Do you really own your house if you have to pay property taxes?

[Howard_Roark]

I live in an apartment overlooking a wooded creek. On the other side of the creek are million dollar homes. Just for kicks I went online and looked up the amount they are paying in property taxes and it’s $20,000-$30,000/year which is 2-2.5% depending on exemptions here in Texas. These are nice houses, but not mansions. They had to pay a million dollars in cash or had to go into debt to buy these houses and for all that they get the right to pay the government thousands of dollars each month in property taxes, which is 3-4x as much as I pay in rent alone. This state is supposed to be low tax, because it doesn’t have an income tax but property taxes have gone up so much that they’ve largely compensated for that. My ultimate question is, when in order to live in your house you have to pay the government $20,000-$30,000/year, do you really own it?

[Agorism]

Well you rent it from the government basically.

If they could get away with property tax on smaller items, they would. Rent your gold. Own a computer? Good ...pay property tax on that thing.

[amy31416]

No.

[Jack Bauer]

No. Property tax = Rent you pay to the govt.

[terp]

No. I've made this stance many times in conversations and on other message boards. It is generally not well received. I think I'll have better luck on this board. ;)

The fact that you can own your house outright & still have it repossessed for failure to pay property taxes argues that you do not in fact own your house.

[kahless]

Property taxes = renting from government. Therefore we do not have private property rights in most states. Until that changes, the US as a free country is a sham.

[amy31416]

Because of property taxes, there is no real security in your property, no matter what you do. Save your whole life? It can be wiped out by monetary manipulation, inflation. Build your whole life? It can be taken away through eminent domain. Live in a neighborhood that improved? You'll be taxed out of there.

It's theft, plain and simple. Which is why we need a local push for alternatives to funding things like roads, police, fire-fighting and schools (if you're into that sort of thing.)

[Michael Landon]

Are there any states that are property tax free?

- ML

[Grubb556]

What if we removed property tax and had a state sale tax collected by counties, to which they can use 50% of the collected taxes?

[Carehn]

No. Thats called rent.

[furface]

There is a tangible cost of protecting property. The entity that protects your property against trespasses and illegal seizure has a valid case for being compensated. If you do that yourself, then maybe you shouldn't have to pay property taxes.

Unvoluntary levies for things like schools, fire protection, police "protection" are of course absurd.

There is also the issue of the natural right to enough land and resources to support yourself and your family. This may sound a bit socialistic, but people should not have to be a slave for most of their lives in order to get the resources necessary to survive. I know it sounds a lot like "land reform" for socialist leaning countries, but I personally believe that enough land to keep a house and/or small farm is a natural right of being alive. If people all had this without property taxes and mortgages, there wouldn't be this huge need for social welfare systems stealing money from one group to entitle others.

[Howard_Roark]

In China, they have no property tax. I once read that some Chinese real estate investors came to the US looking for opportunities but left after they were horrified to discover that we have an annual property tax.

[ItsTime]

Because of property taxes, there is no real security in your property, no matter what you do. Save your whole life? It can be wiped out by monetary manipulation, inflation. Build your whole life? It can be taken away through eminent domain. Live in a neighborhood that improved? You'll be taxed out of there.

It's theft, plain and simple. Which is why we need a local push for alternatives to funding things like roads, police, fire-fighting and schools (if you're into that sort of thing.)

That is why we need to work hard local and get in places that can influence that. Through the suggestions of my town budget committee we privatized a few things and at the same time kept the tax rate low. However, until we privatize schools there will be NO hope for ever getting rid of the property tax.

[furface]

However, until we privatize schools there will be NO hope for ever getting rid of the property tax.

Different issues in different states. In California if the State and all local governments shut down tomorrow, there would still be another 40 years worth of pensions to pay off. My county now pays more in pension costs than it does in salaries. It's a huge scandal, and I personally believe there's going to be civil unrest over it in California. Government unions have basically bankrupt the state.

[furface]

In China, they have no property tax. I once read that some Chinese real estate investors came to the US looking for opportunities but left after they were horrified to discover that we have an annual property tax.

