Teachers Deserve More

[romacox]

They are entrusted with the Nation' most valuable asset, and their job is much harder than people realize. They also get blamed for problems the Federal Government has created, (http://www.read-phonics.com/teach-reading-phonics.html) and are forced to spend their personal funds to supply classrooms with basic things like toilet paper and hand soap because the bureaucracy has pilfered the funds intended for the schools.

Yes, they deserve more, but we can no longer afford the benefits they receive. To save their jobs, we are forced to ask them to join us in cutting the bureaucracy that hat has created the problems they are being blamed for...out of control unions, and the Department of education.

Teachers are not the enemy, nor is libertarianism the enemy of the teacher.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KVJM5s8GzJ8

[April1775]

Horse poop.

Public school teachers indoctrinate statism. When I was a kid, it was right wing. Now it's left wing. It's all statism.
Public schools do not teach independent thought. They teach people to be good, compliant taxpayers. Or good soldiers.

They also don't do a good job. Last week I was reflecting on my school days, really thought it through. I'm a smart guy, went to a good school, and applied myself. The only thing school taught me was basic reading and math, the rest I taught myself, or my parents taught me. The basic reading and math I was taught could have easily been taught to me by my parents.

My wife and I don't have kids. But since we own a house, we pay property taxes to feed a leach system that does not benefit us in any way. If I refuse to pay, they will take my house...with a gun to my head if I resist. That is immoral.

Public schools suck. The whole system is immoral, and there is nothing in the Constitution, or in Natural Rights, to justify it.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Teachers do deserve more...






























































COMPETITION!!!

[angelatc]

Nobody "deserves" anything. Only 30% of American kids can perform at grade level, and yet we're supposed to pretend that "teachers" rank right up there with Mother Teresa?

[osan]

They are entrusted with the Nation' most valuable asset

And whose fault is that? Hi mom and dad!


and their job is much harder than people realize.

Teaching is not all that difficult in and of itself. The state framework of phony baloney requirements are the cause of perhaps as much as 95+% of the day to day difficulties.


...are forced to spend their personal funds to supply classrooms with basic things like toilet paper and hand soap because the bureaucracy has pilfered the funds intended for the schools.

Nonsense. The spend their funds voluntarily. Nobody is holding a gun to their head. Let us not exaggerate.


Teachers are not the enemy, nor is libertarianism the enemy of the teacher.

Who is saying they are?

[osan]

Nobody "deserves" anything. Only 30% of American kids can perform at grade level, and yet we're supposed to pretend that "teachers" rank right up there with Mother Teresa?


Generally speaking, this is really not the fault of the teachers, but of the law and the requirements and restrictions they place upon even the best pedagogue. There are some lousy teachers out there. That they still have jobs... well, thank your friendly union local for that. I have seen countless talented and dedicated teachers hampered and hamstrung by the administrations under which they must ply their craft. It is sickening to behold. The crap I had to deal with as a teacher in NYC you would not believe, and today I can confidently state that it is a full order of magnitude worse than it was then. Some of the things I used to do back in 84 would get me immediately fired today and possibly even jailed. It is pure lunacy, the lines they must toe. I will, however, grant you that many teachers suffer from the largely incurable disease of unionitis - entitlement mentality is pretty rife in those ranks.

The cure to all of this is to dismantle the public school system and force parents to become responsible for their issue. Parents are the ones most guilty in all of this because had they not tolerated all the social-liberal bunnies-n-light bullshit from these so called "experts" in education, we would still be educating our kids for something better than high score on net.games and learning to rap. Whoopdy friggin' doo... look ma, I be rappin'... jesus.

[April1775]

Aside from the basic fact that public schools are paid for by aggression, let's set that aside for a moment. (if that's possible.) Even if you think there should be public schools, the union system encourages mediocrity. Crappy teachers impossible to fire because of unions. Good teachers even hate this fact.

I would think unions would want to promote excellence. I think they've shot themselves in the foot by doing otherwise, and the bill is finally coming due.

