DEA Bans "Spice" (Popular synthetic cannabis)

[Reason]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_cannabis


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNVRbexJ-1M

[April1775]

Wyoming is in the process of trying to beat the feds at banning this even quicker, before the federal ban goes into effect. I wrote a letter to the editor against banning it, which was published in two local papers. I also sent a copy to every state rep (Dems and Republicans) who sponsored the bill. Several of them wrote back and basically said "I hear ya, but we're from the government and we're here to help...we know what's best better than you do.....and THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!'

Here's the letter I wrote:

Some Wyoming state legislators are rushing to ban “Spice,” synthetic marijuana. I don’t do drugs, but I’d vote against criminalizing it. Outlawing things only pushes them underground where they do not go away, but simply move into the hands of thugs. And if you outlaw something, people will still do it, and also find more dangerous alternatives.

I find it ironic that some of the same politicians who want to legalize concealed carry without a permit (which I’m in favor of) “because it’s none of the government’s business”, and want to repeal Obamacare (I’m in favor of repeal) to “keep the government out of our lives” and who back “The Cowboy Code” (of personal responsibility) also want to empower our state and local governments with more nanny laws like Spice bans, and tobacco ordinances on private property.

Nanny laws always have unintended consequences. If pot were legal, people wouldn’t smoke the possibly more-dangerous Spice. If you outlaw Spice, people will probably huff gasoline, a substance which is much more dangerous and impossible to ban.

It’s an endless battle. Are we winning the War on Drugs? No. And the War on Drugs CAUSES violence. And the violence only increases the more illegal you make something, because there is more money in it for people willing to break the law, which attracts more thugs. Alcohol prohibition in the 1920s didn’t get rid of alcohol, it put booze into the hands of the Mafia, and led to shoot outs in the streets.

For that matter, Wyoming should follow the lead of other states and legalize medical marijuana. Do we fiscally conservative Wyoming taxpayers really want to pay millions to house and feed people in prison for doing something that’s less harmful than alcohol? And if you call 911 in a REAL emergency, do you want the police to respond quickly, or be stuck across town playing babysitter by arresting adults who have aggressed against no one to “protect people from themselves?”

Banning every new thing that comes along is the camel’s nose under the tent. Outlaw Spice and they’ll end up outlawing Happy Meals. And lead ammunition. And hunting. And legal carry of guns.

The government shouldn’t raise children, parents should. Banning every new thing that comes along is an unwinnable battle under the guise of “think of the children!” But it really just gives the government more power over EVERY aspect of our lives.

[Sola_Fide]

*facepalm*

[Nate-ForLiberty]

http://www.ihatepeacocks.com/resources/dune_cat_spice_must_flow.jpg

[Sola_Fide]

http://www.sitesdesignedbysites.com/navigator.JPG

[Kregisen]

Arizona just banned it last month. I'm in the process of scheduling an interview with the state congresswoman who wrote it.

[April1775]

Arizona just banned it last month. I'm in the process of scheduling an interview with the state congresswoman who wrote it.

I'll bet ya she says some variation of "I hear ya, but we're from the government and we're here to help...we know what's best better than you do.....and THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!'

[Kregisen]

I'll bet ya she says some variation of "I hear ya, but we're from the government and we're here to help...we know what's best better than you do.....and THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!'

lol I know. I'm gonna start off with questions like this "What do you think the role of government is?" - then progress on to "where does the government get the right to regulate what people put in their bodies?" etc. I might also ask if the government has the right to ban fast food (she's a 300 pound congresswoman by the way...lol)

[April1775]

Try to ask her about unintended consequences, i.e. "If pot were legal, no one would smoke spice, which is far worse."

Also, didn't Arizona open up medical pot licensing recently? Think there are any dispensary owners secretly lobbying for this spice ban? Rumor is that's what happened in California, and is why California failed to fully legalize pot, with no need for a medical card.

