Georgia Legislator Wants To Investigate Miscarriages, Create Uterus Police

[amy31416]

http://blogs.babble.com/being-pregnant/2011/02/21/georgia-legislator-wants-to-investigate-miscarriages-create-uterus-police/


First the attack on Planned Parenthood funding and now this: State Rep. Bobby Franklin of Georgia introduced a bill in his state last week that, if enacted, would require proof that a miscarriage occurred naturally. If a woman can’t prove that her miscarriage–or spontaneous abortion–occurred without intervention, she could face felony charges.

From the Daily Kos, “Franklin wants to create a Uterus Police to investigate miscarriages, and requires that any time a miscarriage occurs, whether in a hospital or without medical assistance, it must be reported and a fetal death certificate issued. If the cause of death is unknown, it must be investigated. If the woman can’t tell how it happened, then those Uterus Police can ask family members and friends how it happened. Hospitals are required to keep records of anyone who has a spontaneous abortion and report it.”

The mind reels. I don’t even know where to begin. “If the cause of death is unknown”?? Does this guy know a thing about miscarriage?


Many miscarriages happen without warning or explanation. Women are devastated. Most occur in the first trimester. Most are not “investigated.” Often we just don’t know why the miscarriage happened. It’s thought that the reasons for many miscarriages has to do with some kind of chromosomal abnormality that makes the pregnancy nonviable. So, if a doctor says, I’m not sure precisely why this pregnancy didn’t continue, what will happen? How will they “investigate?” By asking friends? Asking them what? I can’t even imagine these conversations, the whole thing is so misguided. And miscarriage is common– as many as one in five pregnancies end in on. That’s lots of conversations and investigations of women who have just lost their babies.

The bill is mostly aimed to make sure that any attempt to remove an embryo or fetus from a mother must be with the goal of a live birth. Ectopic pregnancy– which can be fatal to mother and fetus– is no exception. Maternal bleeding, cancer… no exceptions. I doubt it will pass, but this news comes at the end of a really rotten week for reproductive rights.

Thanks to Elaine Magliaro, for bringing this news to me via Jonathan Turley’s blog.

Here’s more coverage of this story:

Daily Kos

photo: Donovan & Meggin Eastman/Flickr

Obviously these are liberal sources...but this was a potential issue that concerned me about this guy.

[Yieu]

That would mean more government intrusion into people's lives, more surveillance, bigger government, and innocent people getting punished. Not a solution to the problem. Abortion is a moral issue, and it is one that those who have it done will eventually pay for (karma), but it is not Man's duty to punish sin, that is for God to do.

[amy31416]

That would mean more government intrusion into people's lives, more surveillance, bigger government, and innocent people getting punished. Not a solution to the problem. Abortion is a moral issue, and it is one that those who have it done will eventually pay for (karma), but it is not Man's duty to punish sin, that is for God to do.

That was precisely what I was concerned about. I found, and read, the legislation--and it doesn't appear to be left-wing hysteria.

http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/en-US/display.aspx?Legislation=31965

[teacherone]

excuse me ma'am-- we have a warrant to inspect your uterus.

[TonySutton]

We need cameras inside every woman of child bearing age so we can monitor this very important issue...


/sarcasm

[moostraks]

This guy is a moron and needs to be run out of town. I have had 4 miscarriages. There was not a thing that could have been done about any of them. They were so early. It just happens is the response you will get many times (meaning roughly fetal abnormality induced). Also seems like a great way to force more women into invasive unnecessary procedures due to liability. Gives me yet another reason of why I'm glad I don't live in Georgia anymore...

[FrankRep]

http://static01.mediaite.com/med/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Picture-140.png
Ron Paul, CPAC 2011 Straw Poll Winner (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6299-ron-paul-wins-cpac-presidential-straw-vote)


Flashback:

H.R.1094 - Sanctity of Life Act of 2007 (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-h1094/show)

Sponsor: Ron Paul

(1) human life shall be deemed to exist from conception, without regard to race, sex, age, health, defect, or condition of dependency; and
(2) the term "person" shall include all such human life. Recognizes that each state has authority to protect the lives of unborn children residing in the jurisdiction of that state . Amends the federal judicial code to remove Supreme Court and district court jurisdiction to review cases arising out of any statute, ordinance, rule, regulation, or practice, or any act interpreting such a measure, on the grounds that such measure:

(1) protects the rights of human persons between conception and birth; or
(2) prohibits, limits, or regulates the performance of abortions or the provision of public funds, facilities, personnel, or other assistance for abortions. Makes this Act applicable to any case pending on the date of enactment.

