"It's impossible to say whether there has or has not been damage to containment"

[Anti Federalist]

So says Nuclear and Industrial Agency official Naoki Kumagai, buried in a story about how now, three reactors at the Fukushima power station are in a meltdown situation.


Some experts would consider melting fuel rods a partial meltdown. Others, though, reserve that term for times when nuclear fuel melts through a reactor's innermost chamber but not through the outer containment shell.

Officials held out the possibility that, too, may be happening. "It's impossible to say whether there has or has not been damage" to the vessels, Nuclear and Industrial Agency official Naoki Kumagai said.

If a complete reactor meltdown — where the uranium core melts through the outer containment shell — were to occur, a wave of radiation would be released, resulting in major, widespread health problems.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42066534/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

In the case of Three Mile Island, the primary containment vessel held the melting core material.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Graphic_TMI-2_Core_End-State_Configuration.jpg/427px-Graphic_TMI-2_Core_End-State_Configuration.jpg

If the containment vessels are still intact and undamaged, they should be able to contain even a core melting due to residual heat, thus no severe leak of radioactive material.

If they are not intact...well...pray for Japan I suppose. :(

[Kylie]

Yep. Big ole roll of the dice, this is.

[Anti Federalist]

Cutaway view of the GE Mark I Boiling Water type reactor, support and containment housing.

http://www.pilgrimwatch.org/images/radw8.jpg

[UtahApocalypse]

Love how they can tell us that everything is ok..... yet they don't know for sure what has even happened.

[Acala]

As I read it, what they don't know is if the inermost, thin containment has been breached because they can't see into it. They can tell that the heavy containment has not been breached because if it had been, they could see it and significant radiation would have leaked out and they could measure it.

[Anti Federalist]

As I read it, what they don't know is if the inermost, thin containment has been breached because they can't see into it. They can tell that the heavy containment has not been breached because if it had been, they could see it and significant radiation would have leaked out and they could measure it.

That's my understanding.

My concern is that the outer containment vessel may have non visible damage from the quake itself, that will not be evident unless or until the inner steel containment is breached.

[TheeJoeGlass]

Can they put a dome over it like they did in the Simpsons movie?

[raiha]

Not just Japan. Russia is testing levels constantly and much of the rest of Asia is at risk if this is not contained.

[Acala]

That's my understanding.

My concern is that the outer containment vessel may have non visible damage from the quake itself, that will not be evident unless or until the inner steel containment is breached.

There really isn't much data to go on, since there have been so few catastrophic reactor failures. Has there ever been a full breach of containment with any reactor that wasn't made from pot metal and potatoes? I think it is safe to say that nearly ANY container will be breached if you have a fully-molten reactor core hitting a large pool of water. That kind of steam just can't be contained.

But I dunno.

[Acala]

Let's hope we will be able to chalk this up as an expensive learning experience and not another epic tragedy.

[00_Pete]

Switch on the "Its the government regulation fault" record guys.

Or do the "Look at me im so wild and rough and manly, im all anti-eco and smoke 3 packs a day, im so free and wild. I shoot dogs just to piss PETA off" act. Go on...

[Fox McCloud]

Switch on the "Its the government regulation fault" record guys.

Or do the "Look at me im so wild and rough and manly, im all anti-eco and smoke 3 packs a day, im so free and wild. I shoot dogs just to piss PETA off" act. Go on...

Yay for ad hominems!

[AZKing]

Can they put a dome over it like they did in the Simpsons movie?

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/1766/oilspillidea.jpg

Does this still apply? :>

[HOLLYWOOD]

I don't know if anyone has posted this information by the NEI Nuclear Energy Institute

Timelines and actions by Japan, US and others... Latest I heard is that an Explosion was heard from now Daiichi #2 Reactor.

http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/

http://www.nei.org/static/images/home_branding_logo.gif

Information on the Japanese Earthquake and Reactors in That Region



The thoughts and prayers of the staff of the Nuclear Energy Institute are with our friends in Japan who have lost loved ones, homes and businesses during the earthquake and subsequent tsunami. We send our heartfelt sympathy and concern.

