Wisconsin Senate PASSES Gov. Walker's anti-Collective Bargaining Bill

[FrankRep]

http://dailyreporter.com/files/2010/11/wisconsin-walker.jpg
Scott Walker, Wisconsin Governor (http://walker.wi.gov/index.asp?locid=177)


Wis. GOP bypasses Dems on collective bargaining (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WISCONSIN_BUDGET_UNIONS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-03-09-19-32-37)


Associated Press
March 9, 2011



MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate voted Wednesday night to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from public workers after discovering a way to bypass the chamber's missing Democrats.

All 14 Senate Democrats fled to Illinois nearly three weeks ago, preventing the chamber from having enough members present to consider Gov. Scott Walker's so-called "budget repair bill" - a proposal introduced to plug a $137 million budget shortfall.

The Senate requires a quorum to take up any measures that spend money. But Republicans on Wednesday split from the legislation the proposal to curtail union rights, which spends no money, and a special conference committee of state lawmakers approved the bill a short time later.



http://thenewamerican.com/images/stories2011/10aMarch/tna-cover-6.001.jpg (http://www.shopjbs.org/index.php/tna/subscriptions/1-year-standard-subscription.html)



Madison, Wisconsin — nicknamed Madtown — launched the fight between public-employee unions that want to continue the status quo, and taxpayers concerned over debt.


Wisconsin Erupts: Ground Zero for National Movements (http://thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6569-wisconsin-erupts-ground-zero-for-national-movements)


Alex Newman | The New American (http://thenewamerican.com/)
04 March 2011



Related News:


Wisconsin’s Budget Crisis & Proposed Reforms (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6575-wisconsins-budget-crisis-a-proposed-reforms)

Runaway Wisconsin Democrats Face Trouble as Layoffs Loom (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6564-runaway-wisconsin-democrats-face-trouble-as-layoffs-loom)

Government, Unions, and the Battle in Wisconsin (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6531-govt-unions-and-the-battle-in-wisconsin)

Big, International Consequences in Wisconsin Union Battle (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6528-big-international-consequences-in-wisconsin-union-battle)

"Peaceful" Wisconsin Protestors? (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6548-peaceful-wisconsin-protestors)

Wisconsin Cops Refuse Orders, Join Protests (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6513-wisconsin-cops-refuse-orders-join-protests)

Rallies Across U.S. Back Wisconsin Protestors (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6501-rallies-across-us-back-wisconsin-protestors)

Wisconsin Protests Go National (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6476-wisconsin-chaos-go-national)

Wisconsin Assembly Passes Budget Repair Bill (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6467-wisconsin-house-passes-budget-repair-bill)

Wisconsin Protests: The Reforms, the Reality (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6458-wisconsin-protests-the-reforms-the-reality)

Wisconsin Teachers, Doctors Caught Lying Could Face Trouble (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/crime/6442-wis-teachers-doctors-caught-lying-could-face-trouble)

Tea Party Shows Support for Wis. Gov. Walker, Reforms (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6410-tea-party-shows-support-for-wis-gov-walker-reforms)

Wisconsin Gov. to Obama: Butt Out (http://thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6381-wisconsin-gov-to-obama-butt-out)

[One Last Battle!]

Daaaamn

So much for that trick, eh?

[Cowlesy]

mwaaahahahaahahahaha

F U UNIONS!

[AuH20]

The Wisconsin GOP is counting on that the unions will overreact. This is a high-stakes chess game.

[1000-points-of-fright]

http://www.buzzpirates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/nelson2.gif

[QueenB4Liberty]

Well that took long enough.

[ItsTime]

Well the dems didnt want their vote counted anyway. lol I guess be careful for what you wish fore.

[Inkblots]

It's about darn time! However, I'm slightly worried about this:


Republican senators quickly assembled at 4 p.m. to send the bill to a conference committee, which convenes at 6 p.m. They largely declined comment after the meeting.

Attorney Robert Dreps, an expert on the state open meetings law, said he did not believe the conference committee could meet with such short notice.

State law generally requires a 24-hour notice for public meetings, but can be called with just two hours notice when more notice is impossible or impractical, said Dreps, who has represented the Journal Sentinel in the past.

“I can’t imagine how they can meet that standard,” he said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41996994/ns/politics-more_politics/

This reform better stick. My nightmare is that some GOP senators are recalled, and then a court rules the bill was improperly passed afterwards, when it's impossible to vote it through again. :(

Of course, then again, with the capital building alreaady swarmed with protesters and union thugs, maybe they could argue longer notice would indeed have been impractical....

[ItsTime]

It is impractical when you are being threatened with violence......

