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View Full Version : I used to think that the Nov. 5th critics were reaching, but this is ridiculous




madcat033
10-23-2007, 07:30 PM
Okay, I used to think people were really reaching when they said we would get negative press because the 5th of november is related to v for vendetta, terrorism, et cetera. However, I thought that the V for Vendetta thing merely inspired the date. I didn't realize the extent to which it had been used...

Look at the beginning of this video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_9fip694A&eurl=http://www.thisnovember5th.com/

You have got to be fucking kidding me. "A desperate disease requires a dangerous remedy"?! With a bleeding V in the background?!

Is this really what we want Ron Paul to be associated with? The media WILL pick up on this, this will TURN OFF mainstream voters, it is STUPID. This screams "fringe" candidate, this does not look like it belongs to a mainstream candidate. Even the website has a dark theme with its tattered flags and smeared something all over it. And the picture of Ron Paul with his supporters looks more like a fucking cult or secret society than a legitimate rally. If not for that one sign on the left, I wouldn't have been able to tell that that was actually Ron Paul.

Do we want Ron Paul to seem like a terrorist? Do you think that will be popular with mainstream America and voters? NO. It won't be.

And say what you will about it being a stretch, or not a big deal, or whatever, but the thing that pisses me off is that THERE'S NO REASON FOR IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. It achieves NOTHING. It does not HELP the campaign at all, to include references to a shitty 1984 ripoff. So, to everyone who says it is not a big deal, can you actually JUSTIFY the v for vendetta references? Can you tell me how this actually help our campaign in ANY way at all? Can you tell me what we gain from this, to justify the risk of associating ourselves with terrorist actions?

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 07:31 PM
Okay, I used to think people were really reaching when they said we would get negative press because the 5th of november is related to v for vendetta, terrorism, et cetera. However, I thought that the V for Vendetta thing merely inspired the date. I didn't realize the extent to which it had been used...

Look at the beginning of this video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_9fip694A&eurl=http://www.thisnovember5th.com/

You have got to be fucking kidding me. "A desperate disease requires a dangerous remedy"?! With a bleeding V in the background?!

Is this really what we want Ron Paul to be associated with? The media WILL pick up on this, this will TURN OFF mainstream voters, it is STUPID. This screams "fringe" candidate, this does not look like it belongs to a mainstream candidate. Even the website has a dark theme with its tattered flags and smeared something all over it. And the picture of Ron Paul with his supporters looks more like a fucking cult or secret society than a legitimate rally. If not for that one sign on the left, I wouldn't have been able to tell that that was actually Ron Paul.

Do we want Ron Paul to seem like a terrorist? Do you think that will be popular with mainstream America and voters? NO. It won't be.

And say what you will about it being a stretch, or not a big deal, or whatever, but the thing that pisses me off is that THERE'S NO REASON FOR IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. It achieves NOTHING. It does not HELP the campaign at all, to include references to a shitty 1984 ripoff. So, to everyone who says it is not a big deal, can you actually JUSTIFY the v for vendetta references? Can you tell me how this actually help our campaign in ANY way at all? Can you tell me what we gain from this, to justify the risk of associating ourselves with terrorist actions?



I agree

However, I am still donating $100 on Nov 5

madcat033
10-23-2007, 07:32 PM
Oh, and for the record, I LOVE the idea. I think this is a great way to promote Ron Paul, by having a massive donation all on one day. We can gain a lot of publicity, and also encourage a lot of people to donate. I just really hate the v for vendetta shit.

KewlRonduderules
10-23-2007, 07:32 PM
Can someone move this?

brumans
10-23-2007, 07:32 PM
Not another thread like this...

seriously.. get over it.

silverhandorder
10-23-2007, 07:34 PM
Calm the hell down. It is a movie and people use it as a theme. Yes there might be blowback. But anyone who seen that movie would be intrsted and also many people have to be insane to connect the movie to RP's campaign.

TechnoGuyRob
10-23-2007, 07:35 PM
http://thisnovember11th.com

Brinck Slattery
10-23-2007, 07:36 PM
Madcat, we already tried to change the hearts and minds of the Ron Paul Forums. Instead of flowers, we were met with the slings and arrows of righteous indignation.

Haha I'm so glad that I've learned to stop worrying and love the V.

not really.

KewlRonduderules
10-23-2007, 07:36 PM
Yes, we know, we know, we know.

It's been drilled into us.

Let's move on with the campaign.

argounova
10-23-2007, 07:36 PM
then help us promote the money bomb on the 11th instead, a nice not-spinnable date.

Drknows
10-23-2007, 07:37 PM
Hey i didnt like the movie either but im still donating.

The theme looks like a Halloween type deal.

I like the 11th idea too! http://thisnovember11th.com

madcat033
10-23-2007, 07:38 PM
Not another thread like this...

seriously.. get over it.


Get over it? Why? We are unnecessarily harming (or risking to harm) the campaign.

And to this day, I have not heard ONE justification for the v for vendetta imagery. Why should I get over it when no one can even say what we stand to gain from this?

Why should I get over this NEEDLESS risk to our campaign? If there's no benefit, what's the point? Can anyone answer that?

Beerhall Agitator
10-23-2007, 07:38 PM
http://thisnovember11th.com

spiffy site

silverhandorder
10-23-2007, 07:38 PM
It is time to stop worrying about how they can spin the grassroots. If you would get your ass out on the streets and talk to people, you wouldn't have to worry about this. Use forums to organize not to quarrel.

NinjaPirate
10-23-2007, 07:39 PM
The neo-cons are a disease. :p

I don't favor that vid too much, either.

pcosmar
10-23-2007, 07:39 PM
I loved the movie. I love the concept.

If YOU don't like it, Then IGNORE it.

brumans
10-23-2007, 07:39 PM
V for Vendetta is an amazing movie in my opinion.. definitely in my top 3. It has a very powerful message.

I do agree that the V for Vendetta videos should be taken down from the main site, though. Just to be sure.

We have a thread about this every damn day... if you feel the need to bring something up, SEARCH.. don't make another thread.

This forum can do much more in peace than it can ever do in these needless, unconstitutional, undeclared threads.

madcat033
10-23-2007, 07:43 PM
It is time to stop worrying about how they can spin the grassroots. If you would get your ass out on the streets and talk to people, you wouldn't have to worry about this. Use forums to organize not to quarrel.

spin? I don't think a bleeding V that suggest dangerous remedies requires very much fucking spin.

Sematary
10-23-2007, 07:44 PM
Okay, I used to think people were really reaching when they said we would get negative press because the 5th of november is related to v for vendetta, terrorism, et cetera. However, I thought that the V for Vendetta thing merely inspired the date. I didn't realize the extent to which it had been used...

Look at the beginning of this video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_9fip694A&eurl=http://www.thisnovember5th.com/

You have got to be fucking kidding me. "A desperate disease requires a dangerous remedy"?! With a bleeding V in the background?!

Is this really what we want Ron Paul to be associated with? The media WILL pick up on this, this will TURN OFF mainstream voters, it is STUPID. This screams "fringe" candidate, this does not look like it belongs to a mainstream candidate. Even the website has a dark theme with its tattered flags and smeared something all over it. And the picture of Ron Paul with his supporters looks more like a fucking cult or secret society than a legitimate rally. If not for that one sign on the left, I wouldn't have been able to tell that that was actually Ron Paul.

Do we want Ron Paul to seem like a terrorist? Do you think that will be popular with mainstream America and voters? NO. It won't be.

And say what you will about it being a stretch, or not a big deal, or whatever, but the thing that pisses me off is that THERE'S NO REASON FOR IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. It achieves NOTHING. It does not HELP the campaign at all, to include references to a shitty 1984 ripoff. So, to everyone who says it is not a big deal, can you actually JUSTIFY the v for vendetta references? Can you tell me how this actually help our campaign in ANY way at all? Can you tell me what we gain from this, to justify the risk of associating ourselves with terrorist actions?

People worry too much. ALL publicity is GOOD publicity.

paulitics
10-23-2007, 07:44 PM
Calm the hell down. It is a movie and people use it as a theme. Yes there might be blowback. But anyone who seen that movie would be intrsted and also many people have to be insane to connect the movie to RP's campaign.

Why would you have to be insane to connect the movie to RP's campaign if in fact that is what the theme is predominantly about? It looks like to me that is what the intended goal is with the website and videos.

paulitics
10-23-2007, 07:46 PM
People worry too much. ALL publicity is GOOD publicity.

That is not true in a poilitical campaign. Here are some recent examples. Dean scream, Pat Buchanan - white supremecy, Lama alexander - Flannel shirts. And even John Edward with his 1000 dollar haircut.

madcat033
10-23-2007, 07:47 PM
People worry too much. ALL publicity is GOOD publicity.



That's not the point though. The point is, we don't gain anything from it! So why would we even incorporate V for Vendetta in the first place?

So far, no one has been able to answer this. And if there's we don't gain anything from it, it's definitely not worth risking negative publicity.

WhiteWhaleHolyGrail
10-23-2007, 07:48 PM
I signed up to donate - even though I thought the movie was a worthless pretentious piece of garbage and Guy Fawkes was an arrogant jerk.

Maybe I'm wrong but there's no way I'm watching that crap movie again.

Just donate because c'mon - everybody else is doing it!

Brinck Slattery
10-23-2007, 07:48 PM
WhiteWhaleHolyGrail has a badass screen name. Perhaps we could have a fundraiser called "Slaying Leviathan!"

paulitics
10-23-2007, 07:49 PM
All publicity is good publicity is not true. It is good for celebrities perhaps who thrive on ratings. It can effectively end a campaign overnight. There are so many examples in recent history.

silverhandorder
10-23-2007, 07:50 PM
Because this is done in the spirit of good fun. No one is saying we would march to the white house and over throw Bush right? Who ever would perceive this as bad and not vote for RP is lost for the time being. But guess what they will go out and try to search for RP to bring him down. And guess what they will only find his friendly sites on the first page. And anyone who already knows of RP will not be turned off.

The whole point you panic too much, Stop worrying of this. This is not as bad as it looks.

LibertyEagle
10-23-2007, 07:51 PM
That promotional video with the V dripping in blood and mentioning Guy Fawkes, does not appear to be the message we want to send. Is it?

Whatever happened to that great speech he gave (V) over the TV. Remember it? I thought it was very powerful. That's the part that reminds me somewhat of this campaign. Why aren't we using that for the promotional video instead?

CCTelander
10-23-2007, 07:53 PM
WhiteWhaleHolyGrail has a badass screen name. Perhaps we could have a fundraiser called "Slaying Leviathan!"

Then you'd have the same small but vocal group complaining about linking RP to killing by the use of the word "slaying."

Sematary
10-23-2007, 07:54 PM
That is not true in a poilitical campaign. Here are some recent examples. Dean scream, Pat Buchanan - white supremecy, Lama alexander - Flannel shirts. And even John Edward with his 1000 dollar haircut.

Except that this has absolutely no connection to the campaign is simply a date commemorating an event in Britain. This isn't the type of event that will do anything but help the campaign. Imagine - HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN A MATTER OF HOURS based on a yearning for freedom - how can you POSSIBLY find anything wrong with that.

WhiteWhaleHolyGrail
10-23-2007, 07:54 PM
WhiteWhaleHolyGrail has a badass screen name. Perhaps we could have a fundraiser called "Slaying Leviathan!"

Haha - love that fundraising idea. We need blood and thunder to win this election!

Drknows
10-23-2007, 07:55 PM
That promotional video with the V dripping in blood and mentioning Guy Fawkes, does not appear to be the message we want to send. Is it?

Whatever happened to that great speech he gave (V) over the TV. Remember it? I thought it was very powerful. That's the part that reminds me somewhat of this campaign. Why aren't we using that for the promotional video instead?
this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvksVqmmzHY

Sematary
10-23-2007, 07:55 PM
That's not the point though. The point is, we don't gain anything from it! So why would we even incorporate V for Vendetta in the first place?

So far, no one has been able to answer this. And if there's we don't gain anything from it, it's definitely not worth risking negative publicity.

The "publicity" is probably bringing in new donors - Anyone who understand history and wishes for freedom will "get it". Why not figure out ways to help the campaign rather than worrying about the impact of ten thousand or more people doing a money bomb?

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 07:55 PM
This forum can do much more in peace than it can ever do in these needless, unconstitutional, undeclared threads.


LoL

DrNoZone
10-23-2007, 07:56 PM
This debate will NEVER end. All I have to say is: BAD IDEA...and I'll say it again, and again. The original poster on this thread has a VERY valid point. We could associate this date and fundraising push with any damn thing we wanted to, why pick this?

dircha
10-23-2007, 07:58 PM
This nation was founded on the blood of patriots, and today it bleeds again, writhing in the death throes of a dangerous and desperate infection.

On November the 5th, the solidarity and donations of thousands of modern day patriots will strike a mortal blow against that parasite.

On November the 5th, THE DOCTOR IS IN THE HOUSE!

Remember,
Remember,
The 5th,
Of November.

http://www.thisnovember5th.com/

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 07:59 PM
One day the droves of detractors to either the movie, the fund raising idea, and the history behind the whole will have to learn that in a grassroots campaign, you have zero control over what anyone else does. The only you succeed at in continuing to bring this up is further enrage those supporting the fund raiser, regardless to your intent.

For the record, I'm starting to wonder if all the complaining about this circumstance will only further grow the effort, in which case, continue bitching. :)

werdd
10-23-2007, 08:00 PM
I agree, but its just motivation, weil be alright :)

DrNoZone
10-23-2007, 08:02 PM
One day the droves of detractors to either the movie, the fund raising idea, and the history behind the whole will have to learn that in a grassroots campaign, you have zero control over what anyone else does. The only you succeed at in continuing to bring this up is further enrage those supporting the fund raiser, regardless to your intent.


Yes, I think we detractors realize we cannot FORCE others to do things our way (we're not socialists), but we do realize that voicing our opinion may influence others to think twice about their actions.

DeadheadForPaul
10-23-2007, 08:02 PM
People worry too much. ALL publicity is GOOD publicity.

That is the most naive thing I have EVER heard

Was the publicity of Mondale riding around in the tank like a little child good for his campaign? No, it tanked it.

Was the publicity of the Dean scream an example of 'publicity is always good'?

Naive.

me3
10-23-2007, 08:02 PM
This debate will NEVER end. All I have to say is: BAD IDEA...and I'll say it again, and again. The original poster on this thread has a VERY valid point. We could associate this date and fundraising push with any damn thing we wanted to, why pick this?
The beauty of freedom is that you can associate it with anything you want.

And I recommend you do so.

I'll never understand people who rail against government dogma, and then construct their own scarecrows to keep them cowed and at home before curfew. Perhaps it is just the irrationality of mankind.

Or perhaps as Frank Herbert wrote, "Discontent is the science of man".

me3
10-23-2007, 08:03 PM
That is the most naive thing I have EVER heard

Was the publicity of Mondale riding around in the tank like a little child good for his campaign? No, it tanked it.

Was the publicity of the Dean scream an example of 'publicity is always good'?

Naive.
There is something ironic about a deadhead arguing for political correctness. Or is it just me? :D

DrNoZone
10-23-2007, 08:04 PM
The beauty of freedom is that you can associate it with anything you want.

And I recommend you do so.

I'll never understand people who rail against government dogma, and then construct their own scarecrows to keep them cowed and at home before curfew. Perhaps it is just the irrationality of mankind.