Latest NEI Updates


**NOTE: Refresh your Web browser periodically to ensure you receive the latest updates appearing on this page.**
http://www.nei.org/filefolder/March2011_fukushima_plant_JapaneseEarthquake.jpg
UPDATE AS OF 5:30 P.M. EDT, MONDAY, MARCH 14:
Tokyo Electric Power Co. (http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/index-e.html) reported at 3:00 p.m. EDT that work had resumed to pump seawater into Fukushima Daiichi 2 to maintain safe cooling water levels after the utility was able to vent steam from the pressure vessel. The fuel had been exposed for 140 minutes Monday night due to a malfunctioning pressure relief valve. Water levels later went up to cover more than half of the rods.

The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission reports (http://nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/news/2011/11-047.pdf) that the Japanese government has formally asked for assistance from the United States on nuclear power plant cooling issues triggered by the March 11 tsunami.

Continue on link for complete time lines and status.

[00_Pete]

I don't know if anyone has posted this information by the NEI Nuclear Energy Institute

If true that is the 4th reactor going ape :rolleyes:

[Anti Federalist]

Word from the other thread is that Fukushima number 2 has exploded.
No solid confirmation on this yet.

[Anti Federalist]

Explosion heard at No.2 reactor of Fukushima No.1 nuke plant: agency

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-03/15/c_13778473.htm

English.news.cn 2011-03-15 08:05:09 FeedbackPrintRSS

TOKYO, March 15 (Xinhua) -- Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said Tuesday that an explosion was heard at the No. 2 reactor of Fukushima No.1 nuclear power plant at 6:10 a.m. Tuesday (2110 GMT).

The suppression pool of the reactor might have been damaged at No. 2 reactor, said the safety agency.

A rise in radiation was monitored near the nuclear plant shortly after the blast, said the agency. The radiation fell to 882 micro sievert after briefly rising as high as 965.5 micro sievert, topping the legal limit of 500.

But the agency said that the radiation will not immediately affect people's health at the levels of above figures.

Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO), owner and operator of the Fukushima nuclear plants, said it is evacuating some workers from the plant, but those who is working to cool the reactor will remain there.

Prime Minister Naoto Kan said earlier Tuesday that the government and TEPCO will set up an integrated headquarters, headed by the premier, to address issues at the Fukushima No. 1 plant.

[Anti Federalist]

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/1766/oilspillidea.jpg

Does this still apply? :>

Damn those Alaskan Bull Worms.

[Anti Federalist]

New Blast Reported at Nuclear Plant as Japan Struggles to Cool Reactor

By HIROKO TABUCHI, KEITH BRADSHER and MATT WALD
Published: March 14, 2011

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?_r=2

It was not immediately clear if the blast was caused by the buildup of hydrogen, as occurred at the two other reactors at Daiichi — one on Saturday and the most recent one on Monday, when there was also a large explosion at the No. 3 reactor. Some early reports in the Japanese press suggested the latest explosion amounted to a different and more critical problem than the previous two.

This explosion, reported to have occurred at 6:14 a.m., happened in the “pressure suppression room” in the cooling area of the reactor and inflicted some degree of damage on the pool of water used to cool the reactor, officials of Tokyo Electric Power said. But they did not say whether the incident had impacted the integrity of the steel containment structure that shields the nuclear fuel.

[Tinnuhana]

Meanwhile...

Travel Alert from US Embassy in Tokyo.

