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stevedasbach
10-24-2007, 07:10 AM
http://www.capecodtoday.com/blogs/index.php/BostonBureau/2007/10/24/mobs_turn_out_for_obama_rally

Obama Rocks at the Boston Rally

Bostonians went wild

By Libby Hughes, Boston Bureau for Cape Cod Today

<snip>

Then, a rabid Ron Paul supporter approached a young couple behind me. They were independents, willing to listen to anyone. The man who collared them was Russian. He said, "You Americans don't realize that big government leads to tyranny. I've been through socialism and communism, I know. That's where you're going, too. The government will take all your money." By the end of his tirade, he was shouting.

<snip>

This was in no way a hit piece on Paul. It was simply the observation of the reporter.

There are way too many reports like this. IMO, this type of behavior is really undermining Paul's campaign.

Whenever we encounter this type of behavior from our fellow Paul supporters, offline or online, we need to whatever we can to discourage it. You don't get a second chance to make a first impression -- let's make sure the first impressions people get from Paul supporters are positive.

Ozwest
10-24-2007, 07:21 AM
What is your reason for starting this thread? Hasn't everyone had enough of this over-critical self-flagellation? How about something positive for a change?

kylejack
10-24-2007, 07:25 AM
What is your reason for starting this thread? Hasn't everyone had enough of this over-critical self-flagellation? How about something positive for a change?
Show a little respect, please. Generally I agree, but show some respect.

Ozwest
10-24-2007, 07:31 AM
Show a little respect, please. Generally I agree, but show some respect.

I'm sorry, but I see nothing disrespectful in my comment... I think my point of view is valid.

kylejack
10-24-2007, 07:37 AM
I'm sorry, but I see nothing disrespectful in my comment... I think my point of view is valid.

I just mean, give some people a little more leeway than others. Steve is the former Executive Director and National Chair of the Libertarian Party, and we're lucky to have him here.

Ozwest
10-24-2007, 07:47 AM
I was unaware of this. The floor is yours Sir.

Bradley in DC
10-24-2007, 07:48 AM
Steve, as usual, you are dead right. The biggest problem with the campaign's chances of success right now, aside from very low name recognition, is the behavior of his supporters.

Green Mountain Boy
10-24-2007, 07:49 AM
I was there at the Obama rally last night.
Overall, it went pretty well. We had at least 20 from our meetup group there with a few big banners and our signs. We handed out a lot of literature and spoke with some people who were receptive, some who were not, obviously.

The Russian guy mentioned in the article is in our group. Unfortunately he can be a little over the top at times. Oh well. You can't control everybody.

We also had a projector set up at the edge of the commons with the "A New Hope" video playing. A lot of people stopped to watch and talk with us.

chiefsmurph
10-24-2007, 08:00 AM
Yes, this is more common than we would like to admit. We really are giving him a bad name sometimes.

Original_Intent
10-24-2007, 08:13 AM
Maybe we should look at the cause of this kind of behavior and see if we can't educate ourselves and train ourselves to keep it in check.

I don't have any solutions, but I see the cause behind this behavior as many of us feel that the American public is asleep and that we need to be dramatic to wake them up. I am not defending the behavior I am looking for root causes and what we can do about it.


Anyone else have other ideas as to why people act that way and how can we educate/train ourselves to overcome this? And if the problem really is that we need to wake people up, what is a better way to do it than this kind of drama?

Personally, I find the best way is to give them enough information to get them asking questions so that they wake themselves up, at their own speed.

If we shove the "red pill" down their throats, they often end up just like Neo, losing his breakfast on hands and knees because he couldn't accept reality. Apologies to those of you who have not seen 'The Matrix')

Ozwest
10-24-2007, 08:26 AM
Unlike other campaigns, Ron Paul supporters are self-motivated and passionate... There are many pitfalls associated with a grass roots campaign, and supporters should be reminded of the consequences of their actions, but inevitably, supporters are individuals and not a orchestrated event... Re- iterate the message of self control by all means, but have strategies in place to " mitigate occurences that may be harmful. Everyone loves the underdog. My 2 cents.

Bradley in DC
10-24-2007, 08:30 AM
Maybe we should look at the cause of this kind of behavior and see if we can't educate ourselves and train ourselves to keep it in check.

I don't have any solutions, but I see the cause behind this behavior as many of us feel that the American public is asleep and that we need to be dramatic to wake them up. I am not defending the behavior I am looking for root causes and what we can do about it.


Anyone else have other ideas as to why people act that way and how can we educate/train ourselves to overcome this? And if the problem really is that we need to wake people up, what is a better way to do it than this kind of drama?

Personally, I find the best way is to give them enough information to get them asking questions so that they wake themselves up, at their own speed.

If we shove the "red pill" down their throats, they often end up just like Neo, losing his breakfast on hands and knees because he couldn't accept reality. Apologies to those of you who have not seen 'The Matrix')

Good insights here, and, using your analogy, the "red pill" must be freely chosen. Dr. Paul is against the initiation of force and fraud.

There is a perennial problem in campaigns with "newbies" with lots of energy making the same mistakes the rest of us have already made ;) (many times over). How quickly the culture of the campaign discourages counter-productive behavior is a barometer of the likely success of the campaign.

There is a lot of anger and dissatisfaction out there, understandably. Dr. Paul is tapping into that alienation and offering us hope that we didn't otherwise have. In addition, he's drawing support from lots of quarters that are not usually on the same side. While this condition is extremely encouraging for me and the future of the republic, it exacerbates the other problems.

For these reasons, I asked to be removed as a moderator here since I didn't want to lend my name to so much of what I see on this forum and how it's hurting the campaign. For similar reasons, I expressed myself in my rant (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=244558#poststop).

Ozwest
10-24-2007, 08:46 AM
Bradley in DC, I agree with with your analysis of the current situation regarding the influx of new supporters... In my opinion, new supporters, who are deemed "unconventional" are marginalized by others and chastised or treated dismissively... The repercussions of this alienation are now becoming evident... A "guiding light" is required.

Orat
10-24-2007, 08:53 AM
Perhaps I am being a bit uncharitable (then again, perhaps I am being cheritable, depending on how you look at it), but I think a lot of this sort of behaviour simply stems from some of these individuals being emotionally off-balance. And I mean that in the best way possible.

