The Koch Bros. Love Herman Cain & Hate Ron Paul

[bobbyw24]

What the hell are the Koch brothers thinking?

When you compare Ron Paul to Herman Cain, the choice is obvious. Congressman Paul says, let's start by bringing U.S. troops home from overseas to help reduce the budget deficit and shift priorities to Americans. He is like that on every issue. He is always about details and specifics He doesn't talk in generalities such as "Well I'm a great manager", like Cain does. Everybody says that, from Mitt Romney to Rudy Giuliani. Who needs more of that?

Congressman Paul is also more principled. You would never see Congressman Paul, as a libertarian, ever say that the food stamp program is a good program. And it appears he has a different view about the Fed, then does the former Fed insider Cain.

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2011/03/on-koch-supported-herman-cain.html

[Sola_Fide]

Wow.

Just wow...

[NewRightLibertarian]

They obviously aren't looking to end the Federal Reserve or institute any libertarian reforms that are anti-Empire or against corporate interests.

[JohnEngland]

In fairness, the Koch people never said anything about "loving" Cain and "hating" Ron. In fact, in the linked article, they don't say anything! It's just a blogger's opinions.

Cain has been invited to some events. So what? Perhaps the Koch people, being successful business men, wanted to hear from another successful business man, which Cain certainly is.

Now don't mistake my defending here as advocacy of Cain. Far from it. I'd just rather not see libertarians join the ridiculous and unjustified Koch-bashing of the far-left.

The Kochs clearly articulated the problems in America, including the distortions in the market by Washington, which forces business (such as theirs) to participate in the bubbles.

Update: Here's the aforementioned articulation of the problems, in a recent WSJ article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704288304576170974226083178.html

[Koz]

They can control Cain, nobody controls Dr. Paul.

Well, maybe Mrs. Paul.

[Inkblots]

Now don't mistake my defending here as advocacy of Cain. Far from it. I'd just rather not see libertarians join the ridiculous and unjustified Koch-bashing of the far-left.

Hear, hear! It's fundamentally unhelpful to personalize basic policy arguments. Let's leave those tactics to those without any sound arguments to stand on.

[falconplayer11]

Herman Cain is barely even a conservative, let alone a libertarian.

The Koch brothers are not much better.

[t0rnado]

Cain has less experience than Obama. He's not going to be winning anything in the next two years.

[FrankRep]

The Koch Bros. Love Herman Cain & Hate Ron Paul

Where do the Kochs say they that Hate Ron Paul?

[Brian4Liberty]

Cain seems to be the right-wing mirror image of Obama: no voting record, will probably be a puppet for Wall St. and the war-mongers, and the novelty of not being a white guy.

[Chester Copperpot]

I like how at :52 seconds in the video he is blaming the "liberals" for the new world order.. what a dope... meanwhile this guy worked for the very creature that finances said new world order...

jackasss

[sailingaway]

Cain doesn't want an audit of the fed and was a past Chair of the Federal REserve Kansas City branch (see my sig for citations.) My understanding is they have a 'guy' on the board of the fEd and a very different idea to them than what we have.

[daviddee]

...

[Reason]

Who the f**k is Herman Cain?

[sailingaway]

In your personal life do you dislike people? How about choosing not to associate with someone because of who they associate with?

If the Koch's "hate Ron Paul" could it be they just do not like him? Or how about they dislike someone he associates with (Lew)?

You can not assume someone is anti-liberty by who they choose to associate with, who they choose to endorse, etc. in the face of their other pro-liberty endeavors.

They have always been more proFed and globalist.

[Matt Collins]

Who the f**k is Herman Cain?
Herman Cain, who is also a shill for and former employee of the Federal Reserve, has come out on record of saying that "there is no need to audit the Federal Reserve"...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caeNXivEGEg&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiAkeFJXwUk&feature=player_embedded

[axiomata]

I've got that blogged bookmarked. Some good posts but the author tends to get the vapors when it comes to the Kochs.

google search for Koch on economicpolicyjournal.com (http://www.google.com/search?q=economicpolicyjournal&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=eeH&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&q=%20site%3Aeconomicpolicyjournal.com%20koch&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=89e96c95c947f3f0&pf=p&pdl=3000)

[EndDaFed]

The Koch's became wealthy beyond measure thanks to patent monopoly. Their version of libertarianism is what ever makes them more bank. Are you really that surprised?

[FrankRep]

The Koch's became wealthy beyond measure thanks to patent monopoly. Their version of libertarianism is what ever makes them more bank. Are you really that surprised?

