Tell farmers on protectyourtexasborder that it’s drug-WAR violence

[idirtify]

There’s a new website for the defense of farmers along the Texas border with Mexico who are suffering from drug-war violence.

http://www.protectyourtexasborder.com/

The site also has a discussion forum.

http://protectyourtexasborder.myfastforum.org/forum1.php

Although the site owner’s POV seems to be all about imploring the Federal government to “do something soon” and “provide the necessary tools to end the border war”, we should go to their forum and flood it with posts that explain the root of the problem: that it’s “drug-WAR violence” which will not end until the drug WAR ends. Although at this point the brand new forum seems to be heavily moderated and I suspect all such posts attacking drug prohibition are getting censored, but it’s really too new to tell.

[Pericles]

While you are correct about the root cause of the violence, I think your suggestion is too much like walking up to one of the wounded at Virginia Tech and telling him that if you had campus carry, you wouldn't be laying on the floor bleeding out right now.

[Bern]

Short term - it's the Fed's responsibilty to protect the border and if they insist on the stupid drug war policy, they better protect the folks who are collateral damage.

Long term - end the stupid drug war and fix the root cause of the problem.

[FrankRep]

-> The Farmers, Americans need to protect themselves NOW.

-> Drug Laws will take a long time, maybe YEARS, to change.


Libertarians need to understand these facts.

[idirtify]

While you are correct about the root cause of the violence, I think your suggestion is too much like walking up to one of the wounded at Virginia Tech and telling him that if you had campus carry, you wouldn't be laying on the floor bleeding out right now.

While I see your point, it’s a lot different. Let me improve your analogy. If there was a website & forum for students who are worried about another shooting on campus, why would it not be prudent to get on the forum and tell them that the main solution is to end campus gun prohibition? I mean what are you implying, that the better solution is to build walls around campuses and have huge police forces inside and out?

[idirtify]

Short term - it's the Fed's responsibilty to protect the border and if they insist on the stupid drug war policy, they better protect the folks who are collateral damage.

Long term - end the stupid drug war and fix the root cause of the problem.

Right, but the problem with the former is that we know said protection is impossible (since the corrupt drug police are often the ones to worry about).

[idirtify]

-> The Farmers, Americans need to protect themselves NOW.

-> Drug Laws will take a long time, maybe YEARS, to change.


Libertarians need to understand these facts.

Sounds like you have it backwards. Protection without legalization would require: massive border-fence construction, a huge increase in police forces and Federal agencies and agents, all the corruption that goes along with it, constant battling with ever growing and ever richer drug traders, ad infinitum. But legalization would require only one thing: a change in legislation.

I think what you meant to say was that libertarians need to understand that people who makes excuses for not repealing drug prohibition are the reason drug prohibition is taking a long time to repeal.

[FrankRep]

Right, but the problem with the former is that we know said protection is impossible (since the corrupt drug police are often the ones to worry about).

Arizona has the right idea. Texas needs to follow Arizona's lead.

[dannno]

While you are correct about the root cause of the violence, I think your suggestion is too much like walking up to one of the wounded at Virginia Tech and telling him that if you had campus carry, you wouldn't be laying on the floor bleeding out right now.

Bullshit, it's more like taking a time machine back and going up to a shooting victim/student at VA Tech before the shooting happened and telling them to get the fuck out of there!!

The truth will set you free, not a bunch of lies and guns.

[dannno]

-> The Farmers, Americans need to protect themselves NOW.

-> Drug Laws will take a long time, maybe YEARS, to change.


Libertarians need to understand these facts.

It doesn't have to take years to end the drug war, where are you getting your facts?

[FrankRep]

It doesn't have to take years to end the drug war, where are you getting your facts?

I'm talking about Politically.

[eduardo89]

It doesn't have to take years to end the drug war, where are you getting your facts?

From the real world. Drug laws are not going to be changed anytime soon, that's thr reality of the matter.

[Southron]

What good is government that won't protect private property?

The problem may be drugs but that is not the ranchers/farmers fault and no excuse not to protect their property.

[acptulsa]

From the real world. Drug laws are not going to be changed anytime soon, that's thr reality of the matter.