[April1775]

I might also ask if the government has the right to ban fast food (she's a 300 pound congresswoman by the way...lol)

I can't find it by searching
"Ron Paul" on "Maury Povich" on YouTube, but somewhere on YouTube, there is a video from the 80s of Ron Paul on the Maury Povich show arguing for drug decriminalization against some REALLY screechy statist idiots......one pro-War on Drugs dude is kinda fat and Ron Paul points that out and says something like "You're overweight. As a physician, I can tell you that's dangerous to your health. Should the government be able to tell you to eat less because it would be better for you?"

I saw that live when it was on TV. It was my first exposure to the good doctor. I was a Democrat at the time, but really loved it.

[April1775]

Ask her, on record, if she has ever broken ANY federal, state or local law.

[amy31416]

I can't find it by searching
"Ron Paul" on "Maury Povich" on YouTube, but somewhere on YouTube, there is a video from the 80s of Ron Paul on the Maury Povich show arguing for drug decriminalization against some REALLY screechy statist idiots......one pro-War on Drugs dude is kinda fat and Ron Paul points that out and says something like "You're overweight. As a physician, I can tell you that's dangerous to your health. Should the government be able to tell you to eat less because it would be better for you?"

I saw that live when it was on TV. It was my first exposure to the good doctor. I was a Democrat at the time, but really loved it.

It wasn't Maury Povich, it was Morton Downey, Jr. (Probably why you had an issue finding it.) :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88REf0tjZHo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHB2I83_N_k

[April1775]

Thank you!

Yeah, the 80s were a bit of a blur.....

[payme_rick]

Geez, ya think Ron was a little fired up there? ha

Anyhoo, sucks for my friend... he was talking about it the other day and said "well, I guess I have to start smoking the real stuff again!"... don't get me wrong, he likes the real stuff better and he can get the real stuff cheaper, but he was enjoying 'not feeling illegal'...

I myself have never tried the stuff, though my friend has asked many a time if I'd like to...

he's ripe for a Ron Paul talkin' to now, because I've tried before and he didn't seem so receptive... this should make it more personal...

[Romulus]

What is the high like?... What chemicals are in it?

[April1775]

I don't do drugs, but a friend told me it's like a shitty pot high followed by a raging headache.
Jeez....sign me up!

[April1775]

Geez, ya think Ron was a little fired up there? ha
..


I KNOW! I think he's well mellowed with time. In a good way.

[April1775]

I might also ask if the government has the right to ban fast food (she's a 300 pound congresswoman by the way...lol)

Sounds good. Though I wouldn't recommend calling a sitting state Congresswoman "fat" to her face, even if a sitting US Congressman did it to someone on TV in the 80s.

[cdc482]

Wyoming is in the process of trying to beat the feds at banning this even quicker, before the federal ban goes into effect. I wrote a letter to the editor against banning it, which was published in two local papers. I also sent a copy to every state rep (Dems and Republicans) who sponsored the bill. Several of them wrote back and basically said "I hear ya, but we're from the government and we're here to help...we know what's best better than you do.....and THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!'

Here's the letter I wrote:

Some Wyoming state legislators are rushing to ban “Spice,” synthetic marijuana. I don’t do drugs, but I’d vote against criminalizing it. Outlawing things only pushes them underground where they do not go away, but simply move into the hands of thugs. And if you outlaw something, people will still do it, and also find more dangerous alternatives.

I find it ironic that some of the same politicians who want to legalize concealed carry without a permit (which I’m in favor of) “because it’s none of the government’s business”, and want to repeal Obamacare (I’m in favor of repeal) to “keep the government out of our lives” and who back “The Cowboy Code” (of personal responsibility) also want to empower our state and local governments with more nanny laws like Spice bans, and tobacco ordinances on private property.

Nanny laws always have unintended consequences. If pot were legal, people wouldn’t smoke the possibly more-dangerous Spice. If you outlaw Spice, people will probably huff gasoline, a substance which is much more dangerous and impossible to ban.

It’s an endless battle. Are we winning the War on Drugs? No. And the War on Drugs CAUSES violence. And the violence only increases the more illegal you make something, because there is more money in it for people willing to break the law, which attracts more thugs. Alcohol prohibition in the 1920s didn’t get rid of alcohol, it put booze into the hands of the Mafia, and led to shoot outs in the streets.