TRAVEL ALERT
Latest Updates on Travel within Japan
Update: In Tokyo, trains and subways are operating on limited schedules due to rolling blackouts that started Monday morning.
March 14, 2011 at 09:30
1. The Department of State alerts U.S. citizens to the situation in Japan in the aftermath of the powerful earthquake, measuring 8.9 magnitude, that struck northern Japan on March 11. U.S. citizens should avoid travel to Japan at this time. This Travel Alert supersedes the Travel Alert for Japan dated March 13, 2011, to provide updated information on planned power outages, the evacuation of areas near nuclear power facilities in Fukushima, and the likelihood of further aftershocks and tsunamis. This Travel Alert expires on April 1, 2011.
2. The Department of State requests all non-emergency official U.S. government personnel defer travel to Japan and urges U.S. citizens to avoid tourism and non-essential travel to Japan at this time. Temporary shortages of water and food supplies may occur in affected areas of Japan due to power and transportation disruptions. Telephone services have also been disrupted in affected areas; where possible, you may be able to contact family members using text message or social media such as Facebook or Twitter.
3. Flights have resumed at all airports that were closed by the earthquake, except Sendai, Sado, Iwate- Hanamaki, and Misawa Airports. In Tokyo, trains and subways are operating on limited schedules due to rolling blackouts that started Monday morning. Many roads have been damaged in the Tokyo area and in northern Japan, particularly in the Miyagi prefecture where government checkpoints have been established on damaged roadways. In Iwate Prefecture, toll road highways are restricted to emergency vehicles only.
4. U.S. citizens currently in Japan should be aware that rolling power outages are scheduled for the Tokyo Metropolitan area and in northern and central Honshu. Tokyo Electric Company reports that three-hour outages may occur in various regions, including Tokyo, starting the morning of Monday, March 14. Please monitor the Tokyo Electric Power Company website and local news media for specific information and schedules for the planned outages. Radio stations in the Tokyo area that have emergency information in English include the U.S. Armed Forces station at 810AM and InterFM (76.1FM).
5. The Japan Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) has recommended that people who live within 20 kilometers of the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant in Okumacho evacuate the area immediately. Japanese authorities have confirmed that the situation remains serious. U.S. citizens residing or traveling in Fukushima Prefecture should follow NISA instructions to evacuate and comply with Japanese government personnel on the ground. More information on the status of the nuclear facilities and on areas affected by power outages is available on NISA's website. You can find more information on radiation emergencies from the Centers for Disease Control Emergency Preparedness and Response' website.
6. Strong aftershocks are likely for weeks following a massive earthquake such as this one. The American Red Cross recommends that in the event of aftershocks, persons should move to open spaces away from walls, windows, buildings, and other structures that may collapse, and should be alert to the danger of falling debris. If you are indoors, DROP, COVER, AND HOLD ON: If possible, seek cover under a sturdy desk or table, hold on, and protect your eyes by pressing your face against your arm. If there is no table or desk nearby, sit on the floor against an interior wall away from windows, bookcases or tall furniture that could fall on you. Avoid damaged buildings and downed power lines. Great care should be used with matches, lighters, candles, or any open flame due to the possibility of disrupted gas lines.
7. Due to the continuing possibility of strong aftershocks, Japan remains at risk for further tsunamis. Japanese authorities have issued a warning for people to stay away from low-lying coastal areas. If a tsunami alert is issued by Japanese authorities, evacuate immediately to higher ground. Further information about what you can do if a tsunami occurs can be found at the National Weather Service's Tsunami Ready website and the International Tsunami Information Center's website. Current tsunami alerts can be found at the Japan Meteorological Agency website and the website of the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center.
8. U.S. citizens in Japan should contact family and friends in the United States to confirm their well-being at the earliest opportunity. Where internet and telephone services are not available, it may be possible to contact people using SMS (Cell text message) or other forms of social media such as Twitter and Facebook. U.S. citizens requiring emergency consular assistance may contact the Department of State at JapanEmergencyUSC@state.gov and the emergency contact numbers below.
9. U.S. citizens in Japan are encouraged to enroll in the Smart Traveler Enrollment Program (STEP) at the following website: https://travelregistration.state.gov. U.S. citizens without internet access may enroll directly at the U.S. Embassy or U.S. Consulates. By enrolling, U.S. citizens make it easier for the Embassy/Consulates to contact them in case of emergency.
10. Updated information on travel and security in Japan may be obtained from the Department of State by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll-free in the United States and Canada or, for callers outside the United States and Canada, a regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. For further information, please consult the Country Specific Information for Japan, as well as the Worldwide Caution, which can be found at travel.state.gov.

[HOLLYWOOD]

View Time-Tag & remember, it's the Japanese, which normally aren't forward with the truth. containers are "GREEN"

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/mzcmdr/Fukishima_Reactors.png

[osan]

Switch on the "Its the government regulation fault" record guys.

Or do the "Look at me im so wild and rough and manly, im all anti-eco and smoke 3 packs a day, im so free and wild. I shoot dogs just to piss PETA off" act. Go on...

And this is helpful how?

