MSM: "Japanese behave themselves during crisis unlike US and Haiti"

[Matt Collins]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/japan-victims-show-resilience-earthquake-tsunami-sign-sense/story?id=13135355

Japanese, Waiting in Line for Hours, Follow Social Order After Quake



Overnight and into the grey, chilly morning, long lines formed outside small convenience stores and supermarkets throughout the tsunami-ravaged city of Sendai.

At one, Daiei, the orderly lines had begun 12 hours before the shop opened and stretched for blocks.

Despite the line's length everyone remained calm and polite.



As Japanese survivors cope with food and gasoline shortages amidst the aftershocks and rising body count, they draw on a sense of social order. Unlike scenes in natural disasters in Haiti and New Orleans, there is little anger, no looting.



Neighbors are willing to share with others and are cutting back on energy use on their own to limit the need for rotating blackouts.

[sevin]

That's pretty cool.

[eOs]

This is a benefit of their homogeneous population and their strong culture values, common sense and understanding the benefits of working together in a situation that hasn't hit critical mass. The situations were also very different in Haiti--a third world instable and impoverished already before the disaster. But I would argue they aren't at the tipping point yet. Government is making it seem like they have this under control and the people are under a potential false sense of security. Social order will break when it needs to.

[Matt Collins]

That's pretty cool.
Not sure how I feel about it. It's great that people aren't whigging out and rioting and looting etc. It's great that they are bonding together and forming stronger communities. It's how things should be, spontaneous order, people helping people, etc.

However a vibe that I get is that rebellion of any kind in their culture is against social norms and causes ostracization to the point of being completely rejected from their society. Simply put, does it seem to you that conformatiy seems to be mandatory?


What is the media's agenda in the writing and publishing of this article?

[Anti Federalist]

Not sure how I feel about it. It's great that people aren't whigging out and rioting and looting etc. It's great that they are bonding together and forming stronger communities.

However a vibe that I get is that rebellion of any kind in their culture is against social norms and causes ostracization to the point of being completely rejected from their society. Simply put, does it seem to you that conformatiy seems to be mandatory?

That ^^^

[idirtify]

I’m saying Japan's high percent of atheism underlies their more moral behavior.

http://www.japan-guide.com/topic/0002.html
see the five charts on the left side of the page

here are the first three:

What religions do you belong to?
None: 52.4% (largest category)

Are you religious?
No: 55.3% (largest category)

How important is religion in your daily life?
Not important: 50% (largest category)

[crazyfacedjenkins]

I’m saying Japan's high percent of atheism underlies their more moral behavior.

http://www.japan-guide.com/topic/0002.html
see the five charts on the left side of the page

here are the first three:

What religions do you belong to?
None: 52.4% (largest category)

Are you religious?
No: 55.3% (largest category)

How important is religion in your daily life?
Not important: 50% (largest category)

Agreed. Is it no coincidence having so few religious nutballs creates a more polite, civilized and moral culture?

[chudrockz]

I’m saying Japan's high percent of atheism underlies their more moral behavior.

http://www.japan-guide.com/topic/0002.html
see the five charts on the left side of the page

here are the first three:

What religions do you belong to?
None: 52.4% (largest category)

Are you religious?
No: 55.3% (largest category)

How important is religion in your daily life?
Not important: 50% (largest category)

I'll wait - I don't suppose it will be long - for some believer in a Fairy Tale to come along and say that this post is another REASON why Japan was hit.

[AParadigmShift]

Japanese culture respecting politeness is ancient and highly scripted, a religion unto itself, a veritable art form.

Made right or wrong by long years, who's to say? other than it works for them.

[freejack]

Ask them if they believe in the supernatural and you get a different set of numbers:

http://www.japanprobe.com/2008/06/01/56-of-japanese-have-had-some-form-of-supernatural-experience/

The orderliness has nothing to do with their supposed 'lack' of religion but more with their culture as others have stated.

[silverhandorder]

While in the beginning it does sound as if Japanese are highly collectivist(they may very well be) the order is achieved because of other factors. I believe the culture of respect goes a long way in maintaining order. It would be interesting to see what is the corruption index in Japan compared to the west. They do not have problems with frivolous divide and conquer that is promoted in our country. Democrats say to their base that they are oppressed by republicans, religious and the "rich". The republicans tell their base that they are hated by the feminists, gays, poor and minorities. It is easy for one to feel little respect for the community when you have two major parties preaching hate.

I don't know why Haiti is even brought up as an example. They are poor and have tyrant ruling over them. I am sure there is very little culture that can be achieved under such circumstances.

[South Park Fan]

Has Japan ever had a revolution? As far as I can recall, they've had the same royal family since the beginning of their civilization and all governmental changes have just been occasional coups by the shoguns.

[idirtify]

Ask them if they believe in the supernatural and you get a different set of numbers:

http://www.japanprobe.com/2008/06/01/56-of-japanese-have-had-some-form-of-supernatural-experience/

The orderliness has nothing to do with their supposed 'lack' of religion but more with their culture as others have stated.

So are you arguing that their orderliness has nothing to do with their supposed 'lack' of religion but more with their culture, or that they are really more religious than normally portrayed? Those are two contrasting arguments; you can’t credibly argue both of them.

Here it looks like you are trying to dispute Japan's high percent of atheism:
From your link:
“56 percent claimed to have had some form of supernatural experience.”
If that’s your basis, I’d say it’s pretty weak; an attempt to paint the Japanese as more religious. And where is the actual survey? I wonder if the article is accurately translating the question, and I wonder how the question was actually phrased.