For that matter, Wyoming should follow the lead of other states and legalize medical marijuana. Do we fiscally conservative Wyoming taxpayers really want to pay millions to house and feed people in prison for doing something that’s less harmful than alcohol? And if you call 911 in a REAL emergency, do you want the police to respond quickly, or be stuck across town playing babysitter by arresting adults who have aggressed against no one to “protect people from themselves?”

Banning every new thing that comes along is the camel’s nose under the tent. Outlaw Spice and they’ll end up outlawing Happy Meals. And lead ammunition. And hunting. And legal carry of guns.

The government shouldn’t raise children, parents should. Banning every new thing that comes along is an unwinnable battle under the guise of “think of the children!” But it really just gives the government more power over EVERY aspect of our lives.

some constructive criticism for your letter: I don't think you should bring up so many other issues (gun rights, Obamacare) in your letter unless they are directly relevant to your main topic.

[cdc482]

Other than that really good letter with really good points.
I would also mention that if you truly do want to help the children you need to address the drug issue as a society, opening heroine clinics, etc. We know from experience that making them illegal will not necessarily stop children from doing them. We also know that, it does result in increased crime and poverty, especially for intercity kids. Also, there are some scary numbers that are around 50+% of law enforcement budget is spent on drug laws, and 50+% of people in jail are in their for nonviolent drug crimes. Idr the exact numbers.

[April1775]

some constructive criticism for your letter: I don't think you should bring up so many other issues (gun rights, Obamacare) in your letter unless they are directly relevant to your main topic.


Thank you. Though they are all topics that were spinning around the state legislature. It seemed (and still seems) germain to me.

They're also all connected....Obamacare contains provisions that could affect gun ownership, for instance. And the War on Drugs affects gun owners who do not do drugs....it increases the militarization of police at all levels....and leads to more search and arrest of people for non-violent gun crimes, like having something an inch too short or too long on your gun.

My feeling on liberty is that ALL topics are the same topic. Basically it all comes down to "there's no such thing as 'half-free'."

[Sola_Fide]

Moar Dune references please!

[coastie]

What is the high like?... What chemicals are in it?

Not sure what chemicals are in it, the "high" is similar to weed, but I think similar is a bit of a stretch. The only similarities I noticed was that I got the munchies off of it, as well as the red eyes.

That said, I used to smoke this stuff on the weekends while I was still enlisted. Only bought it a couple of times, mainly because I would only smoke 2-3 bowls on say a Friday, and I would literally feel "retarded" on the following Monday. So I quit buying it. Weed doesn't do that....

It smells like vanilla/honey and the taste and smoke take a few puffs to get used to. In my experience, it's as expensive, if not more than the real deal, and not worth it. I've also read somewhere that this stuff has actually killed a couple of people in the UK....:eek:

[April1775]

Other than that really good letter with really good points.
I would also mention that if you truly do want to help the children you need to address the drug issue as a society, opening heroine clinics, etc. We know from experience that making them illegal will not necessarily stop children from doing them. We also know that, it does result in increased crime and poverty, especially for intercity kids. .

I disagree with all of this. "think of the children!" should be ENTIRELY up to the parents, and private charity, not the government.

As for government-sponsored euro-style "heroine clinics", whether you mean "heroin maintenance" or "heroin detox/withdraw", this is not something the government should be in the business of. Paying for junky's junk is just welfare....It's paying someone not to mug you. If drugs were legal, they'd be cheaper than cigarettes and no one would need to mug anyone to support a habit. Or if a junky did mug someone, he should get shot in the process. That is entirely moral, to shoot someone who's initiating immediate, life-threatening aggression against you. And where I live, it's even legal.

The government paying for "withdraw clinics" is bunk. It doesn't cost anything to get off junk. I got off junk in 1994 by going to a bunch of NA and AA meetings. Those meetings do not take government money. They are "self-supporting through our own contributions", like they say in the opening of every meeting when they pass the basket. Everyone throws in a dollar or two, and that pays for the room rental, the coffee, the literature, etc.