[Sola_Fide]

Poorly worded and biased thread title...

[Yieu]

FrankRep and AquaBuddha2010, this is not about protecting the unborn, this is about the State scrutinizing, spying upon, and potentially prosecuting innocent individuals. If you are really concerned about individuals who try to harm their unborn, you can rest assured that regardless of the State, God will sort it out in the end. Sins do not go unpunished.

[moostraks]

http://static01.mediaite.com/med/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Picture-140.png
Ron Paul, CPAC 2011 Straw Poll Winner (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6299-ron-paul-wins-cpac-presidential-straw-vote)


Flashback:

H.R.1094 - Sanctity of Life Act of 2007 (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-h1094/show)

Sponsor: Ron Paul

(1) human life shall be deemed to exist from conception, without regard to race, sex, age, health, defect, or condition of dependency; and
(2) the term "person" shall include all such human life. Recognizes that each state has authority to protect the lives of unborn children residing in the jurisdiction of that state . Amends the federal judicial code to remove Supreme Court and district court jurisdiction to review cases arising out of any statute, ordinance, rule, regulation, or practice, or any act interpreting such a measure, on the grounds that such measure:

(1) protects the rights of human persons between conception and birth; or
(2) prohibits, limits, or regulates the performance of abortions or the provision of public funds, facilities, personnel, or other assistance for abortions. Makes this Act applicable to any case pending on the date of enactment.


So you think that Dr.Paul would have women arrested and jailed for miscarrying? Why don't you go over to babycenter and pick this months new webboard for women who are just finding out they are pregnant and follow them for 3 months and see how many women have miscarriages they DON"T want to happen? Or go to the Actively trying the next level board at babycenter and see how much unexplained fertility with early miscarriages occur and the devastation these parents go through from it? Ignorance must be bliss, because this was positively without any tact to put this comment as a defense for someone willing to heap more misery on those of us who have had miscarriages as if we CHOOSE to abort our children!!!! The legislation reads that there will be a 30 day investigation of cause. What happens when the cause is undetermined as many miscarriages are? Do you know how many factors are involved in sustaining a healthy pregnancy? Fetal abnormality is given as the blanket answer by doctors but only as a way to ease the parents' conscience because most aren't deeply investigated.

[moostraks]

Poorly worded and biased thread title...

Did you even skim over the legislation? One must show just cause of reason for miscarrying. They even include what appears to be a nifty reporting facet akin to social services tattle program. So I guess if your neighbor is pissed at you they can accuse you of having aborted and there will be no repercussions for allegations. Section 2.17.

[Yieu]

Did you even skim over the legislation? One must show just cause of reason for miscarrying. They even include what appears to be a nifty reporting facet akin to social services tattle program. So I guess if your neighbor is pissed at you they can accuse you of having aborted and there will be no repercussions for allegations. Section 2.17.

I haven't read it, but I can already tell this is more about State control over individuals than about protecting the unborn. This sort of thing is a personal matter, and having the State come in and start accusing women whom are mourning their loss of trying to kill their unborn child... is just unthinkable. Miscarriages are more common than some would think. Sure, there are those who try to abort by making it look like a miscarriage, but that is not an excuse to investigate every miscarriage. This is something that would harm more innocents than not. I do not like to see the unborn die, but this law is not very understanding and not very forgiving. God judges us, not Man, nor the State.

[Invi]

This is ridiculous. You cannot harass all the other women who miscarry without medical attendance in hopes of finding and punishing the few that did so intentionally.

[georgiaboy]

So I read through the bill, albeit not in detail, and all I saw was that it claimed personhood beginning at conception, and therefore it extended normal death defining processes for those persons who died prior to their live birth.

It did not seem like any undo additional harassment beyond that which normally occurrs when someone dies. Identifying cause of death, etc.

If one is pro-life and life begins at conception, this seems like a natural extension.

Or maybe I misread the bill.

[moostraks]

So I read through the bill, albeit not in detail, and all I saw was that it claimed personhood beginning at conception, and therefore it extended normal death defining processes to for those persons who died prior to live birth.