[TroySmith]

Hopefully Indiana follows suit!

[Southron]

What happens when a federal judge throws it out? That's always the backup plan for the establishment.

[cswake]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/us/10wisconsin.html


The bill makes significant changes to most public sector unions, limiting collective bargaining to matters of wages only and limiting raises to the Consumer Price Index unless the public approves higher raises in a referendum. It requires most unions to hold votes annually to determine whether most workers still wish to be members. And it ends the state’s collection of union dues from paychecks.

[FrankRep]

What happens when a federal judge throws it out? That's always the backup plan for the establishment.

Conservative and Tea Party Hellfire will come raining down. I dare a Federal Judge to overturn it.

[jth_ttu]

Im kind of torn on this issue. I believe people have to right to collectively bargain but since these are public employees and they are bargaining for more money that has been stolen from the private sector I kind of agree with the governor. After all the taxpayers are the employers but really have no say in any of the dealings with the union. Is anybody else not really sure about this?

[FrankRep]

Im kind of torn on this issue. I believe people have to right to collectively bargain but since these are public employees and they are bargaining for more money that has been stolen from the private sector I kind of agree with the governor. After all the taxpayers are the employers but really have no say in any of the dealings with the union. Is anybody else not really sure about this?

Hopefully this will make you feel less torn on the issue.



Franklin Delano Roosevelt (FDR), Mr. Progressive, warned against collective bargaining for government unions.

Read his 1937 letter:



All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

And


Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=15445


http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/188655_10150093408051650_188467256649_6752990_2997 257_n.jpg

[sailingaway]

It's about darn time! However, I'm slightly worried about this:


Republican senators quickly assembled at 4 p.m. to send the bill to a conference committee, which convenes at 6 p.m. They largely declined comment after the meeting.

Attorney Robert Dreps, an expert on the state open meetings law, said he did not believe the conference committee could meet with such short notice.

State law generally requires a 24-hour notice for public meetings, but can be called with just two hours notice when more notice is impossible or impractical, said Dreps, who has represented the Journal Sentinel in the past.

“I can’t imagine how they can meet that standard,” he said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41996994/ns/politics-more_politics/

This reform better stick. My nightmare is that some GOP senators are recalled, and then a court rules the bill was improperly passed afterwards, when it's impossible to vote it through again. :(

Of course, then again, with the capital building alreaady swarmed with protesters and union thugs, maybe they could argue longer notice would indeed have been impractical....

Then they should do it with proper notice. However, it is entirely possible they never recessed, given they were waiting for the Dems to appear at any time.

It isn't like they were avoiding the Dems, if the Dems return, they have quorum and can vote the whole package through.

[sailingaway]

Im kind of torn on this issue. I believe people have to right to collectively bargain but since these are public employees and they are bargaining for more money that has been stolen from the private sector I kind of agree with the governor. After all the taxpayers are the employers but really have no say in any of the dealings with the union. Is anybody else not really sure about this?

I think VOLUNTARY collective bargaining in the private sector is fine. In the public sector, the people footing the bill for the concessions aren't really at the table except for the collective bargaining of elections, and I think it is appropriate that public sector workers should be restricted the same way - plus of course they can choose not to work for a wage they don't find acceptable.

In the private sector the one actually footing the bill is on the other side of the negotiations.

I don't think forcing someone to be in a union to work is right, though.

But I think it is a state matter, so Wisconsin can do what it wants.

[Stary Hickory]

mwaaahahahaahahahaha

F U UNIONS!

My sentiments exactly

Feels liberating to beat back the bloodsuckers.

[Cowlesy]

My sentiments exactly

Feels liberating to beat back the bloodsuckers.

Amen. There is no reason for citizens who have a monopoly on certain services to be able to en masse vote in the people who will give them wealth.

Screw you public unions. Eat S and D.

[forsmant]

I think attacking the middle class democrats and public unions is a diversion from the real ruling class. Corporate control of American government at all levels is a greater threat then paying too much for police protection. Corporations like JP Morgan, Monsanto, Phillip Morris, Haliburton, Moodys, and whatever cartels I haven't listed pose a much greater threat to our freedom. The republican party is using our anger at bailouts to attack the democrat parties base of public unions. These public unions are corrupt and deserving of scrutiny but I question the motives of Governor Walker when some public unions are exempt and his solution does nothing to curtail the defined benefit pension plans. The Wisconsin republican party is not a friend of freedom. Just look at their record. Paul Ryan voted for nearly everything Bush policy. The RNC chair is the definition of party insider. I am weary of their motivation for this legislation.