[ItsTime]

How come we keep paying them more and spending record amount of money on education and we keep slipping in the standings?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9LiPaur6eO1KJAypB2ImVQ?docId=CNG.53375 04e8f65acf16c57d5cac3cfe339.1c1

How much do teachers ranked 14th in reading, 17th for science, and 25th for math, out of 34, with a ranking of "average" deserve?

[Original_Intent]

I have met public school teachers that were outstanding. They deserve more and would get it in an open, competitive and untenured environment.

I have also met teachers that I would not trust alone with my kids for five minutes, and lack the knowledge to be able to carry on an intelligent conversation for ten minutes. The only person's education they should be focussing on is their own. They would not have a job in a open, competitive market. We need to kill government run education for the kids, to help the bad teachers move to another career that they actually have a proficiency for, and to encourage the best and brightest to teach.

[brandon]

I never understood this. Teachers seem to be grossly overpaid. They make way above the median household income in this country, they get 4-5 months of vacation per year, a killer pension, and almost complete job security after a few years.

And it's not a highly skilled job. I think most people could handle teaching kids to add or spell their name.

[Elwar]

Schools will soon be rooms with babysitters keeping an eye on kids as they learn their class work on the Internet.

6 kids to a room, one low paid worker keeping an eye on the kids in the same way that a babysitter would making $10 an hour. It could even all be done from home. No need for schools.

Software and lectures from teachers that are canned with Teacher assistants available to answer questions from hundreds of kids if needed.

I take my Masters level courses online, sitting on my laptop at home. I've never met any of my teachers except through chat sessions.

Modern schooling will go away. The sooner the better.

[brandon]

Schools will soon be rooms with babysitters keeping an eye on kids as they learn their class work on the Internet.

6 kids to a room, one low paid worker keeping an eye on the kids in the same way that a babysitter would making $10 an hour. It could even all be done from home. No need for schools.

Software and lectures from teachers that are canned with Teacher assistants available to answer questions from hundreds of kids if needed.

I take my Masters level courses online, sitting on my laptop at home. I've never met any of my teachers except through chat sessions.

Modern schooling will go away. The sooner the better.

I mostly agree with this. I prefer to learn independently too. It's actually really the only way I can learn. The only problem with this is you can't teach yourself how to work with others. You really need to practice social skills and working in a group to be successful working a career later in life. Studying on the internet doesn't teach this.

[April1775]

With the internet, really all schools need to teach is reading. We could start by getting rid of everything past sixth grade.

[sailingaway]

Everyone 'deserves more' in that sense. Their job is more rewarding, so people can get away with paying them less. Right now the taxpayer isn't at the negotiation table at all, but is paying, on the public school side. On the private school side, presumably the market functions.

[April1775]

Schools will soon be rooms with babysitters keeping an eye on kids as they learn their class work on the Internet.

6 kids to a room, one low paid worker keeping an eye on the kids in the same way that a babysitter would making $10 an hour. It could even all be done from home. No need for schools.

Software and lectures from teachers that are canned with Teacher assistants available to answer questions from hundreds of kids if needed.

I take my Masters level courses online, sitting on my laptop at home. I've never met any of my teachers except through chat sessions.

Modern schooling will go away. The sooner the better.

+1775.

[Southron]

I think back to the days of one room schools where teachers were paid little but they did it because they wanted to help children learn. And the students who attended generally wanted to learn.

Now they must teach to the tests and it's hard to say how much retention of knowledge is taking place.

Increasing the compensation and benefits is only going to lead to more people becoming teachers for financial reasons. Really, does every child need to have 13 years of school? I wish we could end mandatory schooling and I think many of our educational problems will end.

With less students in school, the quality of both teachers and students will increase.

[enoch150]

They also get blamed for problems the Federal Government has created, and are forced to spend their personal funds to supply classrooms with basic things like toilet paper and hand soap because the bureaucracy has pilfered the funds intended for the schools.

Soap and toilet paper are basic necessities for classrooms now? I'm glad I got out of school before the primary focus became teaching kids how to wipe themselves and wash their hands when finished.

[Sola_Fide]

Schools will soon be rooms with babysitters keeping an eye on kids as they learn their class work on the Internet.