Or perhaps as Frank Herbert wrote, "Discontent is the science of man".

Man, people write off honest, wise and well thought out concerns in the weirdest of ways.

madcat033
10-23-2007, 08:05 PM
A whole lot of people bitching at me for bringing this up...

yet no one can tell me what we stand to gain from this.

constituent
10-23-2007, 08:05 PM
huh.

DeadheadForPaul
10-23-2007, 08:07 PM
There is something ironic about a deadhead arguing for political correctness. Or is it just me? :D


I'm not arguing for political correctness. I'm explaining the principle of blowback - unintended consequences

LibertyEagle
10-23-2007, 08:08 PM
this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvksVqmmzHY

Yeah. That one. :)

DrNoZone
10-23-2007, 08:09 PM
I'm not arguing for political correctness. I'm explaining the principle of blowback - unintended consequences

Isn't it ironic Deadhead? You'd think Ron Paul supporters would be WELL versed on the principle of unintended consequences.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 08:09 PM
Was the publicity of Mondale riding around in the tank like a little child good for his campaign? No, it tanked it.

I think you mean Dukakis, Mondale was the guy who destroyed his campaign by promising to raise taxes.


A whole lot of people bitching at me for bringing this up...

yet no one can tell me what we stand to gain from this.

One thing that we will probably gain from this is a wider base of support from Catholic voters, many of whom are taught that Guy Fawkes was a patriot and that the King of England was a brutal thug. Most Catholics, despite what Giuliani would have you think, are not pro-war, but I have a feeling many of them are not flocking to Ron Paul for some strange reason, possibly because they haven't heard of him.

Thurston Howell III
10-23-2007, 08:12 PM
I dont' think I saw much donation promotion. Saw alot of V promotion. More like Ron Paul supporting some V movie.

Sorry, just how I see it.

RadioDJforPaul
10-23-2007, 08:13 PM
Heres my take as if anyone cares....

Yes, most of us get the movie. Most of us understand that we are trying to tie in this movie and its freedom aspects to Ron Paul.

But...

THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA IS NOT MOST OF US.

Whats easier for them to do? Take our side and explain the movie to the older viewers who have never seen this film and who vote religiously.

OR

Show clips of violence from the movie, show the dripping blood logo and talk about Ron Paul and his whacko supporters.


You know the MSM loves to stir up crap like this. If this happens you can forget about a Ron Paul presidency. Either remove the V refrences, or pick another day.

davidhperry
10-23-2007, 08:14 PM
That's not the point though. The point is, we don't gain anything from it! So why would we even incorporate V for Vendetta in the first place?

So far, no one has been able to answer this. And if there's we don't gain anything from it, it's definitely not worth risking negative publicity.

Yes, will someone please answer the question of what value "V for Vendetta" brings to the campaign? If you would, it would certainly silence the critics. That one answer would resolve the whole thing.

People will say: "we've got 8,000 people pledged so far!" How do we know that we wouldn't have more if the effort was oriented towards a wider audience?

madcat033
10-23-2007, 08:16 PM
Heres my take as if anyone cares....

Yes, most of us get the movie. Most of us understand that we are trying to tie in this movie and its freedom aspects to Ron Paul.

But...

THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA IS NOT MOST OF US.

Whats easier for them to do? Take our side and explain the movie to the older viewers who have never seen this film and who vote religiously.

OR

Show clips of violence from the movie, show the dripping blood logo and talk about Ron Paul and his whacko supporters.


You know the MSM loves to stir up crap like this. If this happens you can forget about a Ron Paul presidency. Either remove the V refrences, or pick another day.



Exactly! We have to think about MAINSTREAM voters. They will NOT be turned on by this kind of shit. This doesn't look presidential at all. It looks fringe. It looks conspiracy theorist. It looks second tier. Not even second tier. It looks fucking third tier. It looks like a tin foil hat nutjob tier.

What do we gain from this? Someone tell me! If no one can tell me what we possibly stand to gain, it should ALL be removed.

me3
10-23-2007, 08:17 PM
Isn't it ironic Deadhead? You'd think Ron Paul supporters would be WELL versed on the principle of unintended consequences.
Let's discuss the role of freedom, shall we?

People are free to associate the money bomb with whatever they want. As long as they are not hurting others (and there is ZERO proof they will), then what is the problem?

If you're going to argue that this is intervention, then all of our grassroots fund raising is intervention. If you don't want to participate, DONT. But continuing to harass and attack the event isn't going to stop the thousands signed up from participating. All it does is undermine it. So we'll end up with a half assed 11/5 money bomb.

I'm not afraid of the MSM, and neither should anyone else be. All that matters is fund raising and getting votes. We'll worry about the general election next year.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 08:17 PM
A whole lot of people bitching at me for bringing this up...

yet no one can tell me what we stand to gain from this.

Nothing.

Donate on the 5th anyways.

Perhaps it energized a thousand people to give money.

DrNoZone
10-23-2007, 08:18 PM
Exactly! We have to think about MAINSTREAM voters. They will NOT be turned on by this kind of shit. This doesn't look presidential at all. It looks fringe. It looks conspiracy theorist. It looks second tier. Not even second tier. It looks fucking third tier. It looks like a tin foil hat nutjob tier.

What do we gain from this? Someone tell me! If no one can tell me what we possibly stand to gain, it should ALL be removed.

I hate to say it, but you're just pissing into the wind; you'll never get your answer. It seems to me that the ego of the person running this, and its interest in being correct in this argument, will not allow a reasonable answer to your question. The truth is that the association with V brings ZERO value to this fundraising push, but they'll never admit that.

DrNoZone
10-23-2007, 08:20 PM
Let's discuss the role of freedom, shall we?

People are free to associate the money bomb with whatever they want. As long as they are not hurting others (and there is ZERO proof they will), then what is the problem?

If you're going to argue that this is intervention, then all of our grassroots fund raising is intervention. If you don't want to participate, DONT. But continuing to harass and attack the event isn't going to stop the thousands signed up from participating. All it does is undermine it. So we'll end up with a half assed 11/5 money bomb.

I'm not afraid of the MSM, and neither should anyone else be. All that matters is fund raising and getting votes. We'll worry about the general election next year.

Umm, I haven't attacked anyone. I'm certainly not talking to the 8k people who signed up. I am speaking DIRECTLY to the person responsible for this website and asking that they make a change to the theme, not that they cancel the idea altogether.

me3
10-23-2007, 08:20 PM
Again, what purpose does attempting to derail this accomplish?

Do you guys honestly think you are going to stop it? Because unless you think you can stop it, you're wasting time that could have been spent campaigning. And that is a tragedy.

Akus
10-23-2007, 08:21 PM
MADCAT003, i cannot disagree more, ron paul has alread a big support in racist and separatist groups. go to stormfront.org and read what kind of people these are. They support RP because he wants to end foreign aid to Israel. Media, were it really hell bent on digging up stuff on RP would already be all over this. It is, however, not.

So I believe that media won't care at all about this V for Vendetta knock off, because if they did, they'd already make a massive 60 minute reportage about how RP attracts white supremacists, satanists, UFO cultists etc.

I am not worried. :)

Corydoras
10-23-2007, 08:21 PM
Now exactly whose negative opinions are we worried about? Everybody in the press and blogosphere who has a beef with Ron Paul already dismisses him. Everybody in the press and blogosphere who gets what he's about knows that the grassroots does weird stuff like that lipstick lesbian video that would horrify Ron Paul personally, and the November 5th thing is just more weird stuff. The only opinions we can reasonably worry about are the people who are undecided. And they barely know he exists. I really think that it is not going to register in their minds at all.

I strongly doubt that most of America is aware of the Giuliani $9.11 party. At all. And we are just not big enough for the media to spend time on screaming about the V for Vendetta promotion. Harsh but true. The reason Oprah Winfrey got coverage for her Obama party was because she is a celebrity, not because of the amount of money she picked up for him.

If I were a typical idiot news editor, I'd just say, "Oh, those wacky Ron Paul people are at it again," and not even cover the story.

Fact is, financially, we are small potatoes compared to Giuliani and Obama. Sorry.

DrNoZone
10-23-2007, 08:21 PM
Again, what purpose does attempting to derail this accomplish?

Do you guys honestly think you are going to stop it? Because unless you think you can stop it, you're wasting time that could have been spent campaigning. And that is a tragedy.

It's the old "you should be out campaigning" non-argument.

me3
10-23-2007, 08:23 PM
Umm, I haven't attacked anyone. I'm certainly not talking to the 8k people who signed up. I am speaking DIRECTLY to the person responsible for this website and asking that they make a change to the theme, not that they cancel the idea altogether.
They might as well cancel it and let it fizzle out with all of the negativity people are pouring on it. The imagery has been up for some time now. Is taking it down going to accomplish anything?

You're not going to stop it, just sabotage it. And it will be the lousy V for Vendetta 11/5 fund raiser, instead of the $1 million day.

I've got better things to do. Networking for the campaign. Please continue chasing your tails.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 08:23 PM
It's the old "you should be out campaigning" non-argument.

Nope, it's the get off your ass and do something for the campaign argument actually.

saahmed
10-23-2007, 08:24 PM
I think there are some negatives to associating with V for Vendetta, but at the same time it was a story that called for change. The underlying theme was a revolution against the direction in which the government, and in some way that is exactly what this campaign is calling for. This Nov. 5th thing is associating with the call for change, not a violent revolution. That is why this is a donation drive, not a big violent protest.

In any case, I don't think it is the best idea, but it is still a good money bomb and it will appeal to younger people.

DrNoZone
10-23-2007, 08:25 PM
Nope, it's the get off your ass and do something for the campaign argument actually.

And that's the "I know for a fact what you are and are not doing, and have or have not done for the campaign...and you're a sinner!" non-argument.

Drknows
10-23-2007, 08:27 PM
Yes, will someone please answer the question of what value "V for Vendetta" brings to the campaign? If you would, it would certainly silence the critics. That one answer would resolve the whole thing.

Its just a marketing strategy developed by the 18-20 something crowd for the 18-20 something crowd. And its working .


I mean i guess they could've picked a different movie to associate with like ENTER THE DRAGON, THE ROAD WARRIOR, RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, DIE HARD or BRAVEHEART. but they probably were smoking some herb one day when that movie came out and thought damn this is one kick ass movie.

rs3515
10-23-2007, 08:28 PM
Exactly! We have to think about MAINSTREAM voters. They will NOT be turned on by this kind of shit. This doesn't look presidential at all. It looks fringe. It looks conspiracy theorist. It looks second tier. Not even second tier. It looks fucking third tier. It looks like a tin foil hat nutjob tier.

What do we gain from this? Someone tell me! If no one can tell me what we possibly stand to gain, it should ALL be removed.

Just to put it in a bit more stark terms ... the movie's demographic is 18-to-25 males. Of *all* age groups (male and female), who voted least in the 2004 Presidential Election? 18-to-25 males. Only 48% of them registered to vote, and 38% of them actually voted.

Who voted most in 2004? 45-to-74 year olds.
Which group compromises the largest current US demographic? 35-to-54 year olds.
After 65-and-older, which is the next smallest US demographic group? 18-to-25 year olds.

Courtesy of the Census Bureau.

Brinck Slattery
10-23-2007, 08:29 PM
yeah, interesting that those who have all the time in the world to post non-sequitors about why valid criticisms about the associations we are creating are stupid are able to simultaneously campaign on the street. They must all have iPhones like Ron Paul.

NinjaPirate
10-23-2007, 08:29 PM
Personally, I like this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCz-zpbhaGE

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 08:30 PM
And that's the "I know for a fact what you are and are not doing, and have or have not done for the campaign...and you're a sinner!" non-argument.

I'm sorry, I can't continue this discussion, I'm no match for the "Vomit out gibberish and make no sense argument". You win.

zebov
10-23-2007, 08:32 PM
I was in the same boat as a lot of the detractors at the beginning, but then I thought rationally about it and hopefully this will settle the detractors down:

1) The only way the mainstream media has any chance on reporting this is if the Official Ron Paul Campaign provides some sort of press release about it. Otherwise, nobody is going to pay any attention. If the official campaign thinks releasing the information has benefits that outweigh the risk, then they will release that information. Otherwise they won't. I think it will be the latter of the two, but whatever the case, the official campaign has complete control over whether or not MSM is even notified of the effects of this event.

2) Even if the MSM is notified of the massive one-day donations, they're not going to report it. If they do, they're not going to research it. If we've discovered anything about MSM, they aren't actually journalists most of the time. They take what is given to them and decide how to report it.

So, though I completely disagree with associating a fundraising campaign with V for Vendetta, I don't think Ron Paul is going to be hurt by it in the ways that we're concerned. The only way it is going to hurt is:

a) by the fact that they may decide NOT to report the information to MSM (which is a loss, but, hey, he still gets the money).

and

b) there's a good chance less money will be raise as could be from folks who aren't fond of the V association

These two negatives, though negatives, aren't nearly as bad as the bad press many are anticipating. Remember, nobody is going to talk about this in the MSM even if the Paul campaign does issue a press release; and if the Paul campaign feels a press release is "dangerous" they won't issue one and he'll simply get the money and keep on going.

Hope this helps.

dircha
10-23-2007, 08:32 PM
Personally, I like this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCz-zpbhaGE

This is pretty good. Another great addition.

Esor
10-23-2007, 08:35 PM
Who really cares though? Sure, it might get some negative press (and infact already has by some bloggers) but the point is irrelevant. This is a grassroots campaign and people need to understand that everything we do is not endorsed by Ron Paul. The point is that Ron Paul has supporters like no other candidate. Noone, democrat or republican, can compete with Ron Paul's supporters. No other candidate can rally his/her supporters to do something like we are going to accomplish on Nov. 5th.

NinjaPirate
10-23-2007, 08:36 PM
The event is not in honor of Guy Fawkes, it's just (loosely) themed around the movie.

davidhperry
10-23-2007, 08:36 PM
b) there's a good chance less money will be raise as could be from folks who aren't fond of the V association

I think that's probably valid. Based on the pro vs. con arguments on this board, it would have al least 30% more people signed up if that were the case.

rs3515
10-23-2007, 08:38 PM
Who really cares though? Sure, it might get some negative press (and infact already has by some bloggers) but the point is irrelevant. This is a grassroots campaign and people need to understand that everything we do is not endorsed by Ron Paul. The point is that Ron Paul has supporters like no other candidate. Noone, democrat or republican, can compete with Ron Paul's supporters. No other candidate can rally his/her supporters to do something like we are going to accomplish on Nov. 5th.


You're entirely missing the point ... it's not about "us" as supporters, it's about our ability to attract a much broader audience who sees the value in Ron Paul's message. I don't care if we have 20 million supporters right now ... all that will do is ensure we lose a general election by 60 million votes. Need to be thinking much bigger picture.

NinjaPirate
10-23-2007, 08:39 PM
Some of you are looking a little too far into this.

paulitics
10-23-2007, 08:39 PM
I was in the same boat as a lot of the detractors at the beginning, but then I thought rationally about it and hopefully this will settle the detractors down:

1) The only way the mainstream media has any chance on reporting this is if the Official Ron Paul Campaign provides some sort of press release about it. Otherwise, nobody is going to pay any attention. If the official campaign thinks releasing the information has benefits that outweigh the risk, then they will release that information. Otherwise they won't. I think it will be the latter of the two, but whatever the case, the official campaign has complete control over whether or not MSM is even notified of the effects of this event.