Yeah, yeah. And we could fix the economy overnight if only we cleared that cesspool out of Washington, thus creating millions of jobs in only a couple of months. But we won't because when unemployment is high is no time to cut patronage jobs.

I don't think the American public will continue to believe that the cure is always worse than the disease forever. In fact, I think they're getting very ready to be over the disease now.

[FrankRep]

Yeah, yeah. And we could fix the economy overnight if only we cleared that cesspool out of Washington, thus creating millions of jobs in only a couple of months. But we won't because when unemployment is high is no time to cut patronage jobs.

Great. You're gonna kick the cesspool out of Washington overnight?

SWEET! Go for it.

______


In reality, Drugs Laws will take YEARS to fix/repeal.

[acptulsa]

Great. You're gonna kick the cesspool out of Washington overnight?

SWEET! Go for it.

Happened in 1921. All we need is a Warren G. Harding.

[Pericles]

Happened in 1921. All we need is a Warren G. Harding.
Look at the speed with which the Soviet Union took a dive.

[dannno]

What good is government that won't protect private property?

The problem may be drugs but that is not the ranchers/farmers fault and no excuse not to protect their property.

Here is the problem.

Drugs have an EXTREMELY inflated profit margin. The harder they are to smuggle in, the more the prices go up and the more inflated the profit margin becomes and the more money the cartels make.

By fighting the drug war the old fashioned way, ultimately all you are doing is helping the cartels profit even more in the long-run. Then they will have even more weapons and become even more malicious and you will be fighting an even harder battle.

Nip it at the bud. Legalize it, and ALL this violence will immediately disappear.

[dannno]

Once you understand the true nature of the drug war, you understand that fighting that war actually has the opposite impact of creating an even worse problem.

That is why we are trying to educate people about this, and that is why we are skeptical of those advocating putting up an even harder fight.

[Bern]

There is a difference between advocating a "harder fight on the drug war" and advocating a "harder fight to secure our borders / property rights". As someone who looked at the possibility of buying land near the border in the recent past (it's dirt cheap and not just because it's desert) and decided against it because of the potential liabilities, I can see where the land owners are coming from.

[speciallyblend]

the drug war violence can directly be blamed on the US GOV and its direct prohibition which causes the very market of violence!! the violence is directly attributed to prohibition. the exact cause and effect of alcohol prohibition! end of story! want to end the crime and profit! END Prohibition bottom line!! anything else is bs!!

[speciallyblend]

From the real world. Drug laws are not going to be changed anytime soon, that's thr reality of the matter.

then reaLITY IS WE CALL OUT THE US GOV FOR PROMOTING VIOLENCE AND CREATING it by prohibition !! OOPS CAPS

[speciallyblend]

What good is government that won't protect private property?

The problem may be drugs but that is not the ranchers/farmers fault and no excuse not to protect their property.

why would they protect property?? when they(us gov) create the very laws that create the violence!! Drug Prohibition causes more harm to individuals(users or non-users) then any drug ever could!!

[dannno]

There is a difference between advocating a "harder fight on the drug war" and advocating a "harder fight to secure our borders / property rights".

No there isn't, it's the same thing.



As someone who looked at the possibility of buying land near the border in the recent past (it's dirt cheap and not just because it's desert) and decided against it because of the potential liabilities, I can see where the land owners are coming from.

Ya, I agree, it totally sucks for the land owners and I feel for them.. But if I owned land there, I would be primarily fighting to end the drug war. Asking them to come in and try to fight harder is just going to lead to a worse situation for myself and my property.

[idirtify]

Danno and speciallyblend, thanks for the support. Isn’t it disgusting when members here start making excuses for not directly advocating legalization, especially when one of those excuses is that it might take a long time! I mean what the hell is someone who thinks like that doing on a forum like this?? Well hopefully they are learning.

Hey Rifleman, FrankRep, eduardo89, and Pericles, learn this:
Individual liberty will possibly take a long time to happen, but that’s no reason to not directly advocate it or to not oppose tyranny. When your excuse for failing is that you think it will take a long time, you are only contributing to the delay.

[Pericles]

Discuss:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/mom_sheriff_flees_to_us_m1tWKw7BrI8qMUrqkHItTM#ixz z1Ff7R68YM

How close are any of you to the action?