It did not seem like any undo additional harassment beyond that which normally occurrs when someone dies. Identifying cause of death, etc.

If one is pro-life and life begins at conception, this seems like a natural extension.

Or maybe I misread the bill.

It requires an investigation of death with determination being what would convict the mother of murder. All miscarriages do NOT have a definitive cause for death. Many are before you even see a doctor so this would increase invasive techniques merely to assuage the conscience of a few and will lead to recriminations for those who cannot prove cause of death. It also gives immunity to those who accuse others of having miscarried I guess for investigative purposes.

Furthermore they will take your fetal tissue and do an analysis. The last thing I wanted for my babies lost due to miscarriage was the thought of them poking, prodding, and dissecting them under a microscope. I accepted the loss, but the image in my head of the investigation horrifies me.

[sailingaway]

This is messed up. People who have miscarriages are usually in mourning, of one degree or other. They should be left alone.

[amy31416]

It requires an investigation of death with determination being what would convict the mother of murder. All miscarriages do NOT have a definitive cause for death. Many are before you even see a doctor so this would increase invasive techniques merely to assuage the conscience of a few and will lead to recriminations for those who cannot prove cause of death. It also gives immunity to those who accuse others of having miscarried I guess for investigative purposes.

Furthermore they will take your fetal tissue and do an analysis. The last thing I wanted for my babies lost due to miscarriage was the thought of them poking, prodding, and dissecting them under a microscope. I accepted the loss, but the image in my head of the investigation horrifies me.

Thanks moostraks, all your posts in here pretty much sum up how repulsive I found this as well.

And for those of you who say it's an hysterical title--read the bill. I provided a link. That congressman is completely out of his mind.

[georgiaboy]

It requires an investigation of death with determination being what would convict the mother of murder. All miscarriages do NOT have a definitive cause for death. Many are before you even see a doctor so this would increase invasive techniques merely to assuage the conscience of a few and will lead to recriminations for those who cannot prove cause of death. It also gives immunity to those who accuse others of having miscarried I guess for investigative purposes.

I don't see how it requires an investigation of death any more than the kind of investigation that occurs when anyone dies. Natural causes is what's listed on most death certificates, and the investigation is not really any sort of invasive or ciminal investigation, its just asking the nearest of kin for filling out the death certificate - an admittedly cold & awkward process, regardless of circumstance.

I am indeed sorry for your losses, MS. I'm close to others who have undergone miscarriages, and I sympathize. I don't think this legislation is intended to prolong the pain or accuse all who miscarry of murder. It's just applying normal death procedures from conception forward.

[osan]

excuse me ma'am-- we have a warrant to inspect your uterus.

Sounds stoopid, doesn't it? But that would essentially be the result.

[osan]

This is ridiculous. You cannot harass all the other women who miscarry without medical attendance in hopes of finding and punishing the few that did so intentionally.

Sure you can. If you allow it.

[TonySutton]

Wow, we need more and bigger government for another social conservative issue... really? Big government is bad except when I need it to push my social conservative agenda. *pukes*

There is no need for this bill.

[Yieu]

Wow, we need more and bigger government for another social conservative issue... really? Big government is bad except when I need it to push my social conservative agenda. *pukes*

There is no need for this bill.

Indeed, one can be personally socially conservative without wishing social conservatism to be legislated. Social conservatism being legislated is at odds with fiscal conservatism, and with liberty.

[moostraks]

I don't see how it requires an investigation of death any more than the kind of investigation that occurs when anyone dies. Natural causes is what's listed on most death certificates, and the investigation is not really any sort of invasive or ciminal investigation, its just asking the nearest of kin for filling out the death certificate - an admittedly cold & awkward process, regardless of circumstance.

I am indeed sorry for your losses, MS. I'm close to others who have undergone miscarriages, and I sympathize. I don't think this legislation is intended to prolong the pain or accuse all who miscarry of murder. It's just applying normal death procedures from conception forward.

There are not always definitive reasons for a miscarriage. In that event you will be guilty of murder. The process of determination will involve destruction of fetal tissue through the investigative process. They will force women through invasive techniques when it is an act of nature. You will more than likely have them forcing more dnc's as a means to remove all fetal tissue for the investigation. The more dncs you have the more damage you cause to the woman's uterus and the less likely she will conceive and carry to term. This is a bad law!!!