2) Even if the MSM is notified of the massive one-day donations, they're not going to report it. If they do, they're not going to research it. If we've discovered anything about MSM, they aren't actually journalists most of the time. They take what is given to them and decide how to report it.

So, though I completely disagree with associating a fundraising campaign with V for Vendetta, I don't think Ron Paul is going to be hurt by it in the ways that we're concerned. The only way it is going to hurt is:

a) by the fact that they may decide NOT to report the information to MSM (which is a loss, but, hey, he still gets the money).

and

b) there's a good chance less money will be raise as could be from folks who aren't fond of the V association

These two negatives, though negatives, aren't nearly as bad as the bad press many are anticipating. Remember, nobody is going to talk about this in the MSM even if the Paul campaign does issue a press release; and if the Paul campaign feels a press release is "dangerous" they won't issue one and he'll simply get the money and keep on going.

Hope this helps.

Thats an awful lot of assumptions that the media won't report on it. Especially considering the one of the main reasons for doing a big one day drive was for media attention. If a "supposed long shot" 2nd tier candidate breaks a million dollars or more in one day, it is newsworthy. Lets not forget that the media are looking to shoot him down, and they have an easy way to marginalize him. Wacky stories like this are good for ratings as well, that is why I think it could attract the media's attention, just not the kind of attention we all want.

tfelice
10-23-2007, 08:41 PM
Thats an awful lot of assumptions that the media won't report on it. Especially considering the one of the main reasons for doing a big one day drive was for media attention. If a "supposed long shot" 2nd tier candidate breaks a million dollars or more in one day, it is newsworthy. Lets not forget that the media are looking to shoot him down, and they have an easy way to marginalize him. Wacky stories like this are good for ratings as well, that is why I think it could attract the media's attention, just not the kind of attention we all want.


Agreed. I think Malkin is licking her chops over this. She's published in 200 papers and is on TV alot. This could be the story that earns her a gold star with the MSM.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 08:42 PM
Agreed. I think Malkin is licking her chops over this. She's published in 200 papers and is on TV alot. This could be the story that earns her a gold star with the MSM.


Pfft, Malkin. Let her talk. She says west, 500 people say EAST!!! EAST!! EAST!! she says up, 1000 people say DOWN DOWN DOWN

She is irrelevant. To controversial to be worth a spit. Its like you are worried what Anne Coulter would say. WHO CARES.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 08:43 PM
I've just re-calculated my donation for the 5th of November based on all the whining going on within the various threads concerning this fund raiser and I'm almost up to $500 now, anyone want to go for a cool $1000?

Brinck Slattery
10-23-2007, 08:44 PM
sure man, but donate the extra 500 today so we don't look like huge asses if we fall short of our October goal.

TexMac
10-23-2007, 08:45 PM
Just to put it in a bit more stark terms ... the movie's demographic is 18-to-25 males. Of *all* age groups (male and female), who voted least in the 2004 Presidential Election? 18-to-25 males. Only 48% of them registered to vote, and 38% of them actually voted.

Who voted most in 2004? 45-to-74 year olds.
Which group compromises the largest current US demographic? 35-to-54 year olds.
After 65-and-older, which is the next smallest US demographic group? 18-to-25 year olds.

Courtesy of the Census Bureau.
I'm a 49 year old with twenty-something and teenage kids and I think the V campaign is brilliant and what's more no one I know disagrees, and that includes a substantial number of movement libertarians. I'm astonished at the pearl-clutching going on in this forum.

Maybe young people don't vote because getting involved in a campaign subjects them to this sort of PC outrage and drives them out. We're changing the country here, not conforming to the narrative of the authoritarians. The MSM and MSR (mainstream Republicans) are far more outraged at our opposition to the war than any fundraising drive.

tfelice
10-23-2007, 08:46 PM
You're entirely missing the point ... it's not about "us" as supporters, it's about our ability to attract a much broader audience who sees the value in Ron Paul's message. I don't care if we have 20 million supporters right now ... all that will do is ensure we lose a general election by 60 million votes. Need to be thinking much bigger picture.


I feel your frustration. There is a segment of the grassroots movement that hasn't moved past posting YouTube videos and commenting on blogs. I think some are completely oblivious to the fact that we need a majority of the voters in order to win the nomination, and that majority doesn't follow politics, but votes nonetheless

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 08:46 PM
sure man, but donate the extra 500 today so we don't look like asses when we fall short of our October goal.

No can do, I'm broke right now, I work a job where I get paid once during the first week of the month for a month's work in advance. That's why I barely donated anything during the radio antenna thing.

Bluedevil
10-23-2007, 08:47 PM
I cant believe people are trying to convince people not to give money to the campaign. If that movie, that day inspires people to donate to the campaign that is great. I see no reason why this would be picked up by the media by the way.

DeadheadForPaul
10-23-2007, 08:49 PM
I cant believe people are trying to convince people not to give money to the campaign. If that movie, that day inspires people to donate to the campaign that is great. I see no reason why this would be picked up by the media by the way.

We are NOT trying to keep people from donating to the campaign! We're pushing for Veterans Day which is a mere 6 days later! There is no negative spin on Veterans Day

What would someone's grandmother say if she saw on the news that Ron Paul supporters rallied around a masked terrorist who blows up government buildings

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 08:50 PM
I cant believe people are trying to convince people not to give money to the campaign. If that movie, that day inspires people to donate to the campaign that is great. I see no reason why this would be picked up by the media by the way.

I beginning to question whether the detractors care about the fact that their endless whining could likely cost Ron Paul some support. 18 to 25 year olds have been his base of support up until now, and if he abandons them, he will have no core. I don't vote for mainstream candidates BECAUSE I have to put up with PC bull shit like this every time I deal with their supporters. If you can not speak freely, you are not free.


We are NOT trying to keep people from donating to the campaign! We're pushing for Veterans Day which is a mere 6 days later! There is no negative spin on Veterans Day

What would someone's grandmother say if she saw on the news that Ron Paul supporters rallied around a masked terrorist who blows up government buildings

There are some Japanese Americans who view some of the military/government people who put them in concentration camps as terrorists (minus the mask), do you want to step all over them by rallying around a government that made it's police/military do such things?

madcat033
10-23-2007, 08:50 PM
Again, what purpose does attempting to derail this accomplish?

Do you guys honestly think you are going to stop it? Because unless you think you can stop it, you're wasting time that could have been spent campaigning. And that is a tragedy.

I don't want to stop it. But you know, it'd be nice if we changed the theme of the event. Simply removing bleeding V's and threatening quotes would be nice, since they serve no purpose at all.



You're entirely missing the point ... it's not about "us" as supporters, it's about our ability to attract a much broader audience who sees the value in Ron Paul's message. I don't care if we have 20 million supporters right now ... all that will do is ensure we lose a general election by 60 million votes. Need to be thinking much bigger picture.

Exactly! Regardless of how awesome you think the idea is, mainstream voters will not like it. Guaranteed.

I want you to ask yourself... would the campaign appreciate this? Do you think Lew Moore would approve of any of this? Bleeding V's? HELL. FUCKING. NO.



Some of you are looking a little too far into this.

I thought the same thing. Until I realized how pervasive the theme was. And since it doesn't help us at all, there's no point to having it, is there?

terlinguatx
10-23-2007, 08:53 PM
..

zebov
10-23-2007, 08:54 PM
Thats an awful lot of assumptions that the media won't report on it. Especially considering the one of the main reasons for doing a big one day drive was for media attention. If a "supposed long shot" 2nd tier candidate breaks a million dollars or more in one day, it is newsworthy. Lets not forget that the media are looking to shoot him down, and they have an easy way to marginalize him. Wacky stories like this are good for ratings as well, that is why I think it could attract the media's attention, just not the kind of attention we all want.

That's what I'm saying. The downside of this campaign is that we may in fact get over a million dollars in a day and the official campaign committee may decide NOT to report it. But, if they do report it, that is the risk they are willing to take. It's sad that we have set it up for them in this way where they have to even discuss "downsides" of making a million in a day, but it is in the end up to them whether they want to take the risk or not. I still don't think ANYone is going to report on it (that matters) if they don't issue a press release.

r3volution
10-23-2007, 08:55 PM
the media is on defense because we are rebelling against them using the net , no matter what we do they will spin it . so fudge em ..

Brutus
10-23-2007, 08:57 PM
I signed up for the 11/11/2007 money bomb.

ClockwiseSpark
10-23-2007, 08:58 PM
The use of the movie itself is simply an opportunity to capatilize on the name/ideal recognition for V for Vendetta. It will reach more of the disenchanted and angry than you can imagine, I've seen that first hand.

The context itself is also extremely useful as it shows a society that has been oppressed by it's government in the name of security and safety. Starting to sound familiar?

I've seen alot of posts about the implied threat involved in this and I see the validity in that. The point I think your missing is the intentional implied threat. The ability to generate this amount of money on one day, combined with the movie's implications say, "We are united and we've had enough".

As for what the media will spin this into, who cares. Since when are we responsible for their lies?

"You really think that blowing up Parlimant is going to make this country a better place?"
"There's no certainty, only opportunity."
"People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people."
"And your going to make that happen by blowing up a building?"
" The building is a symbol as is the act of destroying it. Symbols are given power by people. Alone a symbol is meaningless but with enough people blowing up a building can change the world."

zebov
10-23-2007, 08:58 PM
I signed up for the 11/11/2007 money bomb.

I didn't realize until now, but that date kinda has a ring to it "eleven eleven two-thousand seven."

madcat033
10-23-2007, 08:59 PM
I cant believe people are trying to convince people not to give money to the campaign. If that movie, that day inspires people to donate to the campaign that is great. I see no reason why this would be picked up by the media by the way.

I can't believe some people can miss the point so many times. I don't even have a problem with doing it on november 5th. I just want all the V imagery removed. It's pointless. Unless someone can point out how it helps us, it should be removed.



I feel your frustration. There is a segment of the grassroots movement that hasn't moved past posting YouTube videos and commenting on blogs. I think some are completely oblivious to the fact that we need a majority of the voters in order to win the nomination, and that majority doesn't follow politics, but votes nonetheless

Yeah, that's the problem with grassroots campaigns. People are too fucking stupid and stubborn that they refuse to forgo their own desires for the good of the campaign. You all stubbornly cling to this stupid V imagery, when the mainstream voter will not like it. You can't think in terms of what YOU want, we need to think in terms of what will sell well to the general public.

How can we overcome this?



I'm a 49 year old with twenty-something and teenage kids and I think the V campaign is brilliant and what's more no one I know disagrees, and that includes a substantial number of movement libertarians. I'm astonished at the pearl-clutching going on in this forum.

Maybe young people don't vote because getting involved in a campaign subjects them to this sort of PC outrage and drives them out. We're changing the country here, not conforming to the narrative of the authoritarians. The MSM and MSR (mainstream Republicans) are far more outraged at our opposition to the war than any fundraising drive.

PC outrage or not, the bottom line is the V imagery hurts the campaign more than it helps (it actually does not help at all).

None of this shit matters about being self righteous and you know, sticking it to the man with your disregard for political correctness. What matters is winning this goddamn election, and this stupid bloody V bullshit only hurts our chances.

And "movement libertarians" aren't going to win the fucking election. Your friends and kids aren't going to win this election. WE NEED THE SUPPORT OF MAINSTREAM AMERICANS. Doesn't anyone on this fucking board understand that? We need a MAJORITY OF AMERICA. That means your average joe on the street. Your old grandma. Everyone. Not just your counterculture friends.



We are NOT trying to keep people from donating to the campaign! We're pushing for Veterans Day which is a mere 6 days later! There is no negative spin on Veterans Day

What would someone's grandmother say if she saw on the news that Ron Paul supporters rallied around a masked terrorist who blows up government buildings

Exactly. Do you think the values voters would like this? Or any middle aged or elderly people? No. Do you think a professional type businessman is going to like this imagery? No. We need to appeal to EVERYONE.

And I don't even care about the day. If we get rid of all the V for Vendetta and Guy Fawkes references, then they wouldn't be able to do much negative shit about the day. Although it was stupid in the first place.



I beginning to question whether the detractors care about the fact that their endless whining could likely cost Ron Paul some support. 18 to 25 year olds have been his base of support up until now, and if he abandons them, he will have no core. I don't vote for mainstream candidates BECAUSE I have to put up with PC bull shit like this every time I deal with their supporters. If you can not speak freely, you are not free.


Uhh, you think that 18 to 25 year olds will abandon our cause because we took down the V imagery? No. Do you think a lot of middle aged and elderly people will be put off because of the V imagery? Possibly.

It's not about all this self righteous, FREEDOM bullshit. This is about winning an election. I'm not censoring anyone, I'm merely pointing out that this V imagery hurts our chances more than it helps them.

madcat033
10-23-2007, 09:02 PM
Oh, and for anyone who says "the media won't harp on it, blah blah!" What about this:

One particular website -- RonPaulForums.com -- carried the message: "time to pwn a poll at a christian right's newsite" and directed supporters to the poll. "Pwn" -- a misspelling of "own" -- is a term originating from the gaming world, meaning basically "to take unauthorized control of."

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 09:04 PM
Uhh, you think that 18 to 25 year olds will abandon our cause because we took down the V imagery? No. Do you think a lot of middle aged and elderly people will be put off because of the V imagery? Possibly.

It's not about all this self righteous, FREEDOM bullshit. This is about winning an election. I'm not censoring anyone, I'm merely pointing out that this V imagery hurts our chances more than it helps them.

Just continue your whining madcat, every time I read one of these posts I'm adding $5 to my 11/5 donation. And for the record, I'm shocked at your attitude towards freedom, why are you supporting Ron Paul if you think FREEDOM is bullshit? Man, you V detractors really need to think before you post.

Brinck Slattery
10-23-2007, 09:05 PM
he's not calling freedom "bullshit," he's calling out the juvenile "I'm Mel Gibson in Braveheart fighting for FREEEEEDDDDDOOOOMMMMMM!!!" attitude a lot of people are exhibiting.

ClockwiseSpark
10-23-2007, 09:05 PM
Oh, and for anyone who says "the media won't harp on it, blah blah!" What about this:

One particular website -- RonPaulForums.com -- carried the message: "time to pwn a poll at a christian right's newsite" and directed supporters to the poll. "Pwn" -- a misspelling of "own" -- is a term originating from the gaming world, meaning basically "to take unauthorized control of."

That's not even accurate. You show your bias and ignorance by reposting it.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:06 PM
Oh, and for anyone who says "the media won't harp on it, blah blah!" What about this:

One particular website -- RonPaulForums.com -- carried the message: "time to pwn a poll at a christian right's newsite" and directed supporters to the poll. "Pwn" -- a misspelling of "own" -- is a term originating from the gaming world, meaning basically "to take unauthorized control of."

Yup that sucks, but it wasn't quite "the media", it was the site that put the poll up.

So, yeah, the V stuff not too hot, but, really, stop the gloom and doom predicitions, unless you have a crystal ball.... and if you do, just let us all know right now whether Ron will win or not, so we can stop wasting time if he won't.

tfelice
10-23-2007, 09:07 PM
That's not even accurate. You show your bias and ignorance by reposting it.

Accuracy means nothing. The story is being reported. I know you are not naive enough to think that the MSM & neo-cons don't have interns browsing these and the other candidate's forums?

madcat033
10-23-2007, 09:07 PM
Just continue your whining madcat, every time I read one of these posts I'm adding $5 to my 11/5 donation. And for the record, I'm shocked at your attitude towards freedom, why are you supporting Ron Paul if you think FREEDOM is bullshit? Man, you V detractors really need to think before you post.