[Anti Federalist]

Japan: New radiation leaks harmful to health

Mar 14, 10:32 PM EDT

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_JAPAN_EARTHQUAKE_NUCLEAR_CRISIS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

SOMA, Japan (AP) -- Radiation is spewing from damaged reactors at a crippled nuclear power plant in tsunami-ravaged northeastern Japan in a dramatic escalation of the 4-day-old catastrophe. The prime minister has warned residents to stay inside or risk getting radiation sickness.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said Tuesday that a fourth reactor at the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex was on fire and that more radiation was released

Prime Minister Naoto Kan warned that there are dangers of more leaks and told people living within 19 miles (30 kilometers) of the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex stay indoors.

[00_Pete]

When they start warning residents to stay inside because of radiation sickness you know its starting to get bad...

[Anti Federalist]

Mar 15, 12:06 PM EDT

Radiation level soars after Japan nuke plant fire

By ERIC TALMADGE and SHINO YUASA
Associated Press

SOMA, Japan (AP) -- Dangerous levels of radiation leaking from a crippled nuclear plant forced Japan to order 140,000 people to seal themselves indoors Tuesday after an explosion and a fire dramatically escalated the crisis spawned by a deadly tsunami.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_JAPAN_EARTHQUAKE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[osan]

Mar 15, 12:06 PM EDT

Radiation level soars after Japan nuke plant fire

By ERIC TALMADGE and SHINO YUASA
Associated Press

SOMA, Japan (AP) -- Dangerous levels of radiation leaking from a crippled nuclear plant forced Japan to order 140,000 people to seal themselves indoors Tuesday after an explosion and a fire dramatically escalated the crisis spawned by a deadly tsunami.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_JAPAN_EARTHQUAKE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Sealing yourself indoors isn't going to help much. Probably will not help enough. Let us keep an eye on the state of health of the Japanese over the coming decade. I regretfully suspect that cancer is going to become frightfully common there.

We having fun yet?

[tangent4ronpaul]

6. Strong aftershocks are likely for weeks following a massive earthquake such as this one. The American Red Cross recommends that in the event of aftershocks, persons should move to open spaces away from walls, windows, buildings, and other structures that may collapse, and should be alert to the danger of falling debris. If you are indoors, DROP, COVER, AND HOLD ON: If possible, seek cover under a sturdy desk or table, hold on, and protect your eyes by pressing your face against your arm. If there is no table or desk nearby, sit on the floor against an interior wall away from windows, bookcases or tall furniture that could fall on you.

RE item #6:

Building collapse survival
Triangle of Life


HIGH POINTS FROM DOUG COPP'S ARTICLE ON THE "TRIANGLE OF LIFE",

Edited by Larry Linn for MAA Safety Committee brief on 4/13/04.

My name is Doug Copp. I am the Rescue Chief and Disaster Manager of the

American Rescue Team International (ARTI), the world's most experienced

rescue team. The information in this article will save lives in an
earthquake.

I have crawled inside 875 collapsed buildings, worked with rescue teams

from 60 countries, founded rescue teams in several countries, and I am a
member

of many rescue teams from many countries. I was the United Nations expert

in Disaster Mitigation (UNX051 -UNIENET) for two years. I have worked at

every major disaster in the world since 1985, except for simultaneous
disasters.

In 1996 we made a film which proved my survival methodology to be correct.

The Turkish Federal Government, City of Istanbul, University of Istanbul,

Case Productions and ARTI cooperated to film this practical, scientific

test. We collapsed a school and a home with 20 mannequins inside. Ten

mannequins did "duck and cover," and ten mannequins I used in my

"triangle of life" survival method. After the simulated earthquake collapse
we

crawled through the rubble and entered the building to film and document

the results.

The film, in which I practiced my survival techniques under directly

observable, scientific conditions, relevant to building collapse, showed

there would have been zero percent survival for those doin! g duck and

cover. There would likely have been 100 percent survivability for people

using my method of the "triangle of life." This film has been seen by

millions of viewers on television in Turkey and the rest of Europe, and

it was seen in the USA, Canada and Latin America on the TV program Real TV.

The first building I ever crawled inside of was a school in Mexico City

during the 1985 earthquake. Every child was under their desk. Every child

was crushed to the thickness of their bones. They could have survived by

lying down next to their desks in the aisles. It was obscene, unnecessary

and I wondered why the children were not in the aisles. I didn't at the

time know that the children were told to hide under something.