6 kids to a room, one low paid worker keeping an eye on the kids in the same way that a babysitter would making $10 an hour. It could even all be done from home. No need for schools.

Software and lectures from teachers that are canned with Teacher assistants available to answer questions from hundreds of kids if needed.

I take my Masters level courses online, sitting on my laptop at home. I've never met any of my teachers except through chat sessions.

Modern schooling will go away. The sooner the better.

I agree.

The only reason I see modern state-schooling continuing is because it is harder to socialize children whithout compulsory integration. The government indoctrinators love to personally brainwash and indoctrinate in groups for the sake of socialization.

[mczerone]

Aside from the basic fact that public schools are paid for by aggression, let's set that aside for a moment. (if that's possible.) Even if you think there should be public schools, the union system encourages mediocrity. Crappy teachers impossible to fire because of unions. Good teachers even hate this fact.

I would think unions would want to promote excellence. I think they've shot themselves in the foot by doing otherwise, and the bill is finally coming due.

The economic incentives of unionization are antithetical to promoting anything other than mediocrity. When a majority vote is needed to certify a union, who do you think votes yes? It's not the top of the class who are already being compensated more than their cohorts, its not the bright newcomers who think that they still have a chance to improve their compensation through merit. No it's the median and below who feel "disadvantaged" and that they aren't getting "their fair share".

The whole problem with Unions is that they exist to make sure people DON'T get what they "deserve", but to ensure that the below-average are compensated more, and that the above-average minority doesn't get to negotiate on their own value.

I grew up seeing what happens to Unionized industries and towns dependent on the industry: the less-than-adept get cushy compensation and become a true societal class, while the non-unionized and the brightest union members are shunted to second-class status in both the local political landscape and in the local economy. Unions have a limited purpose, and can be effective in seeing that purpose carried out, but on the whole they will create havoc and tyranny, with a small cadre of union leaders and city managers seeing the rewards even as the wider society collapses around them.

[romacox]

How come we keep paying them more and spending record amount of money on education and we keep slipping in the standings?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9LiPaur6eO1KJAypB2ImVQ?docId=CNG.53375 04e8f65acf16c57d5cac3cfe339.1c1

How much do teachers ranked 14th in reading, 17th for science, and 25th for math, out of 34, with a ranking of "average" deserve?

My friend, you aren't paying teachers...you are paying the government (and Unions) through your taxes. It is getting robbed before ever reaching the kids. Many schools have broken computers, no soap in the bathrooms, slop for food, ext.

[therepublic]

Generally speaking, this is really not the fault of the teachers, but of the law and the requirements and restrictions they place upon even the best pedagogue. There are some lousy teachers out there. That they still have jobs... well, thank your friendly union local for that. I have seen countless talented and dedicated teachers hampered and hamstrung by the administrations under which they must ply their craft. It is sickening to behold. The crap I had to deal with as a teacher in NYC you would not believe, and today I can confidently state that it is a full order of magnitude worse than it was then. Some of the things I used to do back in 84 would get me immediately fired today and possibly even jailed. It is pure lunacy, the lines they must toe. I will, however, grant you that many teachers suffer from the largely incurable disease of unionitis - entitlement mentality is pretty rife in those ranks.

The cure to all of this is to dismantle the public school system and force parents to become responsible for their issue. Parents are the ones most guilty in all of this because had they not tolerated all the social-liberal bunnies-n-light bullshit from these so called "experts" in education, we would still be educating our kids for something better than high score on net.games and learning to rap. Whoopdy friggin' doo... look ma, I be rappin'... jesus.

Well said Osan. Thank you for speaking up. Those who have been there (like yourself) are the ones we need to listen to because you have witnessed it. The media (with the assistance of the two party system and unions) deliberately try to mislead and divide. If we allow that to happen we end up fighting potential allies , and assisting the opposition.

Please continue to speak up, because if we are going to succeed, we need to stop attacking teachers, Christians, Tea Party...people in general are not the enemy, but sometimes we act like they are, and by so doing play right into the hands of those who would enslave us.