I don't think freedom is bullshit. I'm saying you're being an idiot and being all self righteous. I'm not censoring anyone. I'm not infringing on free speech. I believe very strongly in free speech. You are merely attempting to red herring the issue by saying that I hate freedom because I'm pointing out how stupid this is.

You wrote "If you can not speak freely, you are not free." What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Of course you can speak freely. I never suggested otherwise. All I am saying is that the V imagery hurts the campaign more than it helps, and thus it should be removed. Where did I leave you room to spout off self righteous bullshit and acting like you are fucking thomas jefferson or something?


Everyone here is so childish...

TexMac
10-23-2007, 09:08 PM
I can't believe some people can miss the point so many times. I don't even have a problem with doing it on november 5th. I just want all the V imagery removed. It's pointless. Unless someone can point out how it helps us, it should be removed.




Yeah, that's the problem with grassroots campaigns. People are too fucking stupid and stubborn that they refuse to forgo their own desires for the good of the campaign. You all stubbornly cling to this stupid V imagery, when the mainstream voter will not like it. You can't think in terms of what YOU want, we need to think in terms of what will sell well to the general public.

How can we overcome this?




PC outrage or not, the bottom line is the V imagery hurts the campaign more than it helps (it actually does not help at all).

None of this shit matters about being self righteous and you know, sticking it to the man with your disregard for political correctness. What matters is winning this goddamn election, and this stupid bloody V bullshit only hurts our chances.

And "movement libertarians" aren't going to win the fucking election. Your friends and kids aren't going to win this election. WE NEED THE SUPPORT OF MAINSTREAM AMERICANS. Doesn't anyone on this fucking board understand that? We need a MAJORITY OF AMERICA. That means your average joe on the street. Your old grandma. Everyone. Not just your counterculture friends.




Exactly. Do you think the values voters would like this? Or any middle aged or elderly people? No. Do you think a professional type businessman is going to like this imagery? No. We need to appeal to EVERYONE.

And I don't even care about the day. If we get rid of all the V for Vendetta and Guy Fawkes references, then they wouldn't be able to do much negative shit about the day. Although it was stupid in the first place.





Uhh, you think that 18 to 25 year olds will abandon our cause because we took down the V imagery? No. Do you think a lot of middle aged and elderly people will be put off because of the V imagery? Possibly.

It's not about all this self righteous, FREEDOM bullshit. This is about winning an election. I'm not censoring anyone, I'm merely pointing out that this V imagery hurts our chances more than it helps them.

Wow . This forum is getting too Republican. See ya'll at a meetup or the philly rally. Out.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 09:09 PM
he's not calling freedom "bullshit," he's calling out the juvenile "I'm Mel Gibson in Braveheart fighting for FREEEEEDDDDDOOOOMMMMMM!!!" attitude a lot of people are exhibiting.

He uses the word Bull shit and Freedom in the same sentence and then gets off calling people putting up money for Paul on a day he doesn't like as being juvenile? The bounds of this discourse outside the realm of reason are ever expanding.

I have a novel idea, all of the supporters of the Nov. 11 date create your own threads and mind your own business, let us juveniles decide how to spend out own money. Especially you madcat, that last emotional outburst is doing you no good and simply adding to my total donation, go to a pro-Nov. 11 thread and leave us in peace.

G-khan
10-23-2007, 09:10 PM
Personally I think we have trolls here that want the 5th to be a big flop. They may not support Ron Paul at all - could be paid trolls!

Makes me want to give even more on the 5th..

madcat033
10-23-2007, 09:10 PM
That's not even accurate. You show your bias and ignorance by reposting it.

Are you fucking kidding me? Please tell me you are not that fucking stupid. By reposting it I am showing bias and ignorance? By posting a VERY RELEVANT example of how the media can negatively portray things we do? Even things we don't promote, and didn't know they would even see?

And last I checked, accuracy doesn't matter. Obviously they just pulled that definition of "pwn" out of their ass. I laughed when I read them make up a definition for pwn. However, what matters is THAT'S WHAT THEY REPORT. As Ron Paul would say, you need to look at the consequences of your actions. Alright?



Yup that sucks, but it wasn't quite "the media", it was the site that put the poll up.

So, yeah, the V stuff not too hot, but, really, stop the gloom and doom predicitions, unless you have a crystal ball.... and if you do, just let us all know right now whether Ron will win or not, so we can stop wasting time if he won't.

I don't have gloom and doom predictions. I'm just saying we should take it down since it poses a risk and does not give us any discernable benefit. You'd have to be a moron to take on excess risk without benefit.

NinjaPirate
10-23-2007, 09:12 PM
I thought the same thing. Until I realized how pervasive the theme was. And since it doesn't help us at all, there's no point to having it, is there?

It's not about Guy Fawkes, it's themed around the movie. V was the hero for the people and the enemy against the government.

The point of having this is to get people to donate.

I think the 11th is a good idea, but the time the V theme took off it gained too much momentum to change course. Changing the date will cause a lot confusion and essentially ruin the outcome of the event.

Question_Authority
10-23-2007, 09:13 PM
also many people [would] have to be insane to connect the movie to RP's campaign.

Did you not get the memo? Most people in this country ARE insane.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 09:14 PM
Personally I think we have trolls here that want the 5th to be a big flop. They may not support Ron Paul at all - could be paid trolls!

Makes me want to give even more on the 5th..

I'm beginning to think the exact same thing.

huchahucha
10-23-2007, 09:15 PM
Pardon me for pointing out he obvious, but unless someone blows up Parliament on the 5th, who gives a shit?

Brinck Slattery
10-23-2007, 09:15 PM
ya, you guys figured me out. I started 3 meetup groups, spent hundreds of dollars on signs and supplies, all in an elaborate ruse to troll the Ron Paul forums. Fuck! Now I have to go back to the Giuliani campaign all chagrined.

tfelice
10-23-2007, 09:16 PM
Did you not get the memo? Most people in this country ARE insane.


It's not so much that they are insane. It's moreso that they don't pay attention. It's a soundbite culture. So "Ron Paul - Domestic Terrorism, -White Supremecists" is all most people will hear.

stevedasbach
10-23-2007, 09:16 PM
Get over it? Why? We are unnecessarily harming (or risking to harm) the campaign.

And to this day, I have not heard ONE justification for the v for vendetta imagery. Why should I get over it when no one can even say what we stand to gain from this?

Why should I get over this NEEDLESS risk to our campaign? If there's no benefit, what's the point? Can anyone answer that?

It should be clear by now that the proponents of using the "V" imagery & linkage aren't going to be swayed. The arguments have been made -- over and over. Continuing to argue the point, when there is ZERO chance of changing anyone's mind, simply generates internal strife that also can hurt the campaign.

madcat033
10-23-2007, 09:16 PM
He uses the word Bull shit and Freedom in the same sentence and then gets off calling people putting up money for Paul on a day he doesn't like as being juvenile? The bounds of this discourse outside the realm of reason are ever expanding.

I have a novel idea, all of the supporters of the Nov. 11 date create your own threads and mind your own business, let us juveniles decide how to spend out own money.

I never said we shouldn't donate. I think it's a great idea. I don't even have a problem with the date. We can keep the date. Just get rid of the bleeding V's and the guy fawkes quotes. I didn't say people that donate are juvenile, I said that this V shit is juvenile and that some people in this thread are saying some really juvenile things.

And if you had any reading comprehension, I never said freedom was bullshit, you just like to put words in my mouth to discredit me. What I said was bullshit, is your attempt to act like you are some kind of fucking first amendment guardian when it is completely unnecessary and irrelevant.





Personally I think we have trolls here that want the 5th to be a big flop. They may not support Ron Paul at all - could be paid trolls!

Makes me want to give even more on the 5th..

Considering I am on a video on Ron Paul's website, and I was on CNN.com for chalking UNH's campus before the republican debate, and I am his student officer for UCLA, I'd say not.

I'd say that anyone who calls me a troll for merely criticizing an upcoming event is the real infringer on free speech. Why are you so afraid of conflicting viewpoints that you just resort to calling me a troll, or saying that i am trying to censor people, or that I am authoritarian, whatever.

I made a perfectly legitimate point that so far no one has been able to refute. So far all we've gotten are name calling, red herrings, questions of loyalty, et cetera.

Ron Paul would be very disappointed in you people.

ClockwiseSpark
10-23-2007, 09:17 PM
Are you fucking kidding me? Please tell me you are not that fucking stupid. By reposting it I am showing bias and ignorance? By posting a VERY RELEVANT example of how the media can negatively portray things we do? Even things we don't promote, and didn't know they would even see?

And last I checked, accuracy doesn't matter. Obviously they just pulled that definition of "pwn" out of their ass. I laughed when I read them make up a definition for pwn. However, what matters is THAT'S WHAT THEY REPORT. As Ron Paul would say, you need to look at the consequences of your actions. Alright?
Listen you stupid fuck, we are not responsible for what they say. They are going to lie, cheat, deceive, I'm pretty sure we've established that. We do what we do and they ignore us at their peril.
As for your comment earlier, yes you are driving people away. Perhaps you missed their posts in your ranting. Now how about you stop hurting the campaign and shut your ignorant mouth.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:19 PM
It not going to happen, OK?

V is not going anywhere.

Ron Paul is not goign to turn pro-choice

and he will be against amnesty. Some people dont like it, but that's just the way it is.

Furthermore, you cannot see the future.

Its not that great, but your predictions of doom and gloom have only a 5% chance of happening, and whatever happens, it is in no way going to hurt the campagin nearly as much as a one million dolar day will help.

who do you think you are? You are not going to stop them, so give it up. I am sorry, tehy are the ones who dared to dream in the first place. Next tiem, you come up with an innovative dream first, and dare to speak it, and work to make it happen, then you will have control.

Stealth4
10-23-2007, 09:19 PM
I guess I agree we should move the date - make it one day earlier or later.

NinjaPirate
10-23-2007, 09:19 PM
What Guy Fawkes quotes? He didn't make any quotes that I'm aware of.

If you're referring to: Remember, remember the fifth of November that's been taken from short poems and childrens rhymes.

NinjaPirate
10-23-2007, 09:20 PM
Listen you stupid fuck...

Play nice.

madcat033
10-23-2007, 09:21 PM
What's amazing is, I bring up this criticism because I think it going to harm the campaign. I think it will harm Ron's chances of becoming president. And when I bring it up, people call me a troll. People say I am trying to sabotage the 5th of november. People say I am trying to ruin this event.

You are doing to me what the media does to Ron Paul. When he criticizes our foreign policy, everyone just labels him crazy instead of debating his facts. Bill Maher said it best "No one said, hey ron paul, you're factually incorrect." "He's saying the truth and they're treating him like a crazy person!"

kherty
10-23-2007, 09:21 PM
I think the bleeding V and the video are terrible for the campaign.

The idea for the fundraising is great, but we are fighting the mainstream media stereotypical image of Ron Paul 'wackos' as it is.

Too fringe for me!

I'm a professional woman in my 30s and I don't consider myself necessarily "mainstream." But I don't get it...

Why not stay on with Ron's message to promote liberty? Stay positive....his foes don't need any ammo and we shouldn't provide it! Ron doesn't deserve it.

madcat033
10-23-2007, 09:22 PM
Listen you stupid fuck, we are not responsible for what they say. They are going to lie, cheat, deceive, I'm pretty sure we've established that. We do what we do and they ignore us at their peril.
As for your comment earlier, yes you are driving people away. Perhaps you missed their posts in your ranting. Now how about you stop hurting the campaign and shut your ignorant mouth.

And you still haven't refuted my points...

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:22 PM
I guess I agree we should move the date - make it one day earlier or later.


not
going
to
happen

The word has been spred by a lot more than just this forum

it has goen viral

the virus is out

you are not going to be able to stop it

so give

it

up

ClockwiseSpark
10-23-2007, 09:22 PM
Play nice.

I was responding in kind.

Eric21ND
10-23-2007, 09:23 PM
Personally I think we have trolls here that want the 5th to be a big flop. They may not support Ron Paul at all - could be paid trolls!

Makes me want to give even more on the 5th..

I've been saying that for a while. These trolls don't want us to raise a pile of cash that day for Dr. Paul.

madcat033
10-23-2007, 09:23 PM
What Guy Fawkes quotes? He didn't make any quotes that I'm aware of.

If you're referring to: Remember, remember the fifth of November that's been taken from short poems and childrens rhymes.

Look at the very first post in this thread. They put a quote in the beginning of the video that says "A desperate disease requires a dangerous remedy"

Yeah, comparing Ron Paul to a "dangerous remedy" sure is great for the campaign! Thanks guys!

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:24 PM
What's amazing is, I bring up this criticism because I think it going to harm the campaign. I think it will harm Ron's chances of becoming president. And when I bring it up, people call me a troll. People say I am trying to sabotage the 5th of november. People say I am trying to ruin this event.

You are doing to me what the media does to Ron Paul. When he criticizes our foreign policy, everyone just labels him crazy instead of debating his facts. Bill Maher said it best "No one said, hey ron paul, you're factually incorrect." "He's saying the truth and they're treating him like a crazy person!"

I
have

the v will not be pulled

the date will not be changed

I have agreed it is bad, but there is no consensus

no consensus means it is not going to happen

get used to it

and be prepared to be wrong on the 6th.

Do you like your crow with pepper or butter?

Corydoras
10-23-2007, 09:25 PM
Wow, the rest of the forums have been so peaceful while everyone with extra elbows has been hanging out on this thread.

madcat033
10-23-2007, 09:26 PM
not
going
to
happen

The word has been spred by a lot more than just this forum

it has goen viral

the virus is out

you are not going to be able to stop it

so give

it

up

I'm not suggesting moving the date. Just remove the V imagery. Remove the bleeding V's, remove the quotes comparing RP to a "dangerous remedy". Remove all that shit. Leave the date. The webmaster could do it in 5 mins.




I've been saying that for a while. These trolls don't want us to raise a pile of cash that day for Dr. Paul.

Hah, he proves my point! I bring up a valid point, because I am concerned about the campaign, and he labels me a troll and says I don't want Ron Paul to have a bunch of money.

Sound familiar? Ron Paul suggests maybe we leave the rest of the world alone, and they label him as a crazy person who doesn't care about national security.

DeadheadForPaul
10-23-2007, 09:26 PM
I think the bleeding V and the video are terrible for the campaign.

The idea for the fundraising is great, but we are fighting the mainstream media stereotypical image of Ron Paul 'wackos' as it is.

Too fringe for me!

I'm a professional woman in my 30s and I don't consider myself necessarily "mainstream." But I don't get it...

Why not stay on with Ron's message to promote liberty? Stay positive....his foes don't need any ammo and we shouldn't provide it! Ron doesn't deserve it.

ding ding ding!

We dont have a problem with the day. We have a problem with the imagery. Of all the things you could link our fundraising to (Constitution Day, Veterans Day, tax day, etc) you choose some obscure movie that appeals to mostly 18-25 year old eccentric males - the type of people we ALREADY have won over,have the least amount of money, and show up the least at the polls?

If our goal is to garner media attention, why would we willingly try to bring attention to some fringe movie

madcat033
10-23-2007, 09:27 PM
I
have

the v will not be pulled

the date will not be changed

I have agreed it is bad, but there is no consensus

no consensus means it is not going to happen

get used to it

and be prepared to be wrong on the 6th.