Simply stated, when buildings collapse, the weight of the ceilings falling

upon the objects or furniture inside crushes these objects, leaving a

space or void next to them. This space is what I call the "triangle of
life".

The larger the object, the stronger, the less it will compact. The less the

object compacts, the larger the void, the greater the probability that

the person who is using this void for safety will not be injured. The next

time you watch collapsed buildings, on television, count the "triangles"

you see formed. They are everywhere. It is the most common shape, you will

see, in a collapsed building. They are everywhere.

I trained the Fire Department of Trujillo (population 750,000) in how to

survive, take care of their families, and to rescue others in earthquakes.

The chief of rescue in the Trujillo Fire Department is a professor at

Trujillo University. He accompanied me everywhere. He gave personal

testimony: "My name is Roberto Rosales. I am Chief of Rescue in Trujillo.

When I was 11 years old, I was trapped inside of a collapsed building. My

entrapment occurred during the earthquake of 1972 that killed 70,000

people.. I survived in the "triangle of life" that existed next to my

brother's motorcycle. My friends who got under the bed and under desks

were crushed to death [he gives more details, names, addresses etc.]...I am

the living example of the "triangle of life". My dead friends are the
example

of "duck and cover".

TIPS DOUG COPP PROVIDES:

1) Everyone who simply "ducks and covers" WHEN BUILDINGS COLLAPSE is

crushed to death -- every time, without exception. People who get under
objects,

like desks or cars, are always crushed.

2) Cats, dogs and babies all naturally often curl up in the fetal

position. You should too in an earthquake. It is a natural safety/survival

instinct. You can survive in a smaller void. Get next to an object, next to
a

sofa, next to a large bulky object that will compress slightly but leave a
void

next to it.

3) Wooden buildings are the safest type of construction to be in during an

earthquake. The reason is simple: the wood is flexible and moves with the

force of the earthquake. If the wooden building does collapse, large

survival voids are created. Also, the wooden building has less

concentrated, crushing weight. Brick buildings will break into individual
bricks.

Bricks will cause many injuries but less squashed bodies than concrete

slabs.

4) If you are in bed during the night and an earthquake occurs, simply

roll off the bed. A safe void will exist around the bed. Hotels can achieve
a

much greater survival rate in earthquakes, simply by posting a sign on the

back of the door of every room, telling occupants to lie down on the

floor, next to the bottom of the bed during an earthquake.

5) If an earthquake happens while you are watching television and you

cannot easily escape by getting out the door or window, then lie down and
curl up

in the fetal position next to a sofa, or large chair.

6) Everybody who gets under a doorway when buildings collapse is killed.

How? If you stand under a doorway and the doorjamb falls forward or

backward you will be crushed by the ceiling above. If the door jam falls

sideways you will be cut in half by the doorway. In either case, you will

be killed!

7) Never go to the stairs. The stairs have a different "moment of

frequency" (they swing separately from the main part of the building). The

stairs and remainder of the building continuously bump into each other

until structural failure of the stairs takes place. The people who get on
stairs

before they fail are chopped up by the stair treads. They are horribly

mutilated. Even if the building doesn't collapse, stay away from the

stairs. The stairs are a likely part of the building to be damaged. Even

if the stairs are not collapsed by the earthquake, they may collapse later

when overloaded by screaming, fleeing people. They should always be checked

for safety, even when the rest of the building is not damaged.

8) Get near the outer walls of buildings or outside of them if possible-

It is much better to be near the outside of the building rather than the

interior. The farther inside you are from the outside perimeter of the

building the greater the probability that your escape route will be

blocked.

9) People inside of their vehicles are crushed when the road above falls

in an earthquake and crushes their vehicles; which is exactly what happened

with the slabs between the decks of the Nimitz Freeway. The victims of the

San Francisco earthquake all stayed inside of their vehicles. They were

all killed. They could have easily survived by getting out and sitting or

lying next to their vehicles, says the author. Everyone killed would have

survived if they had been able to get out of their cars and sit or lie

next to them. All the crushed cars had voids 3 feet high next to them,
except

for the cars that had columns fall directly across them.

10) I discovered, while crawling inside of collapsed newspaper offices and

other offices with a lot of paper, that paper does not compact. Large

voids are found surrounding stacks of paper.