I understand the havoc public unions create on state budgets but I do not believe this Wisconsin legislation will shrink the liabilities caused by public pension systems. The pension losses caused by the stock market crash of 2008 are a major part of budget shortfalls today.

[Stary Hickory]

Im kind of torn on this issue. I believe people have to right to collectively bargain but since these are public employees and they are bargaining for more money that has been stolen from the private sector I kind of agree with the governor. After all the taxpayers are the employers but really have no say in any of the dealings with the union. Is anybody else not really sure about this?

I don't get why you are torn? The government has not told them they cannot collectively bargain, they simply said that as an employer they will not hire or employ people who engage in collective bargaining, moreover all they have said is that they will not entertain or allow collective bargaining to determine certain aspects of their employment.. As an employer WI can make any terms it wants, and as a laborer or employee workers may or may not accept those terms and find employment elsewhere.

You do not have the right to force your will on others, employers offer pay and benefits to attract workers, workers offer services in return, both sides must agree to the exchange. Yet here you argue that the workers have the right to force terms on the employer, would you also support the reverse where employees were forced to labor(meaning they cannot quit) under certain terms that were forced upon them?

It is an exchange, WI offers money which represents the entire spectrum of goods and services in exchange for the services the workers will provide. You cannot use force on either side of the equation in the free market.

[AuH20]

I think attacking the middle class democrats and public unions is a diversion from the real ruling class. Corporate control of American government at all levels is a greater threat then paying too much for police protection. Corporations like JP Morgan, Monsanto, Phillip Morris, Haliburton, Moodys, and whatever cartels I haven't listed pose a much greater threat to our freedom. The republican party is using our anger at bailouts to attack the democrat parties base of public unions. These public unions are corrupt and deserving of scrutiny but I question the motives of Governor Walker when some public unions are exempt and his solution does nothing to curtail the defined benefit pension plans. The Wisconsin republican party is not a friend of freedom. Just look at their record. Paul Ryan voted for nearly everything Bush policy. The RNC chair is the definition of party insider. I am weary of their motivation for this legislation.

I understand the havoc public unions create on state budgets but I do not believe this Wisconsin legislation will shrink the liabilities caused by public pension systems. The pension losses caused by the stock market crash of 2008 are a major part of budget shortfalls today.

Don't worry. Wall Street is next. We have our gaze firmly affixed to the Fed. They will get theirs in due time. In the meantime, it's perfectly alright to slap back at the unions. One corrupt special interest at a time.

[Stary Hickory]

The FED is going to abolish itself very soon. And I hope it takes all the leeching wall street banks and corporations with it.

[FrankRep]

The FED is going to abolish itself very soon.

The IMF is ready to take power. All apart of the plan.


http://www.thenewamerican.com/images/stories/Econ_9_10/2619-cs.jpg (http://www.shopjbs.org/index.php/tna/subscriptions/1-year-standard-subscription.html)


2010: The Emerging Global Federal Reserve (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/economy/economics-mainmenu-44/4602-the-emerging-global-fed)


As powerful as the Federal Reserve is, just imagine how much more powerful a global Fed would be in terms of its ability to control the global economy and an emerging world currency. By Alex Newman

2010: Waking up to a World Currency (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/economy/economics-mainmenu-44/4591-waking-up-to-a-world-currency)


If global financial elites have their way, America will move quickly toward accepting a planetary fiat currency (a currency not backed by a precious commodity like gold) issued by a world central bank. by Alex Newman

2010: IMF Report Promotes Global Fiat Currency, World Central Bank (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/economy/economics-mainmenu-44/4262-imf-report-promotes-world-currency)


An April report from the International Monetary Fund promoting a world central bank and a global fiat currency went totally undetected by the global press for months, but after a blog post earlier this month, it is now in the media spotlight. By Alex Newman

[UtahApocalypse]

Getting rumors that "a mob" of people has "broken" into the Cpital and now doors and windows are all open with a couple hundred protesters streaming in.

[Ninja Homer]

This is awesome, but I'm still pissed that the media keeps yammering that collective bargaining "rights" are being taken away. They just revoked some of the collective bargaining special privileges that the state granted them long ago.

[FrankRep]

Getting rumors that "a mob" of people has "broken" into the Capital and now doors and windows are all open with a couple hundred protesters streaming in.