[Freedom 4 all]

Not sure how I feel about it. It's great that people aren't whigging out and rioting and looting etc. It's great that they are bonding together and forming stronger communities. It's how things should be, spontaneous order, people helping people, etc.

However a vibe that I get is that rebellion of any kind in their culture is against social norms and causes ostracization to the point of being completely rejected from their society. Simply put, does it seem to you that conformatiy seems to be mandatory?


What is the media's agenda in the writing and publishing of this article?

It's an extremely restrictive culture. Not sure what the government is like, but the cultural psyche is extremely hostile to individuality. Whereas an American would say "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" the Japanese expression is "The nail that sticks out gets pounded down." While I suppose it is admirable in that the Japanese achieve this kind of conformity without a grotesquely violent police force like China, friends of freedom have little to learn from/emulate in the Japanese.

[00_Pete]

I'll wait - I don't suppose it will be long - for some believer in a Fairy Tale to come along and say that this post is another REASON why Japan was hit.

No. I will say you militant-atheists are retardedly obsessed with religion...

[freejack]

So are you arguing that their orderliness has nothing to do with their supposed 'lack' of religion but more with their culture, or that they are really more religious than normally portrayed? Those are two contrasting arguments; you can’t credibly argue both of them.

Here it looks like you are trying to dispute Japan's high percent of atheism:
From your link:
“56 percent claimed to have had some form of supernatural experience.”
If that’s your basis, I’d say it’s pretty weak; an attempt to paint the Japanese as more religious. And where is the actual survey? I wonder if the article is accurately translating the question, and I wonder how the question was actually phrased.

You made two claims: 1) that most Japanese are atheists and 2) it is because of their atheism that they are morally superior. I'm saying you're wrong on both counts. You assume that just because the Japanese claim to not be religious, this automatically makes them atheist when in fact, most Japanese are superstitious to some degree. As for your claim about atheism and morals, there is no basis for your assumption other than your own biases. Others in this thread have made excellent points as to why the Japanese behave as they do.

[00_Pete]

It's an extremely restrictive culture. Not sure what the government is like, but the cultural psyche is extremely hostile to individuality.

Who are you to say what is "individuality" and what isnt? WTF??? Ever heard the expression "No man is an island"?

Who says that those poor opressed robots (you know better than them i guess...) who conform are not voluntarely conforming?

[sailingaway]

Meh, the Katrina folks in Mississippi etc were just great. It has to do with poverty and lack of options. Those left in New Orleans had a lot of the former and little of the latter, or they wouldn't have been there.

Not to say culture isn't a great help, but the extremes were exacerbated for other reasons.

[chudrockz]

No. I will say you militant-atheists are retardedly obsessed with religion...

I'm not personally even remotely "obsessed" with it, though I *am* curious as to why anyone would espouse it.

To me, belief in God, or Buddha, or Allah, or Yaweh, is identical to believe in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, or that talking piece of poop on South Park. It just makes absolutely no sense.

[00_Pete]

I'm not personally even remotely "obsessed" with it, though I *am* curious as to why anyone would espouse it.

To me, belief in God, or Buddha, or Allah, or Yaweh, is identical to believe in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, or that talking piece of poop on South Park. It just makes absolutely no sense.

If you are "freethinkers" how come you all say the same sh*t and think the same sh*t? It just makes absolutely no sense.

[sirgonzo420]

I'm not personally even remotely "obsessed" with it, though I *am* curious as to why anyone would espouse it.

To me, belief in God, or Buddha, or Allah, or Yaweh, is identical to believe in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, or that talking piece of poop on South Park. It just makes absolutely no sense.

I implore you not to confuse God (or, perhaps more appropriately, "that which men have called God") with religion.

[South Park Fan]

Probably another reason that Japan hasn't been seeing chaos is because they didn't declare martial law when the earthquake hit, like Bush did during Hurricane Katrina.

[RokiLothbard]

Good for them. Sincerely. I don't see why anything else needs to be said about this.

[Fox McCloud]

Leave it to idirtify to attempt to link atheism with their moral behavior in a time of calamity...it's almost comical.

In any event, Freedom 4 All hit the nail on the head (no pun intended)--the Japanese culture has a blind desire for conformity and likeness---not just in cultural identity or government (as Americans seem to want), but in personal behavior and uniqueness--it's not uncommon to see an entire group of friends dressed exactly alike with the same hairstyle, glasses, and so on and so forth.

This all likely originates from their cultural heritage and hierarchy of almost godlike reverence for the warrior class (Samurai) and the tradition of obeying his every word--combine this with an incredible amount of "respect" tradition and obsession with orderliness...and it's not surprising this is the end result.

While it does have certain positive aspects, I'm not sure the end goal is necessarily good; it's fairly common for Japanese individuals and businessmen to commit suicide when they fail. Is this really a good thing? Would we be as far as we are today if American innovators and businessmen committed suicide because they "dishonored their family" by failing at a certain task? We probably wouldn't have invented the lightbulb as early as we did if this was our identity.

Likewise, it would probably create a society where ideas like Keynesianism (which tends to appeal towards collective action) would never be challenged on day to day basis, nor would ideas like the nature of government, the necessity of the state....etc.

Just my opinion, but I don't think it would be an, overall, positive thing---there may be some aspects that are positive, but I can't see the overall aspect as positive.