[Anti Federalist]

Official: Japan's nuclear situation nearing severity of Chernobyl
By Alanne Orjoux, CNNMarch 15, 2011 -- Updated 1912 GMT (0312 HKT)

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear/?hpt=T2

(CNN) -- The explosion Tuesday at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant has elevated the situation there to a "serious accident" on a level just below Chernobyl, a French nuclear official said, referring to an international scale that rates the severity of such incidents.

The International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale -- or INES -- goes from Level 1, which indicates very little danger to the general population, to Level 7, a "major accident" in which there's been a large release of radioactive material and there will be widespread health and environmental effects.

"It's clear we are at Level 6, that's to say we're at a level in between what happened at Three Mile Island and Chernobyl," Andre-Claude Lacoste, president of France's nuclear safety authority, told reporters Tuesday.

Japanese nuclear authorities initially rated the incident at Level 4, according to Greg Webb of the International Atomic Energy Agency. Level 4 is characterized as a minor release of radioactive material that necessitates only measures to control food due to contamination. But in the latest information about the explosion, Japanese authorities did not give it a rating, Webb said, and the IAEA is not putting a number on it either.

[Vessol]

Anyone who is still at the reactor now is a fucking hero.

They'll all be dead within a month..

[Brian4Liberty]

More news on Reactor #2. If I read this correctly, secondary containment has been lost, and all future required pressure releases from primary containment will reach the atmosphere:


Loud noises were heard at Fukushima Daiichi 2 at 6.10am this morning. A major component beneath the reactor may be damaged.

Confirmation of loud sounds this morning came from the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA). It noted that “the suppression chamber may be damaged.” It is not clear that the sounds were explosions.

Also known as the torus, this large doughnut-shaped structure sits in the centre of the reactor building at a lower level than the reactor. It contains a very large body of water to which steam can be directed in emergency situations. The steam then condenses and reduces pressure in the reactor system.

The pressure in the pool was seen to decrease from three atmospheres to one atmosphere after the noise, suggesting possible damage. Radiation levels on the edge of the plant compound briefly spiked at 8217 microsieverts per hour but later fell to about a third that.

A close watch is being kept on the radiation levels to ascertain the status of containment.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Possible_damage_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_2_1503111. html

[Brian4Liberty]

This explosion (in Reactor #2), reported to have occurred at 6:14 a.m., happened in the pressure suppression room in the cooling area of the reactor and inflicted some degree of damage on the pool of water used to cool the reactor, officials of Tokyo Electric Power said. But they did not say whether the incident had impacted the integrity of the steel containment structure that shields the nuclear fuel.

Is the pool and pressure suppression room inside or outside of secondary containment?

Edit: found out it is inside the primary containment.

[Anti Federalist]

Is the pool and pressure suppression room inside or outside of secondary containment?

Based on my looking over of the drawings of the GE Mark I BWR, it is outside primary containment.

It would be inside secondary containment which is the reactor building itself.

But my impression is that all three of those buildings, which compromises secondary containment, have blown up.

Much more problematic is the issue of exposed, spent fuel rods that burned at reactor 4.

[Anti Federalist]

Anyone who is still at the reactor now is a fucking hero.

They'll all be dead within a month..

No shit.

Blowing up villages by pushbutton or tasering drunks does not a hero make.

Standing by your post in an extreme industrial accident like this, in order to try get things under control so more people don't die, knowing full well it's more than likely going to kill you by a slow, agonizing death, is, truly, heroic.

[Brian4Liberty]

Based on my looking over of the drawings of the GE Mark I BWR, it is outside primary containment.

It would be inside secondary containment which is the reactor building itself.

But my impression is that all three of those buildings, which compromises secondary containment, have blown up.

Much more problematic is the issue of exposed, spent fuel rods that burned at reactor 4.

Yeah, radioactive smoke from the exposed burning rods is more of an immediate issue. The problem with Reactor #2 is that pressure must be released periodically from the core and that will now go into a pool with a leak somewhere.

[pacelli]

Its impossible to tell either way? That sounds like gov-speak for "There has been damage to containment".

[Anti Federalist]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/15/us-japan-quake-roof-idUSTRE72E8H920110315

(Reuters) - Two workers are missing after Tuesday's explosion at one of the reactors at a crippled Japanese nuclear plant, the country's nuclear safety agency said.