In the course of my travelling the country supporting Ron Paul, I have met hundreds of Ron Paul supporters. Most of them are some of the best people you will meet in your life and I lament the fact that I probably will never see most of them again. But there are undeniably a good handful of them who are somewhat disturbed and volatile. I'm not sure there is anything we can do to help that. I honestly think it is the sort of thing that may only be helped by medication. Yes, there are maybe a couple of people I've met who just needed to be talked to. But almost without exception, the ones who were really being loud and obnoxious were clearly not being so purely out of enthusiasm. They actually had a problem. And with people like this, I think the best we can do is to try and encourage them to funnel their support in ways that do not involve contact with the public.

On a related note, however, I think we should be very careful about the bullhorn marches. I've seen many people really turned off by someone screaming angrily into a bullhorn things like, "WHO YA GONNA CALL?" There is a line between enthusiasm and anger. And I've seen it crossed many times, and it is important to make sure our support for Ron is always as positive and cheerful as possible. We should never be confrontational.

Okay, that's my $0.02. :)

angelatc
10-24-2007, 08:56 AM
I love the marches, hate the bullhorn.

Meatwasp
10-24-2007, 09:01 AM
My mother came from the Czech republic and wow could she yell when something in politics didn't suit her. Ha!

partypooper
10-24-2007, 09:03 AM
I don't have any solutions, but I see the cause behind this behavior as many of us feel that the American public is asleep and that we need to be dramatic to wake them up.

i think that there is a lot of disrespect for the ordinary "sleepy" folk over here and that can never be good. people are the way they are and the key to the success is for them to recognize that dr paul is what they always wanted but were just not aware of it. we should allow people to vote for dr paul with the least possible change in their views instead of insisting on the biggest possible change.

unnecessary discussions should be avoided and sometimes it should even be granted to the opposing side that "dr paul is not perfect" or "i disagree with him on some issues" because the goal is not to persuade people to become paul- fanatics and "open their eyes" but to think that dr paul is better than any other candidate.

a lot of irrelevant changes are demanded by the grassroots (the view that american public is supposed to change perception of fawkes or whatever being a recent example) yet the only change we really need is a change in voting behavior: we don't need other people to become passionate supporters, just to vote for dr paul. when those demands for radical changes are coupled with disrespect we are doomed to lose miserably.

Ozwest
10-24-2007, 09:05 AM
Perhaps I am being a bit uncharitable (then again, perhaps I am being cheritable, depending on how you look at it), but I think a lot of this sort of behaviour simply stems from some of these individuals being emotionally off-balance. And I mean that in the best way possible.

In the course of my travelling the country supporting Ron Paul, I have met hundreds of Ron Paul supporters. Most of them are some of the best people you will meet in your life and I lament the fact that I probably will never see most of them again. But there are undeniably a good handful of them who are somewhat disturbed and volatile. I'm not sure there is anything we can do to help that. I honestly think it is the sort of thing that may only be helped by medication. Yes, there are maybe a couple of people I've met who just needed to be talked to. But almost without exception, the ones who were really being loud and obnoxious were clearly no being so purely out of enthusiasm. They actually had a problem. And with people like this, I think the best we can do is to try and encourage them to funnel their support in ways that do not involve contact with the public.

On a related note, however, I think we should be very careful about the bullhorn marches. I've seen many people really turned off by someone screaming angrily into a bullhorn things like, "WHO YA GONNA CALL?" There is a line between enthusiasm and anger. And I've seen it crossed many times, and it is important to make sure our support for Ron is always as positive and cheerful as possible. We should never be confrontational.

Okay, that's my $0.02. :)

As in any group, you will find emotionally unbalanced people (according to your defenition) . My defenition of unbalanced may be a Rudy Guilliani supporter... "Generalizations" are not constructive, no matter your "life experience".

rockwell
10-24-2007, 09:10 AM
"This was in no way a hit piece on Paul. It was simply the observation of the reporter."

Yes, of course, the media can always be trusted to be fair and impartial and report just the facts, isn't that right?

The use of the word "rabid" connotes a diseased animal, not a "simple observation".

I for one am sick unto death of this constant prostration at the feet of the media to be fair, to listen impartially, to report with integrity- they won't, not now, not ever because they are owned by the very people who do not want anything to change. Ron Paul represents change so radical it will shift the paradigm 180 degrees.

People are upset? No kidding? I wonder why, after all everything is going swimmingly in America these days, the economy is great, we're at peace, our representatives care about the will of the people, etc.

At what point do you wake up and get good and angry and demand change? How long are we supposed to roll over while they annoint the "choices" for an electorate that barely shows up at the polls?

I was stopped yesterday in a parking lot by a 60 something, former Marine who asked me about my Ron Paul bumper sticker. We talked CALMLY, but PASSIONATELY about the situation we, as Americans and as veterans faced today. I am certain that had the reporter heard us discussing the topic we'd be "rabid" and "lunatics" because neither of us trusted the media, believed our government, trusted in the electorate- in short we were two strangers, both hard working contributing members of American society who had served our government and it's people in the defense of our nation who had come to the same conclusion, logically, rationally and reasonably, that Ron Paul is the last chance America will get before we fall over the precipice.

I'm not a doomsday guy, I have always been upbeat, hard working, optimistic, but I am also intelligent and well informed and I can see tyranny when it's slouching through the land and if other people don't- or can't, that's their problem. Criminals have gained control of the highest seats of power- that's right criminals- mass murderers who wage illegal wars and force the citizenry to pay for the outrages they commit, the tortures and rapine, the destruction of cultures and infrastructures on the flimsiest of lies and all of it perpetuated by a media that NEVER seems to utter the truth, even obliquely.

So if someone at an Obama-fest fan shout-out caused the "reporter" distress because of his "rabidity" I guess we are striking a nerve. This is the coverage of a power structure on high alert, fearful of what they can see out in the countryside, a population that has had it with the criminality and duplicity and who want their country back in the hands of responsible and honorable stewards of public trust.


*climbs down off soap box*

Bradley in DC
10-24-2007, 09:11 AM
My mother came from the Czech republic and wow could she yell when something in politics didn't suit her. Ha!

What is suitable in a Communist country is one thing, here we're preaching respect for everyone's individual rights.

Orat
10-24-2007, 09:13 AM
As in any group, you will find emotionally unbalanced people (according to your defenition) . My defenition of unbalanced may be a Rudy Guilliani supporter... "Generalizations" are not constructive, no matter your "life experience".