I am pro-life but this is obscene and without thought clearly written by someone without a clue and from a stance of guilty until proven innocent.

[ChaosControl]

It is disgusting.

Women already have to go through enough trauma when they miscarry, why would we make them deal with more just because there may be a few psychos out there who would intentionally induce a miscarriage?

I'm one of the most pro-life / anti-abortion people in the world, and even I oppose this.

[Yieu]

It is disgusting.

Women already have to go through enough trauma when they miscarry, why would we make them deal with more just because there may be a few psychos out there who would intentionally induce a miscarriage?

I'm one of the most pro-life / anti-abortion people in the world, and even I oppose this.

My thoughts exactly. I am very pro-life and anti-abortion, but this would be a terrible law.

[Gray Seal]

There are essentially two positions on pregnancy. One is that a woman has health and reproductive rights and it is her judgement which determines the course of pregnancy. The other position is that embryos are separate humans independent of the woman. The state must represent the embryo as it is a separate human. The health of the embryo has a superior consideration to the mother as the state chooses.

The proposed legislation supports the later position. The next step would be to require pregnant women to register with the state so that the state may represent the interest of the embryo and make health choices for the embryo.

[Pericles]

Indeed, one can be personally socially conservative without wishing social conservatism to be legislated. Social conservatism being legislated is at odds with fiscal conservatism, and with liberty.
The uterus police can share the same office as the circumcision police.

[dannno]

Poorly worded and biased thread title...

Can you elaborate :confused:

[silentshout]

This is horrific if this is true.

[dannno]

just because there may be a few psychos out there who would intentionally induce a miscarriage?


I can't possibly fathom how inducing a miscarriage in the first month or two, before the child is even aware they exist is 'psychotic', although I can imagine some amount of guilt that may come with it anyway.

Again, I see no difference between using a condom and miscarrying or aborting before the child is aware they exist.. both acts are ending potential human life equally, and nobody on this board has been able to explain to me how both of these things are not equal in nature.

[Invi]

http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20112012/108128.pdf

There's the bill. Reading it, it looks like it outlaws abortion as murder, and any woman who has a miscarriage without medical attendance and cannot prove a reason why would be subject to an investigation.

[ChaosControl]

I can't possibly fathom how inducing a miscarriage in the first month or two, before the child is even aware they exist is 'psychotic', although I can imagine some amount of guilt that may come with it anyway.

Again, I see no difference between using a condom and miscarrying or aborting before the child is aware they exist.. both acts are ending potential human life equally, and nobody on this board has been able to explain to me how both of these things are not equal in nature.

It doesn't matter if the child is aware. Murder is always psychotic. Intentionally killing of an innocent life, born or not, is murder.
A condom prevents life from ever forming. Abortion intentionally ends an already existing life. Miscarriage may end a life, but it isn't intentional, most of the time. If a miscarriage is intentional though, it is the same as abortion.

[silentshout]

Wow, we need more and bigger government for another social conservative issue... really? Big government is bad except when I need it to push my social conservative agenda. *pukes*

There is no need for this bill.

I agree, but i expect to see more of things like this. Which will end up as a backlash against conservatism in general IMO. Which is a shame. I am pro-choice but overlook the abortion stuff usually as I am in a state that will most likely never be anti-choice. I care more about ending the wars and fixing the economy. But bills like this remind me of the Handmaid's Tale, and are frightening.

[dannno]

It doesn't matter if the child is aware. Murder is always psychotic. Intentionally killing of an innocent life, born or not, is murder.
A condom prevents life from ever forming. Abortion intentionally ends an already existing life. Miscarriage may end a life, but it isn't intentional, most of the time. If a miscarriage is intentional though, it is the same as abortion.

I don't see how a life is uniquely human before said human is aware of themselves or things around them. Before that, the mass of cells which some call 'human life' is functioning like the fictional zombie, the cells function, the cells are alive, but there's no 'person' inside, or at least it can't be proven that I'm aware of. Is it fair to take the life away from a human before they become aware of them self when there is the potential for human awareness and life? Well no, it isn't fair, the idea can be scary for some. But what is the difference when that potential life ends? This potential life exists during intercourse, and it exists before that and it exists all around us, but for simplicity sake, a condom is a direction action to aid in the ending of potential human life and has zero difference, as far as I'm concerned, from ending the potential human life before it is aware of itself.