Those Evil Free Market Capitalists!!!



Koch Industries, Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_Industries) is an American private energy conglomerate based in Wichita, Kansas, with subsidiaries involved in manufacturing, trading and investments. Koch also owns Invista, Georgia-Pacific, Flint Hills Resources, Koch Pipeline, Koch Fertilizer, Koch Minerals and Matador Cattle Company.

Koch companies are involved in core industries such as the manufacturing, refining and distribution of petroleum, chemicals, energy, fiber, intermediates and polymers, minerals, fertilizers, pulp and paper, chemical technology equipment, ranching, finance, commodities trading, as well as other ventures and investments.

[EndDaFed]

Those Evil Free Market Capitalists!!!

I'm for free markets. Save your bullshit for someone else.

[FrankRep]

I'm for free markets. Save your bullshit for someone else.

You're the one attacking the Koch Family and Koch Industries, Inc.

[EndDaFed]

You're the one attacking the Koch Family and Koch Industries, Inc.

If you wish to support corporate welfare queens than that is your folly.

Oh looky. They applied for government money from Obama's health care plan.

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/provisions/retirement/states/ks.html


The Affordable Care Act creates a new program called the Early Retiree Reinsurance Program to help address this challenge that employers and older employees are facing. The Early Retiree Reinsurance Program provides $5 billion in financial assistance to employers and unions to help them maintain coverage for early retirees age 55 and older who are not yet eligible for Medicare.

HHS has approved the following sponsors from Kansas. More applications are being approved each day.
...
Koch Industries, Inc.
...

In Alaska Koch Industries asked Governor Palin to bailout their failing oil refinery.

http://www.andrewhalcro.com/permafrost_friday_the_kochtopus_in_alaska

Okay so they need government help to pull some oil out of the ground. What about paper?


In 2006, Koch Industries acquired pulp and paper giant Georgia-Pacific for a $21-billion cash payment, allowing the Koch brothers to tap into a whole new area of government largesse: the ability to log public forests for private gain and have taxpayers cover the operating costs. Not only can companies like Georgia-Pacific, which is the world's leading manufacturer of paper products, exploit a publicly-shared resource without sharing the profits, but the U.S. Forestry Service subsidizes them to do it by forcing taxpayers to fund the construction of new logging roads that provide loggers with access to virgin growth—a nice welfare arrangement for the industry that costs taxpayers over $1 billion a year.

"Private logging of America's National Forests is a heavily subsidized form of corporate welfare," wrote Scott Silver, founder and executive director of Wild Wilderness, a conservation watchdog, at the time of the Georgia-Pacific's sale to Koch Industries. "Logging companies such as Georgia-Pacific strip lands bare, destroy vast acreages and pay only a small fee to the federal government in proportion to what they take from the public."


http://www.observer.com/2010/slideshow/131739/logging

Well isn't that special. They get the equivalent of 1/3 of NASA's budget each year in perks for their paper mills. Ok so they are not so good when it comes to welfare. What about property rights?

Oh looky they got their pipeline built by using government force via eminent domain to steal people's property. That is really principled of them. How nice. I guess that was okay because those people were just slaves.


But not all property rights are created equal. Koch Industries oil pipeline recently built in Minnesota shows that Charles Koch does not see an is anything wrong with the government confiscating private property, as long as he stands to make a profit. Completed in 2008, the 304-mile line now carries crude oil from the Canadian border to a Koch Industries refinery near the Twin Cities area via a two-foot-wide pipe. Company PR execs pitched the pipeline as a public benefit project, as it would increase Minnesota's gasoline supply. But the 1,000-plus landowners who were forced to handover their private property so that Koch Industries could run its pipeline didn't quite see it that way. "People's rights were violated, and they never got their due process," a farmer whose fields were going to be cut in two by the pipeline told a newspaper in 2007. "It's wrong. People's property is one of the most important things to their livelihood."

Getty Images

http://www.observer.com/2010/slideshow/131739/eminent-domain


There you have it folks. Libertarian in name only. Actions are everything.

[BRG253]

The Kochs are operating within the system they're stuck with. Them accepting corporate wellfare is no different than a Ron Paul supporter accepting a federal student loan or social security. They oppose the existence of such programs, but as long as the programs exist, they have to participate in order to compete with the other firms. It's not that complicated.

[EndDaFed]

The Kochs are operating within the system they're stuck with. Them accepting corporate wellfare is no different than a Ron Paul supporter accepting a federal student loan or social security. They oppose the existence of such programs, but as long as the programs exist, they have to participate in order to compete with the other firms. It's not that complicated.