Yes, I know you'll find them in any group. But it isn't a generalization. I've been around enough people who literally required medication to control themselves, and I know the behavior when I see it. I'm talking about a couple of cases in particular I've seen where they went so off that they started jumping in the air and twirling around. It took someone grabbing them by the collar and physically yanking them away. At which point it was obvious on their faces they knew they couldn't control themselves and needed help.

Other than people who fit this description, I've seen very few Ron Paul supporters who really make us look bad. For the most part, it's just people who need to know how to cater their message to their audience. Such as, don't tout Ronald Reagan's endorsements of Ron Paul to hippie-types, or don't lead in with his opposition to the war with hawkish Republicans.

Bradley in DC
10-24-2007, 09:21 AM
Bradley in DC, I agree with with your analysis of the current situation regarding the influx of new supporters... In my opinion, new supporters, who are deemed "unconventional" are marginalized by others and chastised or treated dismissively... The repercussions of this alienation are now becoming evident... A "guiding light" is required.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=244558#poststop

We need converts, lots of converts. Alienating posts are counterproductive.

Ozwest
10-24-2007, 09:22 AM
Well said rockwell, The thoughts of yourself and others of similar ilk need to be acknowledged.

Bradley in DC
10-24-2007, 09:25 AM
"This was in no way a hit piece on Paul. It was simply the observation of the reporter."

Yes, of course, the media can always be trusted to be fair and impartial and report just the facts, isn't that right?

*climbs down off soap box*

*helps Rockwell down off soap box*

The question is not one of the media but of how to win as many converts to our cause as possible. Attacking or making an enemy of the media is the worst way to go.

partypooper
10-24-2007, 09:26 AM
So if someone at an Obama-fest fan shout-out caused the "reporter" distress because of his "rabidity" I guess we are striking a nerve. This is the coverage of a power structure on high alert, fearful of what they can see out in the countryside, a population that has had it with the criminality and duplicity and who want their country back in the hands of responsible and honorable stewards of public trust.

"striking the nerve" is not the way to win - at all. scaring people is not the way to win either. if people are scared of dr paul' supporters, that is the problem for those supporters, not for those people. we need them to come to our side, they don't need us, they can vote whomever they please into the office.

TexMac
10-24-2007, 09:29 AM
This was in no way a hit piece on Paul. It was simply the observation of the reporter.

It was hardly just a "reporter."

Libby Hughes has just written a biography about Obama for young adults. It is called "Barack Obama: Voice of Unity, Hope, and Change" and will be out before Christmas.
http://www.capecodtoday.com/blogs/index.php/BostonBureau/2007/10/24/mobs_turn_out_for_obama_rally_1

Ozwest
10-24-2007, 09:34 AM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=244558#poststop

We need converts, lots of converts. Alienating posts are counterproductive.

With all due respect, my post was not meant to be counterproductive. I was attempting to discuss a problem that is obviously a concern... To describe my post as "Alienating" is hardly constructive.

rockwell
10-24-2007, 09:46 AM
"striking the nerve" is not the way to win - at all. scaring people is not the way to win either. if people are scared of dr paul' supporters, that is the problem of those supporters, not of those people. we need them go come to our side, they don't need us, they can vote whomever they please into the office.

Okay, I've already collected more than a hundred signatures on the petition to place Dr Paul on the ballot in my state- I am one guy who has three kids and runs a business and commutes 500 miles a week. I have had signage on my own property for going on six months, I've brought close to a dozen- mauybe more registered democrats over to the republican party JUST for the primary and easily convinced another 40-50 existing republicans to cast a vote for Paul, family, VFW guys, neighbors, employees. I didn't do it by being blase' and I have no idea what you encounter out there in the world, but in my neck of the woods, people are irate and I am being circumspect. If I told you some of the things I hear your head would spin.

I was addressing the media specifically. The MSM is NOT- I'll repeat that- NOT going to give Dr Paul even ho-hum coverage. It will intensify in it's rancor and opprobrium as he gathers momentum, it will not come around, wake up or any other description because it's very lifeblood is the paradigm that opposes Dr Paul- war, degeneracy, dependency, illiteracy, ignorance, vapidity.

If every one of you who read this single thread stopped worrying about them- simply tuned them out so to speak and went out and talked to people about why this election is crucial to America and their future, we wouldn't be having any issues with media coverage because they would be irrelevant.

I'm in business and anyone who's successful in business will tell you that you cannot make people buy what they do not want. You can try, but the result will be what see with the Obama/Clinton/Giuliani/Thompson campaigns- lots of top down corporate style support, as well as the so-called base (which has shrunk exponentially over the past several election cycles), but absolutely zero enthusiasm from the disaffected, the disenfranchised and the youth of this country, the very people that will carry this election if you can get them even a drop of hope about their future if Ron Paul is elected.

The media has painted itself into a corner, they have made themselves irrelevant and the more we demonstrate that we know that and simply shrug off their panicked (sp) attacks, the more confident you will become in reaching the very people who will make the change and elect the last, best hope for America.

Ron Paul.

smtwngrl
10-24-2007, 09:53 AM
Perhaps I am being a bit uncharitable (then again, perhaps I am being cheritable, depending on how you look at it), but I think a lot of this sort of behaviour simply stems from some of these individuals being emotionally off-balance. And I mean that in the best way possible.

...... But there are undeniably a good handful of them who are somewhat disturbed and volatile. I'm not sure there is anything we can do to help that. I honestly think it is the sort of thing that may only be helped by medication. Yes, there are maybe a couple of people I've met who just needed to be talked to. But almost without exception, the ones who were really being loud and obnoxious

That may be true, but the guy mentioned above doesn't seem to come in that category.


The man who collared them was Russian. He said, "You Americans don't realize that big government leads to tyranny. I've been through socialism and communism, I know. That's where you're going, too.

I'm thinking of Bradley's comment about supporters sometimes doing things that are unwise because of the need we feel to "wake people up". This guy is an obvious example of that. Put yourself in his place for a minute.

I think in this guy's case, he needs to do more than support Ron Paul. Maybe he needs to write a book or something. I'm sure that what he has to say is valuable, in the right context. And if he's able to get it out in a more appropriate contest, it might be easier to get him to calm down when doing grassroots activities for RP.