[jrskblx125]

I smoked spice In LA and literally felt nothing. Just got red eyes. I get a bigger buzz from a cigarette hahaha

[coastie]

I smoked spice In LA and literally felt nothing. Just got red eyes. I get a bigger buzz from a cigarette hahaha

I had quite the opposite effect. There's 4 kinds (since I last tried it 3-4 yrs ago)

Spice
Spice Gold
SPice Platinum
Spice Diamond

None worth it, but all of them worked in being more potent than the previous, but unlike getting a short dose of "the stupids" that some really good weed can give you while high, "the stupids" with the spice didn't go away for me for several days at least. This was disconcerting enough for me to not smoke the shit anymore, and just wait until my enlistment was up and have the real deal.:D

Regardless, this is what happens when substances are banned. Would there be a market for Spice if Cannabis were decriminalized? Maybe, but I doubt it would last very long having cannabis as a legal and safer competitor.
The Navy has been cracking down hard on it lately, google US navy+spice, Marine Corps starting to boot people for it as well. 16 carrier crew members were kicked out just last month for it, along with several other cases, including a "spice ring".<hahahaha


http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-03/us/navy.drug.use_1_synthetic-drug-spice-emergency-ban?_s=PM:US

[April1775]

..."the stupids" with the spice didn't go away for me for several days at least.

I don't need drugs to feel like that...just a flu.

[t0rnado]

Wyoming is in the process of trying to beat the feds at banning this even quicker, before the federal ban goes into effect. I wrote a letter to the editor against banning it, which was published in two local papers. I also sent a copy to every state rep (Dems and Republicans) who sponsored the bill. Several of them wrote back and basically said "I hear ya, but we're from the government and we're here to help...we know what's best better than you do.....and THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!'

Here's the letter I wrote:

Some Wyoming state legislators are rushing to ban “Spice,” synthetic marijuana. I don’t do drugs, but I’d vote against criminalizing it. Outlawing things only pushes them underground where they do not go away, but simply move into the hands of thugs. And if you outlaw something, people will still do it, and also find more dangerous alternatives.

I find it ironic that some of the same politicians who want to legalize concealed carry without a permit (which I’m in favor of) “because it’s none of the government’s business”, and want to repeal Obamacare (I’m in favor of repeal) to “keep the government out of our lives” and who back “The Cowboy Code” (of personal responsibility) also want to empower our state and local governments with more nanny laws like Spice bans, and tobacco ordinances on private property.

Nanny laws always have unintended consequences. If pot were legal, people wouldn’t smoke the possibly more-dangerous Spice. If you outlaw Spice, people will probably huff gasoline, a substance which is much more dangerous and impossible to ban.

It’s an endless battle. Are we winning the War on Drugs? No. And the War on Drugs CAUSES violence. And the violence only increases the more illegal you make something, because there is more money in it for people willing to break the law, which attracts more thugs. Alcohol prohibition in the 1920s didn’t get rid of alcohol, it put booze into the hands of the Mafia, and led to shoot outs in the streets.

For that matter, Wyoming should follow the lead of other states and legalize medical marijuana. Do we fiscally conservative Wyoming taxpayers really want to pay millions to house and feed people in prison for doing something that’s less harmful than alcohol? And if you call 911 in a REAL emergency, do you want the police to respond quickly, or be stuck across town playing babysitter by arresting adults who have aggressed against no one to “protect people from themselves?”

Banning every new thing that comes along is the camel’s nose under the tent. Outlaw Spice and they’ll end up outlawing Happy Meals. And lead ammunition. And hunting. And legal carry of guns.

The government shouldn’t raise children, parents should. Banning every new thing that comes along is an unwinnable battle under the guise of “think of the children!” But it really just gives the government more power over EVERY aspect of our lives.

This is a well written, articulate letter. Great work there.

Spice is probably becoming a concern now because high school kids can easily buy it from headshops if they can't find weed around. Haven't tried it, but watch a couple of friends on it. It's nothing special.