[dannno]

It's like the movie Avatar.. let's say you were told you were going to get an Avatar, and you were all excited about it. Then one day you find out you won't be getting an Avatar afterall, and this is obviously upsetting.

Does it matter whether the Avatar was created and the failed some how before you were able to inhabit it, or whether they decided to never create the Avatar at all? I don't see how either scenario occurring would make a difference to you. Either way you never get an Avatar.

[dannno]

http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20112012/108128.pdf

There's the bill. Reading it, it looks like it outlaws abortion as murder, and any woman who has a miscarriage without medical attendance and cannot prove a reason why would be subject to an investigation.


Section 2.14 if you want the actual language.




SECTION 2.14.
197 Said title is further amended by revising subsection (a) of Code Section 31-10-18, relating
198 to registration of spontaneous fetal deaths, as follows:
199 "(a) A report of spontaneous fetal death for each spontaneous fetal death which occurs in
200 this state shall be filed with the local registrar of the county in which the delivery occurred
201 within 72 hours after such delivery in accordance with this Code section unless the place
202 of fetal death is unknown, in which case a fetal death certificate shall be filed in the county
203 in which the dead fetus was found within 72 hours after such occurrence. All induced
204 terminations of pregnancy shall be reported in the manner prescribed in Code Section
205 31-10-19. Preparation and filing of reports of spontaneous fetal death shall be as follows:
206 (1) When a dead fetus is delivered in an institution, the person in charge of the institution
207 or that person's designated representative shall prepare and file the report;
208 (2) When a dead fetus is delivered outside an institution, the physician in attendance at
209 or immediately after delivery shall prepare and file the report;
210 (3) When a spontaneous fetal death required to be reported by this Code section occurs
211 without medical attendance at or immediately after the delivery or when inquiry is
212 required by Article 2 of Chapter 16 of Title 45, the 'Georgia Death Investigation Act,' the
213 proper investigating official shall investigate the cause of fetal death and shall prepare
214 and file the report within 30 days; and
215 (4) When a spontaneous fetal death occurs in a moving conveyance and the fetus is first
216 removed from the conveyance in this state or when a dead fetus is found in this state and
217 the place of fetal death is unknown, the fetal death shall be reported in this state. The
218 place where the fetus was first removed from the conveyance or the dead fetus was found
219 shall be considered the place of fetal death."


And there's more.. but that there is the basics.

[Icymudpuppy]

Some Orwellian stuff going on right there. Producing children is your duty to the party.

[moostraks]

Some Orwellian stuff going on right there. Producing children is your duty to the party.

"26) The act of prenatal murder has caused a significant reduction in the number of
citizens in this state who would serve as workers, entrepreneurs, teachers, employees, and
employers who would have significantly contributed to the prosperity and continuation
of this state;"

This part was particularly offensive to me in regards to reasoning for protection of life. Your children are state property protected for the purpose of benefiting the prosperity and continuity of the state. Erghh!!!!!

[amy31416]

235 Said title is further amended by revising subsection (a) of Code Section 31-10-29, relating
236 to privileged nature of disclosures, notification of local registrar of institutional deaths and
237 fetal deaths, and notification of the board of voting registrars of adult deaths, as follows:
238 "(a) Any person having knowledge or facts concerning any birth, death, spontaneous fetal
239 death, marriage, induced termination of pregnancy, divorce, dissolution of marriage, or
240 annulment may disclose such facts to the state registrar, and such disclosure shall be
241 absolutely privileged and no cause or action may be brought or maintained against such
242 person for such disclosure."

How could that possibly be abused?

[ChaosControl]

I don't see how a life is uniquely human before said human is aware of themselves or things around them. Before that, the mass of cells which some call 'human life' is functioning like the fictional zombie, the cells function, the cells are alive, but there's no 'person' inside, or at least it can't be proven that I'm aware of. Is it fair to take the life away from a human before they become aware of them self when there is the potential for human awareness and life? Well no, it isn't fair, the idea can be scary for some. But what is the difference when that potential life ends? This potential life exists during intercourse, and it exists before that and it exists all around us, but for simplicity sake, a condom is a direction action to aid in the ending of potential human life and has zero difference, as far as I'm concerned, from ending the potential human life before it is aware of itself.