[osan]

How come we keep paying them more and spending record amount of money on education and we keep slipping in the standings?

Because it kills manifold birds with a single stone. The children receive zero education, though in many cases some good to even excellent training. The children are "socialized" to think as someone atop an ivory tower decides they should. The people are further bankrupted by the ever increasing per capita tabs. The revenues represent an incredible opportunity to loot the ill-gotten booty of the public coffers.

These are four major accomplishments the public system has achieved with the wildest success. A fifth is that the machinations have served the role of a safe political laboratory from which to gage public response to ever more outrageous usurpations. Being "only" the arena of education, people are far less likely to respond with anything more threatening than harsh words, thereby leaving those in power to play with the limits of tolerance. This might seem silly, but I doubt TPTB look at it that way. It is like a humongous population of lab rats upon which to try this and that to gage responses and to build statistical models for predicting behavior in more general terms.


How much do teachers ranked 14th in reading, 17th for science, and 25th for math, out of 34, with a ranking of "average" deserve?

Who is doing the ranking and what are the standards of judgment? You need to answer those questions fully before you could claim any legitimate basis for denigrating them using such rankings as cause.

The future of politics rests in the hands of the public school systems of the world, quite literally. Succeed in destroying the individual's desire and ability to question and you will be able to do as you please in terms of exercising arbitrary power.

I believe that TPTB at one point shit their pants to find just how docile and stupid the average man really is. The public school systems of the world were more wildly successful than I would be anyone could have imagined.

Looking to the teachers is falling for the diversion. Trust me, by and large the teachers are not the problem here.

[therepublic]

Awesome Osan...well said! Bump

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Saying teachers are the source of our educational problems is like saying Mexicans are the source or our illegal immigrant problems. We have setup a welfare state which attracts immigrants but then throw up a difficult process for being naturalized. Of course we're going to have illegal immigrant problems, especially when we don't defend our borders.

Similarly, we have setup an educational system based around babysitting and standardized testing which rewards fact regurgitation and penalizes critical thinking. A teacher's performance is graded by state and federal mandates as opposed to student success rate. This penalizes good teachers and promotes bad teachers. We have taken the sacred institution of the teacher/student relationship and corporatized it into a twisted version of mass production.

Mass production is great for things like cars, IPods, and blue-jeans.

Mass production is destructive for people in fields like EDUCATION, HEALTH CARE, RELIGION, and POLITICS.

[Justinjj1]

I never understood this. Teachers seem to be grossly overpaid. They make way above the median household income in this country, they get 4-5 months of vacation per year, a killer pension, and almost complete job security after a few years.

And it's not a highly skilled job. I think most people could handle teaching kids to add or spell their name.


I'm a high school teacher, and while I have several complaints with our educational system, some of the comments in this thread are ridiculous. I'm in my 7th year of teaching and make 36k a year, I would hardly consider that grossly overpaid. I get 2 months of vacation, but we DON'T get paid for those months. Where did you get this notion of "complete job security after a few years"? Definitely not in my state, we get a new contract each year, and we can be terminated for really any reason at all. Our district is undergoing massive cuts right now and a lot of teachers are going to be laid off.

Teaching is a highly skilled job. You have to have at least a bachelor's degree, plus complete a semester of unpaid student teaching, pass a rigorous exam to get certified, then every year you have to undergo several weeks of staff development training and sometimes extra college classes.

[romacox]

Saying teachers are the source of our educational problems is like saying Mexicans are the source or our illegal immigrant problems. We have setup a welfare state which attracts immigrants but then throw up a difficult process for being naturalized. Of course we're going to have illegal immigrant problems, especially when we don't defend our borders.

Similarly, we have setup an educational system based around babysitting and standardized testing which rewards fact regurgitation and penalizes critical thinking. A teacher's performance is graded by state and federal mandates as opposed to student success rate. This penalizes good teachers and promotes bad teachers. We have taken the sacred institution of the teacher/student relationship and corporatized it into a twisted version of mass production.

Mass production is great for things like cars, IPods, and blue-jeans.