Rabid Leftists Storm Wisconsin Capitol After Vote
http://nation.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/09/rabid-leftists-storm-wisconsin-capitol-after-vote

Thousands storm the Capitol as state reacts to budget votes in Legislature
http://host.madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_260247e0-4ac4-11e0-bfa9-001cc4c03286.html

Thousands of protesters converge on Wis. Capitol
http://www.wxow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14222246

[FrankRep]

Michael Moore: This Is War!
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/03/09/michael_moore_reacts_to_wisconsin_union_vote_this_ is_war.html



Flashback:


Really Rich Michael Moore Says All Wealthy Americans' Money is Not Theirs It's 'Ours'


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzfd_sNw2-Y

[osan]

I was wondering whether they would find some obscure provision for bypassing the quorum requirement - and they did.

Outstanding.

Dear SEIU and all other unions,

NEENER NEENER NEENER.

Assholes.

[raystone]

Livestream at the WI Capitol

http://www.livestream.com/theuptake

[FrankRep]

Sounds like the Unions are planning a State/National Strike.


Ronald Reagan has an answer to that.


Ronald Reagan's ultimatum to striking air traffic controllers
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan%27s_ultimatum_to_striking_air_traffi c_controllers

[EndDaFed]

So the 12,000 layoffs are next?

[FrankRep]

So the 12,000 layoffs are next?

No. If the budget reform failed, the Gov. would be forced to layoff state workers.

[EndDaFed]

No. If the budget reform failed, the Gov. would be forced to layoff state workers.

I thought he said he was going to do it anyways regardless if the bill passed or not.

[rprprs]

Getting rumors that "a mob" of people has "broken" into the Cpital and now doors and windows are all open with a couple hundred protesters streaming in.

I'm sure this is just the beginning. I've suspected for some time that the Walker forces have bitten off more than they can chew here. Only time will tell, but at this point, unfortunately, my suspicions have not been assuaged.

[osan]

The FED is going to abolish itself very soon. And I hope it takes all the leeching wall street banks and corporations with it.

Be careful about that - you had better be damned certain in your mind that when the Fed goes the way of the dodo it will be replaced with something else, at least as bad and more than likely significantly worse. If you think these people who have invested generations and phenomena effort into cultivating this infrastructure of power are going to simply throw up their hands and go away, you are fooling yourself most dangerously. I hold no doubt that whatever it is that replaces the Fed will far and away more powerful. These people may be wicked, but they are not stupid.

[FrankRep]

I thought he said he was going to do it anyways regardless if the bill passed or not.

Wisconsin Gov. Warns 12,000 State Workers Could be Fired Without Budget Deal (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/20/12g-state-workers-fired-budget-deal-wisconsin-governor-warns/)


Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/20/12g-state-workers-fired-budget-deal-wisconsin-governor-warns/), All Voices (http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/8247529-wisconsin-governor-warns-12000-state-workers-could-be-fired)
February 20, 2011

If changes aren't made to the benefit contributions paid by Wisconsin's nearly 300,000 public sector employees, about 10,000-12,000 workers will lose their jobs, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker warned Sunday.

[specsaregood]

//

[madfoot]

"Wisconsin Senate PASSES Gov. Walker's Budget Repair Bill"

Do you mean he took out the part that had anything to do with the budget and passed the part that cripples the public sector unions?

What a mess. This isn't libertarian at all, guys.

[FrankRep]

What a mess. This isn't libertarian at all, guys.

Yes it is. :rolleyes:

[madfoot]

The government has not told them they cannot collectively bargain, they simply said that as an employer they will not hire or employ people who engage in collective bargaining, moreover all they have said is that they will not entertain or allow collective bargaining to determine certain aspects of their employment.

So in other words they cannot collectively bargain.

Really guys? Really?

[madfoot]

Yes it is. :rolleyes:

When did libertarianism become a form crony capitalism?

[silverhandorder]

"Wisconsin Senate PASSES Gov. Walker's Budget Repair Bill"

Do you mean he took out the part that had anything to do with the budget and passed the part that cripples the public sector unions?

What a mess. This isn't libertarian at all, guys.
Neither is continuing to give unions special privileges. Troll somewhere else.

[TCE]

So in other words they cannot collectively bargain.

Really guys? Really?

In real terms, they never could anyway. If they wanted to truly Collectively Bargain, the taxpayers of Wisconsin would all have to vote on their terms and all of their requests for increases would likely never be agreed upon. Just look at California. Any increase in taxes is always voted down via referendum. They should be thankful they got away with blackmailing the state for so long.

[specsaregood]

When did libertarianism become a form crony capitalism?

What does this have to do with capitalism? This is about public servant unions.

[Trigonx]

"Wisconsin Senate PASSES Gov. Walker's Budget Repair Bill"

Do you mean he took out the part that had anything to do with the budget and passed the part that cripples the public sector unions?

What a mess. This isn't libertarian at all, guys.