Even 10+ years ago, we listened to talk radio and heard an interview of a couple who had previously lived in Germany, before WWII. They left and came here because of the things they saw going on there. Eventually, they saw our country starting to go that same direction. They had written a book about their experiences. They were perfectly rational, not emotionally disturbed. We can learn from people who have experienced these kinds of things firsthand. In fact, sometimes what they have do say might be more powerful than anything we can say.

stevedasbach
10-24-2007, 09:56 AM
I was there at the Obama rally last night.
Overall, it went pretty well. We had at least 20 from our meetup group there with a few big banners and our signs. We handed out a lot of literature and spoke with some people who were receptive, some who were not, obviously.

The Russian guy mentioned in the article is in our group. Unfortunately he can be a little over the top at times. Oh well. You can't control everybody.

We also had a projector set up at the edge of the commons with the "A New Hope" video playing. A lot of people stopped to watch and talk with us.

My hope is just that we would try to encourage everyone who goes out to support Ron to stay positive. You never know when there is a reporter watching whose article will reach a lot of potential supporters.

To the other poster who asked -- that's why I started the thread.

Ozwest
10-24-2007, 09:56 AM
Okay, I've already collected more than a hundred signatures on the petition to place Dr Paul on the ballot in my state- I am one guy who has three kids and runs a business and commutes 500 miles a week. I have had signage on my own property for going on six months, I've brought close to a dozen- mauybe more registered democrats over to the republican party JUST for the primary and easily convinced another 40-50 existing republicans to cast a vote for Paul, family, VFW guys, neighbors, employees. I didn't do it by being blase' and I have no idea what you encounter out there in the world, but in my neck of the woods, people are irate and I am being circumspect. If I told you some of the things I hear your head would spin.

I was addressing the media specifically. The MSM is NOT- I'll repeat that- NOT going to give Dr Paul even ho-hum coverage. It will intensify in it's rancor and opprobrium as he gathers momentum, it will not come around, wake up or any other description because it's very lifeblood is the paradigm that opposes Dr Paul- war, degeneracy, dependency, illiteracy, ignorance, vapidity.

If every one of you who read this single thread stopped worrying about them- simply tuned them out so to speak and went out and talked to people about why this election is crucial to America and their future, we wouldn't be having any issues with media coverage because they would be irrelevant.

I'm in business and anyone who's successful in business will tell you that you cannot make people buy what they do not want. You can try, but the result will be what see with the Obama/Clinton/Giuliani/Thompson campaigns- lots of top down corporate style support, as well as the so-called base (which has shrunk exponentially over the past several election cycles), but absolutely zero enthusiasm from the disaffected, the disenfranchised and the youth of this country, the very people that will carry this election if you can get them even a drop of hope about their future if Ron Paul is elected.

The media has painted itself into a corner, they have made themselves irrelevant and the more we demonstrate that we know that and simply shrug off their panicked (sp) attacks, the more confident you will become in reaching the very people who will make the change and elect the last, best hope for America.

Ron Paul.

Your post illustrates the uselesness of preaching to the converted. The hard core Republicans,religious right and MSM will never endorse Ron Paul. If he is to be elected, our efforts should be directed towards a receptive audience. Seek and ye shall find.

smtwngrl
10-24-2007, 09:59 AM
Your post illustrates the uselesness of preaching to the converted. The hard core Republicans,religious right and MSM will never endorse Ron Paul. If he is to be elected, our efforts should be directed towards a receptive audience. Seek and ye shall find.

Maybe as a group they won't. But there are individuals in those groups who will. It pays not to write anyone off.

stevedasbach
10-24-2007, 10:01 AM
It was hardly just a "reporter."

Libby Hughes has just written a biography about Obama for young adults. It is called "Barack Obama: Voice of Unity, Hope, and Change" and will be out before Christmas.
http://www.capecodtoday.com/blogs/index.php/BostonBureau/2007/10/24/mobs_turn_out_for_obama_rally_1


My point was simply that this was an observation in the article on Obama. The article wasn't targeted at Paul. Another poster who knows the RP supporter in question has stated that he tends to go over the top, so I think the reporter's observation is probably accurate. We need to learn from the feedback we get so that we can more effectively promote Dr. Paul.

Ozwest
10-24-2007, 10:07 AM
Maybe as a group they won't. But there are individuals in those groups who will. It pays not to write anyone off.

I agree, never write off anybody, but search for the person who is "open" to Ron Pauls message, rather than the person who is "closed to your message... You will have a higher success rate and conserve your energy if you target the right people.

partypooper
10-24-2007, 10:08 AM
I didn't do it by being blase' and I have no idea what you encounter out there in the world, but in my neck of the woods, people are irate and I am being circumspect. If I told you some of the things I hear your head would spin.

i encounter a lot of people who don't care about politics and who are very easily turned off with the terms such as 'revolution', 'degeneracy', 'radical change' and the like.


I was addressing the media specifically. The MSM is NOT- I'll repeat that- NOT going to give Dr Paul even ho-hum coverage. It will intensify in it's rancor and opprobrium as he gathers momentum, it will not come around, wake up or any other description because it's very lifeblood is the paradigm that opposes Dr Paul- war, degeneracy, dependency, illiteracy, ignorance, vapidity.

the media doesn't need to "wake-up". it just needs to give more opportunities to dr paul to explain his ideas to the broader public. they are probably never going to embrace him in a way they embrace other candidates, but he doesn't need that. he just needs an outlet for his ideas and i think they will give that outlet to him if he does well in the early primaries.


I'm in business and anyone who's successful in business will tell you that you cannot make people buy what they do not want.

i am a psychologist and i absolutely agree with you. the problem is that most people don't want radical change. they might feel that the situation in the US is worse than it used to be, that there are soldiers being killed, and that the dollar is falling, but overall they do not have the sense of urgency nor it is necessary to create that sense in them for them to vote for dr paul.


but absolutely zero enthusiasm from the disaffected, the disenfranchised and the youth of this country, the very people that will carry this election if you can get them even a drop of hope about their future if Ron Paul is elected.

actually, i completely disagree with you on who is actually going to carry this election. this election, like every election, will be carried by ordinary people who watch cable tv, have a mediocre understanding of politics and world affairs and go to the elections out of habit and not out of passion. in fact i think that the campaign is making a mistake with playing on the 'youth card'. not everybody is thrilled to listen to what 18-year olds have to say about politics.