Do you like your crow with pepper or butter?


Wrong? What could I be wrong about? I never said it WOULD create a lot of negative backlash. I'm just saying that the chance is there. And since we gain nothing from the V imagery, it's stupid to risk it.

What do I have to be wrong about? Can you refute my points?

ClockwiseSpark
10-23-2007, 09:27 PM
Hah, he proves my point! I bring up a valid point, because I am concerned about the campaign, and he labels me a troll and says I don't want Ron Paul to have a bunch of money.

Sound familiar? Ron Paul suggests maybe we leave the rest of the world alone, and they label him as a crazy person who doesn't care about national security.

No, your a troll.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:27 PM
I'm not suggesting moving the date. Just remove the V imagery. Remove the bleeding V's, remove the quotes comparing RP to a "dangerous remedy". Remove all that shit. Leave the date. The webmaster could do it in 5 mins.


Not

going

to happen

capice?

Do you understand this?

You can post 1000 more times, talking abotu how bad the symbolism is

it will not be removed

is this making sense yet?

Ridiculous
10-23-2007, 09:28 PM
I've been saying that for a while. These trolls don't want us to raise a pile of cash that day for Dr. Paul.

We aren't trolls we are just concerned.

We do want you to raise cash every day for Paul. We just don't want Ron Paul to be associated with a violent comic book hero, or bleeding Vs that are upsidedown "anarchy As"

It screams fringe candidate.

We realize that it is too late to stop the 5th, most of us actually hope it does well with money.

We just hate the V association. It isn't needed.

I even like V for Vendetta and own it. But associating Paul with it, regardless of its message won't help him win a campaign for president.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:28 PM
Wrong? What could I be wrong about? I never said it WOULD create a lot of negative backlash. I'm just saying that the chance is there. And since we gain nothing from the V imagery, it's stupid to risk it.

What do I have to be wrong about? Can you refute my points?

I agree with your points. I have already stated I have, and stated way before you figured it out, that it looks bad


However


it will not be removed

not

going

to

happen


so stop worrying about it

Jojo
10-23-2007, 09:28 PM
A whole lot of people bitching at me for bringing this up...

yet no one can tell me what we stand to gain from this.

I'm waiting for an answer on that as well..
I'm not on here a lot so I'm not sure who started this idea and what is so great about it. I've been really trying to see the bright side before condemning it. I haven't seen the movie, so I can only imagine that many others like me will find it a weird thing to associate dr. Paul with a bloody V as well. And ugly. Just as his campaign is really taking off.. Really makes me suspicious. Call me paranoid.

Drknows
10-23-2007, 09:29 PM
I never said we shouldn't donate. I think it's a great idea. I don't even have a problem with the date. We can keep the date. Just get rid of the bleeding V's and the guy fawkes quotes. I didn't say people that donate are juvenile, I said that this V shit is juvenile and that some people in this thread are saying some really juvenile things.

.

This has been played out over and over and people are sick of seeing these threads,

We dont own the site, we didnt make the design, and we didnt come up with the idea.

If you have a problem with it go here please.
http://thisnovember5th.com/

there is a email contact at the bottom.

There is no point in arguing with people who have no control over it. It pisses you off and it pisses everyone else off.

madcat033
10-23-2007, 09:30 PM
No, your a troll.

Okay... no rebuttals, no refuting my points, just more name calling. Alright. Good job. You called me a name first, so you win.

Remember in the Huck vs. Paul debate? Ron Paul kept saying logic and facts and Huckabee just kept saying "we can't lose our honor!" over and over? Yeah, I think I know how Ron Paul felt.



Not

going

to happen

capice?

Do you understand this?

You can post 1000 more times, talking abotu how bad the symbolism is

it will not be removed

is this making sense yet?


Okay, so you agree that I am right, yet you say that it's not going to happen so I should shut up about it?

Praytell, what about the people who say "Yeah, I agree with Ron Paul, but he has no chance of winning so I don't want to waste my vote."

Wow, we have a lot of idiots working on our grassroots campaign.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 09:31 PM
I never said we shouldn't donate. I think it's a great idea. I don't even have a problem with the date. We can keep the date. Just get rid of the bleeding V's and the guy fawkes quotes. I didn't say people that donate are juvenile, I said that this V shit is juvenile and that some people in this thread are saying some really juvenile things.

And if you had any reading comprehension, I never said freedom was bullshit, you just like to put words in my mouth to discredit me. What I said was bullshit, is your attempt to act like you are some kind of fucking first amendment guardian when it is completely unnecessary and irrelevant.

You discredited yourself long before I responded to your posts on here, the only thing I did was push your buttons a little to test and see what kind of power trip you are on, and I just got the answer in the second part of your post.


Considering I am on a video on Ron Paul's website, and I was on CNN.com for chalking UNH's campus before the republican debate, and I am his student officer for UCLA, I'd say not.

You've done some pretty impressive stuff, so have a lot of others here, that doesn't change a single thing. This fund raiser is independent of the campaign, hence even thick headed elitists who think they know more because they think they are closer to the campaign than some of us who poured hundreds of dollars into his campaign in Q1, before anyone took him seriously, and before he had 10,000 myspace friends have zero say in what I do or others do at the grassroots level.

I refuted your point about 4 dozen posts back, and I shall now do it again by telling you exactly who this will appeal to. I liked V for Vendetta as a movie because I know better than to swallow the biased source of the English Crown concerning the Gun Powder treason. There is a large contingent of anti-war Catholics out there besides myself, particularly of Irish/UK descent, who have been taught the other point of view regarding the Guy Fawkes issue, which is covered throughout V for Vendetta accurately by my view. Those people WILL donate when they know that there is someone out there for them better than Ghouliani.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:31 PM
I'm waiting for an answer on that as well..
I'm not on here a lot so I'm not sure who started this idea and what is so great about it. I've been really trying to see the bright side before condemning it. I haven't seen the movie, so I can only imagine that many others like me will find it a weird thing to associate dr. Paul with a bloody V as well. And ugly. Just as his campaign is really taking off.. Really makes me suspicious. Call me paranoid.


the answer, si that it may encourage some younger fans og th emovie to cough up some dough

that is the advantage

teh disadvantage is it could turn some people off, if the media tries to play it up

regardless of advantage, or disadvantage, your arguments have been hashed through of 50 other threads, and will continue to be hashed over and over and over again


However

the V will not be removed

argument is over

You may flame away if you want, and I'll just keep agreeing with you

but for now, it is better to zip it, and hope for the best

Jerome
10-23-2007, 09:33 PM
Focus your energy elsewhere. If your goal isn't spreading the message of Ron Paul & his ideals then you're dead weight.

We have much worse problems than someone trying to single handedly raise $10MM by themselves.

This point is moot. Move on.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:34 PM
Remember in the Huck vs. Paul debate? Ron Paul kept saying logic and facts and Huckabee just kept saying "we can't lose our honor!" over and over? Yeah, I think I know how Ron Paul felt.

Sorry you feel that way



Okay, so you agree that I am right, yet you say that it's not going to happen so I should shut up about it?

yes


Praytell, what about the people who say "Yeah, I agree with Ron Paul, but he has no chance of winning so I don't want to waste my vote."

Change their minds.


Wow, we have a lot of idiots working on our grassroots campaign.

Ok, you win. V is bad. too bad they won't remove it. Let's all have a beer.

paulitics
10-23-2007, 09:34 PM
I agree with your points. I have already stated I have, and stated way before you figured it out, that it looks bad


However


it will not be removed

not

going

to

happen


so stop worrying about it


If it looks bad

than why


won't

it be

removed

or better yet,

edited

a very simple solution

A compromise.

ClockwiseSpark
10-23-2007, 09:34 PM
Okay... no rebuttals, no refuting my points, just more name calling. Alright. Good job. You called me a name first, so you win.Remember in the Huck vs. Paul debate? Ron Paul kept saying logic and facts and Huckabee just kept saying "we can't lose our honor!" over and over? Yeah, I think I know how Ron Paul felt.





Okay, so you agree that I am right, yet you say that it's not going to happen so I should shut up about it?

Praytell, what about the people who say "Yeah, I agree with Ron Paul, but he has no chance of winning so I don't want to waste my vote."

Wow, we have a lot of idiots working on our grassroots campaign.

Actually I explained it in my first post in this thread. I'm sure you just overlooked it and are not simply trying to create problems. :rolleyes:

Jojo
10-23-2007, 09:36 PM
the answer, si that it may encourage some younger fans og th emovie to cough up some dough

that is the advantage

teh disadvantage is it could turn some people off, if the media tries to play it up

regardless of advantage, or disadvantage, your arguments have been hashed through of 50 other threads, and will continue to be hashed over and over and over again


However

the V will not be removed

argument is over

You may flame away if you want, and I'll just keep agreeing with you

but for now, it is better to zip it, and hope for the best

You have some nerve to talk to people like that.
Plus you make no sense: it has been mainly young people already driving this movement. Time to get some more 'older' people in.

I'll zip it when I damn well please.

Corydoras
10-23-2007, 09:36 PM
it is better to zip it, and hope for the best

Nah, the atmosphere is especially serene on the rest of the forums while the brawlers are concentrated on this thread. Seriously. Have at it, folks, so other people can have conversations in peace. Just contain it to this thread.
:cool:

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:36 PM
If it looks bad

than why


won't

it be

removed

or better yet,

edited

a very simple solution

that can

shut up the naysayers.

Because you are the 500th person to argue loudly about it, and they have yet to budge.

Your arguments are not new, they are the same arguments that have been made over and over again

You will not convince the guy who is in charge of it from changing it.

I dont care if the holy spirit itself comes down from heaven and moves your lips. The guy's mind is made up.

Its not going to happen.

BarryDonegan
10-23-2007, 09:37 PM
how can you guys still be worried about what the media says?

congress has an 11% approval rating and the president a historic low also.

why fit in with the status quo?

Ridiculous
10-23-2007, 09:37 PM
If it looks bad

than why


won't

it be

removed

or better yet,

edited

a very simple solution

A compromise.

Because once

some people

get an idea in their

heads

they give the idea a "halo effect"

and won't listen to

anyone who brings up

any negative impact

that their idea might have

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:38 PM
You have some nerve to talk to people like that.
Plus you make no sense: it has been mainly young people already driving this movement. Time to get some more 'older' people in.

I'll zip it when I damn well please.


Go ahead, it will not change anything.

alien
10-23-2007, 09:39 PM
I've been saying that for a while. These trolls don't want us to raise a pile of cash that day for Dr. Paul.

I have also said the the same thing. How hard is it for someone to throw a little video together to try and make the 5th look worse than it is. Some people are trying to make it look like we are going to physically attack the government. We are fighting with pens not guns for this revolution. Don't let people distract you. I am giving on the fifth and I don't care what anyone makes of it.

I'm sure that any canidate could just as easily be misrepresented.

Brinck Slattery
10-23-2007, 09:39 PM
I say all the people that are right about this issue should pull a Galt's Gulch and withdraw ourselves from further discussion. It is obvious that we're not changing any minds, regardless of the quality of our arguments.

Jojo
10-23-2007, 09:41 PM
Because you are the 500th person to argue loudly about it, and they have yet to budge.

Your arguments are not new, they are the same arguments that have been made over and over again

You will not convince the guy who is in charge of it from changing it.

I dont care if the holy spirit itself comes down from heaven and moves your lips. The guy's mind is made up.

Its not going to happen.

Sounds like you are the guy, you sound so sure. In any case, nice guy, so many people object and yet he won't listen to their points. Pretty closed minded.

tfelice
10-23-2007, 09:41 PM
If it looks bad than why won't it be removed or better yet, edited a very simple solution A compromise.

The owner of the site posts on this forum and was involved in a discussion earlier today with myself and a few others. In essence, he refused to make any design changes and refused to address the problem with stormfront displaying his banner on their site.

He has dug his heels in and won't budge on the issue of modifying his site.

jake
10-23-2007, 09:41 PM
the original post is spot on. ILL CONCEIVED IDEA. :mad:

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:43 PM
Sounds like you are the guy, you sound so sure. In any case, nice guy, so many people object and yet he won't listen to their points. Pretty closed minded.

I agree, I wish he would take it down. I was very pleased to see he put 3 other videos with different themes, and the ron paul girl is also detracting attention from the V theme. So he is not all bad,but I think he likes his V idea way too much to just take it down, but he has diluted it.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 09:43 PM
I say all the people that are right about this issue should pull a Galt's Gulch and withdraw ourselves from further discussion. It is obvious that we're not changing any minds, regardless of the quality of our arguments.

I'm in agreement with you on this, but I still need to tally up how many $5 additions I have to make to my November 5th donation, so I think I'll just lurk for a while. I do have a ceiling of course, and it has almost been reached.

CCTelander
10-23-2007, 09:44 PM
I'm waiting for an answer on that as well..
I'm not on here a lot so I'm not sure who started this idea and what is so great about it. I've been really trying to see the bright side before condemning it. I haven't seen the movie, so I can only imagine that many others like me will find it a weird thing to associate dr. Paul with a bloody V as well. And ugly. Just as his campaign is really taking off.. Really makes me suspicious. Call me paranoid.


You know, I've seen it called a "bloody 'V' " dozens of times and just let it go, but it's really starting to bother me so I'm going to get this off my chest.

It is NOT a "bloody v." The drips are dripping PAINT, not blood.

The "V" stands for victory, victory over an oppressive government, which seems very appropriate considering current circumstances.

In the movie, people who oppose that oppression are seen hastily spray painting the Vs on walls and such. The paint drips.

A similar theme was used in the Science Fiction mini-series from the 80's called "V", and the short-lived TV series of the same name.

Similar themes have also been used in the past both in popular fiction and in real life. The letter "V" seems to resonate with people for some reason and is thus a powerful symbol. I think it works.

I know in the bgreater scheme of things most of this is probably unimportant. Like I said, I just had to get it off my chest.

Chris

Jojo
10-23-2007, 09:45 PM
Go ahead, it will not change anything.

I don't need your permission.
Whether it will change anything or not, I will voice my opinion. Get used to it.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 09:46 PM
I don't need your permission.
Whether it will change anything or not, I will voice my opinion. Get used to it.

Well well, I may have to add $10 to my Nov. 5th donation for that one, the impudence in the air right now is so thick here you could almost cut it with a knife.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:46 PM
I have seen a local news clip on youtube, where two paul supporters had V masks on, and I just slapped my head and thought.. IDIOTS!!!

But there is nothing that can be done about it.

jkaufmann
10-23-2007, 09:46 PM
I'm torn on this issue, and it seems both sides are deadlocked. I would never say this before but both sides are right.

I am not sure anything can be done once the cat is out of the Bag, so to speak. And I think it is already out.

There is one compromise.. Immediately after the 5th, what will replace the web site? We can compromise and come up with a very positive spin changing the V for Vendetta to something else much, much more positive. And lots of help to spread it.

Whatever that fancy message is, there is one shot to associate it to spin "Remember the 5th" differently.

I also think this should be communicated in a private forum by those that know each other. Make it a positive message, one for liberty, and peace.

I don't have any exact ideas how to do that at the moment, but I'll ponder it!

paulitics
10-23-2007, 09:47 PM
Because you are the 500th person to argue loudly about it, and they have yet to budge.


Ok, and doesn't that denote an inherent problem with the V theme if I am the 500th person to argue the same exact thing?. Maybe that would suggest that there is something to what we are saying perhaps. We all can't be trolls.