Bad ideas seem to get around.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-27/china-approves-property-tax-trials-in-two-cities-to-curb-prices.html

[QueenB4Liberty]

There is also the issue of the natural right to enough land and resources to support yourself and your family. This may sound a bit socialistic, but people should not have to be a slave for most of their lives in order to get the resources necessary to survive. I know it sounds a lot like "land reform" for socialist leaning countries, but I personally believe that enough land to keep a house and/or small farm is a natural right of being alive. If people all had this without property taxes and mortgages, there wouldn't be this huge need for social welfare systems stealing money from one group to entitle others.


I agree with this.

[johnrocks]

No, nor your labor if they can put you in jail for not paying income taxes nor your body if you can't sell an organ,commit euthanasia if you have a terminal illness or even smoke a joint without being a criminal.

[Humanae Libertas]

Not just property tax, but if you have a mortgage/loan you technically do not own the home until it is paid off -- even after all that, you still have to give yearly rent towards your state government. So in a sense, at no point do you really own your property.

Yes, its a backwards world we live in...

[Noob]

Go to Nevada, buy some land get an Allodial title for it.

[Howard_Roark]

There is also the issue of the natural right to enough land and resources to support yourself and your family. This may sound a bit socialistic, but people should not have to be a slave for most of their lives in order to get the resources necessary to survive. I know it sounds a lot like "land reform" for socialist leaning countries, but I personally believe that enough land to keep a house and/or small farm is a natural right of being alive. If people all had this without property taxes and mortgages, there wouldn't be this huge need for social welfare systems stealing money from one group to entitle others.

A bit socialistic? That is straight out of Karl Marx Communist Manifesto. Land "reform" is the foundation for most communist revolutions and the first thing that they do once they win. This is the polar opposite of a libertarian position.

[speciallyblend]

nope you never own your house!!! if they want your property. they just raise property taxes until you have to sell or lose it. It is the american way, the dreams are dead!!

[Echoes]

A large portion of property taxes typically go to public dronification (aka schools). Getting rid of that mandate would be a good first step.

[ctiger2]

No you don't. I propose a ban on all primary residence property taxes.

[jkr]

nope

[BenIsForRon]

Why are you guys hating on the property tax so much but you're fine with Ron Paul's suggestion of collecting revenue through tariffs? Either way property is being taxed. The only difference in Ron Paul's suggestion is that it's taxed at the time of changing ownership, so I guess it doesn't feel as bad?

And to those of you saying China is so awesome because they don't tax property, don't forget that the Chinese government has stolen land outright throughout the years from millions of its people. They might not tax you on it now, but if turns out they'd like to let GM put a factory on your land, you're shit out of luck.

[ctiger2]

Why are you guys hating on the property tax so much but you're fine with Ron Paul's suggestion of collecting revenue through tariffs? Either way property is being taxed. The only difference in Ron Paul's suggestion is that it's taxed at the time of changing ownership, so I guess it doesn't feel as bad?

Tariffs are on IMPORTED goods. These tariffs are a 1 time tax.
Property taxes are on land that can't be exported. I pay yearly property taxes.

Maybe every imported good everyone buys should be taxed yearly?

[Anti Federalist]

No, you're nothing more than a serf.

Try not paying property tax for a year.

You'll quickly find who really owns your land.

[furface]

A bit socialistic? That is straight out of Karl Marx Communist Manifesto. Land "reform" is the foundation for most communist revolutions and the first thing that they do once they win. This is the polar opposite of a libertarian position.

You clearly haven't thought through some of the issues surrounding libertarianism. First of all the interaction between ownership and the State is not very well defined in an absolute sense. States enforce ownership, so it is somewhat arbitrary for the State to decide in the cases of natural resources who should own them or not.

If you look at records for UK history, the Queen of England should "own" half of Britain and a good part of the rest of the world. Just because some arbitrary deed from a hundred years ago says that somebody is entitled to exclusive use of a part of the Earth, it doesn't morally mean their descendants should have that use in perpetuity.

Certainly enough land to support ones family should be secured and irrevocable. However, it's very difficult to come up with a reason from natural rights that would justify the State protecting a single individual's right to exclusive use of millions of acres of land/water or entire mines for a private individual's use.

People absolutely have a right to their own labor and the benefits of their labor without confiscation in the form of taxation or otherwise. However, claims that the State should use violence to protect huge caches of natural resources for single individuals are extremely dubious. Remember, "ownership" implies that the State will use violence to enforce such rights.