Meatwasp
10-24-2007, 10:14 AM
My mother fled the communist as the Russian did. They lived through it and are scared it will happen again. Maybe that is the passion. I don't condon yelling in your face but I understand his point. Someone should have gently urged him to stop.

rockwell
10-24-2007, 10:24 AM
My point was simply that this was an observation in the article on Obama. The article wasn't targeted at Paul. Another poster who knows the RP supporter in question has stated that he tends to go over the top, so I think the reporter's observation is probably accurate. We need to learn from the feedback we get so that we can more effectively promote Dr. Paul.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the woman who wrote the piece was pretty fast and loose with her descriptions of the event. Look at the words used to describe the Paul supporter- "rabid" and "tirade" and then the descriptions of the signs held up by the abortion opponents- then look at the pictures. Deliberate misquotes? Or were there even more opponents we couldn't see with other signs?

Then her fawning adulation over Obama-

"The man everyone waited to see and hear, moved in his Henry Fonda style gait to the podium. The reception was deafening--really deafening."

"Senator Obama was impeccably dressed"

"He flashed his winning smile and the crowd went ballistic."

There's more, but you get the point. It's what they call a "puff piece" and you read it- and comment on it- as if it were reportage, which it clearly isn't.

That's all.

rockwell
10-24-2007, 10:33 AM
i encounter a lot of people who don't care about politics and who are very easily turned off with the terms such as 'revolution', 'degeneracy', 'radical change' and the like.



the media doesn't need to "wake-up". it just needs to give more opportunities to dr paul to explain his ideas to the broader public. they are probably never going to embrace him in a way they embrace other candidates, but he doesn't need that. he just needs an outlet for his ideas and i think they will give that outlet to him if he does well in the early primaries.



i am a psychologist and i absolutely agree with you. the problem is that most people don't want radical change. they might feel that the situation in the US is worse than it used to be, that there are soldiers being killed, and that the dollar is falling, but overall they do not have the sense of urgency nor it is necessary to create that sense in them for them to vote for dr paul.



actually, i completely disagree with you on who is actually going to carry this election. this election, like every election, will be carried by ordinary people who watch cable tv, have a mediocre understanding of politics and world affairs and go to the elections out of habit and not out of passion. in fact i think that the campaign is making a mistake with playing on the 'youth card'. not everybody is thrilled to listen to what 18-year olds have to say about politics.


Okay, fair enough.

Do you have the data to back that up? A link perhaps?

Let's look at actual voting between 1960 and 2004-

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html

the important numbers here are the percentage of registered, versus turnout, a number that has faced a steady decline since 1960- the very people you claim are the ones who vote.

In 1960 more people turned out than there were registered voters- don't ask me to explain that one, maybe it had to do with the pre-civil rights act but by 2004 the percentage of those who could vote against those who did was down to a little over half. That leaves close to 100 million plus who are eligable voters who don't because they either don't care or realize that their vote doesn't matter. I would stack that number up against the people you refer to as the reliable voters who do so out of habit.

Edit to add:

You also wrote-

"i encounter a lot of people who don't care about politics and who are very easily turned off with the terms such as 'revolution', 'degeneracy', 'radical change' and the like."

I know a lot of people who think Saddam Hussein carried out 9/11, but I don't really worry about the left hand side of the bell curve, they will follow anyone who's in the lead. I care about people who are passionate who think critically and who contribute to the betterment of their families and communities and the nation because those are the ones who steer the course of history, not those who "don't care about politics" or are "turned off" with words that accurately describe our situation. I respect your opinion, but I think you've focused your energies and concerns on the very people who- as you said- don't care.

jon_perez
10-24-2007, 10:35 AM
Reading many of the posts here on ronpaulforums.com, I found myself wondering whether Paul was really as out-of-whack as some of his fans were, and started having doubts. It is really quite dismaying how it is FAR TOO EASY for even open-minded people to start thinking that maybe Ron Paul himself is a nutcase after encountering some overzealous lunatics preaching about how "apocalypse is imminent" if Ron Paul does not get elected.

One way to combat the serious black eye being given to RP by his foaming-in-the-mouth supporters is to show that there are far more normal, calm and rational people who support him than there are loonies (we have to admit that for some reason, Paul really attracts far more than his fair share of rabid fans compared to other candidates). After i saw his interview at Google, and listened to other recent interviews, I realized that Paul's support among the mainstream (e.g. people who do not require medication :D ) is quite strong. The VAST majority of Paul's supporters are normal, sane people, no matter how the crazed minority might try to make it look otherwise. I guess that's one important message we have to let out.

Ozwest
10-24-2007, 10:40 AM
Whenever I find myself distressed by Ron Paul zealots into thinking that maybe their candidate is as much of a nutcase as they are (it is quite dismaying how it is FAR TOO EASY for even open-minded people to conclude the former when they encounter some raving lunatic preaching about Ron Paul), I reassure myself by listening to Ron Paul himself speak and of course he comes off as being completely cool and rational.

One way to combat the serious black eye being given to RP by his foaming-in-the-mouth supporters is to show that there are far more normal, calm and rational people who support him than there are loonies (we have to admit that for some reason, Paul really attracts far more than his fair share of rabid fans compared to other candidates).

Reading many of the posts here on ronpaulforums.com, I found myself wondering whether Paul was really as out-of-whack as some of his fans were, and started having doubts. After i saw his interview at Google, and listened to other recent interviews, I realized that Paul's support among the mainstream (e.g. people who do not require medication :D ) is quite strong. The VAST majority of Paul's supporters are normal, sane people, no matter how the crazed minority might try to make it look otherwise. I guess that's the message we have to concentrate on.

Go to the Nannity (Hannity) forum, and that will definitely focus your concentration!

jon_perez
10-24-2007, 10:46 AM
People seem to take this issue lightly... but remember how Barry Goldwater lost to Lyndon Johnson because they were able to make it look like he had "fringe" views. Paul's foaming-in-the-mouth supporters are a serious liability.

Shink
10-24-2007, 10:51 AM
http://www.capecodtoday.com/blogs/index.php/BostonBureau/2007/10/24/mobs_turn_out_for_obama_rally

Obama Rocks at the Boston Rally

Bostonians went wild

By Libby Hughes, Boston Bureau for Cape Cod Today

<snip>

Then, a rabid Ron Paul supporter approached a young couple behind me. They were independents, willing to listen to anyone. The man who collared them was Russian. He said, "You Americans don't realize that big government leads to tyranny. I've been through socialism and communism, I know. That's where you're going, too. The government will take all your money." By the end of his tirade, he was shouting.