I'd like to note I have nothing against the Japanese at all, I just view aspects of their culture at flawed, just as I see aspects of American culture as flawed.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Where the fuck is that racist Maxine Waters? She's quick to give Haiti all sorts of USAID... even having US Taxpayers pickup Billions in debt that Haiti owed other nations and foreign creditors.

Not a peep out of her... I wonder why?

It's culture...

[susano]

I’m saying Japan's high percent of atheism underlies their more moral behavior.

http://www.japan-guide.com/topic/0002.html
see the five charts on the left side of the page

here are the first three:

What religions do you belong to?
None: 52.4% (largest category)

Are you religious?
No: 55.3% (largest category)

How important is religion in your daily life?
Not important: 50% (largest category)

I corrected you on this, on another thread, last night. You are projecting. Those answers about not being religious are not an indicator of atheism. You cannot wish it and make it so.

[idirtify]

You made two claims: 1) that most Japanese are atheists and 2) it is because of their atheism that they are morally superior. I'm saying you're wrong on both counts. You assume that just because the Japanese claim to not be religious, this automatically makes them atheist when in fact, most Japanese are superstitious to some degree. As for your claim about atheism and morals, there is no basis for your assumption other than your own biases. Others in this thread have made excellent points as to why the Japanese behave as they do.

Fair enough about making both arguments. So let’s go with them.

First, let me address your disagreement with Japan being mostly atheist. Again, where is the survey? The wording and translation of the question is important. All you have as the basis for your disagreement is this commentary. For example, what was the Japanese word that supposedly meant “superstition”? And besides, is “superstitious” really equivalent to “religious”?

Second, I realize there have been other opinions voiced here about why the Japanese are acting more moral than other nations in crisis situations. But that doesn’t necessarily negate my opinion, which has plenty of validity. And regarding the main one of those other opinions, it has its problems: 1) looting has absolutely nothing to do with individualism; 2) voluntary conformity has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of individualism; 3) and non-violent peer pressure is not aggression, but IS a very good way (superior to Statism) for a society to enforce/prevent rights violations.

edit: Now after a little research into Japanese “religions”, I can add to my point about whether “superstitious” equals “religious”. Shintoism and Buddhism has no supreme moral god. Shintoism has a belief in "kami" (spirits or minor gods) but no single ruler or omnipotent being. Buddhism has Buddha, but he isn’t worshiped as a supreme being; only understood as a collection of wisdom. So technically, a Shintoist or Buddhist could still be an atheist.

[AuH20]

It's an extremely restrictive culture. Not sure what the government is like, but the cultural psyche is extremely hostile to individuality. Whereas an American would say "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" the Japanese expression is "The nail that sticks out gets pounded down." While I suppose it is admirable in that the Japanese achieve this kind of conformity without a grotesquely violent police force like China, friends of freedom have little to learn from/emulate in the Japanese.

The Japanese actually have a relatively intact family unit as opposed to the dysfunctional chaos we have over here. That partially explains why they're calm, collected and composed & not looking to plunder their neighbor's goods at the first sign of discomfort. There's a part of me that fears for the west in that regard. Let's face it. A materially obsessed and soulless America is the land of the lost children. Tyler Durden basically reiterated this point.

[00_Pete]

The Japanese actually have a relatively intact family unit as opposed to the dysfunctional chaos we have over here. That partially explains why they're calm, collected and composed & not looking to plunder their neighbor's goods at the first sign of discomfort. There's a part of me that fears for the west in that regard. Let's face it. A materially obsessed and soulless America is the land of the lost children. Tyler Durden basically reiterated this point.

Yep. The whole "be different" thing is what destroys societies.

[AuH20]

Yep. The whole "be different" thing is what destroys societies.

It's not even that. Individual expression is an asset, but much of this rebellious nature we see isn't even founded on conscious, logical thought on behalf of the individual. It's not even authentic.

[susano]

It's an extremely restrictive culture. Not sure what the government is like, but the cultural psyche is extremely hostile to individuality. Whereas an American would say "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" the Japanese expression is "The nail that sticks out gets pounded down." While I suppose it is admirable in that the Japanese achieve this kind of conformity without a grotesquely violent police force like China, friends of freedom have little to learn from/emulate in the Japanese.

I disagree. I think it's arrogant to think that such an old culture and people have nothing to offer or to learn from. Some of things that we could learn:

Organization
Self sufficiency
Community spirit
Respect for others

None of those things are contrary to individualism and freedom.

[00_Pete]

It's not even that. Individual expression is an asset, but much of this rebellious nature we see isn't even founded on conscious, logical thought on behalf of the individual. It's not even authentic.

Exactly. I agree. One thing is being different. Other thing is to think "i want to be different just to standout/be cool/piss people of/etc".

[susano]

Probably another reason that Japan hasn't been seeing chaos is because they didn't declare martial law when the earthquake hit, like Bush did during Hurricane Katrina.


Indeed. The water trucks weren't turned around once they reached Sendai and sent to another city 1000 miles away.

[idirtify]

I disagree. I think it's arrogant to think that such an old culture and people have nothing to offer or to learn from. Some of things that we could learn:

Organization
Self sufficiency
Community spirit
Respect for others

None of those things are contrary to individualism and freedom.

How true! And yes, everyone is certainly learning some things from these great people lately (except how to handle nuclear energy).