Unequal entitlement to natural resources is actually a very statist concept, essentially saying that the state should intervene to enforce unequal distribution of natural resources.

[Jack Bauer]

Why are you guys hating on the property tax so much but you're fine with Ron Paul's suggestion of collecting revenue through tariffs? Either way property is being taxed. The only difference in Ron Paul's suggestion is that it's taxed at the time of changing ownership, so I guess it doesn't feel as bad?

And to those of you saying China is so awesome because they don't tax property, don't forget that the Chinese government has stolen land outright throughout the years from millions of its people. They might not tax you on it now, but if turns out they'd like to let GM put a factory on your land, you're shit out of luck.


Tarrifs, revenue or protective, are only applied when products are transferred between market entities i.e., only during commercial activity.

Property taxes are collected even if you have no intention of selling your property and are just sitting on it and there is no "commerce" in process.

[AZKing]

The county owns your property, not you.

[BenIsForRon]

I definitely think property tax should be reformed, as in agriculture and other rural property should have very little tax, if any. But local governments need to collect revenue somehow, and if they tax the shopping mall for their giant parking lot I'm not gonna bitch too much.

[freshjiva]

The worst thing about property taxes is that they are based on an appraisal value.

In other words, you get taxed based on what some unelected bureaucrat says your home is worth, and let me tell you, from my experience, they don't care about the real estate market. They make up their own numbers. Hmm, I definitely don't see a conflict of interest here. Does anyone else? :rolleyes:

Imagine if sales taxes were assessed on what the government thinks the item is worth instead of what you actually paid for.

This is why I don't like the whole "States rights" argument either. Government is government. I agree local government is better than federal, but either way, there's always someone trying to put their hands in your pocket.

[doodle]

A large portion of property taxes typically go to public dronification (aka schools). Getting rid of that mandate would be a good first step.

So people who don't have kids in these schools are subsidising other people's kids expenses? Isn't that socialism in concept?

[speciallyblend]

Why are you guys hating on the property tax so much but you're fine with Ron Paul's suggestion of collecting revenue through tariffs? Either way property is being taxed. The only difference in Ron Paul's suggestion is that it's taxed at the time of changing ownership, so I guess it doesn't feel as bad?

And to those of you saying China is so awesome because they don't tax property, don't forget that the Chinese government has stolen land outright throughout the years from millions of its people. They might not tax you on it now, but if turns out they'd like to let GM put a factory on your land, you're shit out of luck.

2 things the chinese gov and us gov have in common f'in its people!!

[demolama]

Tariff is not a direct tax on the people. Property tax is

[Lmata]

T

Imagine if sales taxes were assessed on what the government thinks the item is worth instead of what you actually paid for.
.


They do this in Texas for car sales. I just bought a car for less than the blue book. It needed a good cleaning on the inside and had several dents on the body. Well, went to pay tax and had to pay on the "value" rather than sales price. The only way around it would have been to get it appraised at a dealership.

We are now giving a vehicle to a good friend of ours. Yep, they have to pay sales tax on the car even though there was no money that changed hands. It isn't even a barter type situation. You can't get around it unless you give it to a family member. If I were to sell the car it would sell for about $500 but will be "taxed" on $1700.

[BenIsForRon]

Tariff is not a direct tax on the people. Property tax is

If you don't pay a tariff you get thrown in jail. I would call that a direct tax. Same outcome as if you didn't pay property tax.

[AdamT]

You might own the house itself, but you sure as hell don't own what the house is sitting on. The whole idea of "buying land" is the biggest scam. First you pay out the ass to "buy" it, then enter into a lifetime of servitude rent payments to the government landlord. How is that owning the land?

[heavenlyboy34]

Property taxes = renting from government. Therefore we do not have private property rights in most states. Until that changes, the US as a free country is a sham.

This^^

[HOLLYWOOD]

Remember...

Beginning January 1, 2013, ObamaCare imposes a 3.8% Medicare tax on unearned income, including the sale of single family homes, townhouses, co-ops, condominiums, and even rental income.


Do you see the Republicrats ending that now?

[LibertyRevolution]

....buy some land get an Allodial title for it.

We have a winner.


Here is a video I just cut and uploaded to youtube to help explain.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-CjGXuf-8M

[ord33]

Remember...

Beginning January 1, 2013, ObamaCare imposes a 3.8% Medicare tax on unearned income, including the sale of single family homes, townhouses, co-ops, condominiums, and even rental income.