You can't be a libertarian and hold a given set of principles then live your life in a way that constantly violates them. Firstly no one will take you seriously and they shouldn't because you decided that your values are not even worthy of upholding in your own life. Your actions discredit your values. People generally don't give a shit about what someone says and consider actions more important.

[FrankRep]

You can't be a libertarian and hold a given set of principles then live your life in a way that constantly violates them. Firstly no one will take you seriously and they shouldn't because you decide that your values are not even worthy of upholding in your own life.

It's the I'm More Libertarian Than You! Argument. I see.

[EndDaFed]

It's the I'm More Libertarian Than You! Argument. I see.

No, it's the basic requirement of being a libertarian. If you don't live your values you don't really value them. It's that simple. You can keep defending a thief who used government force to steal property from 1000 individuals. If that is who you would like to associate your values with then so be it.

[FrankRep]

No, it's the basic requirement of being a libertarian. If you don't live your values you don't really value them. It's that simple. You can keep defending a thief who used government force to steal property from 1000 individuals. If that is who you would like to associate your values with then so be it.

No, it's not "that simple." This "pure" Libertarian debate is silly and downright self-destructive.

[EndDaFed]

No, it's not "that simple." This "pure" Libertarian debate is silly and downright self-destructive.

Simple question. Is using government force to steal 1000 properties in order to build a pipeline wrong? Yes or no.

[marc1888]

They can control Cain, nobody controls Dr. Paul.

Well, maybe Mrs. Paul.

This is exactly what its about.

[South Park Fan]

The Kochs are operating within the system they're stuck with. Them accepting corporate wellfare is no different than a Ron Paul supporter accepting a federal student loan or social security. They oppose the existence of such programs, but as long as the programs exist, they have to participate in order to compete with the other firms. It's not that complicated.

I think the difference is that accepting student loans or social security is simply repossessing property already stolen by the government. That pipeline on the other hand needed the government to commit further theft in order for it to be built.

[FrankRep]

Simple question. Is using government force to steal 1000 properties in order to build a pipeline wrong? Yes or no.

I'm sorry to tell you, but you're Libertarian Utopia isn't possible nor realistic.


Most of the land owners agreed (http://www.glencoenews.com/print.asp?ArticleID=17180&SectionID=18&SubSectionID=31) to the project, which I think makes it less of a big deal.

Patty Dunn, Minnesota Pipe Line Company's public relations for the MinnCan project, said about 80 percent of the landowners have signed the easement agreements.


The Minnesota Public Utilities Commission (PUC) felt the MinnCan Project (http://www.minncanproject.com/) was necessary to strengthen Minnesota’s energy future.

[South Park Fan]

Most of the land owners agreed (http://www.glencoenews.com/print.asp?ArticleID=17180&SectionID=18&SubSectionID=31) to the project, which I think makes it less of a big deal.

Patty Dunn, Minnesota Pipe Line Company's public relations for the MinnCan project, said about 80 percent of the landowners have signed the easement agreements.


The Minnesota Public Utilities Commission (PUC) felt the MinnCan Project (http://www.minncanproject.com/) was necessary to strengthen Minnesota’s energy future.

Oh so they only were an accomplice to theft of ~200 peoples' homes

[FrankRep]

Oh so they only were an accomplice to theft of ~200 peoples' homes

Yeah, and John Adams approved of the Alien and Sedition Acts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts).

[South Park Fan]

Yeah, and John Adams approved of the Alien and Sedition Acts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts).

What is the point of this non sequitur? How do John Adams's tyrannical actions have anything to do with the Koch brothers?

[FrankRep]

What is the point of this non sequitur? How do John Adams's tyrannical actions have anything to do with the Koch brothers?

Minnesota Public Utilities Commission (PUC) approved the pipeline. That's what I mean.

[Fredom101]

If this is true, we simply need to follow the money. The Koch bros can say whatever they want. But if they are going with Cain over Paul, they aren't libertarians, and are most likely benefiting from the MIC or some other gov't sponsored scheme.

[FrankRep]

If this is true, we simply need to follow the money. The Koch bros can say whatever they want. But if they are going with Cain over Paul, they aren't libertarians, and are most likely benefiting from the MIC or some other gov't sponsored scheme.

Just like Donald Trump said: "I like Ron Paul, but he has 0% chance of winning."
I think the Koch Brothers are looking for a small government guy that has a chance of winning.

Reality is harsh. Sorry.

[Feeding the Abscess]

Your reality is that Cain is more electable than Ron Paul?

Why are you even here?