And I don't believe in power trips, to not budge or compromise when you have so many people who are voicing their opinion against this, that think this could sink the campaign. Do you know the website owner, that he is this obstinate? It is to my understanding that some people who originally liked the idea, are seeing it as being a little more fringe now, because of the violent connotations.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:48 PM
I don't need your permission.
Whether it will change anything or not, I will voice my opinion. Get used to it.

Go for it.

Let it all out.

Just understand, at the end of the day, the V stays.

Oh, and it will get $805,000 in a day, if today were the 5th.

in 12 days, it will probably be up to 12,000

Not bad for an idea.

justinc.1089
10-23-2007, 09:49 PM
People worry too much. ALL publicity is GOOD publicity.

Ok thats just stupid retarded. We're promoting a PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE! NOT Paris Hilton!

Any negative media coverage can bring down a Presidential candidate. Its happened again and again.

me3
10-23-2007, 09:50 PM
Is it just me, or am I missing the (sic) bloody V on the website?


I don't need your permission.
Whether it will change anything or not, I will voice my opinion. Get used to it.
And the site owner will keep his site the way it is, and you better get used to that.

Man, my ignore list has grown a lot today. :(

Jojo
10-23-2007, 09:50 PM
You know, I've seen it called a "bloody 'V' " dozens of times and just let it go, but it's really starting to bother me so I'm going to get this off my chest.

It is NOT a "bloody v." The drips are dripping PAINT, not blood.

The "V" stands for victory, victory over an oppressive government, which seems very appropriate considering current circumstances.

In the movie, people who oppose that oppression are seen hastily spray painting the Vs on walls and such. The paint drips.

A similar theme was used in the Science Fiction mini-series from the 80's called "V", and the short-lived TV series of the same name.

Similar themes have also been used in the past both in popular fiction and in real life. The letter "V" seems to resonate with people for some reason and is thus a powerful symbol. I think it works.

I know in the bgreater scheme of things most of this is probably unimportant. Like I said, I just had to get it off my chest.

Chris

Thank you for attempting to explain, I appreciate it.
But, it does look like blood to me and others. It really doesn't give me a positive feeling. But since the creator of this doesn't want to share creative ideas with others, as the creators of the NH newspaper ads have done, this is how it shall be. It's a pity.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:50 PM
Ok, and doesn't that denote an inherent problem with the V theme if I am the 500th person to argue the same exact thing?. Maybe that would suggest that there is something to what we are saying perhaps. We all can't be trolls.

There sure is... and I was about person 15 to bitch about it. I am a trailblazer, but I gave up quickly. :P If you cant beat em, join em. Im giving my first $100 that day. I am a very poor person, and I was trying to figure out when I would give my first of 2 $100 donations fro the entire campaign. Nov 5th inspired me, becaus eit made me feel like my $100 would count.


Do you know the website owner, that he is this obstinate?

I am pretty sure I know what board member it is. And he has softened the sight, by putting up a few other, non v related videos.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 09:51 PM
I love how none of these so-called Nov. 5 detractors have responded to my retort on the V theme, or 2 others that I read in other posts, particularly the one concerning that the V is spray painted, not bloody. I am all but 100% convinced that all of these guys are trolls.

paulitics
10-23-2007, 09:51 PM
I have seen a local news clip on youtube, where two paul supporters had V masks on, and I just slapped my head and thought.. IDIOTS!!!

But there is nothing that can be done about it.

sure there is, change the website to make it more about RP and less about V. That will go a long way. It may actually help raise donations because it will appeal to more people. Make it about freedom, the constitutution, Ron Paul.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:53 PM
I love how none of these so-called Nov. 5 detractors have responded to my retort on the V theme, or 2 others that I read in other posts, particularly the one concerning that the V is spray painted, not bloody. I am all but 100% convinced that all of these guys are trolls.

Alot of them have been here for a long time, they are concerned.

Ridiculous
10-23-2007, 09:53 PM
You know, I've seen it called a "bloody 'V' " dozens of times and just let it go, but it's really starting to bother me so I'm going to get this off my chest.

It is NOT a "bloody v." The drips are dripping PAINT, not blood.

The "V" stands for victory, victory over an oppressive government, which seems very appropriate considering current circumstances.

In the movie, people who oppose that oppression are seen hastily spray painting the Vs on walls and such. The paint drips.

A similar theme was used in the Science Fiction mini-series from the 80's called "V", and the short-lived TV series of the same name.

Similar themes have also been used in the past both in popular fiction and in real life. The letter "V" seems to resonate with people for some reason and is thus a powerful symbol. I think it works.

I know in the bgreater scheme of things most of this is probably unimportant. Like I said, I just had to get it off my chest.

Chris

Again, it is all about perception. It looks like a bloody fucking V. People who haven't seen it before will think it is a bloody V.

Why do you think red paint was used in the first place rather than pink or blue, because it looks like blood. It is more than obviously intended to resemble blood, it is a Vendetta....

Also, it is a play on the anarchy "A" symbol. Most main stream republicans aren't too fond of anarchists.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/all-anarchy.jpg

http://www.freewebs.com/vforvendettagallery/index-center.jpg

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:53 PM
sure there is, change the website to make it more about RP and less about V. That will go a long way. It may actually help raise donations because it will appeal to more people. Make it about freedom, the constitutution, Ron Paul.

it was not from the nov5 website

Exponent
10-23-2007, 09:53 PM
Does all of our marketing and advertising have to conform to a single style, and target a single demographic? I'm no marketing expert, but it seems pretty obvious that if you can successfully advertise to different demographics simultaneously, you do it. Sure, a lot of Paul's supporters are young. That doesn't mean that we already have all the young people in America as supporters. Not even close. Does promotion of the Nov. 5th money bomb with a style that is geared for younger people prevent others from promoting Ron Paul in different ways, in ways that are targeted to other audiences? No.

Additionally, what ever happened to the arguments supportive of the free market concept? If you don't think an idea is going to be effective, work on your own idea. It might turn out that both are effective, but in differing ways.

Unfortunately, some people have already decided that such an outcome is impossible, in the same way that people were absolutely sure that missing the $430,000 would be disastrous, or missing the $4 million October goal will be (even though the campaign has already said that they're not really expecting it). Even as serious as the future of this nation can be, I think people are taking some of this way too seriously, and getting way too stressed out about it, and it isn't helping much at all.

me3
10-23-2007, 09:54 PM
Any negative media coverage can bring down a Presidential candidate. Its happened again and again.
That is why RP HQ doesn't associate directly with us. So they have plausible deniability. The purpose of the grassroots is to be unrestrained, inspired and creative. It's not supposed to conform to the grand HQ mission precisely. If it was, this campaign would be months behind.

Dr. Paul can deny any involvement, endorsement or participation in this event. He's covered. Unless of course, more people on this forum would like to make it out to be a bigger deal than it is. In which case, you're actually feeding the fires, and in my humble opinion, bear some responsibility if it becomes a problem.

DeadheadForPaul
10-23-2007, 09:54 PM
I love how none of these so-called Nov. 5 detractors have responded to my retort on the V theme, or 2 others that I read in other posts, particularly the one concerning that the V is spray painted, not bloody. I am all but 100% convinced that all of these guys are trolls.

You're right. You've exposed us. Good work

All the money I've given, meetup meetings I went to, flyers I handed out, trips I made to see Dr. Paul speak, etc. were all part of a ploy to disrupt a fundraising event which was not even planned until over 3 months after I joined these forums. Several years ago, when I learned about Dr. Paul, I began formulating my plan to destroy his Presidential campaign from the inside should he ever choose to run in the future

But by God, you saw right through it all

Eric21ND
10-23-2007, 09:54 PM
We aren't trolls we are just concerned.

We do want you to raise cash every day for Paul. We just don't want Ron Paul to be associated with a violent comic book hero, or bleeding Vs that are upsidedown "anarchy As"

It screams fringe candidate.

We realize that it is too late to stop the 5th, most of us actually hope it does well with money.

We just hate the V association. It isn't needed.

I even like V for Vendetta and own it. But associating Paul with it, regardless of its message won't help him win a campaign for president.

The ones that keep beating a dead horse I'm sorry but they are trolls. The ones with legit concerns their suggestions have been received and implemented. The V video is on the bottom of the page and there are like 10 other videos promoting this donation now. Use the one you desire. There is also a disclaimer now pointing out this is only a grassroots effort. If you aren't happy with that you will NEVER be happy. This is going forward and anybody that doesn't jump on board at this point needs to get out of the way. I'm not on here to win friends, I'm on here to win Ron Paul the nomination.

Not to mention since this has NOTHING to do with the actual campaign Paul has complete deniability.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:55 PM
What I see happening, is already, somebody has noticed this chasm, and knows, if exploited, this place can get alot worse.

self-fulfilling prophecy.

If Hucks campaign noticed we were going to raise 1 million in one day, than the GOP chair knows this can cause a huge wedge if they can make it a disaster.

But I doubt they can.

justinc.1089
10-23-2007, 09:56 PM
Ok, and doesn't that denote an inherent problem with the V theme if I am the 500th person to argue the same exact thing?. Maybe that would suggest that there is something to what we are saying perhaps. We all can't be trolls.

And I don't believe in power trips, to not budge or compromise when you have so many people who are voicing their opinion against this, that think this could sink the campaign. Do you know the website owner, that he is this obstinate? It is to my understanding that some people who originally liked the idea, are seeing it as being a little more fringe now, because of the violent connotations.

Yes I was sadly one of the people on here pushing this trying to push everyone to organize quickly because I was caught in the excitement of this idea, and now I see its a terrible idea because I listened to the people saying it could bring down the campaign.

I ACTUALLY THOUGHT ABOUT THEIR OPINIONS

The people still for this are very much in the minority here. I think only one or two people making youtube videos are still for it, the website person, and maybe a couple of other people. The majority of people on here now seem very afraid of this going forward.

There is no reason why the date can't change. Its not like if you say "Don't donate on the 5th, everyone donate on whatever say the 28th of oct" that all the people signed up will decide not to donate. They will still donate and there will still be a big money day, WITHOUT ANY MEDIA BLOWBACK RISK.

Why won't you people listen to us? Do you really not care about Paul's campaign? I'm seriously wondering if the people that started this are involved with some other person's campaign and this is some kind of way to give us bad media coverage. I mean I can't comprehend why else you wouldn't listen to people that are on the same side as you, and why you would want to take risks that have no reason or purpose to be taken.

CCTelander
10-23-2007, 09:56 PM
Thank you for attempting to explain, I appreciate it.
But, it does look like blood to me and others. It really doesn't give me a positive feeling. But since the creator of this doesn't want to share creative ideas with others, as the creators of the NH newspaper ads have done, this is how it shall be. It's a pity.

No problem. I can see how anyone who hasn't seen the movie, or the many past uses of similar symbology could make that mistake.

I just thought it might be a good idea to correct the misconception.

Chris

madcat033
10-23-2007, 09:57 PM
I have also said the the same thing. How hard is it for someone to throw a little video together to try and make the 5th look worse than it is. Some people are trying to make it look like we are going to physically attack the government. We are fighting with pens not guns for this revolution. Don't let people distract you. I am giving on the fifth and I don't care what anyone makes of it.

I'm sure that any canidate could just as easily be misrepresented.

Uhh, any candidate can be misrepresented... but I don't think there's any misrepresentation on a bloody V. That's not exactly a misunderstanding. It's a bloody V with a quote that compares Ron Paul to a dangerous remedy.



I say all the people that are right about this issue should pull a Galt's Gulch and withdraw ourselves from further discussion. It is obvious that we're not changing any minds, regardless of the quality of our arguments.

Agreed. It's useless to debate with people who just say you are trolling, or trying to sabotage the event, or don't want Ron Paul to win.

Yes, I voiced my criticisms SOLELY because I feared it would harm Ron's campaign, so that makes me a troll and I want to sabotage him. Okay.

I agree with Brinck, there's no use debating because these people don't debate.



You know, I've seen it called a "bloody 'V' " dozens of times and just let it go, but it's really starting to bother me so I'm going to get this off my chest.

It is NOT a "bloody v." The drips are dripping PAINT, not blood.

The "V" stands for victory, victory over an oppressive government, which seems very appropriate considering current circumstances.

In the movie, people who oppose that oppression are seen hastily spray painting the Vs on walls and such. The paint drips.

A similar theme was used in the Science Fiction mini-series from the 80's called "V", and the short-lived TV series of the same name.

Similar themes have also been used in the past both in popular fiction and in real life. The letter "V" seems to resonate with people for some reason and is thus a powerful symbol. I think it works.

I know in the bgreater scheme of things most of this is probably unimportant. Like I said, I just had to get it off my chest.

Chris

Okay, so when Fox News shows a picture of a bloody V, just send them an email and I'm sure they'll promptly issue a primetime correction saying that it was actually just a "dripping paint V."



Ok, and doesn't that denote an inherent problem with the V theme if I am the 500th person to argue the same exact thing?. Maybe that would suggest that there is something to what we are saying perhaps. We all can't be trolls.

And I don't believe in power trips, to not budge or compromise when you have so many people who are voicing their opinion against this, that think this could sink the campaign. Do you know the website owner, that he is this obstinate? It is to my understanding that some people who originally liked the idea, are seeing it as being a little more fringe now, because of the violent connotations.

haha great point at the beginning. You'd think that if all these people are having long winded debates perhaps we should change the theme... jeeze.



Go for it.

Let it all out.

Just understand, at the end of the day, the V stays.

Oh, and it will get $805,000 in a day, if today were the 5th.

in 12 days, it will probably be up to 12,000

Not bad for an idea.

I hope they raise TEN MILLION on that day. I hope Ron raises MILLIONS on November 5th. I don't have a problem with the day, I don't have a problem with the goal of everyone donating on the same day. I just think it's stupid to associate bleeding V's and terrorism and fringe-ness with Ron Paul.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 09:57 PM
Again, it is all about perception. It looks like a bloody fucking V. People who haven't seen it before will think it is a bloody V.

Why do you think red paint was used in the first place rather than pink or blue, because it looks like blood.

Also, it is a play on the anarchy "A" symbol. Most main stream republicans aren't too fond of anarchists.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/all-anarchy.jpg

http://www.freewebs.com/vforvendettagallery/index-center.jpg

There's another $5 to my donation, I'm starting to get near $600 now, just keep putting up the nonsense and I'll keep ponying up.

P.S. - The level of reaching that you are doing here is synonymous with your name, no pun intended. You could just as easily compare the V symbol with the Zorro letter Z.

huchahucha
10-23-2007, 09:58 PM
What the...
I thought the big red V stood for "Vagina". I am so disappointed. I'm not donating now.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:58 PM
There is no reason why the date can't change.

Yes there is. It already has too much momentum. It did not happen easily. Look at the November 11 website. They have 60 subscribers.

You are nto going to turn the train around, so get on board, or get out of the way, becasue it is going to happen, on the 5th.

me3
10-23-2007, 09:58 PM
I hope they raise TEN MILLION on that day. I hope Ron raises MILLIONS on November 5th. I don't have a problem with the day, I don't have a problem with the goal of everyone donating on the same day. I just think it's stupid to associate bleeding V's and terrorism and fringe-ness with Ron Paul.
If they raise $10 million with the (sic) bloody Vs, do you want to give it all back?

paulitics
10-23-2007, 09:59 PM
That is why RP HQ doesn't associate directly with us. So they have plausible deniability. The purpose of the grassroots is to be unrestrained, inspired and creative. It's not supposed to conform to the grand HQ mission precisely. If it was, this campaign would be months behind.