Do you see the Republicrats ending that now?

The 3.8% Medicare Tax on all real estate transactions isn't true. It would, however, effect a very small portion of people that are high income earners and see a substantial capital gain in the sale. So right now, it effects only an extremely small percentage of people. I agree though, things usually start out this way, then expand more and more until it effects a much higher portion of our population.

http://thefinancebuff.com/3-8-medicare-tax-on-unearned-income-in-health-care-reform-bill.html

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/realestate.asp

[demolama]

If you don't pay a tariff you get thrown in jail. I would call that a direct tax. Same outcome as if you didn't pay property tax.

What human pays a tariff on imports and exports? Merchants and other corporations only pay tariffs so they can resell the import to the American consumer. People who chose to buy an item that is imported might be forced to pay a higher cost to compensate for the tariff but that's reflective on the price of the item and does not effect people who chose not to purchase the imported item. There is no jail for not paying a higher price or buying it on sale.

This is why for 150+ years the tariff was the only legal form of taxation for federal revenue because it wasn't a direct tax on the people but a tax on imported goods that merchant importers paid. Could merchants go to jail for selling non-taxed items? Yes, but its because of their business not because of them specifically buying imported goods for their own consumption.


http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north18.html

[daviddee]

...

[nobody's_hero]

If it were a tax, why wouldn't you just pay it once like you do if you buy a candy bar from the corner store?

Being taxed every year is rent. So technically, I'd say you don't really own your house.

[Freedom 4 all]

2 things the chinese gov and us gov have in common f'in its people!!

How about every government that has ever or will ever exist anywhere in the world?

[hazek]

To answer the OP question: yes you own your house but not the land property it's built on :/

[Travlyr]

There is a tangible cost of protecting property. The entity that protects your property against trespasses and illegal seizure has a valid case for being compensated. If you do that yourself, then maybe you shouldn't have to pay property taxes.

Unvoluntary levies for things like schools, fire protection, police "protection" are of course absurd.

There is also the issue of the natural right to enough land and resources to support yourself and your family. This may sound a bit socialistic, but people should not have to be a slave for most of their lives in order to get the resources necessary to survive. I know it sounds a lot like "land reform" for socialist leaning countries, but I personally believe that enough land to keep a house and/or small farm is a natural right of being alive. If people all had this without property taxes and mortgages, there wouldn't be this huge need for social welfare systems stealing money from one group to entitle others.

I agree that enough land to keep a house and/or a small farm is a natural right. Property taxes make controlling people easier for the State. They can tax and spend the money on public schooling or whatever. Allodial title gives the property owner sovereignty and security. Since the State can take the property for non-payment of taxes, then they own the property.

[Krugerrand]

They do this in Texas for car sales. I just bought a car for less than the blue book. It needed a good cleaning on the inside and had several dents on the body. Well, went to pay tax and had to pay on the "value" rather than sales price. The only way around it would have been to get it appraised at a dealership.

We are now giving a vehicle to a good friend of ours. Yep, they have to pay sales tax on the car even though there was no money that changed hands. It isn't even a barter type situation. You can't get around it unless you give it to a family member. If I were to sell the car it would sell for about $500 but will be "taxed" on $1700.

My apologies for going on a tangent with this one.

In JJ Luna's book on privacy, he talks about setting up car ownership by though an LLC. If the LLC owns the car - you can sell the LLC and the car just goes along as one of the assets. I don't think it then gets taxed, since the car does not change ownership.

DYODD

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312319061.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312319061/eindotcom-20

[AtomiC]

I believe that emminent domain should be abolished.

You should not have to pay taxes to the government if you own the property. Its akin to the mafia demanding 'protection' money from businesses or else harassment ensues.

[Bryan]

Go to Nevada, buy some land get an Allodial title for it.

Technically, you can get Allodial title in Texas too-- but I'm not sure how to get it in either state.


To the OP question- No.

[stuntman stoll]

To answer the OP question: yes you own your house but not the land property it's built on :/

You do not own your house. You pay rent (tax) on that too. That tax assessed value is based on the land and buildings. You want to make some improvements? Yep, your rent goes up.

[Howard_Roark]

If it were a tax, why wouldn't you just pay it once like you do if you buy a candy bar from the corner store?