I do not believe being self aware is what makes one human.
And I distinguish life from potential life. A semen is potential life, but it is not human life. The change from potential life to human life occurs at conception, that is the point where unique human DNA exists.

An unborn dying is the same as a born dying. The unborn to the born is the same as the infant to the toddler. It is just an earlier stage of development, but it is no less human.

The life ending is sad regardless the circumstance, but it is treated differently in different situations. If an accident occurs and the infant or toddler dies, that is tragic, but it was no one's fault and nothing can be done to change things. A miscarriage is comparable to that. An abortion is comparable to taking the infant or toddler and throwing them into a river because you were sick of them being in your home. It is murder, it is the intentional destruction of an innocent life.

[dannno]

I do not believe being self aware is what makes one human.

I do, and many others do as well.. afterall it is pretty logical that a human that isn't aware is pretty much the same as a rock.. I have more in common with a fly than a human DNA that has no ability to perceive anything..




And I distinguish life from potential life. A semen is potential life, but it is not human life. The change from potential life to human life occurs at conception, that is the point where unique human DNA exists.

I have no problem with people creating unique human DNA and destroying it as long as it never becomes aware, because it is at that point they really become human.




An unborn dying is the same as a born dying. The unborn to the born is the same as the infant to the toddler. It is just an earlier stage of development, but it is no less human.



I still haven't seen a convincing difference between using a condom to prevent unique DNA from forming and killing that unique DNA before it becomes aware.

[moostraks]

How could that possibly be abused?

I had neighbors in Georgia who would call animal control and tell them I had 26 cats running around outside (I didn't have any cats there they just hated us. It started with a chain link fence we put in.). I can only imagine how much fun they could have getting people investigated for these types of allegations. And how exactly are they going to investigate? Mandatory internal exams for suspected miscarriage? Much less why is the other stuff included? Won't a registrar be aware of divorce and marriage? I can't even fathom the reasoning for this inclusion other than to give immunity for people snooping/lying about their neighbors to garner more business for the investigators.

[Yieu]

Dannno, the child becomes 'human' once a soul enters the flesh. A soul enters the flesh at conception. Being aware is not necessary for life to exist; the presence of a soul is evidence there is life. This applied equally to all species.

[teacherone]

I do, and many others do as well.. afterall it is pretty logical that a human that isn't aware is pretty much the same as a rock.. I have more in common with a fly than a human DNA that has no ability to perceive anything..

The predictable response to this is -- Should we euthenise retards and our grannies with Alzheimers?

This is why this issue is impossible-- no one can say when life begins.

The only thing that one can prove is that these types of bills are dangerous and antithetical to liberty altogether.

[ChaosControl]

No argument is going to change your mind because your perception is than human life is based purely upon self awareness. It is meaningless to discuss it in that sense.
So I'd guess though you'd be against abortion once the child is self aware? That seems your definition of personhood rather than anything biological.

[dannno]

Dannno, the child becomes 'human' once a soul enters the flesh. A soul enters the flesh at conception. Being aware is not necessary for life to exist; the presence of a soul is evidence there is life. This applied equally to all species.

Ya, see, that's the thing. I'm agnostic.. but even the "spiritual" side of me doesn't believe that the soul enters the flesh at conception. I think it comes by later on. In fact, that belief of mine happens to be backed up by passages in the Bible, not that I believe everything in the Bible is correct or translated properly.. But there is a passage that says "The blood is the life", and fetuses don't have blood very early on in the pregnancy.

[ChaosControl]

This is why this issue is impossible-- no one can say when life begins.
Yes we can, it begins when it biologically begins. When a unique personal DNA is formed, at conception. Anything else is just an arbitrary date used to justify actions of self convenience.

[dannno]

No argument is going to change your mind because your perception is than human life is based purely upon self awareness. It is meaningless to discuss it in that sense.
So I'd guess though you'd be against abortion once the child is self aware? That seems your definition of personhood rather than anything biological.

Ya, I'm against abortion after the fetus becomes aware, I just don't know if I want to pay a bunch of people to enforce that as a law. You have to think about the consequences. Ultimately the woman is at fault, I don't buy that the people helping the woman should be held more liable than her.. She could do it herself, but since many women injur themselves doing it other people have decided that it is best they do it safely if they are going to do it. So she's basically hiring a hitman, and in those cases the person hiring the hitman gets in as much or more trouble than the hitman. So now you have a situation where, say, 19 year old girl is in a 4 year school program and doesn't want a kid right now, so she has an abortion.. Then what do you do, put her in jail? What if you just left her alone to live her life and she ended up having 5 kids? Those 5 kids were prevented from existing by putting her in jail.. So it's like aborting 6 kids when you could have kept it down to 1 kid..