Dr. Paul can deny any involvement, endorsement or participation in this event. He's covered. Unless of course, more people on this forum would like to make it out to be a bigger deal than it is. In which case, you're actually feeding the fires, and in my humble opinion, bear some responsibility if it becomes a problem.

yeah, but they are going to be accepting funds from this theme, this message. So he is involved, it would be like a truther convention raising money for RonPaul, or a stormfront rally, etc. Not that its wrong to me, it is just perceived as in poor taste for most people. Actually it scares the hell out of people.

Rudy had to return his donations from the 911 debacle from his grassrooters, remember? He had to do it to save face. So denying involvement only gets you so far.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 09:59 PM
What the...
I thought the big red V stood for "Vagina". I am so disappointed. I'm not donating now.

Boo yah!!!

Period blood!

silverhandorder
10-23-2007, 10:00 PM
It is so easy to unspin, this it not even funny. What the hell do they have to stand on. Ron Paul is being supported by revolutionaries that like bloody movies? If they spread the movie they will spread the idea.

DeadheadForPaul
10-23-2007, 10:01 PM
Headline: 'Ron Paul raises 1 million in one day - fund drive on wh1te supremac1st website - inspired by fictional terrorist named V"

CCTelander
10-23-2007, 10:02 PM
Again, it is all about perception. It looks like a bloody fucking V. People who haven't seen it before will think it is a bloody V.

Why do you think red paint was used in the first place rather than pink or blue, because it looks like blood. It is more than obviously intended to resemble blood, it is a Vendetta....

Also, it is a play on the anarchy "A" symbol. Most main stream republicans aren't too fond of anarchists.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/all-anarchy.jpg

http://www.freewebs.com/vforvendettagallery/index-center.jpg


I'm sorry, did I piss in your Corn Flakes this morning and not notice it? What's with all the hostility?

In any event, make of it what you will. I said my piece.

Chris

justinc.1089
10-23-2007, 10:02 PM
The ones that keep beating a dead horse I'm sorry but they are trolls. The ones with legit concerns their suggestions have been received and implemented. The V video is on the bottom of the page and there are like 10 other videos promoting this donation now. Use the one you desire. There is also a disclaimer now pointing out this is only a grassroots effort. If you aren't happy with that you will NEVER be happy. This is going forward and anybody that doesn't jump on board at this point needs to get out of the way. I'm not on here to win friends, I'm on here to win Ron Paul the nomination.

Not to mention since this has NOTHING to do with the actual campaign Paul has complete deniability.

Wow you sound totally stupid saying that.

ALL of our concerns are legit.

If there is still a SINGLE Vendetta video ANYWHERE on the internet associated with Ron Paul its a serious, serious problem because if the media finds it that could cause serious problems for Paul to deal with.

There is no reason the date can't be changed. Saying this is going forward and other things like that is all just hype, its not a reason the date can't change.

If you're here to win Paul the nomination then you need to LISTEN to the ACTUAL CAMPAIGN and meet THEIR GOALS NOT YOUR OWN. You also need to stop taking risks that have no logical reason to take.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, do you not understand this has serious possibly campaign ending media blowback potential?

WHY would you risk that? I'm busting my ass to try to get Paul elected and here you are using a violent fictional character and a date associated with that violent character to promote Paul!

Jojo
10-23-2007, 10:03 PM
No problem. I can see how anyone who hasn't seen the movie, or the many past uses of similar symbology could make that mistake.

I just thought it might be a good idea to correct the misconception.

Chris

So, in order to correctly perceive this marketing ploy, one would have to see the movie first. I can see the media making the same "mistake" I made.
Sure, Paul will overcome it, it's just not necessary to take this risk in my opinion.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 10:03 PM
Headline: 'Ron Paul raises 1 million in one day - fund drive on wh1te supremac1st website - inspired by fictional terrorist named V"


dammit.

who knew about the WN page. Maybe if you guys mention it a couple more thousand times you can make it a reality. You know, make sure the rumor becomes truth.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 10:03 PM
Headline: 'Ron Paul raises 1 million in one day - fund drive on wh1te supremac1st website - inspired by fictional terrorist named V"

Headline: "Ron Paul raises a meager $250,000 on Veterans day, only to later lose the election by playing it safe because it's grassroots supporters feared that the media might play rough".

kherty
10-23-2007, 10:03 PM
Thanks for those that have had the patience to post about this issue.

I didn't realize the creators of this website and campaign were not present on this forum. I would like to contact them privately, but I would hope if they were any sort of supporters, they should be encouraged to come on this forum and participate.

I'm not sure what the problem is with changing the video posted?

The issue isn't changing the date, but the imagery.

The more videos and things that reflect a "fringe-type" nature.....the more I'm sure you will see Ron Paul distance himself from the grassroots campaign. You will be making things more difficult for him.

Just think before you post!

PEACE!!!

:cool:

Ridiculous
10-23-2007, 10:04 PM
P.S. - The level of reaching that you are doing here is synonymous with your name, no pun intended. You could just as easily compare the V symbol with the Zorro letter Z.


It is not reaching.... V is an anarchist and the upside down V is a play on the anarchy A.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_vendetta

JS4Pat
10-23-2007, 10:04 PM
A whole lot of people bitching at me for bringing this up...

yet no one can tell me what we stand to gain from this.
It's intriguing. It will probably generate more interest (more money) than a November 11th date.

I was intrigued by it. I signed up and rented the movie again. :)

I think it is ok...

kahless
10-23-2007, 10:04 PM
No one is that stupid not to realize how damaging this is for the campaign. Supporters of this V thing are either completely insane or intentionally trying to damage the campaign. The later doing just as much damage since the media still is portaying Paul supporters as fringe crazies.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 10:05 PM
If there is still a SINGLE Vendetta video ANYWHERE on the internet associated with Ron Paul its a serious, serious problem because if the media finds it that could cause serious problems for Paul to deal with.


the media has paul on record saying he wants to take marching orders from al queada

they have him on record blaming america first for 9-11

they have him on record as an isolationist

they have him on record wanting to give drugs to addicts, and surrender to Iran

American
10-23-2007, 10:05 PM
Everyone who takes part in this hog wash needs to take it to the chat room, thats what this is you are TALKING about something that has been covered many times.

tfelice
10-23-2007, 10:05 PM
Poll

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=28254

Corydoras
10-23-2007, 10:05 PM
Speaking of movies, anybody remember in "Time Bandits," the guys at the end of the "Me and My Shadow" act?

silverhandorder
10-23-2007, 10:06 PM
In the end of the movie there is a peaceful revolution, the soldiers stand down and corrupt gov't kills it self. Let me ask you how can they spin this?

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 10:07 PM
Thanks for those that have had the patience to post about this issue.

I didn't realize the creators of this website and campaign were not present on this forum. I would like to contact them privately, but I would hope if they were any sort of supporters, they should be encouraged to come on this forum and participate.

I'm not sure what the problem is with changing the video posted?

The issue isn't changing the date, but the imagery.

The more videos and things that reflect a "fringe-type" nature.....the more I'm sure you will see Ron Paul distance himself from the grassroots campaign. You will be making things more difficult for him.

Just think before you post!

PEACE!!!

:cool:

kherty, I mean this with all respect, and welcome to the forums, but the guy will not change his mind. He has already softened the sight, but the v videos will stay.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 10:08 PM
It is not reaching.... V is an anarchist and the upside down V is a play on the anarchy A.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_vendetta

Your source for this? The character V was the equivalent of the people who took muskets and chased the damned red coats (killed a few thousand of them too if I remember) out of their country. I do think an equivalent to the anarchist term was applied to the original revolutionaries.

P.S. - The red stripes on the American flag symbolize blood shed in the name of Liberty. Shall we stop putting out videos of Ron Paul with the American flag on them because it suggests violence done against the British government 200 plus years ago?

madcat033
10-23-2007, 10:11 PM
There sure is... and I was about person 15 to bitch about it. I am a trailblazer, but I gave up quickly. :P If you cant beat em, join em. Im giving my first $100 that day. I am a very poor person, and I was trying to figure out when I would give my first of 2 $100 donations fro the entire campaign. Nov 5th inspired me, becaus eit made me feel like my $100 would count.



I am pretty sure I know what board member it is. And he has softened the sight, by putting up a few other, non v related videos.

I'm not trying to beat anyone. I already joined. I think this is a great idea. I just think it would be a lot better if it didn't seem so fucking tin foil hat and fringe. I think it would be better without bloody V's.





I love how none of these so-called Nov. 5 detractors have responded to my retort on the V theme, or 2 others that I read in other posts, particularly the one concerning that the V is spray painted, not bloody. I am all but 100% convinced that all of these guys are trolls.

That's not a retort. Who cares if the V is spray painted? What is that supposed to mean? Are you gonna tell Fox that? It looks like blood. It looks scary. It looks intimidating. It looks fringe.

Good luck telling all the media outlets that "it's only spray paint." They don't even have to say it's a bloody V. They can just show the picture and not say anything. Do you think the average person will say "oh, a spray painted V!"?

No. They're going to see a bloody V. Your point is useless.



Does all of our marketing and advertising have to conform to a single style, and target a single demographic? I'm no marketing expert, but it seems pretty obvious that if you can successfully advertise to different demographics simultaneously, you do it. Sure, a lot of Paul's supporters are young. That doesn't mean that we already have all the young people in America as supporters. Not even close. Does promotion of the Nov. 5th money bomb with a style that is geared for younger people prevent others from promoting Ron Paul in different ways, in ways that are targeted to other audiences? No.

Additionally, what ever happened to the arguments supportive of the free market concept? If you don't think an idea is going to be effective, work on your own idea. It might turn out that both are effective, but in differing ways.


I'm no marketing expert either, but it seems to me that the number 1 goal of advertising is to NOT put off people.

The "free market" has nothing to do with this. This isn't about competing to see which event is better. If the media splashes pictures of bloody V's and shows the website, they could make him look very fringe, very unelectable. Where does your free market point come in?




You're right. You've exposed us. Good work

All the money I've given, meetup meetings I went to, flyers I handed out, trips I made to see Dr. Paul speak, etc. were all part of a ploy to disrupt a fundraising event which was not even planned until over 3 months after I joined these forums. Several years ago, when I learned about Dr. Paul, I began formulating my plan to destroy his Presidential campaign from the inside should he ever choose to run in the future

But by God, you saw right through it all

Yeah seriously. The funny part is, I'm on videos on ronpaul2008.com. I'm his student campaign officer for UCLA. I was interviewed by CNN and put on their website when I chalked UNH. I did the Los Angeles walk for Ron Paul and I got interviewed AGAIN. By the same guy who interviewed me in New Hampshire, and he remembered me!

But clearly I am a troll.



The ones that keep beating a dead horse I'm sorry but they are trolls. The ones with legit concerns their suggestions have been received and implemented. The V video is on the bottom of the page and there are like 10 other videos promoting this donation now. Use the one you desire. There is also a disclaimer now pointing out this is only a grassroots effort. If you aren't happy with that you will NEVER be happy. This is going forward and anybody that doesn't jump on board at this point needs to get out of the way. I'm not on here to win friends, I'm on here to win Ron Paul the nomination.

Not to mention since this has NOTHING to do with the actual campaign Paul has complete deniability.

I made legitimate points. I have legitimate concerns. No one has refuted them.

You think any of the news outlets are going to give a shit if there is only ONE video that has a V? You know that will be the only one they report on. Didn't you ever see the story on ABC's coverage of the iowa straw poll? They had a video that showed tons of Ron Paul supporters, outnumbering mitt romney by a 10 to 1 margin. ABC ran two photos with their coverage of the straw poll... one showing a bunch of mitt supporters, and one showing a lone ron paul supporter.

Fox isn't going to say "well, they had like 10 videos and only one had a bloody V on the front." They're going to say "OMG LOOK AT THIS!" and show all this creepy bloody V's and terrorist fringe conspiracy shit. Even if they aren't actively out to bury Ron Paul, it's much more sensationalist.

I'm not on here to win friends either. What i'm saying is, the V shit makes ron's chances of winning the nomination go down. Not up.



If they raise $10 million with the (sic) bloody Vs, do you want to give it all back?

No. I never said anything of the sort. I don't even personally care about the V shit. I'm just saying it hurts the campaign more than it helps.

Ridiculous
10-23-2007, 10:11 PM
Your source for this? The character V was the equivalent of the people who took muskets and chased the damned red coats (killed a few thousand of them too if I remember) out of their country. I do think an equivalent to the anarchist term was applied to the original revolutionaries.

P.S. - The red stripes on the American flag symbolize blood shed in the name of Liberty. Shall we stop putting out videos of Ron Paul with the American flag on them because it suggests violence done against the British government 200 plus years ago?

Again, it is all about perception.

justinc.1089
10-23-2007, 10:12 PM
the media has paul on record saying he wants to take marching orders from al queada

they have him on record blaming america first for 9-11

they have him on record as an isolationist

they have him on record wanting to give drugs to addicts, and surrender to Iran

WHAT!!!

They do not! Have you lost your mind?! Paul did not say those things, but the media tried to make out as if he did, and he backed up what he actually said about BLOWBACK, NON-INTERVENTION, and to END THE WAR ON DRUGS.

And I have yet to see why Nov.5th is so damn important, or why it can't be changed. Changing it just requires an email to be sent out saying "Due to concerns about the current donation date we have changed the donation date to whatever" and the problem is solved. The Vendetta stuff is even easier to solve because it can just be taken off the internet.

me3
10-23-2007, 10:13 PM
I'm going to appeal to everyone, please let this thread die so we don't have this ugly scar constantly floating on the front page of the forum.

It's starting to make the forum look bad and turn off a lot of people.

And if you must protest, please protest to the site owner through the contact form or by forum PM.

From the perspective of being image conscious this already looks really bad to THIS community, and those are the people Dr. Paul is counting on.

Whatever your perspective, please just let it go.

kahless
10-23-2007, 10:13 PM
kherty, I mean this with all respect, and welcome to the forums, but the guy will not change his mind. He has already softened the sight, but the v videos will stay.

Perhaps he has taken the videos down since I j just checked www.thisnovember5th.com site and I did not see any videos. The site looked fine to me.

Unless there another site that has the kooky videos?

jake
10-23-2007, 10:14 PM
You know, I've seen it called a "bloody 'V' " dozens of times and just let it go, but it's really starting to bother me so I'm going to get this off my chest.

It is NOT a "bloody v." The drips are dripping PAINT, not blood.

Chris


The paint in the movie symbolizes blood. that is why it's red. :o

dumb movie anyways.

Corydoras
10-23-2007, 10:16 PM
Perhaps he has taken the videos down since I j just checked www.thisnovember5th.com site and I did not see any videos.

Scroll down, down, down.

justinc.1089
10-23-2007, 10:18 PM
kherty, I mean this with all respect, and welcome to the forums, but the guy will not change his mind. He has already softened the sight, but the v videos will stay.

I don't see where the site has been softened at all. The only difference I see is the Ron Paul revolution banner is up in the corner now. And that slogan itself is not all that marketable really in politics.

I am really wondering if this is not someone doing this that wants to hurt Paul and wants someone else to win. I mean either thats the situation or the people doing this are extremely stupid and naive about politics and the media.

NewEnd
10-23-2007, 10:18 PM
the first and fifth videos are v related.



