Liberty dollar and is critical of the Federal Reserve and the FBI. Of course it is linked from Drudge, but still...

I think we may eventually have our own revolution.

[South Park Fan]

Read the comments for this news article:
http://www.citizen-times.com/comments/article/20110319/NEWS01/110319006/Liberty-Dollar-creator-convicted-federal-court

Just about every one of them supports the Liberty dollar and is critical of the Federal Reserve and the FBI. Of course it is linked from Drudge, but still...

I think we may eventually have our own revolution.

How is it that most of the Internet seems to be so libertarian-leaning, yet the American populace is as submissive as ever?

[ClayTrainor]

How is it that most of the Internet seems to be so libertarian-leaning, yet the American populace is as submissive as ever?

Probably has something to do with the fact that the internet is the closest representation of a free-market we have.

[low preference guy]

Probably has something to do with the fact that the internet is a the closest representation of a free-market we have.

i think it's actually a market. people communicate, exchange ideas, make plans, buy and sell things.

[ClayTrainor]

i think it's actually a market. people communicate, exchange ideas, make plans, buy and sell things.

It's a market for sure. Pretty much a real free-market, for the most part. The state tries to regulate it, but there's always creative alternatives popping up when they do.

[demolama]

So is DisneyLand now a terrorist organization?
http://www.vision.net.au/~pwood/DisneyDollarFront1.jpg


Feds Raid Disney, Confiscate Fake Dollars
by Vidad MaGoodn

ORLANDO, Fl (MNN) – In a rush to follow up their raid on the headquarters of the alternative Liberty Dollar currency, the FBI conducted a deadly early morning raid on an unlikely target – the Disney World theme park – arresting dozens and confiscating truckloads of contraband.

The reason? Disney dollars – a currency backed by the Disney corporation and circulated through their theme parks, redeemable in any goods available. Unlike the US dollar, which features the faces of dead presidents, Disney’s currency features the faces of their popular cartoon characters.

FBI agents confiscated millions in funny money, as well as T-shirts, candy, Indiana Jones hats, baby toys, plush dolls and pirate swords.

“The cache of plastic weapons was of particular concern to us as well,” stated Homeland Security Agent Reilly A. Sunovabich. “This makes us believe that this organization not only was issuing a counterfeit currency – it was also stockpiling items that could be used in acts of terrorism.”

The Government’s action this morning was swift and efficient. At least a dozen deaths were reported – one being that of the infant child of ringleader Mickey Mouse.

Sunovabich stated about the incident, “He (Mickey) was acting aggressively towards our agents, waving a white handkerchief in a menacing manner and using the infant as a human shield. Though we regret the loss of life, we stand 100 percent behind the action of the highly trained sharpshooter who fired on this enemy combatant.”

According to one witness, Minnie Mouse, alleged spouse of Mickey Mouse and mother of the dead infant pleaded with officials to “Let the gang go – all of them. Goofy, Cinderella, Donald – and my sweet Mickey! They did nothing wrong! You’re… murderers and tyrants!” Her cries were quickly ended with a tasering by officers concerned by her erratic behavior.

Others dead in the attack include seven abnormally short men who were living together in a house. Early reports suggest that they may have been illegal immigrants hired as Disney cleaning staff, though data is unclear. The men were killed when an incendiary grenade fell into the bedroom where they were apparently all sleeping in the same bed.

Another death took place later in the day. A counterfeiting accomplice, known as “Goofy,” died while being interrogated by officials after the raid. Sunovabich stated that the death was normal and that “it was more suitable for some to die to protect the peace than for agents to lose the entire nation.”

According to another report, Goofy’s death was related to a controversial interrogation technique known as “waterboarding.” Officals deny that allegation, instead relating the death to stress-induced heart failure.

Disney officials vow to fight the confiscation and continue to insist their dollars were fully backed by tangible goods, acting as a system of barter not intended to be ‘legal tender.’

Sunovabichs’ response? “Shove it. We ARE the law.”

http://magoodnnews.blogspot.com/2007/11/feds-raid-disney-confiscate-fake.html

[Matt Collins]

Stossel has picked up on it. He writes his own blogs:
http://stossel.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2011/03/22/starting-a-new-currency-is-%E2%80%9Cdomestic-terrorism%E2%80%9D/





Also there is this video from 2007 from the Liberty Dollar guy:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb5RTgvZzzE&feature=player_embedded

[Matt Collins]

Who were these dumb shit jurors??Your average voter :(

[Matt Collins]

Says right on the 1 ounce silver - $20

And the word "dollar".

Yes, but it doesn't say "US" on it either.

[Kregisen]

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/MilkRath/199928_10150135875430665_711585664_6949539_599232_ n.jpg?t=1300834116

Here's one of my liberty dollars signed by Ron himself!


I can't believe we even have legal tender laws in america....some of the most immoral laws in existence.

[Matt Collins]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0D7s4MfbQE







He was also recently interviewed on Freedom Watch by Judge Napolitano:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufHiZKKh9Hw#t=27m0s

[Anti Federalist]

I didn't remember seeing the USA stamp. The dollar sign is not a creation of the American government. With the dollar being an undefined imaginary thing how can it be proved these are not indeed $20 coins?


Yes, but it doesn't say "US" on it either.

I happen to agree, and am not arguing the point.

All I am saying, in agreement with ZJ here, is that NORFED and BVN would have been much better off had they not stamped the coins with a dollar sign and denomination.

Had they not done that, the feds would have had much more difficult case to make.