<snip>

This was in no way a hit piece on Paul. It was simply the observation of the reporter.

There are way too many reports like this. IMO, this type of behavior is really undermining Paul's campaign.

Whenever we encounter this type of behavior from our fellow Paul supporters, offline or online, we need to whatever we can to discourage it. You don't get a second chance to make a first impression -- let's make sure the first impressions people get from Paul supporters are positive.

First Amendment: deal with it. People will be people, and your 'way too many reports'/'undermining the campaign' statements are dubious, to say the least. Nothing wrong about issuing stern warnings about socialism here and there either.

kylejack
10-24-2007, 10:52 AM
People seem to take this issue lightly... but remember how Barry Goldwater lost to Lyndon Johnson because they were able to make it look like he had "fringe" views. Paul's foaming-in-the-mouth supporters are a serious liability.

As usual, this anecdoctal stuff refers to the views of the actual candidate, and not a select few of his supporters.

But yes, all Ron Paul fans should act appropriately.

Eli
10-24-2007, 10:54 AM
please quit making threads like this!
I"m sick of it! sick of it! sick of it!

please we need to do something, its 10 threads a day about single ron paul supporters upsetting someone and that person getting all butt hurt. Knock it off! <-not the promoting, but the whining about other grassroots people not doing what you're doing.

Bradley in DC
10-24-2007, 11:00 AM
With all due respect, my post was not meant to be counterproductive. I was attempting to discuss a problem that is obviously a concern... To describe my post as "Alienating" is hardly constructive.

I wasn't referring to your posts (actually, I was thinking of the bad behavior of Paul supporters on RedState and elsewhere).

Original_Intent
10-24-2007, 11:01 AM
please quit making threads like this!
I"m sick of it! sick of it! sick of it!

please we need to do something, its 10 threads a day about single ron paul supporters upsetting someone and that person getting all butt hurt. Knock it off! <-not the promoting, but the whining about other grassroots people not doing what you're doing.

I don't see it as bitching about a few supporters. I see it as we each take a hard look at what we are doing and if we are hurting or helping the campaign, and what we each can do to improve.

Shink we are not trying to step on people's first amendment rights, we are encouraging people to behave in ways that are going to get us the end result we want. Which if we are on this forum that end result should be getting Ron Paul elected.

You have a First Amendment right to wear a "F@#$ you if you are not a Libertarian" t-shirt, but are you defending that if someone wants to wear that while promoting Ron Paul that we should all be supportive of that?

They have a First Amendment right to wear the shirt, and we have a First Amendment right (and I would say further an obligation to this campaign) to say they are a stupid dumbass for doing it.

freelance
10-24-2007, 11:04 AM
I can't stand it anymore. Could someone PUHLEASE change Rapid to Rabid in the title?

rockwell
10-24-2007, 11:05 AM
Reading many of the posts here on ronpaulforums.com, I found myself wondering whether Paul was really as out-of-whack as some of his fans were, and started having doubts. It is really quite dismaying how it is FAR TOO EASY for even open-minded people to start thinking that maybe Ron Paul himself is a nutcase after encountering some overzealous lunatics preaching about how "apocalypse is imminent" if Ron Paul does not get elected.

One way to combat the serious black eye being given to RP by his foaming-in-the-mouth supporters is to show that there are far more normal, calm and rational people who support him than there are loonies (we have to admit that for some reason, Paul really attracts far more than his fair share of rabid fans compared to other candidates). After i saw his interview at Google, and listened to other recent interviews, I realized that Paul's support among the mainstream (e.g. people who do not require medication :D ) is quite strong. The VAST majority of Paul's supporters are normal, sane people, no matter how the crazed minority might try to make it look otherwise. I guess that's one important message we have to let out.


This is absolutely a perspective issue. Someone who looks at a chart like this, for example-

http://www.economagic.com/chartg/fedstl/m3sl.gif

who doesn't become alarmed would- at least to me- require medication, whereas those who fits into this category-

"Nearing the second anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, seven in 10 Americans continue to believe that Iraq's Saddam Hussein had a role in the attacks"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A32862-2003Sep5?language=printer

are not only unmedicated, they're in the majority.

Sometimes having a discussion of politics in this day and age with people you don't know personally is like trying to have a conversation with a street person in NYC. You know you're sane, but it is clearly crazy to engage someone who hasn't got both oars in the water, and yet you give it the old college try.

America isn't going through a rough patch, the media hasn't failed to do their job and the Bush administration isn't incompetent. It's like the poor Puritans who believed that black cats caused their miscarriage. We live in a era of universal deciet and unfathomable ignorance of the realities around us. We are engaged in an illegal war because we were manipulated into it, not out of neccessity. I could go on, but you get the gist of it. It is maddening, it is frustrating and it requires a level of maturity and sobriety to deal with such inexplicable apathy and ignorance that would normally lead to sainthood, and yet here we find ourselves, virtually reading off the same script politically, yet trying to tell one another that everything will be hunky dory if we just smile and explain ourselves calmly to people who haven't got a basic grasp on their own personal finances, never mind meta-politics.

Bradley in DC
10-24-2007, 11:06 AM
please quit making threads like this!
I"m sick of it! sick of it! sick of it!

please we need to do something, its 10 threads a day about single ron paul supporters upsetting someone and that person getting all butt hurt. Knock it off! <-not the promoting, but the whining about other grassroots people not doing what you're doing.

The threads are IN RESPONSE to bad behavior of Paul supporters that is hurting the campaign. We are trying to change the culture here from promoting actions and posts that hurts the campaign towards ways that get Dr. Paul elected.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=28349

rockwell
10-24-2007, 11:13 AM
As usual, this anecdoctal stuff refers to the views of the actual candidate, and not a select few of his supporters.

But yes, all Ron Paul fans should act appropriately.

http://memewatch.com/thelist/archives/pix/morans.jpg

And Yet Bush won...TWICE.

Stop worrying about what the MSM reports. If every last Ron Paul supporter was a PhD, they'd hire a batallion of wackjobs to infiltrate.