Mass production is destructive for people in fields like EDUCATION, HEALTH CARE, RELIGION, and POLITICS.

bump http://www.read-phonics.com/psychology-frued--bernays-constitution.html

[Dan710]

I'm a high school teacher, and while I have several complaints with our educational system, some of the comments in this thread are ridiculous. I'm in my 7th year of teaching and make 36k a year, I would hardly consider that grossly overpaid. I get 2 months of vacation, but we DON'T get paid for those months. Where did you get this notion of "complete job security after a few years"? Definitely not in my state, we get a new contract each year, and we can be terminated for really any reason at all. Our district is undergoing massive cuts right now and a lot of teachers are going to be laid off.

Teaching is a highly skilled job. You have to have at least a bachelor's degree, plus complete a semester of unpaid student teaching, pass a rigorous exam to get certified, then every year you have to undergo several weeks of staff development training and sometimes extra college classes.

Yeah, Florida doesn't have tenure. The only thing close is two counties where they have an automatic renewal of contracts each year. Other than those two counties the state has nothing close to tenure. It is better than states with tenure but pay is still based on years of experience rather than performance. And the starting salary here is about what you earn, which seems really low for seven years of teaching.

Teaching may be a skilled job if done successfully but the education classes at my school, UCF, are ridiculously easy. I have also heard teachers tell me the exams were a joke in the Social Science area. I wouldn't say the credentials needed to teach are difficult to attain from what I have seen.

It is difficult to generalize about the education system though because each state is still very different from the next. Some states require a Masters and some only a Bachelors. In some states the pay is low and others it's much higher but they are usually based on the cost of living in the state.

[Tal]

What public school teachers deserve is pink slips, all of them.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I'm a high school teacher, and while I have several complaints with our educational system, some of the comments in this thread are ridiculous. I'm in my 7th year of teaching and make 36k a year, I would hardly consider that grossly overpaid. I get 2 months of vacation, but we DON'T get paid for those months. Where did you get this notion of "complete job security after a few years"? Definitely not in my state, we get a new contract each year, and we can be terminated for really any reason at all. Our district is undergoing massive cuts right now and a lot of teachers are going to be laid off.

Teaching is a highly skilled job. You have to have at least a bachelor's degree, plus complete a semester of unpaid student teaching, pass a rigorous exam to get certified, then every year you have to undergo several weeks of staff development training and sometimes extra college classes.

Highly skilled job? I disagree but I am curious to find out:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?282213-The-evidence-teaching-is-not-a-highly-skilled-job!-The-smoking-gun-about-teaching!!!

36k is a good salary considering data available from the census. Lets take the income distribution chart available on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States




$35,000 to $37,499 7,917 3.74 61.08

You are paid more than 61% of the population (with a 2 month vacation to boot) and we haven't even factored in benefits. That is not good pay? WTH?

[Tal]

Teaching is a highly skilled job. You have to have at least a bachelor's degree, plus complete a semester of unpaid student teaching, pass a rigorous exam to get certified, then every year you have to undergo several weeks of staff development training and sometimes extra college classes.

Teaching a highly skilled job?? gimme a break, learning a kid to do basic reading and writing is not hard as long as you use the correct methods.

Maybe if you were teaching advanced physics or something I would concede your point but that isnt what most teachers are doing, they are doing simple stuff.

[BrendenR]

36k is a good salary considering data available from the census[/url]

You are paid more than 61% of the population (with a 2 month vacation to boot) and we haven't even factored in benefits. That is not good pay? WTH?

I am a software engineer with 4 years experience, I make 70k a year.

If you take into account his vacation time an annualized his salary to compensate, he makes 42k/yr with SEVEN years of experience. This assumes that he takes up a job making the same salary during his "vacation".

I don't understand how going after teachers is going to fix anything.

[Justinjj1]

Highly skilled job? I disagree but I am curious to find out:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?282213-The-evidence-teaching-is-not-a-highly-skilled-job!-The-smoking-gun-about-teaching!!!

36k is a good salary considering data available from the census. Lets take the income distribution chart available on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States




You are paid more than 61% of the population (with a 2 month vacation to boot) and we haven't even factored in benefits. That is not good pay? WTH?