The agency did not identify the missing workers, but said they were in the turbine area of the No.4 reactor at the Fukushima nuclear plant, which was damaged by last Friday's earthquake and tsunami.

Agency official also told a news conference there was a crack in the roof of the reactor building.

Authorities are desperately trying to prevent the water which is designed to cool the radioactive cores of the plant's reactors from running dry, which would lead to overheating and the release of dangerous radioactive material into the atmosphere.

It was possible the water in the reactor was boiling, the agency said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/15/us-japan-quake-idUSTRE72A0SS20110315

(Reuters) - Japan raced to avert a catastrophe on Wednesday after an explosion at a quake-crippled nuclear power plant sent radiation wafting into Tokyo, prompting some people to flee the capital and others to stock up on essential supplies.

The crisis escalated late on Tuesday when operators of the facility said one of two blasts had blown a hole in the building housing a reactor, which meant spent nuclear fuel was exposed to the atmosphere.

[Acala]

Crack in the building or crack in the thick concrete containment?

Damn! It is frustrating to not be able to get clear information. And what is the plan? They can't be waiting for the cores to cool by themselves.

[puppetmaster]

Crack in the building or crack in the thick concrete containment?

Damn! It is frustrating to not be able to get clear information. And what is the plan? They can't be waiting for the cores to cool by themselves.


I think that's the plan......

[Anti Federalist]

Crack in the building or crack in the thick concrete containment?

Damn! It is frustrating to not be able to get clear information. And what is the plan? They can't be waiting for the cores to cool by themselves.

Edited my post. I don't know, you're right the wording is fripping unclear.

The plan? I don't think there is any plan anymore...

I suspect that the only plan left is the same as firefighting a major conflagration: Surround and Drown.

Use anything and everything available to cool both the reactor vessels and the used fuel pools as well.

The fact that they were looking at airdropping water on the reactor containments indicates to me there is nothing left usable of the electric pump systems.

And of course, without circulating cooling water all bets are off as to what happens next.

Nothing good, that much I know.

[Brian4Liberty]

It would be inside secondary containment which is the reactor building itself.

But my impression is that all three of those buildings, which compromises secondary containment, have blown up.


I believe the larger building represents a third layer of containment. Secondary containment has only been compromised in Reactor #2 (so far).

Edit: It appears that the suppression pools are within the primary containment.

[00_Pete]

Perhaps they are going for plan Z? Close eyes, count to 10 and hope that when they open their eyes the whole thing is over?

[Anti Federalist]

I believe the larger building represents a third layer of containment. Secondary containment has only been compromised in Reactor #2 (so far).

Everything you ever wanted to know about GE Mark I-VI BWRs and containment systems.

The first pages are PWR and not BWR, scroll down

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/mragheb/www/NPRE%20457%20CSE%20462%20Safety%20Analysis%20of%20 Nuclear%20Reactor%20Systems/Containment%20Structures.pdf

[Acala]

Everything you ever wanted to know about GE Mark I-VI BWRs and containment systems.


Not quite everything I want to know. I want to know if it is going to contain the glowing ball of molten death brewing inside it? Or is it going to spew out and kill thousands of helpless men, women, and children? I didn't see that in the drawing. But I'll bet somewhere there is an engineer who knows this thing better than you know your own house and he is saying "sheist".

[Anti Federalist]

Not quite everything I want to know. I want to know if it is going to contain the glowing ball of molten death brewing inside it? Or is it going to spew out and kill thousands of helpless men, women, and children? I didn't see that in the drawing. But I'll bet somewhere there is an engineer who knows this thing better than you know your own house and he is saying "sheist".

Yah, that's the feeling I get on an old vessel in bad weather.

The idea that the only thing keeping us afloat is the best guess of a now long dead engineer as to how much stress a ship (or a containment vessel that has been subjected to a level 9 earthquake and tsunami) should be able to stand.

[doodle]

Fear of the unknown is greater than the known sometimes.

[Anti Federalist]

Why the hell did the other nuke thread get closed???

[squarepusher]

"Workers at Japan's damaged nuclear power plant have suspended operations and evacuated, chief Cabinet secretary says."

[Anti Federalist]

Mods!