Go out and talk to someone, tell them how important this is and that Ron Paul is the candidate that will best serve America, the media is irrelevant.

smtwngrl
10-24-2007, 12:30 PM
please quit making threads like this!
I"m sick of it! sick of it! sick of it!

please we need to do something, its 10 threads a day about single ron paul supporters upsetting someone

I really don't think it's 10 threads a day. ;)

But if it's driving you crazy, don't read them! There's no use causing yourself undue stress.

All we are trying to do is get Ron Paul elected. And this is an obstacle that exists, that we need to know how to deal with. I think there's some intelligent discussion here.

pcosmar
10-24-2007, 12:31 PM
The threads are IN RESPONSE to bad behavior of Paul supporters that is hurting the campaign. We are trying to change the culture here from promoting actions and posts that hurts the campaign towards ways that get Dr. Paul elected.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=28349

No it is not.
This thread is in response to a media report of an emotional response to ONE Ron Paul supporter out of a hundred.
The campaign is growing every day.
The Media does hit pieces every day, and they will continue.
They will LIE, they will distort and they will exaggerate.
Accept it and get over it.

Captain Shays
10-24-2007, 01:56 PM
Steve,

I'm pretty well informed and I read a lot fo the right stuff and listen to a lot fo the right people.
My question to you, is how deeply and under what circumstances should we get into the New World Order, the NAU, NAFTA, CAFTA, FTAA, SPP, and the Federal Reserve?
My take right now, and you may disagree, is that we're not running against the main stream Republicans. We're running against the CFR and Mike Huckabee.

To me, the CFR is the cornerstone of the mainstream media, the extra-national trade agreements, the military industrial complex and the financial system that is both draining our wealth and transferring it to developing countries and multi-national corporate interests.

Am I wrong?

stevedasbach
10-24-2007, 05:26 PM
I can't stand it anymore. Could someone PUHLEASE change Rapid to Rabid in the title?

Sorry about the typo. Unfortunately I can't edit the title.

freedominnumbers
10-24-2007, 05:32 PM
Just review your Anita Andrews course materials with supporters before you go out talking to people.

Smile, wave, never argue, you win.

kaleidoscope eyes
10-24-2007, 05:37 PM
http://www.capecodtoday.com/blogs/index.php/BostonBureau/2007/10/24/mobs_turn_out_for_obama_rally

Obama Rocks at the Boston Rally

Bostonians went wild

By Libby Hughes, Boston Bureau for Cape Cod Today

<snip>

Then, a rabid Ron Paul supporter approached a young couple behind me. They were independents, willing to listen to anyone. The man who collared them was Russian. He said, "You Americans don't realize that big government leads to tyranny. I've been through socialism and communism, I know. That's where you're going, too. The government will take all your money." By the end of his tirade, he was shouting.

<snip>

This was in no way a hit piece on Paul. It was simply the observation of the reporter.

There are way too many reports like this. IMO, this type of behavior is really undermining Paul's campaign.

Whenever we encounter this type of behavior from our fellow Paul supporters, offline or online, we need to whatever we can to discourage it. You don't get a second chance to make a first impression -- let's make sure the first impressions people get from Paul supporters are positive.
yes, one can attract more with honey than with vinegar.

stevedasbach
10-24-2007, 05:37 PM
Steve,

I'm pretty well informed and I read a lot fo the right stuff and listen to a lot fo the right people.
My question to you, is how deeply and under what circumstances should we get into the New World Order, the NAU, NAFTA, CAFTA, FTAA, SPP, and the Federal Reserve?
My take right now, and you may disagree, is that we're not running against the main stream Republicans. We're running against the CFR and Mike Huckabee.

To me, the CFR is the cornerstone of the mainstream media, the extra-national trade agreements, the military industrial complex and the financial system that is both draining our wealth and transferring it to developing countries and multi-national corporate interests.

Am I wrong?

Assuming I'm the Steve you directed this to, here's my 2-cents worth:

IMO, we need to take our lead from Dr. Paul in how we promote his candidacy. Stress the issues he stresses. Otherwise potential supporters get mixed messages.

I don't think we're running "against" any of the other candidates -- at least not yet. We're building support for Dr. Paul. People are already unhappy with their choices. We have to show them they have a choice who "doesn't completely suck" (as Liv puts it). And we have to convince them that he can win.

Adamsa
10-24-2007, 05:53 PM
Honestly I think if we stay away from conspiracy theories like Zionists running the world and 9/11 being an inside job, we'd be completely fine, only thing then we'd be guilty of is perhaps having too much passion for Ron's campaign.

jon_perez
10-25-2007, 08:13 AM
Honestly I think if we stay away from conspiracy theories like Zionists running the world and 9/11 being an inside job...Absolutely. For one thing, these beliefs don't even reflect Ron Paul's views at all!

Captain Shays
10-28-2007, 09:25 AM
I get what you guys are saying, especially Steve. But..... (ain't there always a but?)

But the CFR is a very real group who inhabits a very real office in NYC and who has a very real list of members including Hillary, Obama, Edwards, Richardson, Biden, Dodd, Goulaini, McCain, Romney and Thompson.
Their agenda is also very real and well expressed. Their influence is remarkable and wide spread politically socially, globally and in the media.

Everything about these people, their philospphy and their actions is opposed to the sound Constitutional princples that our candidate believes in.

It is no more a 'theory" in my opinion to point out who they are, and what they want to do, any more than to point out who the Democrats are and what they want to do. The CFR is every bit as real as the Democrat Party or the Republican Party, and their names are not secrets nor is their agenda which is globalization.

The CFR is a potent and real threat to all of us. To our liberties and our sovereignty as a nation. They through their influence in the media are corrupting and have corrupted our electoral process. Their foreign policy is based in interventionism and is shared by all of the candidates who are members from both the major parties.

I respect Steve's opinion as I do everyone else who has responded to myquestion, but with respect, I need to say, that we would be making a huge mistake not to focus on the threats posed by electing another CFR candidate to the presidency let alone any other office.

In peace, truth and liberty,

Captain Shays

No Opinion
10-28-2007, 10:01 AM
Maybe we will see those Rabid Guiliani supporters acting out and screaming at people when they don't agree with them on the streets. You know the ones, the ones that tell you that you have no idea what's best for you and that whatever Rudy wants to do to protect you, it's in your best interest to conform. I've heard it myself. Isn't it our duty to make sure these actions are exposed?