[Tal]

I think the Japanese cultural trait of being very obedient is over the top, they had the same political party in charge for like 50 years or more? I also remember seeing an episode of Top Gear where these british guys went to Japan and they were reprimanded on the train by one of the other passengers because they were talking on the cellphone in the train, I mean that is just completely ridicilous, if you cant talk on a cellphone then I guess talking at all should be forbidden also? I also remember how the Japs stood while waiting for the train, they had little straight lines on the floor of the train station and everyone stood in between those lines even before the train was even there lol...

I like the more rebellious and individualistic western culture alot more which I think originates from our christian heritage since christianity is at its core a pretty anti-state religion (the state killed Jesus after all).

I do appreciate them being respectful of private property in a time of crisis though, certain groups of people in the US could learn a thing or two from that.

[00_Pete]

I think the Japanese cultural trait of being very obedient is over the top, they had the same political party in charge for like 50 years or more? I also remember seeing an episode of Top Gear where these british guys went to Japan and they were reprimanded on the train by one of the other passengers because they were talking on the cellphone in the train, I mean that is just completely ridicilous, if you cant talk on a cellphone then I guess talking at all should be forbidden also? I also remember how the Japs stood while waiting for the train, they had little straight lines on the floor of the train station and everyone stood in between those lines even before the train was even there lol...

I like the more rebellious and individualistic western culture alot more which I think originates from our christian heritage since christianity is at its core a pretty anti-state religion (the state killed Jesus after all).

I do appreciate them being respectful of private property in a time of crisis though, certain groups of people in the US could learn a thing or two from that.

And yet Top Gear (who are just 3 no-talent script-reading trained monkeys) were caught several times staging/faking things and seliing them to the public as real and spntaneous and suffered no repercussions. In fact even fake no-talent Jeremy Wankson newspaper columns are written with the help of ghost-writers.

In Japan there is no such things (yet).

[libertygrl]

I’m saying Japan's high percent of atheism underlies their more moral behavior.

http://www.japan-guide.com/topic/0002.html
see the five charts on the left side of the page

here are the first three:

What religions do you belong to?
None: 52.4% (largest category)

Are you religious?
No: 55.3% (largest category)

How important is religion in your daily life?
Not important: 50% (largest category)

So if i understood you correctly what you're saying is that if you have a belief in God or a higher power, you're LESS MORAL than those who don't? You sound like one of those self righteous christian fanatics you despise so much.

I find it utterly hypocritical that some people on these forums who are supposedly pro-liberty, are quick to defend Muslims (which I do myself) when the media and some conservatives paint the Islamic religion with a broad brush as being fanatical and uncivilized, yet those same people have no problem doing the same thing when it comes to Christians. The key word here is fanatical and they exist in any group.

Let me remind you that the first people to reach out to those who become victims of natural disasters, are usually religious organizations. If it weren't for them in Louisiana helping after Katrina, the people there would have been much worse off due to the incompetence of the federal government in its lack of immediate response. The areas where bad behavior, looting, etc., occurs, usually happens because of poverty and other factors.

By the way, church attendance in America has dramatically decreased over the recent past compared to 30 or 40 years ago. Would you say that people today treat each other with more civility and respect, and are guided by good moral principles today compared to our parents or grandparents generation? I certainly don't think so.

Looting:
The scant research that has been done outside the U.S. suggests that it only happens in a major way when three other pre-existing conditions are met:
1. Dramatic disparity between rich and poor.
2. High levels of petty crime and gang activity.
3. An ineffective and corrupt police force.
http://www.amandaripley.com/blog/why_do_people_loot/

Why do we expect people to behave otherwise? When humans endure trauma and stress, they are usually quiet, passive and obedient. That’s not because they are superhuman. That’s because in most circumstances, it is in their survival interest to gather information and help each other.
It reminds me of the way some reporters tend to marvel at how “articulate” an African-American official can be, or how “normal” a gay couple turns out to be. We reveal ourselves with words like these. Clearly, culture matters. And the Japanese are famously resilient in many ways. Their building codes, preparedness drills and support networks have been--and should continue to be--models for the rest of us. But let’s start expecting decency from the public--and planning for it well before we need it most. http://www.amandaripley.com/blog/japan_and_the_cliche_of_stoicism/

[UtahApocalypse]

Just wait until hunger sets in......

[libertygrl]

Not sure how I feel about it. It's great that people aren't whigging out and rioting and looting etc. It's great that they are bonding together and forming stronger communities. It's how things should be, spontaneous order, people helping people, etc.

However a vibe that I get is that rebellion of any kind in their culture is against social norms and causes ostracization to the point of being completely rejected from their society. Simply put, does it seem to you that conformatiy seems to be mandatory?


What is the media's agenda in the writing and publishing of this article?

That's an excellent point Matt. I think it's more than just coincidence too. Wonder if they're just trying to guilt Americans into submission should the #$% hits the fan. lol!

[00_Pete]

Just wait until hunger sets in......

Very true, very true :)

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Leave it to idirtify to attempt to link atheism with their moral behavior in a time of calamity...it's almost comical.

In any event, Freedom 4 All hit the nail on the head (no pun intended)--the Japanese culture has a blind desire for conformity and likeness---not just in cultural identity or government (as Americans seem to want), but in personal behavior and uniqueness--it's not uncommon to see an entire group of friends dressed exactly alike with the same hairstyle, glasses, and so on and so forth.


Are you sure you didn't mean American culture? Have you gone to a fucking bar lately?



This all likely originates from their cultural heritage and hierarchy of almost godlike reverence for the warrior class (Samurai) and the tradition of obeying his every word--combine this with an incredible amount of "respect" tradition and obsession with orderliness...and it's not surprising this is the end result.