Why was this thread locked?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?283259-Japanese-nuclear-plant-may-only-have-a-few-hours..../page15

[Expatriate]

I wonder what percentage of the population in that area has KI tablets and gas masks. Are there any charities distributing them?

They're probably not going to be able to evacuate everyone from the affected areas.

[Anti Federalist]

Brian4Liberty
View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message View Blog Entries View Articles Add as Contact Send Email

Senior Member


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Join Date:Jul 2007
Location:USA
Posts:7,793
Blog Entries:3

Originally Posted by YumYum
So, what's next?

If they don't send people back in? Open air fires at 4, 5 and 6 of spent fuel rods.

And complete core meltdown in 1, 2 and 3, with a very good chance that core containment on 2 being compromised.

[KramerDSP]

Supposedly, some workers are still there, but probably less than 50. I think we're almost beyond the point of no return. Some people are going to have to sacrifice their lives and contain the mess, but it could be a mess of 6 reactors all together. This is terrible. It just gets worse and worse.

[HOLLYWOOD]

1045AM 6.4 milliSv
1100AM 2.9 milliSv

UNLOCK the Fukushima Thread

[KramerDSP]

And complete core meltdown in 1, 2 and 3, with a very good chance that core containment on 2 being compromised.

If there is a complete core meltdown in 1 and 3 and they are contained, what happens?

Also, if 2 is compromised, aren't the chances extremely likely that the ensuing explosion would set off 1 and 3 ?

[Anti Federalist]

If there is a complete core meltdown in 1 and 3 and they are contained, what happens?

Also, if 2 is compromised, aren't the chances extremely likely that the ensuing explosion would set off 1 and 3 ?

If everything holds together, meltdown of the core will be contained within the pressure vessel.

An explosion at 2 would more than likely be steam at first, then followed by burning fuel rods.

I don't think, based on my reading of all this, that it would be bad enough to breach containment on 1 and 3.

[Anti Federalist]

Word is that the story about the last 50 men at the plant being pulled out was incorrect.

AC on CNN was the source.

[Brian4Liberty]

Word is that the story about the last 50 men at the plant being pulled out was incorrect.

AC on CNN was the source.

And now he changed his story back to saying they left. Seems there is some confusion on the translation. The fog of breaking news...

[pcosmar]

"It's impossible to say whether there has or has not been damage to containment"
NO.
It is not impossible to say.
It is just impossible to get a straight and honest answer from Government or MSM sources.

I am pretty sure the irradiated workers know they have lost containment.

Perhaps in ten or twenty years they will confirm it.

[Anti Federalist]

And now he changed his story back to saying they left. Seems there is some confusion on the translation. The fog of breaking news...

*facepalm*

[tangent4ronpaul]

UNLOCK the Fukushima Thread

Just noticed.... whoever names these places has a pretty sick sense of humor:

Fuk-us-hima

[Brian4Liberty]

Everything you ever wanted to know about GE Mark I-VI BWRs and containment systems.

The first pages are PWR and not BWR, scroll down

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/mragheb/www/NPRE%20457%20CSE%20462%20Safety%20Analysis%20of%20 Nuclear%20Reactor%20Systems/Containment%20Structures.pdf

Thanks for the link. The introduction to the paper talks about the purpose of "containment". Basically, it is not designed to hold pressure, which is why it is breaching with the release of pressure from the core container. It's main purpose it to protect it from damage from outside (hurricanes, airplanes, external explosions, etc.)

[Brian4Liberty]

The suppression pool is considered part of primary containment, not secondary. Apparently the steel pressure vessel containing the core is not considered a "level of containment".



It was reported earlier today that the explosion at Unit 2 of the Fukushima Daiichi plant damaged the suppression chamber. As discussed in the previous post, the suppression chamber/torus (i.e. donut shape vessel containing water) is used to depressurize the reactor. The suppression pool is designed to condense the hot steam from the reactor, but can only do so as long as sufficient cold water remains in it. It should also be noted that the suppression pool is part of the primary containment.

http://mitnse.com/

[00_Pete]

Keep the news coming "Anti-Fed". Lets make this the "pure" news thread about Japan and leave the other thread for discussions.

I want to know if i will have to buy a Ford Falcon V8, a double-barrel sawed-off shotgun and a badass looking trenchcoat and leather pants...