Maybe we will see those young supporters wearing Guiliani baseball caps along with their 9-11 truth shirts chanting behind Rudy when the cameras are on. I've seen this too, it's a shame this isn't caught on camera more.

Maybe we will see more of the Romney supporters telling the crowd just how wrong their religious beliefs are and they need to repent now. I've been approached like this. Shouldn't this be exposed? I think so.

evadmurd
10-28-2007, 12:02 PM
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Ghandi.

No need to flame me about comparing Dr. Paul to Christ. Not my intention. Just an example of how followers, however well intentioned, can be a stumbling block more than a help. Several old and stale cliches come to mind that I won't repeat.

Revolution9
10-28-2007, 01:52 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=244558#poststop

We need converts, lots of converts. Alienating posts are counterproductive.

Then why do you continue to post several daily? You totally piss me off and I have not been to any Saturday rallies for two weeks now because this BS from hacks and wonks and control freaks just has me turned off to the whole thing. My momentum has dimnished greatly. I was going to key an event at The Fox for RP but frankly..I don't wanna listen to all the crap and have to do all the crap as well.

Do this..don't do that..this needs changing to fit my will,,act the way I say.. Do things the way I want them done or we lose.. I am sick and fed up to the rafters with this spew day after day from people like you, who want to "help" and the other control freak who started this trite and drivelling plunge into the dpeths of the bowel movement that has passed as journalism from the politiwonks here....a national head honcho type of control freak apparently,..so we should give his pushy ass special kudos..jeesh.... You helped me get demotivated. I don't work well under control freaks and why should I report any actvities to this forum when a bunch of posters here are just gonna control freak all over me. Then I will answer them in a manner well deserved by them and then recieve a warning from the moderators..

Bradley..get a new attitude. America is NOT DC. You report all the trivial crap spewed out by the bought and paid for machines there and think it matters. You are one discouraging wonk with a case of self importance that blinders you. You control nothing except your own ass. Just like everybody else in Gods Green Creation. To the National Political head Honchoid who started this thread. A handy piss up a rope pal to you.. Tp the fool who proscribed meds for some of the people he met.. I think the problem may not be mental but a physical all;ergenic problem to substances that are unnatural in ther foodstuffs..or there is neural degeneration from TV viewing. The fact that you say they need meds shows the type of shadow riven mindspace you inhabit. You are no better than a eugenics spewing Rockefeller foundation shill.

Rant off
Randy

Zack
10-28-2007, 03:20 PM
I believe Bush was a bit behind in the polls against Kerry when the Republican Convention took place in NY in 2004.

But then I watched slogan-chanting anti-war protesters block up the streets, make lots of noise, and get in people's way, during the convention.

I remarked on that day that because of the subconscious psychological reaction people would have watching this on the news, that George Bush would be re-elected.

I didn't even think it. I all but knew it. That's just the way most people subconsciously react to slogan-chanting protest crowds. Regardless of the message.

On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, George Walker Bush, the President of the United States, was elected over Democratic candidate John Kerry, United States Senator from Massachusetts.

Adamsa
10-28-2007, 03:36 PM
Informing people rather than shouting at them is always the better option.

Jared Callanan
10-28-2007, 05:08 PM
I think we can learn from some of these negative pieces meaning the ones that discuss Ron Paul supporters in a singular fashion.

terlinguatx
10-28-2007, 05:29 PM
The Obama zombies need a good shaking. I bet less than 1% of them are familiar with the issues, and are just voting for him because they think it'd be a cute novelty to have a half-black president.

JohnXSmith
10-30-2007, 07:35 AM
Steve, as usual, you are dead right. The biggest problem with the campaign's chances of success right now, aside from very low name recognition, is the behavior of his supporters.

Nope, I disagree. The biggest problem is the Diebold machines.

kylejack
10-30-2007, 07:36 AM
Nope, I disagree. The biggest problem is the Diebold machines.

We can expose any hijinks with exit polls.

freelance
10-30-2007, 07:56 AM
We can expose any hijinks with exit polls.

Didn't Kerry's exit polls show him clearly in the lead in precincts that "registered" decisive leads for Bush?

Check out The Brad Blog to see all the latest news on electronic voting:

http://www.bradblog.com/

ladyliberty
10-30-2007, 07:57 AM
Does this mean I can't wear my tin foil hat anymore when I tell people about Ron Paul? ;)

Dan Klaus
10-30-2007, 02:10 PM
Thanks for the reminder Steve...the point is certainly valid...

I would like to speak to our Russian friend..anyone know him?? I have lived in the former soviet union for almost 13 years and think I can relate to his passion...a little cross-cultural lesson might be in order..pm me..

LOL at Rockwells's avatar..

Dan Klaus
10-30-2007, 02:15 PM
Nope, I disagree. The biggest problem is the Diebold machines.

...BINGO!!!...

jabowery
10-30-2007, 03:23 PM
Rule #1 of telling people about Ron Paul is not to argue with them -- its a HUGE waste of time.

Offer them information about Ron Paul's positions and clarify his positions if need be but do NOT get into an argument about their merits with casual contacts!

Virtually none of the people looking to argue with you are going to change their minds either. Many just like arguing and wasting your time and the rest have already made up their minds and will not be changed short of an extended educational experience for which they must volunteer and for which you do not have the resources!

pcosmar
10-30-2007, 03:46 PM
I have had good luck letting Ron Paul sell himself, I just present him.
That said, I have thought about getting some foam or lather, just for the up-tight folks around here.

Bark at the Moon.

Zack
01-09-2008, 07:05 AM
I'm not the author of this thread, but I'm bumping it over 2 months after it was posted, for relevance to the results in New Hampshire. If having the highest amount of visible/loud support got votes, Ron Paul would have won. You can make either a good impression or bad impression. We are relatively intelligent, professional people, calling for a return to Constitutional government. Lawful goverment. We often come across looking like the annoying rabble that blocked up streets and pretty much won Bush the election by protesting outside the Republican convention in NY in 2004.

RonRules
01-09-2008, 07:46 AM
When you canvass and someone says "I like _______ instead". Respond with "He does make good points too" or something non-confrontational. Then ask "What are your most important issues?" You'll end up talking for minutes instead of a staring at a closed door.

There are canvassing classes on the new. Please check them out.