[AFPVet]

The government wants real law enforcement (U.S. Border Patrol) and armed citizens to let Mexican drug thugs kill them. They give BP Agents freaking beanbag guns for petes sake—while the thugs have AK's. Worse than that, when BP Agents and citizens try to protect themselves, they get prison time or are sued.

[idirtify]

Discuss:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/mom_sheriff_flees_to_us_m1tWKw7BrI8qMUrqkHItTM#ixz z1Ff7R68YM

How close are any of you to the action?

I’m not close, but I know there’s violence. What’s your point?

[Pericles]

I’m not close, but I know there’s violence. What’s your point?

The people on the border dealing with this in their everyday lives want a solution that can be brought to bear with rapid results that enhance their safety and security, stopping incursions on their property that are destructive to agriculture and therefore their ability to make a living. Until they feel secure in their persons and possessions, an attempt to lead them to political action in the form of stop the War on Drugs is counterproductive. It just re-enforces the perception that libertarians are fiscal conservatives that like to smoke weed (i. e. not to be taken seriously). A good part of being able to lead people to where they need to go is the ability to understande them and provide a workable, viable solution that helps them now. How long have libertarians been working on repealing drug laws?

[AFPVet]

The answer given to us when asked about why we don't legalize drugs to end the violence was "...because then it would make it look like we lost."

[idirtify]

The people on the border dealing with this in their everyday lives want a solution that can be brought to bear with rapid results that enhance their safety and security, stopping incursions on their property that are destructive to agriculture and therefore their ability to make a living. Until they feel secure in their persons and possessions, an attempt to lead them to political action in the form of stop the War on Drugs is counterproductive. It just re-enforces the perception that libertarians are fiscal conservatives that like to smoke weed (i. e. not to be taken seriously). A good part of being able to lead people to where they need to go is the ability to understande them and provide a workable, viable solution that helps them now. How long have libertarians been working on repealing drug laws?

Let me get this straight. You don’t think legalization:
----------
is a solution that can be brought to bear with rapid results that will enhance the farmers’ safety and security, stop incursions on their property that are destructive to agriculture, and allow them to make a living while feeling secure in their persons and possessions?
----------
Yet you blame libertarians for the fact that legalization has not yet occurred. So in essence you discourage advocating legalization and base it on the fact that its advocates have not yet succeeded. Let me ask you: At what point, during its long delay, should everyone stop advocating individual liberty as a workable solution – and start blaming the delay on its advocates?

I never cease to be amazed at the wide variety of intellectual acrobatics employed to defend the continuation of drug prohibition.

[oyarde]

the drug war violence can directly be blamed on the US GOV and its direct prohibition which causes the very market of violence!! the violence is directly attributed to prohibition. the exact cause and effect of alcohol prohibition! end of story! want to end the crime and profit! END Prohibition bottom line!! anything else is bs!!

I tend to agree . I would love to see the murderous cartels put out of work. Cannot happen if the illegal market is there.

[Bern]

LA JOYA, Texas – As Texas farmhands prepared this winter to burn stalks of sugarcane for harvest along the Rio Grande, four masked men on ATVs suddenly surrounded the crew members and ordered them to leave.

Farmer Dale Murden has little doubt they were Mexican drug traffickers.

"They hide stuff in there," Murden said of the dense sugarcane crops, some as high as 14 feet. "It was very intimidating for my guys. You got men dressed in black, looking like thugs and telling them to get back."

Texas farmers and ranchers say confrontations like these are quietly adding up. This month the Texas Department of Agriculture, going beyond its usual purview that includes school lunches and regulating gas pumps, launched a website publicizing what it calls a worsening situation "threatening the lives of our fellow citizens and jeopardizing our nation's food supply."

However, some Texas Democratic lawmakers say the danger is being wildly overstated, and U.S. Border Patrol officials said they are not aware of landowners in the Rio Grande Valley facing increasing threats.

The launch last week of ProtectYourTexasBorder.com also left the state somewhat embarrassed after the site's message board quickly filled with postings calling for vigilante justice and the killing of illegal immigrants. The postings have since been removed.