[Krugerrand]

We should find a way to take a heavily funded product and convert it into a product that will get people high. I bet an attempt to outlaw high-fructose corn syrup would never make it into a draft state. Make a drug from HFCS and the police state loses to the fascist state.

[April1775]

This is a well written, articulate letter. Great work there.


Thank you. I worked on it a lot to get it just right....as opposed to the verbal diarrhea I spew on forums. I consider that more like chalk on the sidewalk.

[April1775]

We should find a way to take a heavily funded product and convert it into a product that will get people high.

We have that already. Ever huff gasoline?

[t0rnado]

We should find a way to take a heavily funded product and convert it into a product that will get people high. I bet an attempt to outlaw high-fructose corn syrup would never make it into a draft state. Make a drug from HFCS and the police state loses to the fascist state.

We need to form a Libertarian Organic Chemist Alliance for this.

[Krugerrand]

We have that already. Ever huff gasoline?

:D Can't say that I have.

[100DollarBarrelofOil]

What a great video. I'd love to see Ron that animated during the debates.

[Kregisen]

Try to ask her about unintended consequences, i.e. "If pot were legal, no one would smoke spice, which is far worse."

Also, didn't Arizona open up medical pot licensing recently? Think there are any dispensary owners secretly lobbying for this spice ban? Rumor is that's what happened in California, and is why California failed to fully legalize pot, with no need for a medical card.

I wrote a website on the war on drugs a year ago, it's the easiest issue in the world to debate.

[mczerone]

Good letter, but it'll likely be dismissed as not looking at "the horrible and unknown effects" of these drugs.

Even accepting their most damaging evidence that poison control center got 1500 hundred calls about the stuff doesn't imply a ban is needed. They listed the supposed side effects, seizures first (though I've not seen any cases of this reported in the media), then typical symptoms of being "high", like being paranoid or having a racing heart beat.

How many poison control calls did they get about alcohol in the same time period? How does this compare when adjusted for number of users, and number of people that are trying it for the first or second time?

They've hardly made a case that the crap could even be dangerous, yet they feel that they can write words on paper and effectively deprive people of their liberty and property.

Michigan's legislature passed a law last October making a class of synthetics illegal (Justin Amash the ONLY dissenting vote). So party stores and head shops lost revenue for a while. But guess what: by January a new class of chemicals showed up that hadn't been banned, and now similar synthetics are being sold again. The legislature is playing whack-a-mole with people's desires, and the chemical companies are 10x faster than law enforcement in finding out what people want.

So the points that should be made to effectively talk to those in power should include not only that they don't have the right to prohibit these nonviolent acts, but also that the dangers pale in comparison to alcohol and other legal chemicals, and that they are going to be chasing a never ending line of chemicals that people that want to get high will use.

[Madly_Sane]

I had quite the opposite effect. There's 4 kinds (since I last tried it 3-4 yrs ago)

Spice
Spice Gold
SPice Platinum
Spice Diamond

None worth it, but all of them worked in being more potent than the previous, but unlike getting a short dose of "the stupids" that some really good weed can give you while high, "the stupids" with the spice didn't go away for me for several days at least. This was disconcerting enough for me to not smoke the shit anymore, and just wait until my enlistment was up and have the real deal.:D

Regardless, this is what happens when substances are banned. Would there be a market for Spice if Cannabis were decriminalized? Maybe, but I doubt it would last very long having cannabis as a legal and safer competitor.
The Navy has been cracking down hard on it lately, google US navy+spice, Marine Corps starting to boot people for it as well. 16 carrier crew members were kicked out just last month for it, along with several other cases, including a "spice ring".<hahahaha

Same here, but mine only lasted for about a day. Also, it made my heart beat extremely fast and hard. I am never going to do it again, just not worth it when I have the real stuff available to me.

[pcosmar]

Where does the DEA get authority to make laws?

Where would Congress get any authority to make laws without asking the people FIRST?

How do they represent "the will of the people" without the "people" being consulted?
:confused:
:(