Changing it just requires an email to be sent out saying "Due to concerns about the current donation date we have changed the donation date to whatever" and the problem is solved. The Vendetta stuff is even easier to solve because it can just be taken off the internet.

Not gonna happen.

And thats the last of my posting here, I agree with me3. So say what you will to me, but I am done with this issue.

BTW, this issue came up in May, regarding the rEVOLution banner. Many people argued fervently it was a terrible idea. That the red LOVE was dumb, or that the word revolution would scare too many Americans, and paint paul as a loony anarchist. Go ahead and go deep into the threads, you will find many threads about it.

Please think about it for a while.


I don't see where the site has been softened at all. The only difference I see is the Ron Paul revolution banner is up in the corner now. And that slogan itself is not all that marketable really in politics.

tehn you did not see it a week ago when it was only V themed videos.

Jojo
10-23-2007, 10:18 PM
Poll

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=28254


View Poll Results: Should the November 5th Site Be Redesigned?
Yes 26 60.47%
No 17 39.53%

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 10:18 PM
Again, it is all about perception.

You know something, if it is all about perception, then this country is doomed and I might as well pack my bags and head back to Ireland in the hopes that they can continue to resist the EU. If perception trumps truth, the purpose of this campaign will die, whether Ron Paul is elected or not. People ruled by perception don't get behind real change, if that were untrue, Ronald Reagan would have gotten rid of the Income Tax and ended the tyranny of the Federal Reserve Bank, assuming that JFK's death wouldn't have prompted it sooner.

jake
10-23-2007, 10:20 PM
You know something, if it is all about perception, then this country is doomed and I might as well pack my bags and head back to Ireland in the hopes that they can continue to resist the EU. If perception trumps truth, the purpose of this campaign will die, whether Ron Paul is elected or not. People ruled by perception don't get behind real change, if that were untrue, Ronald Reagan would have gotten rid of the Income Tax and ended the tyranny of the Federal Reserve Bank, assuming that JFK's death wouldn't have prompted it sooner.

you are a loon.

speciallyblend
10-23-2007, 10:20 PM
These threads about nov 5 are getting boring and dull and to be honest downright dumb.You cant make everyone happy. Everyone here is assuming too much on either side,JUST FREAKING DONATE GEEEZZ. I'm beginning to think you guys/gals should work for the new york post or the grocery mags. NO MORE DRAMA ,its getting old.......

Ridiculous
10-23-2007, 10:20 PM
I mean either thats the situation or the people doing this are extremely stupid and naive about politics and the media. ;)

Jojo
10-23-2007, 10:22 PM
:
Originally Posted by NewEnd
the media has paul on record saying he wants to take marching orders from al queada

they have him on record blaming america first for 9-11

they have him on record as an isolationist

they have him on record wanting to give drugs to addicts, and surrender to Iran


WHAT!!!

..

me3
10-23-2007, 10:22 PM
And thats the last of my posting here, I agree with me3. So say what you will to me, but I am done with this issue.
Thanks, and I'm outta here too. This is such a turnoff when inspiration turns into harassment.


BTW, this issue came up in May, regarding the rEVOLution banner. Many people argued fervently it was a terrible idea. That the red LOVE was dumb, or that the word revolution would scare too many Americans, and paint paul as a loony anarchist. Go ahead and go deep into the threads, you will find many threads about it.

Please think about it for a while.
Even HQ wasn't fond of it. Now it is an icon. How soon we forget.

madcat033
10-23-2007, 10:22 PM
It's intriguing. It will probably generate more interest (more money) than a November 11th date.

I was intrigued by it. I signed up and rented the movie again. :)

I think it is ok...

I don't want to change the date. We just need to get rid of the imagery.

kylejack
10-23-2007, 10:22 PM
Oh look, another stupid thread on this. Give it up. No minds will be changed on either side.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 10:23 PM
you are a loon.

Not bad, short but pointless, chalk up another $5 for the November 5 donation. I'm going to shoot the owner of the site a nice little email of encouragement in keeping the design exactly how it is.

I'm bowing out now, you can't reason with the true Ron Paul supporters, their logic is beyond question. :rolleyes:

CRay28
10-23-2007, 10:23 PM
I was born in 1928. I am a Master Cabinet Maker and a retired classroom teacher in innercity scholls in L.A., retiring after 20 years service.

The study of history is my forte. The motion picture "V for Vendetta" presents a story line with a theme that appears in history over and over again. Whether we call the despot: king, emperor, pope or president, the despot realizes the masses, the mob, the citizens must be controlled. They must be manipulated for the welfare and the safety and ongoing profitabilty of the despot and his vast crew.

If anyone finds it beneath their personal dignity, and must find fault with the gimmicks and props of "V", I would point out it is not the imperfect medium that is important. It is the message contained within the medium.

Having lived a long time enjoying reading nonfiction, I now stand on a pyramid of studied volumes and the view is good. I have lived as an observer, student and participant longer than most of you have been alive.

Do you want to place Ron Paul in the White House? Do you want a return to constitutional law?
Do not be afraid of making a "Grand Gesture". Focus our cause on a point already made for us, "Who will remember the fifth of November", history will!; if we focus on this first battle and recognize the decensionists amongst us.

Strom
10-23-2007, 10:23 PM
http://thisnovember11th.com

One problem with this site - if I open it in a maximized window, the "click here to fill in your email" field and the "I am a patriot" button don't show up. I had no idea how to sign up until I opened it in a smaller window. The space was just blank when the window was maximized. Perhaps that's why you haven't had many people sign up?

I'm running IE 7, and my screen resolution is 1680x1050.

Is anyone else having this issue?

kherty
10-23-2007, 10:24 PM
Perception unfortunately plays a huge part in political races. Voters choose candidates for many different reasons.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard from political analysts that Romney "looks" like a president and he is so "presidential."

WTF! MSM and the American public is so hung up on appearance....not ability.

I look at the political race like this:

Guiliani, Romney, and Thompson are like the "popular" kids in school. People will vote for them because they are "cool" and they want to vote for somebody that their friends are voting for. In reality, they don't bring much to the table, but with name recognition, they take their races for granted.

Paul is like the smart "nerdy" kid. None of the other candidates want the public to hear what he has to say...and keep laughing and poking fun at him. He needs his supporters to get his name out there. He's got the tools and the know-how, but he isn't given the same amount of limelight as the other candidates.

We need to support Ron and show the public that there is more to being President than being "cool."

Jojo
10-23-2007, 10:25 PM
I'm going to appeal to everyone, please let this thread die so we don't have this ugly scar constantly floating on the front page of the forum.

It's starting to make the forum look bad and turn off a lot of people.

Whatever your perspective, please just let it go.

I think it needs to stay right here, as proof that a lot of people didn't like it and it doesn't represent all Ron Paul supporters.

Corydoras
10-23-2007, 10:26 PM
Welcome CRay28. I'm sorry you happened to come into this forum at this particularly messy moment. Thank you for participating, and I hope to see you again. We need people with maturity around here.

rs3515
10-23-2007, 10:39 PM
I don't want to change the date. We just need to get rid of the imagery.

madcat, contact me privately.

Jojo
10-23-2007, 10:39 PM
I was born in 1928. I am a Master Cabinet Maker and a retired classroom teacher in innercity scholls in L.A., retiring after 20 years service.

The study of history is my forte. The motion picture "V for Vendetta" presents a story line with a theme that appears in history over and over again. Whether we call the despot: king, emperor, pope or president, the despot realizes the masses, the mob, the citizens must be controlled. They must be manipulated for the welfare and the safety and ongoing profitabilty of the despot and his vast crew.

If anyone finds it beneath their personal dignity, and must find fault with the gimmicks and props of "V", I would point out it is not the imperfect medium that is important. It is the message contained within the medium.

Having lived a long time enjoying reading nonfiction, I now stand on a pyramid of studied volumes and the view is good. I have lived as an observer, student and participant longer than most of you have been alive.

Do you want to place Ron Paul in the White House? Do you want a return to constitutional law?
Do not be afraid of making a "Grand Gesture". Focus our cause on a point already made for us, "Who will remember the fifth of November", history will!; if we focus on this first battle and recognize the decensionists amongst us.

The theme appeals to you, that's great. I'm talking about those who have not seen the movie. Besides, the Revolution is well under way already. No violent imagery needed. Not worth the risk.

rs3515
10-23-2007, 10:40 PM
I think it needs to stay right here, as proof that a lot of people didn't like it and it doesn't represent all Ron Paul supporters.

jojo, please contact me privately.

speciallyblend
10-23-2007, 10:41 PM
SARCASM, We can not do any fund raising for the date Ron Paul is on Leno? Why you ask? because Tom Cruise will be on the show and then the media will relate Ron Paul to scientology because his supporters gave money to Ron Paul on the same day Tom Cruise was on the Tonight show,sounds as logical as the other threads about nov 5th geez no more drama

Duckman
10-23-2007, 10:44 PM
It's obvious the November 5 thing is going to happen, but I think it will be more damaging to the campaign for it to happen than if NOBODY donated ANY money to EITHER moneybomb.

madcat033
10-23-2007, 10:45 PM
I was born in 1928. I am a Master Cabinet Maker and a retired classroom teacher in innercity scholls in L.A., retiring after 20 years service.

The study of history is my forte. The motion picture "V for Vendetta" presents a story line with a theme that appears in history over and over again. Whether we call the despot: king, emperor, pope or president, the despot realizes the masses, the mob, the citizens must be controlled. They must be manipulated for the welfare and the safety and ongoing profitabilty of the despot and his vast crew.

If anyone finds it beneath their personal dignity, and must find fault with the gimmicks and props of "V", I would point out it is not the imperfect medium that is important. It is the message contained within the medium.

Having lived a long time enjoying reading nonfiction, I now stand on a pyramid of studied volumes and the view is good. I have lived as an observer, student and participant longer than most of you have been alive.

Do you want to place Ron Paul in the White House? Do you want a return to constitutional law?
Do not be afraid of making a "Grand Gesture". Focus our cause on a point already made for us, "Who will remember the fifth of November", history will!; if we focus on this first battle and recognize the decensionists amongst us.

Okay, unfortunately for you, mainstream americans aren't history majors. They're not going to understand the symbolism, or the metaphors, or whatever.

They're going to see a bloody V, and they're gonna be turned off.

CRay28
10-23-2007, 10:57 PM
The theme appeals to you, that's great. I'm talking about those who have not seen the movie. Besides, the Revolution is well under way already. No violent imagery needed. Not worth the risk.

75% of the people did not support the American Revolution, only 25% did support it and two of those were my ancestors. After the war was won the returning American soldiers found it incumbent upon them to chastise the slackers and malingerers. Many were driven north into Canada.
If you have not seen the movie I suggest you quit speaking about those who have not seen the movie. You speak for yourself.

American
10-23-2007, 11:00 PM
Okay, unfortunately for you, mainstream americans aren't history majors. They're not going to understand the symbolism, or the metaphors, or whatever.

They're going to see a bloody V, and they're gonna be turned off.

I see they are still letting you post, I wish you would just leave on your own. Speak for yourself about history fucko. and ita a red V not a bloody V I'm sure you will be the one to point out "NO, thats blood"

madcat033
10-23-2007, 11:07 PM
I see they are still letting you post, I wish you would just leave on your own. Speak for yourself about history fucko. and ita a red V not a bloody V I'm sure you will be the one to point out "NO, thats blood"

It's not about whether I think it is blood or not. Go show it to your average voter, and see what they think.

kahless
10-23-2007, 11:08 PM
All they need to do is remove the top and bottom video.

They may get contributions through that site but allot of people will misunderstand that would have donated and may not donate. This even though these clowns have no connection to the official campaign. They should be asking themselves what is more important the love for this friggin movie or the good of the campaign.

It is so obvious why they cannot see this. Here are people that are intelligent enough to create and produce the site-videos. But they cannot see how foolish and damaging it might be by those who will very easily exploit it for the ignorant.

Their real intentions are very suspect.

American
10-23-2007, 11:12 PM
It's not about whether I think it is blood or not. Go show it to your average voter, and see what they think.

You sure assume alot, Nov 5th, saying what the American public knowledge of history is now you are speaking for them as to what they think the V would look like.


The only thing you can do is speak for yourself, and you have said your piece this isnt going to change even if we wanted for it to change its in motion now. If you really are a Ron Paul supporter then lets not create problems that dont exist, my guess is your not here to support Ron Paul. Prove me wrong and drop it. This has been covered already. thx

me3
10-23-2007, 11:17 PM
It's not about whether I think it is blood or not. Go show it to your average voter, and see what they think.
Who are you, Frank Luntz?

leglock
10-23-2007, 11:19 PM
There's a reason Frank Luntz is succesful...

Jojo
10-23-2007, 11:27 PM
75% of the people did not support the American Revolution, only 25% did support it and two of those were my ancestors. After the war was won the returning American soldiers found it incumbent upon them to chastise the slackers and malingerers. Many were driven north into Canada.

Is that a threat? this conversation has taken a very strange turn..


If you have not seen the movie I suggest you quit speaking about those who have not seen the movie. You speak for yourself.

I am speaking for myself. So are many others on here. And they are not heard.
I do hope that the Nov5 will be a succes, with or without (perceived) bloody V.
My dissappointment is with the rudeness of some of those defending the V and the lack of a good explanation of why the V is a good idea. I have never experienced that on here, this division.

hells_unicorn
10-23-2007, 11:27 PM
There's a reason Frank Luntz is succesful...

Yeah, stupid people give him money to collect more from other stupid people, it's the same reason that our government is so successful.

@JoJo - Did you read my post regarding the Catholic angle on the history regarding Guy Fawkes. It's one of the reasons I am sending money on Nov. 5th, it is a large voting block, and based on my anecdotal experiences many of my Catholic liberal friends loved the hell out of that movie. Many of these pledges probably happened in part because of people like me being moved by that movie.

davidhperry
10-23-2007, 11:28 PM
I'm afraid we are at an impasse. Even though people don't agree with each other, stop acting like babies and do away with the name-calling. That's the worst deal about this whole thing and it needs to stop now. If you can't convince someone of something without cursing them out then you've already lost. It's disrespectful, demeaning, and it does nothing to advance the objectives of this campaign.

CRay28
10-23-2007, 11:35 PM
The use of the movie itself is simply an opportunity to capatilize on the name/ideal recognition for V for Vendetta. It will reach more of the disenchanted and angry than you can imagine, I've seen that first hand.

The context itself is also extremely useful as it shows a society that has been oppressed by it's government in the name of security and safety. Starting to sound familiar?

I've seen alot of posts about the implied threat involved in this and I see the validity in that. The point I think your missing is the intentional implied threat. The ability to generate this amount of money on one day, combined with the movie's implications say, "We are united and we've had enough".

As for what the media will spin this into, who cares. Since when are we responsible for their lies?

"You really think that blowing up Parlimant is going to make this country a better place?"
"There's no certainty, only opportunity."
"People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people."
"And your going to make that happen by blowing up a building?"
" The building is a symbol as is the act of destroying it. Symbols are given power by people. Alone a symbol is meaningless but with enough people, blowing up a building can change the world."

What part of the foregoing don't you understand? Be specific.

JimDude
10-23-2007, 11:54 PM
i think this fear that the media will spin this thing is unfounded. in the end, it only get us more attention and money.

What could the media possibly say about it? Ron Paul supporters donate 10 million but it doesnt count because it has V references.

I dont have a job, but Im still gonna be donating 100 dollars on Nov. 5th