Texas Agriculture Commissioner Todd Staples, a Republican in the job once held by Gov. Rick Perry, condemned those postings Thursday. But he said they shouldn't detract from the site's goal of getting more federal resources to the Texas border.

"The website demonstrates in undeniable form that greater federal government presence is needed. We need to keep this as a lookout post"," Staples said.

But Texas state Sen. Jose Rodriguez said the site is misleading, lacking any data that puts the incidents or danger in context.

"For the site to convey the impression that we are under a serious threat and that there's all this concern, including to the food supply, it's just total exaggeration of reality," Rodriguez said. "It's unacceptable."

Still, there is little doubt of increased unease on Texas border farms.

Most brazen among the reported confrontations occurred earlier this year on the sugarcane field near Rio Grande City. In February, a Hidalgo County employee was similarly threatened by three men along the border river to stop clearing brush near a canal, said Troy Allen, general manager of the Delta Lake Irrigation District.

Allen said another of his workers has taken to locking himself inside the water pump houses along the Rio Grande. If someone knocks, Allen said, he doesn't answer.

"Five years ago, if someone wanted a drink of water we'd give it to them," Allen said of illegal immigrants passing through. "We have a situation that's getting pretty serious in my opinion."

Last weekend, on a ranch adjacent to land owned by country music star George Strait, authorities said a ranch foreman was shot at by men inside a pickup truck who were found trespassing. The foreman returned fire, and no one was hurt.

Staples pointed out the bullet holes as proof of the escalating threat along the border. Webb County Sheriff's Department spokeswoman Maru De La Paz, however, said there was no evidence tying the shooting to suspected drug traffickers.

Several growers and ranchers say their jobs started becoming more dangerous about two years ago.

An Arizona rancher was gunned down in 2009 while checking water lines on his property, in what authorities suspect was a killing carried out by a scout for drug smugglers. No arrests have been made. Apart from that incident, Arizona agricultural leaders say they've heard of no direct threats toward their farmers and ranchers.

In Texas, the run-ins with traffickers are largely anecdotal. Border Patrol spokesman Mark Qualia said any confrontations would be investigated by local law enforcement, but added that landowners "haven't been expressing those feelings to us."

Staples said farmers are scared to speak out. Last week, a 2 1/2-hour meeting between Staples and about 20 farmers was closed to reporters over concern farmers wouldn't otherwise attend.

"I told (farmers) we have to tell this story so our policymakers understand the critical nature of what's being said," Staples said. "It is a process that we have to continue to tell it until we get the help we need."

The Rio Grande Valley is largely farmland, making it an almost necessary route for drug smugglers. The border fence built in the last few years doesn't run through all the farms, and even farmers with the fence worry about their safety while cultivating their crops between the fence and rivers.

Texas farmers for decades have lived — begrudgingly but unafraid — with illegal immigrants cutting through their land. But some farms say they have become more intrusive in recent years, presenting a greater threat.

One farmer, Joe Aguilar, told state officials he quit the business because of the escalating risk.

"After so many years it's upsetting, but either you move on, or it's dangerous for your family," Aguilar says in a video posted on the state's new website.

But in a 2009 interview with a local TV news station about hard times for farmers, Aguilar doesn't mention danger as why he quit. He told The Associated Press this month that financial factors also played a role in his decision to sell his land.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110311/ap_on_re_us/tx_texas_border_farms

Oh my.

[Pericles]

According to a poster on that board, it was more than that - there was such a call for immediate action that they wiped the entire board out and started over.

@ Mr. Strawman in the post two up - the "War on Drugs" is a failure, but surely you realize that it is not going to end tomorrow, next week, next month, and low odds of ending in the next year. That is a fact. The people on the border want their property and lives protected now. They are tired of waiting, and something is likely to happen about it soon, and legalization of drugs is not going to be it, and still there is the issue of people smuggling - and I'm aware there is a strand of libertarian that wants that to be legal, too.

At least can we agree that trespass of private property is against libertarian principles?

[LibForestPaul]

http://www.darkgovernment.com/news/another-mexican-drug-tunnel/
Recently federal agents in California uncovered the latest of 56 cross-border tunnels found in the Southwest since the government increased the number of border guards and added fencing, The New York Times reported Friday.