Being taxed every year is rent. So technically, I'd say you don't really own your house.

I really agree with this. Tax is usually a transaction based thing, ie your employer pays you and then they take x amount out and then its yours. Same with buying a car, you pay a flat sales tax and its yours. I know in China, there is a transaction tax when you buy it then its yours, then no more (though this is changing in some places apparently). When you have to continually pay money to live in a place, it's obviously a form of rent you pay the government.

[ChaosControl]

Nope.
Private property is a myth, it doesn't exist anywhere.

[RyanRSheets]

Does the bank actually own your home if the money they loaned you was magically created out of thin air?

[ChaosControl]

There is also the issue of the natural right to enough land and resources to support yourself and your family. This may sound a bit socialistic, but people should not have to be a slave for most of their lives in order to get the resources necessary to survive. I know it sounds a lot like "land reform" for socialist leaning countries, but I personally believe that enough land to keep a house and/or small farm is a natural right of being alive. If people all had this without property taxes and mortgages, there wouldn't be this huge need for social welfare systems stealing money from one group to entitle others.

I rather like this. Basically you just have a plot of land you can live on and such, we shouldn't even really need to worry about ownership of it. Basically as long as you live on it and such, you can keep control of it. Everyone should be able to live a self sustainable lifestyle without having to be a slave to some corporation to be able to purchase the land to do so, of which as this topic demonstrates we don't own anyway.

[Romulus]

That problem is when someones natural right to land conflicts with your land... who wins out? This then abolishes all private property, since I have a 'natural right' to your land.

[Zippyjuan]

Renters are paying property taxes too- you aren't avoiding it by continuing to rent. You pay the property taxes for the person you rent from. You are also making their mortgage payment for them (if they still owe on it), paying for upkeep, and tossing in a profit margin for them. Might as well cut out the middle man by buying (if you can afford to) and keep the profit portion as well as ownership of the property for yourself. Once you do get the mortgage paid for, your disposable income goes up (actually it is your expensed going down which is the same net effect as a heathy pay raise). Then you still have the title to an asset which can later be resold if necessary. Or keep renting and get nothing for it and never have that expense go down. I'll have mine paid off in about two more years. Then my disposable income will go up by about 30%.

California property taxes are not based on apraisals but on selling prices. If you don't sell your property, the most they can raise the property tax is two percent a year. If the property is resold, the taxes are based on the new value it sold at. Property taxes in California are thus lower than in many states including Texas.

[ChaosControl]

That problem is when someones natural right to land conflicts with your land... who wins out? This then abolishes all private property, since I have a 'natural right' to your land.

Probably wouldn't have ownership of land in general. People live on land and use land, land not being lived on or used would be open for someone to come along and live on it and use it. You control it as long as you make use of it, once you no longer make use of it you no longer have control of it.

I'm not sure really, I haven't considered it significantly or how it'd work.

[nobody's_hero]

I really agree with this. Tax is usually a transaction based thing, ie your employer pays you and then they take x amount out and then its yours. Same with buying a car, you pay a flat sales tax and its yours. I know in China, there is a transaction tax when you buy it then its yours, then no more (though this is changing in some places apparently). When you have to continually pay money to live in a place, it's obviously a form of rent you pay the government.

Oh yeah, this is changing in the U.S. apparently.

Similar situation:

Georgia just recently put to a ballot proposition a removal of the inventory tax on Georgia's merchants. It passed. (46-keep the tax, 54-abolish). Almost half of the voters fail to see that being taxed for an inventory that a merchant has already paid taxes on when he purchased the goods, is at best harmful to business and at worst, it equates to double-jeopardy (but none dare call it such).

EDITED: Had the wrong vote results.

[TruckinMike]

//

[Theocrat]

If you have to pay property taxes, of course it means you don't own your house (assuming the house is paid off). Because most of the money from property taxes goes towards funding public schools, the sad fact is homeschooling & private schooling households have to pay twice for education: once for funding public schools (which they don't use), and once for funding the private education of their own children. That's definitely unjust.

[satchelmcqueen]

no. you dont own your own property. i own my land and home out right. all paid off. but if i miss paying my propertry tax for a year or 2...i lose it all. god forbid i ever get sick or lose my job. one day it will happen. im sure at the very best, the nursing home or some hospital will own it one day.