I would rather use education about natural abortive remedies to ensure it can happen as cheaply and as early as possible than use law enforcement.

[dannno]

Yes we can, it begins when it biologically begins. When a unique personal DNA is formed, at conception. Anything else is just an arbitrary date used to justify actions of self convenience.

I think conception is an arbitrary date.. life began billions of years ago, life is a continuation of life, the question to me is when does the individual's human experience begin?

[Anti Federalist]

Yet another example of criminalizing what is a normal (and devastating to the people involved) everyday occurrence.

But so be it.

I'm of the mindset nothing will change unless and until enough people get smacked by the police state hammer that they get woken up out of their stupor.

Imagine the cops SWAT raiding and dragging off to prison some poor mother who just lost her child.

Then again, the idiots might cheer.

[Anti Federalist]

I had neighbors in Georgia who would call animal control and tell them I had 26 cats running around outside (I didn't have any cats there they just hated us. It started with a chain link fence we put in.). I can only imagine how much fun they could have getting people investigated for these types of allegations. And how exactly are they going to investigate? Mandatory internal exams for suspected miscarriage? Much less why is the other stuff included? Won't a registrar be aware of divorce and marriage? I can't even fathom the reasoning for this inclusion other than to give immunity for people snooping/lying about their neighbors to garner more business for the investigators.

The vast majority of Gestapo informers were not full-term informers working undercover, but were rather ordinary citizens who for whatever reason chose to denounce those they knew to the Gestapo.[18]

[Pericles]

Yet another example of criminalizing what is a normal (and devastating to the people involved) everyday occurrence.

But so be it.

I'm of the mindset nothing will change unless and until enough people get smacked by the police state hammer that they get woken up out of their stupor.

Imagine the cops SWAT raiding and dragging off to prison some poor mother who just lost her child.

Then again, the idiots might cheer.

What I find troubling is the extent to which even those who conceptually believe in liberty are willing to allow government to enforce their ethical and moral choices on others.

[Yieu]

Then again, the idiots might cheer.

That's the worst part of all such stories. :(

[Jinks]

the logical extension of pro-life is exactly that, Uterus Police.

[ChaosControl]

What if you just left her alone to live her life and she ended up having 5 kids? Those 5 kids were prevented from existing by putting her in jail.. So it's like aborting 6 kids when you could have kept it down to 1 kid..
Again you're confusing "potential" life with already created life. That is the same as saying by not going to the bar tonight and meeting some chick who would have given birth to 10 children that I aborted 10 children. Perhaps the most ridiculous pro-abortion argument I've ever heard of. It makes no sense whatsoever.


I think conception is an arbitrary date.. life began billions of years ago, life is a continuation of life, the question to me is when does the individual's human experience begin?
I'm not talking about life in general, there is no age on life as a whole, it has no beginning or end. It is pointless to measure. I am talking about an individual human's life. That begins at conception, there is nothing arbitrary about it, that is the first moment that single unique dna exists. It doesn't change after, it only grows. It didn't exist before. No other date makes any sense except to make excuses for actions.

Fine if you want to believe humanity doesn't begin until one is self-aware, but that unique biological lifeform still began at conception.

[ChaosControl]

the logical extension of pro-life is exactly that, Uterus Police.

Only to the ignorant pro-abortion side that has absolutely no understanding whatsoever of the pro-life side.

[angelatc]

FrankRep and AquaBuddha2010, this is not about protecting the unborn, this is about the State scrutinizing, spying upon, and potentially prosecuting innocent individuals. If you are really concerned about individuals who try to harm their unborn, you can rest assured that regardless of the State, God will sort it out in the end. Sins do not go unpunished.

Obamacare ends any shred of privacy that anybody had with his or her MD. Might as well get used to that right now.

[Jinks]

Only to the ignorant pro-abortion side that has absolutely no understanding whatsoever of the pro-life side.

explain to me how you can be pro-life, but not pro-uterus police?

Let's get some questions out first, do you believe in criminalizing abortion?