How many war's has America been in since its inception? American history is nothing but war. To boot, we have to hear about every few months when some dipshit releases another WWII movie. Which Americans appear to gobble right up.



While it does have certain positive aspects, I'm not sure the end goal is necessarily good; it's fairly common for Japanese individuals and businessmen to commit suicide when they fail. Is this really a good thing? Would we be as far as we are today if American innovators and businessmen committed suicide because they "dishonored their family" by failing at a certain task? We probably wouldn't have invented the lightbulb as early as we did if this was our identity.

Likewise, it would probably create a society where ideas like Keynesianism (which tends to appeal towards collective action) would never be challenged on day to day basis, nor would ideas like the nature of government, the necessity of the state....etc.

Just my opinion, but I don't think it would be an, overall, positive thing---there may be some aspects that are positive, but I can't see the overall aspect as positive.


I'd like to note I have nothing against the Japanese at all, I just view aspects of their culture at flawed, just as I see aspects of American culture as flawed.

Actually, until the early 90s, Japan was FAR more capitalistic than the US. It still is amongst the citizens who have much higher savings rates than most Americans, how the hell do you think their government can afford the bailouts of the lost decade? It did it on the backs of the Japanese savers.

[fisharmor]

Japan also has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, especially among industrialized countries.
Look up a place called Aokigahara forest some time.

But hey, all that atheist conformity is good for you.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Japan also has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, especially among industrialized countries.
Look up a place called Aokigahara forest some time.

But hey, all that atheist conformity is good for you.

While our murder rate towers over everyone else, some of that fine Christian morels in action.

[JohnEngland]

I’m saying Japan's high percent of atheism underlies their more moral behavior.

http://www.japan-guide.com/topic/0002.html
see the five charts on the left side of the page

here are the first three:

What religions do you belong to?
None: 52.4% (largest category)

Are you religious?
No: 55.3% (largest category)

How important is religion in your daily life?
Not important: 50% (largest category)

Completely disagree. It's to do with cultural norms and social attitudes, not the fact that barely over 50% say no religion.

[susano]

Just wait until hunger sets in......


It has. Not starvation, by any means, but some going days without food. One of the cable news channels reported people rummaging through the wreckage looking for anything to eat.

All of you who say stuff like "just wait until..." seem to want to prove that the Japanese can be reduced to acting like the worst elements of American society during Katrina. I'm sure that anyone can snap under the most extreme misery, but if that happens in Japan it would not take away from the fact that their behavior has been nothing short of amazing. Their loved ones are missing or dead, their entire worlds and personal effects, washed away, they've been through a fucking nightmare surviving the horror of a massive earthquake followed by an apocalyptic wall of water. How would YOU be doing in that scenario of the worst, real life DOOM? If the time comes where they lose it, some of you will be all "I told you so", totally ignoring this incredible display of the BEST in human behavior under the worst of conditions.

[fisharmor]

While our murder rate towers over everyone else, some of that fine Christian morels in action.

I assume you don't intend to talk about mushrooms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morel).
Christians do not claim that murder is moral.
They might claim that killing is moral in some circumstances, but they generally make a distinction between murder and killing.

However, by extolling Japanese society as more moral than ours, you are in point of fact stating that extremely high suicide rates are a byproduct of higher morality.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

I assume you don't intend to talk about mushrooms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morel).
Christians do not claim that murder is moral.
They might claim that killing is moral in some circumstances, but they generally make a distinction between murder and killing.

However, by extolling Japanese society as more moral than ours, you are in point of fact stating that extremely high suicide rates are a byproduct of higher morality.

You missed the whole fucking point because you were too busy fixated on my spelling! You criticized them for being atheist. Big deal, they kill themselves a tiny bit more than everyone else, we fucking murder our own fellow citizens at extraordinary rates!!! What the fuck does that say about Christianity?????

You also called them conformist for being civilized. You want to talk about mindless conformist, just look at American culture. It's notorious for being full of violent, overweight, mindless, consumers.

[Keith and stuff]

The Japanese are used to forming long, calm lines. Every time a new tech gadget or big videogame is released, up to 100s of people form lines in up to 100s of places all over Japan.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Some people take an extremely admirable trait like being civilized and not killing and try to distort it as something negative. You should be fucking disgusted by your attitudes, some of the people on here need to do some serious self reflection. Hey Christian kooks, way to prove once again that you're judgmental hypocrites who live for schadenfreude, you sick sadist fucks.

[fisharmor]

You missed the whole fucking point because you were too busy fixated on my spelling! You criticized them for being atheist. Big deal, they kill themselves a tiny bit more than everyone else, we fucking murder our own fellow citizens at extraordinary rates!!!
LOL


What the fuck does that say about Christianity?????
Absolutely nothing. Thanks for playing. I have no consolation prize for non sequiturs.


You also called them conformist for being civilized.
Actually, I claimed that they had a high suicide rate for being conformist. Thanks for playing. I have no consolation prize for straw man.


You want to talk about mindless conformist, just look at American culture. It's notorious for being full of violent, overweight, mindless, consumers.
Hey, now, I already told you there's no non sequitur prize.

I don't need to prove that American society is better. That's not my point. My point is that Japanese society has some pretty fuckin' big problems of its own.
I'll take a little post-disaster looting (and a Glock) over a whole forest full of people who hanged themselves.

[One Last Battle!]

>They are morally superior because they are Atheist!

Yeah? Going by that, people in the Soviet Union (hell, even in modern Russia largely) ought to be some of the most upstanding people around, followed by people in Red China.