I think you forgot to add the part where it will allow people to be employed by the state and not be forced to pay union dues.

Sounds like freedom of choice to me.

[FrankRep]

What a mess. This isn't libertarian at all, guys.

When did libertarianism become a form crony capitalism?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LdBMujUWqAI/TWaqckdDFmI/AAAAAAAAG0s/6Jagt2MREI8/s1600/110224beelertoon_c20110224125055%2BBig%2BUnion.jpg

[osan]

"Wisconsin Senate PASSES Gov. Walker's Budget Repair Bill"

Do you mean he took out the part that had anything to do with the budget and passed the part that cripples the public sector unions?

What a mess. This isn't libertarian at all, guys.

It isn't? How do you figure?

[madfoot]

Neither is continuing to give unions special privileges. Troll somewhere else.

Just because I don't toe the party line on every issue doesn't make me a troll. It doesn't make me a "statist" or a "progressive," either.


I think you forgot to add the part where it will allow people to be employed by the state and not be forced to pay union dues.

Sounds like freedom of choice to me.

Because those unions won't exist anymore.

[FrankRep]

It isn't? How do you figure?

Madfoot has a thread for his Pro-Government Union views.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?282421-Why-aren-t-we-on-the-side-of-the-union-protesters

[madfoot]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LdBMujUWqAI/TWaqckdDFmI/AAAAAAAAG0s/6Jagt2MREI8/s1600/110224beelertoon_c20110224125055%2BBig%2BUnion.jpg

The taxpayers seem to be on the side of the protesters.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-22-poll-public-unions-wisconsin_N.htm

[specsaregood]

Because those unions won't exist anymore.

If they fail as the result of people not being forced to join them or having their money stolen from them to go to the union; then the union is clearly not providing a service worth keeping them around.

[madfoot]

It isn't? How do you figure?

It has nothing to do with cutting the budget whatsoever. If it did, he would have negotiated with the Democratic senators and agreed to budget cuts without killing the unions. This is about the GOP declaring war on our schools.

[TCE]

The taxpayers seem to be on the side of the protesters.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-22-poll-public-unions-wisconsin_N.htm

As we've discussed many, many times, Public Opinion is worthless. 81% of people want foreign aid cut, but that won't happen. 75% want a real audit of the Federal Reserve and that won't happen. The only opinions worth anything are of our wise overlords the elected politicians.

[specsaregood]

This is about the GOP declaring war on our schools.
hahahahaha

[jth_ttu]

I don't get why you are torn? The government has not told them they cannot collectively bargain, they simply said that as an employer they will not hire or employ people who engage in collective bargaining, moreover all they have said is that they will not entertain or allow collective bargaining to determine certain aspects of their employment.. As an employer WI can make any terms it wants, and as a laborer or employee workers may or may not accept those terms and find employment elsewhere.

You do not have the right to force your will on others, employers offer pay and benefits to attract workers, workers offer services in return, both sides must agree to the exchange. Yet here you argue that the workers have the right to force terms on the employer, would you also support the reverse where employees were forced to labor(meaning they cannot quit) under certain terms that were forced upon them?

It is an exchange, WI offers money which represents the entire spectrum of goods and services in exchange for the services the workers will provide. You cannot use force on either side of the equation in the free market.

I never said workers had the right to a job or to force their terms on anyone, don't put words in my mouth. All I said was workers had the right to collectively bargain. I think people should only hire or work on terms they agree to. I'm pretty sure this new law makes it illegal for public employees to collectively bargain which means they can be arrested for it. If all the bill said was that the state would not hire employees engaged in collective bargaining I wouldn't think twice about it. I haven't seen the bill so I'm just going on whats being said. Anybody got a link to the bill?

[TCE]

It has nothing to do with cutting the budget whatsoever. If it did, he would have negotiated with the Democratic senators and agreed to budget cuts without killing the unions. This is about the GOP declaring war on our schools.

Because public schools are a masterful art of efficiency? We're getting a return on our investment? Kids are dumber than they have ever been and that should be obvious. Privatize the schools and unions can collectively bargain all they want in the private sector.

[FrankRep]

It has nothing to do with cutting the budget whatsoever. If it did, he would have negotiated with the Democratic senators and agreed to budget cuts without killing the unions. This is about the GOP declaring war on our schools.

It's hard to negotiate with the Democratic Senators when they runaway to a different state.

Everything else you posted is straight up propaganda. No one declaring "war" on the schools. That is retarded.

[madfoot]

If they fail as the result of people not being forced to join them or having their money stolen from them to go to the union; then the union is clearly not providing a service worth keeping them around.