From the same wikipedia page

Persons, age 25+, employed full-time
Bachelor's Degree
$50,944


I'm not complaining about my salary, I think that I'm paid fairly. However, I was objecting to the idea that teacher's are "grossly overpaid."

[Danke]

From the same wikipedia page

Persons, age 25+, employed full-time
Bachelor's Degree
$50,944


I'm not complaining about my salary, I think that I'm paid fairly. However, I was objecting to the idea that teacher's are "grossly overpaid."

Does your school offer a Defined Benefit Plan? If so, how many years until one can retire? And what is the amount paid in retirement?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I am a software engineer with 4 years experience, I make 70k a year.

If you take into account his vacation time an annualized his salary to compensate, he makes 42k/yr with SEVEN years of experience. This assumes that he takes up a job making the same salary during his "vacation".

I don't understand how going after teachers is going to fix anything.

Software developers enjoy higher productivity because code libraries are refined and reused. The more code libraries one is familiar with the more productive you can be. If all software had to be developed from scratch and built from the ground up software developers would not enjoy the higher compensation that comes with increased productivity.

However in teaching people want decreased productivity (ie smaller classroom size). A decrease in productivity is going to come with a reduction in pay whether you want it to or not.

[jclay2]

Does your school offer a Defined Benefit Plan? If so, how many years until one can retire? And what is the amount paid in retirement?

and thats what they don't want to talk about. In illinois, teachers get basically 75% of the average of their four highest salary years. Plus, it is indexed 3% for inflation.

[heavenlyboy34]

Software developers enjoy higher productivity because code libraries are refined and reused. The more code libraries one is familiar with the more productive you can be. If all software had to be developed from scratch and built from the ground up software developers would not enjoy the higher compensation that comes with increased productivity.

However in teaching people want decreased productivity (ie smaller classroom size). A decrease in productivity is going to come with a reduction in pay whether you want it to or not.
Are you sure this applies in the case of education? In my experience, teachers who teach privately or to small class sizes are able to charge more because they provide a valuable service (more attention given to individual students). Plus, the smaller class sizes would use the same amount of energy (lighting and climate, water fountains, etc) and resources (chalk, whiteboard pens, etc).

[awake]

Teachers do deserve more, they deserve to be free to teach, not bound to the state.

[anaconda]

Nobody "deserves" anything. Only 30% of American kids can perform at grade level, and yet we're supposed to pretend that "teachers" rank right up there with Mother Teresa?

Agreed!

In a free market the really good teachers might very well make gobs more than they currently do. And the shitty ones would make a lot less. And the Ford Foundation brain washing would be removed from the agenda.

[therepublic]

Agreed!

In a free market the really good teachers might very well make gobs more than they currently do. And the shitty ones would make a lot less. And the Ford Foundation brain washing would be removed from the agenda.

bump

[therepublic]

I think the meaning of the original post was to make the point that it is the Department of Education and the Unions that have created the problem. We can blame teachers and all of us for not speaking out sooner But it was also intended to let teachers who are part of this movement, and trying to stand up to these two powerful organizations that they were welcome here.

It makes no sense to want to keep attacking and running off individual members ( Christians, Tea Party, and now teachers . When will this insanity stop? Some of you have reached out to stand up for members who happen to be teachers (and of other labels) , and others have behaved like down right bullies.

[Travlyr]

Teachers do deserve more...

COMPETITION!!!

+1

All of us do.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Are you sure this applies in the case of education? In my experience, teachers who teach privately or to small class sizes are able to charge more because they provide a valuable service (more attention given to individual students). Plus, the smaller class sizes would use the same amount of energy (lighting and climate, water fountains, etc) and resources (chalk, whiteboard pens, etc).

I am not going to argue against comparing teachers to artists because in an unregulated free market with no education monopoly it would certainly happen.


Seeking the best educator money can buy?

Call John Jones today!

90% of my students earn over $100k per year
3 of my students have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize
etc.