>They are great and we should emulate them! Look at how well behaved they are as they stand in line!

I can think of another group of orderly people who respond well to crisis and are willing to stand in long lines for basic neccesities; Soviets.

Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Soviets or Japanese. Hell, I have family in Russia. But I would say both societies have rather massive flaws that Americans would be better off not emulating.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Actually, I claimed that they had a high suicide rate for being conformist. Thanks for playing. I have no consolation prize for straw man.


It doesn't have a big problem, the suicide rate is not that high unless you are a tool who watches MSM sensationalize it. To the whole conformist bit, how does being polite make them conformist?



I don't need to prove that American society is better. That's not my point. My point is that Japanese society has some pretty fuckin' big problems of its own.
I'll take a little post-disaster looting (and a Glock) over a whole forest full of people who hanged themselves.

Fucking pathetic. Some people take an extremely admirable trait like being civilized and not killing and try to distort it as something negative. They should be fucking disgusted by their attitudes, some of the people on here need to do some serious self reflection. Hey Christian kooks, way to prove once again that you're judgmental hypocrites who live for schadenfreude, those sick sadist fucks.

[fisharmor]

It doesn't have a big problem, the suicide rate is not that high unless you are a tool who watches MSM sensationalize it.
Here's a link I really think you ought to follow.
http://tinyurl.com/yhrse3z


To the whole conformist bit, how does being polite make them conformist?
I never said that, either.
Though I would assert the reverse: their manners are very much a result of their conformity.


Fucking pathetic. Some people take an extremely admirable trait like being civilized and not killing and try to distort it as something negative.
Here's another link, indirectly relevant to your argument.
(Hint: focus on what the person saying these words is.)
http://tinyurl.com/4g6wg6s


They should be fucking disgusted by their attitudes, some of the people on here need to do some serious self reflection. Hey Christian kooks, way to prove once again that you're judgmental hypocrites who live for schadenfreude, those sick sadist fucks.

Judgmental? Hypocrite?
Let me quote scripture at you now:
Physician: heal thyself!

[madfoot]

While in the beginning it does sound as if Japanese are highly collectivist(they may very well be) the order is achieved because of other factors. I believe the culture of respect goes a long way in maintaining order. It would be interesting to see what is the corruption index in Japan compared to the west. They do not have problems with frivolous divide and conquer that is promoted in our country. Democrats say to their base that they are oppressed by republicans, religious and the "rich". The republicans tell their base that they are hated by the feminists, gays, poor and minorities. It is easy for one to feel little respect for the community when you have two major parties preaching hate.

I don't know why Haiti is even brought up as an example. They are poor and have tyrant ruling over them. I am sure there is very little culture that can be achieved under such circumstances.

I was thinking "individualist collectivism" might be a good way to describe Japan. I ran that through google, and it seems I'm not the first to have that feeling.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22individualist+collectivism%22

[crazyfacedjenkins]

I never said that, either.
Though I would assert the reverse: their manners are very much a result of their conformity.


What conformity? So they are conformist because you said so?

I wish more than anything that people like you, who make America a shithole, get taken up on your offer:


I'll take a little post-disaster looting (and a Glock) over a whole forest full of people who hanged themselves.

[susano]

No people or society are perfect. Most societies have something to teach others. The Japs have their problems but it's THIS situation, this crisis, that has shown what is amazing and admirable about them. We don't need to list the flaws to admire their composure and community spirit in a terrible, terrible time. In spite of the shortcomings of their kind of system and society, the values that have enabled them to keep their shit together NOW are very admirable.

[Grubb556]

Perhaps the Japanese know that they constantly live in risk of an earthquake and just accept that fact ?

Plus Japan's pretty crowded, where would you hide after you looted something?

[susano]

Perhaps the Japanese know that they constantly live in risk of an earthquake and just accept that fact ?

Plus Japan's pretty crowded, where would you hide after you looted something?

I think they just know that a dog eat dog attitude would be counter-productive and immoral.

This has been interesting for me to watch because I post at conspiracy boards where quite a few survivalist types post. The usual bent of TEOWAWKI conversions is "I've got my preps in order and anyone comes looking around here gets pumped full of lead", or something. They'll also say that they'll do whatever they have to do to get whatever they need to take care of them and theirs. Conversely, I saw the Japanese lined up at a store to get 10 items each. Both viewpoints have merit. It's just a matter of knowing of what works best and is most beneficial. See, many of these Japanese people may have had preps, too. The area around Sendai, outside of the city, is rural and everyone had gardens and greenhouses. That's very self sufficient. Those preps are gone, now. So, for the survivalist, THAT is the worst case scenario - all the well laid plans smashed to pieces. I guarantee that they would be wanting some of this civility in such a case. Therein lies a lesson about the value of (voluntary) community and helping others.

[fisharmor]

I wish more than anything that people like you, who make America a shithole, get taken up on your offer:

Hang on, I'm confused.
Do I make America a shithole because I support individuals being able to defend their property,
or do I make America a shithole because I don't want a forest of hanged people in America?
http://tinyurl.com/4areeat

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Hang on, I'm confused.
Do I make America a shithole because I support individuals being able to defend their property,
or do I make America a shithole because I don't want a forest of hanged people in America?
http://tinyurl.com/4areeat

If all you can say is that they have high suicide rates, you really don't have much. Is that somehow supposed to make the US look good with its 10k+ homicides a year?

By the way you ignored my questions: What conformity? So they are conformist because you said so?