It's weird how some people don't mind breaking contractual agreements when it hurts the working class. If this was about a minimum wage or regulatory standards, we'd be up in arms, but take away their right to unionize and suddenly things are different?

[TCE]

It's weird how some people don't mind breaking contractual agreements when it hurts the working class. If this was about a minimum wage or regulatory standards, we'd be up in arms, but take away their right to unionize and suddenly things are different?

Uh...virtually all of us are against regulations and the minimum wage...

[noxagol]

Cutting government spending helps far more working class people than it hurts. FAR FAR more.

[specsaregood]

It's weird how some people don't mind breaking contractual agreements when it hurts the working class. If this was about a minimum wage or regulatory standards, we'd be up in arms, but take away their right to unionize and suddenly things are different?

New administration, new bosses, new contracts.

[madfoot]

Because public schools are a masterful art of efficiency? We're getting a return on our investment? Kids are dumber than they have ever been and that should be obvious. Privatize the schools and unions can collectively bargain all they want in the private sector.

Privatizing the schools is a completely nonsensical ideological solution that sidesteps actually defining the problems and tackling them. Yeah, our schools suck and aren't getting any better. Reform them, don't implode them.


It's hard to negotiate with the Democratic Senators when they runaway to a different state.

They were saying over and over again, we'll come back, we'll take pay cuts, just take collective bargaining off the table. Are you disputing that?


As we've discussed many, many times, Public Opinion is worthless.

Then bitch at FrankRep for bring it up. He made it about public opinion, not me.

[FrankRep]

It's weird how some people don't mind breaking contractual agreements when it hurts the working class. If this was about a minimum wage or regulatory standards, we'd be up in arms, but take away their right to unionize and suddenly things are different?

I don't support Minimum Wage, sorry.


Minimum Wage, Maximum Folly (http://www.lewrockwell.com/williams-w/w-williams60.1.html)

Water Williams
November 30, 2010


Walter Williams: Good Intentions - Minimum Wage, Licensing, and Labor Laws


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DS0XXFdyfI

[madfoot]

Cutting government spending

Which this bill doesn't do.


Uh...virtually all of us are against regulations and the minimum wage...

That was my point. Most of you would be against a law that broke existing contracts to institute a minimum wage. But you don't have any problem with breaking contracts to cut off union funding. The only difference I can see is one form of intervention benefits the elites, the others benefit the working class.

[madfoot]

I don't support Minimum Wage, worry.

Whooosh.

[madfoot]

Ugh, I'm not surprised I'm getting negative rep'd for this. You can't disagree with anything on this damn forum without being a statist apparently.

[angelatc]

It's weird how some people don't mind breaking contractual agreements when it hurts the working class. If this was about a minimum wage or regulatory standards, we'd be up in arms, but take away their right to unionize and suddenly things are different?



He didn't take away the right to unionize. He took away their ability to use union money to buy pay raises from politicians. If they want anything over a COLA, the issue goes to the people who actually have to pay it - the voters.

[FrankRep]

Whooosh.

Minimum Wage = Government Controls

[FrankRep]

Ugh, I'm not surprised I'm getting negative rep'd for this. You can't disagree with anything on this damn forum without being a statist apparently.
Ron Paul supporters tend to reject Socialism and big government.

[madfoot]

Minimum Wage = Government Controls

Still whooosh.

[TCE]

Ugh, I'm not surprised I'm getting negative rep'd for this. You can't disagree with anything on this damn forum without being a statist apparently.

No, it's your arguments and manner, not your views. ZippyJuan has been disagreeing with everything we've said for years and he's one of the most likable members on this board.

[madfoot]

Ron Paul supporters tend to reject Socialism and big government.

No True Scotsman? For shame.

[madfoot]

No, it's your arguments and manner, not your views. ZippyJuan has been disagreeing with everything we've said for years and he's one of the most likable members on this board.

I didn't have years to make you guys like me. It's bad timing apparently that I joined at the same time was the Wisconsin thing. Not being ideologically pure doesn't make me a troll however.

[AuH20]

It's weird how some people don't mind breaking contractual agreements when it hurts the working class. If this was about a minimum wage or regulatory standards, we'd be up in arms, but take away their right to unionize and suddenly things are different?

The real problem is that these contracts are negotiated between a third party extremely partial to the union interests and the unions. It's largely a farce. Now it's time to close the loophole. The party is over.

[madfoot]

The real problem is that these contracts are negotiated between a third party extremely partial to the union interests and the unions. It's largely a farce. Now it's time to close the loophole. The party is over.

That third party being...?

[AuH20]

That third party being...?