I would not speculate or wager it would be the predominant model. You introduced a new variable into the equation. Quality. I would speculate in the free market increased productivity and market specialization will also increase quality which I would also speculate will generally out compete education artists in volume.

[osan]

Software developers enjoy higher productivity because code libraries are refined and reused. The more code libraries one is familiar with the more productive you can be.

This presupposes the libraries are good to begin with, which in some cases they are not. "More" productivity does not necessarily translate into "better". The world is inundated with the fruits of shitty coding and design. We could go blind listing all the programs not worth a damn in terms of quality of performance, security, efficiency, interface design, and so forth. Code reuse is an admirable goal... on paper, and even in practice at a certain level.

The current fashion of OO programming allows faster development, but it also requires far less skill on the part of the coders. Today we have virtually zero attention paid to issues such as proper memory management, which contributes to the poor performance typically encountered in so many systems. Generally speaking, coders are inept and lazy in these regards - they slap lines together that do the job but not so very well in far too many instances. In a word, the contemporary state of typical commercial application code is "shit". Cheap memory has enabled the full blossoming of mediocrity in the world of software development.

Guys like Yourdin, while very bright in many ways, were also full of shit in some of the fundamental assumptions they made ab out the ways things work. Fairy dust does not produce solid systems. Knowing what you are doing, OTOH, does. Most coders today have not the faintest clue as to what they are doing in these terms. Knowing how to write a Java or C# applet does not make you a competent programmer. Understanding algorithms, efficiency issues, structures, all elements of basic computer science, are prerequisites - the very minimum required to be able to call yourself a competent software developer. Less than that and you are an amateur, and probably a dangerous one at that. I have known literally thousands of these, the real programmers numbering in just the few hundreds.

Just look at how computer science curricula have changed over the past 20 years. When I was doing my undergrad work we had to take a full year of discrete math, which is pretty well makes calculus look like first grade arithmetic. The theoretical classes were all ball-busters. Today, "coding in Java" has replaced "data structures" and learning to code for real in languages such as FORTRAN, C, and assembly language in many college departments. It is ridiculous.
If all software had to be developed from scratch and built from the ground up software developers would not enjoy the higher compensation that comes with increased productivity. Higher compensation? Is that a joke? Seriously, so you have any idea what you are saying? I used to take $200/hr to bang code and manage projects. Now I am dreaming of $60. I have known SAP programmers to take $400/hr on short term emergency contracts. They might get $60 now... if lucky. In this case increased productivity has resulted in a DECREASE in compensation.


Economics 001. Hello.


However in teaching people want decreased productivity (ie smaller classroom size). A decrease in productivity is going to come with a reduction in pay whether you want it to or not. Flawed analysis. "productivity" in this case is not a function of quantity, but of quality. Quality is the benchmark of productivity. Teaching 34 students at a time results in far and away poorer productivity. This fact is apodictically demonstrated in the results for which we may thank our illustrious public system. Consider an ER at a hospital - terribly inefficient from a resources viewpoint, what with all the disposable items that are used once and discarded. Luckily for the people coming to visit who have been busted up in all manner of terrible ways, productivity is not measured in such terms, but in those of optimal patient recovery, both quantitatively and qualitatively (though this Obamacare shit aims to change that as well).


You have to be very careful when speaking of such things and using terms such as "productivity" because the term is most often taken to mean "quantity", and that is simply not always the case. Lowering class size to about 10 increases productivity because the QUALITY of the result will be better, all else equal.

[libertarian4321]

I have a feeling that the first day you enter an education program at college, they bring in union representative to teach you how to whine about your "low salary" as a teacher. Students probably spend their first semester changing the mantra.

I've never heard ANY profession bitch and moan as often as teachers about how poorly they are paid (the military is a distant second in this category). Especially given that they are well paid for their level of education and the number of hours they actually spend on the job.

[acptulsa]

Teachers deserve more. More freedom from collectivism. Seems to me the federal Department of Education is doing its job. It is helping to raise the lousiest teachers to the level of mediocre. Unfortunately, they're also dragging the good ones down to the mediocre level. The OP is right. Any competent teacher is a potential convert for us.