[fisharmor]

If all you can say is that they have high suicide rates

More Japanese words that demonstrate their superior morality:
Karoshi
Inemuri
Sepukku
Bukkake
Hentai

Also, check it out:
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9
"Police discourage autopsies that might reveal a higher homicide rate in their jurisdiction, and pressure doctors to attribute unnatural deaths to health reasons, usually heart failure, the group alleges. Odds are, it says, that people are getting away with murder in Japan, a country that officially claims one of the lowest per capita homicide rates in the world."


By the way you ignored my questions: What conformity? So they are conformist because you said so?
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/Japan-Gun-Control-and-People-Control.htm

"Additionally, Japan's tight, conformist social culture does an excellent job of keeping citizens out of crime in the first place. As the head of Tokyo's Police Department explains, "A man who commits a crime will bring dishonor to his family and his village, so he will think twice about disgracing them." Having lived together for several thousand years without significant immigration, the Japanese have developed the world's most homogenous and unified society. "

Here's an abstract for a paper at the Oxford Journal:
http://bjc.oxfordjournals.org/content/39/3/369.abstract
" In Japan, the locality-based group formation causes both a sense of security and an infinite number of repressive rules; these two elements are bound together to produce high self-control which acts as a strong force restraining people from committing crime."

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/rc20100103a4.html
"...School uniforms, sitting through long ceremonies and speeches, putting in excessively long work hours, forgoing entitled work vacations lest one be seen as "lacking dedication to the company" — these are just a few examples of many things that Japanese people do, not because they want to but because of society's expectation of conformity..."

http://www.lotsofessays.com/viewpaper/1689877.html
"This adherence to conformity has cost the Japanese privacy in their personal lives, and it has stifled independent thinking because it is synonymous with group consensus."

http://www.translocal.jp/non-japanese/manipulated.html
"Japanese conformity and homogeneity can be seen as the products of conscious and unconscious control of the economic and political system. As Gramsci put it, there is no "pure" spontaneity."

http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc598.html

You know what, fuck it, I was going to find 5-6 more (I can) but I'm sick of doing your homework for you.
It's been made apparent that you're living in a bubble. Good luck convincing Christians that it doesn't stink in there.

[BlackTerrel]

What is the media's agenda in the writing and publishing of this article?

What is the MSM agenda in writing about March Madness?

I don't think you need to see a grandiose plot and secret conspiracy in every article. They're not the first to notice the difference in reaction to natural disaster between Japan and many other countries. We had a thread on it on RPF a few days ago.

[freejack]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/dog-in-japan-stays-by-the-side-of-its-ailing-friend-in-the-rubble

Damn! Even their dogs are morally superior! Must be atheist also.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/Japan-Gun-Control-and-People-Control.htm

"Additionally, Japan's tight, conformist social culture does an excellent job of keeping citizens out of crime in the first place. As the head of Tokyo's Police Department explains, "A man who commits a crime will bring dishonor to his family and his village, so he will think twice about disgracing them." Having lived together for several thousand years without significant immigration, the Japanese have developed the world's most homogenous and unified society. "

Here's an abstract for a paper at the Oxford Journal:
http://bjc.oxfordjournals.org/content/39/3/369.abstract
" In Japan, the locality-based group formation causes both a sense of security and an infinite number of repressive rules; these two elements are bound together to produce high self-control which acts as a strong force restraining people from committing crime."

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/rc20100103a4.html
"...School uniforms, sitting through long ceremonies and speeches, putting in excessively long work hours, forgoing entitled work vacations lest one be seen as "lacking dedication to the company" — these are just a few examples of many things that Japanese people do, not because they want to but because of society's expectation of conformity..."

http://www.lotsofessays.com/viewpaper/1689877.html
"This adherence to conformity has cost the Japanese privacy in their personal lives, and it has stifled independent thinking because it is synonymous with group consensus."

http://www.translocal.jp/non-japanese/manipulated.html
"Japanese conformity and homogeneity can be seen as the products of conscious and unconscious control of the economic and political system. As Gramsci put it, there is no "pure" spontaneity."

http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc598.html

You know what, fuck it, I was going to find 5-6 more (I can) but I'm sick of doing your homework for you.
It's been made apparent that you're living in a bubble. Good luck convincing Christians that it doesn't stink in there.



Besides most of them being complete BS websites, they really are pretty fucking lame examples. Dressing the same in ceremonies, oh how conformist of the Japanese!!!! Also, to try and say their FAR freer market place is conformist is laughable. Did you even read that stupid shit? Do you even know any Japanese people? Your broad sweeping generalizations of them are really fucking pathetic and show your ignorance. Leave your town for once in your life, maybe it will help your staggering unenlightenment.

[Original_Intent]

In other words, if you want to be as good as Japan, when disaster strikes, please wait patiently for someone in uniform to give you further instructions. Thanks, and have a nice day.

[amy31416]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/dog-in-japan-stays-by-the-side-of-its-ailing-friend-in-the-rubble

Damn! Even their dogs are morally superior! Must be atheist also.

Ohhhh man, that is the sweetest damned thing I've seen in a long time.

[Matt Collins]

Ohhhh man, that is the sweetest damned thing I've seen in a long time.There is an unPC joke in there somewhere :-P

[amy31416]

There is an unPC joke in there somewhere :-P

Well we all know that you have the best sense of humor, so I'd love to hear what you come up with, Mattypoo.