Union owned politicians looking to pass the buck to the taxpayer. The shapeless, voiceless taxpayer is usually the dumping ground for these schemes.

[madfoot]

I wouldn't say politicians are generally "union owned". I think guys like Walker are proof that they're anything but.

[FrankRep]

http://www.thenewamerican.com/images/stories2011/00columnists/sowell.001.jpg



The biggest myth about labor unions is that unions are for the workers — unions are for unions, just as corporations are for corporations and politicians are for politicians.


Union Myths (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/opinion/thomas-sowell/6605--union-myths)


Thomas Sowell | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
08 March 2011


The biggest myth about labor unions is that unions are for the workers. Unions are for unions, just as corporations are for corporations and politicians are for politicians.

Nothing shows the utter cynicism of the unions and the politicians who do their bidding like the so-called "Employee Free Choice Act" that the Obama administration tried to push through Congress. Employees' free choice as to whether or not to join a union is precisely what that legislation would destroy.

Workers already have a free choice in secret-ballot elections conducted under existing laws. As more and more workers in the private sector have voted to reject having a union represent them, the unions' answer has been to take away secret-ballot elections.

Under the "Employee Free Choice Act," unions would not have to win in secret-ballot elections in order to represent the workers. Instead, union representatives could simply collect signatures from the workers until they had a majority.

Why do we have secret ballots in the first place, whether in elections for unions or elections for government officials? To prevent intimidation and allow people to vote how they want to, without fear of retaliation.

This is a crucial right that unions want to take away from workers. The actions of union mobs in Wisconsin, Ohio, and elsewhere give us a free home demonstration of how little they respect the rights of those who disagree with them and how much they rely on harassment and threats to get what they want.

It takes world-class chutzpah to call circumventing secret ballots the "Employee Free Choice Act." To unions, workers are just the raw material used to create union power, just as iron ore is the raw material used by U.S. Steel and bauxite is the raw material used by the Aluminum Company of America.

The most fundamental fact about labor unions is that they do not create any wealth. They are one of a growing number of institutions which specialize in siphoning off wealth created by others, whether those others are businesses or the taxpayers.

There are limits to how long unions can siphon off money from businesses, without facing serious economic repercussions.

The most famous labor union leader, the legendary John L. Lewis, head of the United Mine Workers from 1920 to 1960, secured rising wages and job benefits for the coal miners, far beyond what they could have gotten out of a free market based on supply and demand.

But there is no free lunch.

An economist at the University of Chicago called John L. Lewis "the world's greatest oil salesman."

His strikes that interrupted the supply of coal, as well as the resulting wage increases that raised its price, caused many individuals and businesses to switch from using coal to using oil, leading to reduced employment of coal miners. The higher wage rates also led coal companies to replace many miners with machines.

The net result was a huge decline in employment in the coal mining industry, leaving many mining towns virtually ghost towns by the 1960s. There is no free lunch.

Similar things happened in the unionized steel industry and in the unionized automobile industry. At one time, U.S. Steel was the largest steel producer in the world and General Motors the largest automobile manufacturer. No more. Their unions were riding high in their heyday, but they too discovered that there is no free lunch, as their members lost jobs by the hundreds of thousands.

Workers have also learned that there is no free lunch, which is why they have, over the years, increasingly voted against being represented by unions in secret ballot elections.

One set of workers, however, remained largely immune to such repercussions. These are government workers represented by public sector unions.

While oil could replace coal, while U.S. Steel dropped from number one in the world to number ten, and Toyota could replace General Motors as the world's leading producer of cars, government is a monopoly. Nobody is likely to replace the federal or state bureaucracies, no matter how much money the unions drain from the taxpayers.

That is why government unions continue to thrive while private sector unions decline. Taxpayers provide their free lunch.


SOURCE:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/opinion/thomas-sowell/6605--union-myths

[Cowlesy]

It has nothing to do with cutting the budget whatsoever. If it did, he would have negotiated with the Democratic senators and agreed to budget cuts without killing the unions. This is about the GOP declaring war on our schools.

Seriously, gtfo, what are you smoking son?

[Inkblots]

The plain fact of the matter is that all public employees' pay and compensation comes out of taxation - that is, using the the coercive force of government to expropriate money from private citizens. In light of this, it is absolutely right and fair that public employees should accept as part of their terms of employment certain restrictions upon themselves to prevent abuse of this power. This is why I favor the banning of public sector unions, and prohibiting public employees from organizing by force of law - if they use the coercive force of government to be paid, they must accept some coercive restrictions in turn.