[fisharmor]

Besides most of them being complete BS websites, they really are pretty fucking lame examples. Dressing the same in ceremonies, oh how conformist of the Japanese!!!! Also, to try and say their FAR freer market place is conformist is laughable. Did you even read that stupid shit? Do you even know any Japanese people? Your broad sweeping generalizations of them are really fucking pathetic and show your ignorance. Leave your town for once in your life, maybe it will help your staggering unenlightenment.

Let's see... using every well-known logical fallacy in the book? Check.
Accusing other people of doing things that you're doing in the same post? Check.
Refusal to offer any counter evidence? Check.
Unwillingness to admit sound defeat in a debate? Check.
Willingness to repeat gratuitous assertions after said sound defeat? Check.

Sorry, obviously you're not living in a bubble.
You're living under a bridge.
Stay clear of billy goats. They're bad news for your types.

[AParadigmShift]

The Japanese are used to forming long, calm lines. Every time a new tech gadget or big videogame is released, up to 100s of people form lines in up to 100s of places all over Japan.

Hey now... nobody "queues up" like the Brits ;)

It's their national pastime.

[Pericles]

Hey now... nobody "queues up" like the Brits ;)

It's their national pastime.

From a popular joke during the Cold War:

Excuse me comrade, is this the line where they have no oranges?

No comrade, this is the line where they have no bananas.

[Matt Collins]

Well we all know that you have the best sense of humor, so I'd love to hear what you come up with, Mattypoo.Something about caninies in that part of the world... use your imagination. ;-)

[idirtify]

I like the libertarian perspective and judge immorality in terms of initiated aggression and rights violations, which things like suicide and peer pressure and voluntary conformity are NOT. Since historically religion is a force for initiated aggression, it is largely a force AGAINST the morality it claims. Plus, if you don’t believe there is an omnipotent god, then you are probably going to be more actively fixing things yourself and less idly praying and depending; and if you don’t believe there is a forgiving god, you are probably going to be more responsible for your own actions. Not to mention the fact that you will be less likely to engage in intolerance-based aggression against other religions.

Of course I can’t prove it, but it would seem to explain a lot of the social virtues of the Japanese people.

[amy31416]

Something about caninies in that part of the world... use your imagination. ;-)

Weeeeeeeeeak. :p

[anaconda]

This is a benefit of their homogeneous population and their strong culture values, common sense and understanding the benefits of working together in a situation that hasn't hit critical mass. The situations were also very different in Haiti--a third world instable and impoverished already before the disaster. But I would argue they aren't at the tipping point yet. Government is making it seem like they have this under control and the people are under a potential false sense of security. Social order will break when it needs to.

Interesting how the masses in Japan conduct themselves with discipline and dignity. In contrast to the barbaric behavior of their soldiers in WW2.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Let's see... using every well-known logical fallacy in the book? Check.
Accusing other people of doing things that you're doing in the same post? Check.
Refusal to offer any counter evidence? Check.
Unwillingness to admit sound defeat in a debate? Check.
Willingness to repeat gratuitous assertions after said sound defeat? Check.

Sorry, obviously you're not living in a bubble.
You're living under a bridge.
Stay clear of billy goats. They're bad news for your types.

YEAH AMERICA IS #1!!! We are so much better than those mindless conformists that I've never met or know nothing about!!!

[Matt Collins]

Weeeeeeeeeak. :p
Don't you mean "weak"? ;)

[jtstellar]

let me guess.. it's the tea party's fault again.

[fisharmor]

I like the libertarian perspective and judge immorality in terms of initiated aggression and rights violations, which things like suicide and peer pressure and voluntary conformity are NOT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people
"In 1899 the Japanese government passed an act labeling the Ainu as former aborigines, with the idea they would assimilate – this resulted in the land the Ainu people lived on being taken by the Japanese government, and was from then on under Japanese control.[/URL] Also at this time, the Ainu were granted automatic Japanese citizenship, effectively denying them the status of an indigenous group.
The Ainu were becoming increasingly marginalised on their own land – over a period of only 36 years, the Ainu went from being a relatively isolated group of people to having their land, language, religion and customs assimilated into those of the Japanese....
The 1899 act mentioned above was replaced in 1997—until then the government had stated there were no ethnic minority groups. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people#cite_note-10) It was not until June 6, 2008 that Japan formally recognised the Ainu as an indigenous group."

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8D_Tai

"Shō Tai was the last king of the Ryūkyū Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ry%C5%ABky%C5%AB_Kingdom).
...
On March 11, 1879, Shō Tai formally abdicated upon the orders of Tokyo, which abolished Ryūkyū han and created Okinawa Prefecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_Prefecture), with officials appointed from Tokyo to administer the islands.
...
Shō Tai died in 1901, at the age of 58, and was entombed in the royal mausoleum at Shuri, Tamaudun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamaudun). His family observed traditional Ryūkyūan mourning rituals for two years, after which they gave up traditional costume, rituals, court language, and ways of life, adopting those of the rest of the Japanese kazoku aristocracy."


So, how's that for voluntary conformity?
Closing off your entire country for 200 years because some of your people start to show interest in stuff like western medicine is one thing.
Forcibly assimilating other cultures into your own is another.
And anyone who thinks their orderly society is great for everyone should go hang out in Nanking for a while and see what that was all about.
It's all related.

Again, I'm not saying our shit smells like roses and I never was. I know a couple aboriginals here who would take exception to that. I'm just pointing out that the reason why their crime rate is so low, the reason why they patiently stand in line after their lives are ruined, and the reason why their reported murder rate is so low is all related.
It's not for me.