If, on the other hand, they want to join the productive economy by working in the private sector, no one will defend their right to organize more strongly than myself. Private employees should have the ability to form and join unions, and work for whatever employers will accept their terms. Only those whose payment is compulsory, rather than voluntary, should be stopped from unionizing.

[madfoot]

Because I apparently haven't made myself very clear in the past few weeks, I'll clarify my position before I get off the computer. I'm not a fan of Big Union. I think they're lazy, inefficient, and corrupt. But I'm not against the very concept of unions themselves, and that includes public unions. I don't think, just because they're employees of the state, they should necessarily sacrifice the right to unionize. Public employees aren't statists.

If Walker was rational about this whole thing, and discussed reform rather than dismantlement, I'd be on his side with this thing. But his solution was like bring a gun to a knife fight; it was clearly not about budget, but about ideology. I don't respect that.

[madfoot]

The plain fact of the matter is that all public employees pay and compensation comes out of taxation - that is, using the the coercive force of government to expropriate money from private citizens. In light of this, it is absolutely right and fair that public employees should accept as part of their terms of employment certain restrictions upon themselves to prevent abuse of this power. This is why I favor the banning of public sector unions, and prohibiting public employees from organizing by force of law - if they use the coercive force of government to be paid, they must accept some coercive restrictions in turn.

If, on the other hand, they want to join the productive economy by working in the private sector, no one will defend their right to organize more strongly than myself. Private employees should have the ability to form and join unions, and work for whatever employers will accept their terms. Only those whose payment is compulsory, rather than voluntary, should be stopped from unionizing.

It sounds like you just don't like public employees, period. Which I sympathize from an ideological POV - taxation is bad, statism is wrong, etc. - but I don't think the ideological solution is always the best one.

[Inkblots]

It sounds like you just don't like public employees, period. Which I sympathize from an ideological POV - taxation is bad, statism is wrong, etc. - but I don't think the ideological solution is always the best one.

I note that you failed to respond to my point. If public employees collect their pay using the coercive force of law, how is it unjust that the coercive force of law should also regulate the terms of their employment?

If they elect to forgo coercion by working in the private sector, I will equally fight to stop the force of law being used to regulate their employment.

[silverhandorder]

madfoot here is a tip don't pretend or make people guess your positions. When you say things like not very libertarian like without backing it up concretely it pisses people off. It is quite clearly trolling.

Look I have no problem with lefties arguing here or even just people from the left that support Ron Paul. Just realize people will not agree with you on economic issues. Don't try to claim they are un-libertarian when to the contrary that is the libertarian position. If you are really honest work on building bridges where we agree such as civil liberties and war. On other issues be a bit more honest and try to observe forum etiquette.

[Ninja Homer]

Because I apparently haven't made myself very clear in the past few weeks, I'll clarify my position before I get off the computer. I'm not a fan of Big Union. I think they're lazy, inefficient, and corrupt. But I'm not against the very concept of unions themselves, and that includes public unions. I don't think, just because they're employees of the state, they should necessarily sacrifice the right to unionize. Public employees aren't statists.

Do yourself a favor and read this: http://mises.org/daily/5072/The-Political-Economy-of-Government-Employee-Unions

People on this forum generally make arguments based on sound logic and historical evidence. It seems to me that you're making arguments based on opinion and emotion. It isn't a fair fight.

[angelatc]

I wish the right wing was as reactionary as the left.

Remember how we all ran to DC and took over the Capitol when they shoved Obamacare down our throats? Me either.

[dealerjim]

....

[dealerjim]

I wish the right wing was as reactionary as the left.

Remember how we all ran to DC and took over the Capitol when they shoved Obamacare down our throats? Me either.
Unlike most of these liberal protesters, we actually have jobs to do and families to take care of. After all, somebody has to pay taxes so those protesters can get a check each week.

[devil21]

Seems they are not reacting well

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/hundreds-protesters-rush-wisconsin-capitol-vastly-outnumbering-security

[Jack Bauer]

The six-figure proletariat will rise again! Walker has been warned!

[Lucille]

Seems they are not reacting well

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/hundreds-protesters-rush-wisconsin-capitol-vastly-outnumbering-security

Misean (http://www.zerohedge.com/article/hundreds-protesters-rush-wisconsin-capitol-vastly-outnumbering-security#comment-1035114) wins the thread!

"It's hilarious to watch religious zealots attacking their holy shrines!"

[amy31416]

Unlike most of these liberal protesters, we actually have jobs to do and families to take care of. After all, somebody has to pay taxes so those protesters can get a check each week.

Weird. The liberals say the same exact thing about the tea party folks. Practically word for word...they're just referring to SS checks instead of public worker's checks.