Wisconsin Gov. Warns 12,000 State Workers Could be Fired Without Budget Deal

[FrankRep]

http://dailyreporter.com/files/2010/11/wisconsin-walker.jpg


12K State Workers Could Be Fired Without Budget Deal, Wisconsin Governor Warns (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/20/12g-state-workers-fired-budget-deal-wisconsin-governor-warns/)


Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/20/12g-state-workers-fired-budget-deal-wisconsin-governor-warns/), All Voices (http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/8247529-wisconsin-governor-warns-12000-state-workers-could-be-fired)
February 20, 2011

If changes aren't made to the benefit contributions paid by Wisconsin's nearly 300,000 public sector employees, about 10,000-12,000 workers will lose their jobs, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker warned Sunday.


Fleeing Wisconsin Democrats could hide for days, weeks (http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-spokane/fleeing-wisconsin-democrats-could-hide-for-days-weeks)

On Thursday, Wisconsin Senate Democrats tucked tail and ran like a pack of scalded dogs from the state Capitol, refusing to do the job they were elected to do.

Friday morning, TMJ reported that Governor Scott Walker sent state troopers out in an attempt to round up at least one Democrat so the Senate can vote on the Governor's budget repair bill.



Wisconsin governor: 'We're going to take this as long as it takes' (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/145313-wis-governor-were-going-to-take-this-as-long-as-it-takes)


Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker (R) is not planning to make concessions to end the budget standoff any time soon, he indicated on "Fox News Sunday."

"We're going to take this as long as it takes," he said. "In the end we're doing the right thing for Wisconsin."


Flashback:

Sept. 12, 2010: Next Wisconsin governor faces big deficit (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/102748564.html)



Meanwhile:

National Guard May Deploy as Socialists, Unions Wreak Havoc in Wisconsin
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?280221-National-Guard-May-Deploy-as-Socialists-Unions-Wreak-Havoc-in-Wisconsin

Wisconsin Socialists Want Egypt-style Revolution
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?280341-Wisconsin-Socialists-Want-Egypt-style-Revolution-Video

Communist Protester in Wisconsin: 'People Are Open' to a 'Revolutionary Movement'
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?280393-Communist-Protester-in-Wisconsin-People-Are-Open-to-a-Revolutionary-Movement

[pcosmar]

Fire them already. screw the empty threats.
Hire back any necessary at a market wage and don't hire back those that aren't absolutely needed.

[Maximus]

This is getting good

[Hallamaat]

Holy crap.

[coastie]

Fire them already. screw the empty threats.
Hire back any necessary at a market wage and don't hire back those that aren't absolutely needed.

No shit, this isn't that complicated. People are slowly waking up, I've awoken several on this issue by simply pointing out that there is no money, these people(leeches) are in the minority, are in direct violation of their contracts, and just don't want to change. They could give two shits about the students or the taxpayers that pay their salaries and benefits that far outpace what said taxpayers are making. Good teachers teach because it's their passion-not for the lavish pensions and health benefits.

Hell, the MSM is even covering the blatant involvement with Obama's little political factions, fraud with fake/real Dr. notes....:eek::eek::mad:

[Philhelm]

Word on the street is that there are plenty of unemployed folks that would gladly take their jobs for less.

[FrankRep]

Reagan Flashback:

Ronald Reagan's ultimatum to striking air traffic controllers
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan%27s_ultimatum_to_striking_air_traffi c_controllers

[RonPaulCult]

Word on the street is that there are plenty of unemployed folks that would gladly take their jobs for less.

Thank you. Exactly

[helmuth_hubener]

I'm with Maximus: This is getting good! I'm starting to think this Scott Walker guy is the real deal. Well, time will tell. I hope he will stand his ground. I'd love to see, finally, someone in a position where standing their ground will make a difference, actually stand that ground. Wisconsin has line-item veto. The governor has tons of power; too much, in my opinion, but in this case it could work out in the favor of the good. This guy Walker could shut the entire gov't down! Do it, Walker! Fire 'em all! I want to see every teacher in the state out on the street with a pan, begging change.

[bwlibertyman]

bump

[ItsTime]

Fire them all.

[FrankRep]

The Wisconsin Bill: What Does It Do? (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/02/028414.php)

Power Line
February 20, 2011


Here's what Governor Walker's Budget Repair Bill that they're so angry about actually does:



- Ask government workers to pay half the cost of their pensions - still less than private employees pay for their pensions

- Ask government workers to pay 12% of their own health insurance premiums - the national average for the private sector is over 20%

- End collective bargaining for government unions for pensions and benefits. Allow bargaining only for raises that are less than inflation.

- End forced union dues, collected by the state. Union dues would become voluntary.

- Union members get to vote yearly on whether to keep their union.


Are those significant reforms? Absolutely. Hence the desperation on the Left to frustrate them. But in talking about what is at stake, it is helpful to be concrete about what the legislation would actually do.

[S.Shorland]

Well it looks like a very fair bill to me.I was just watching a liberal magazine editor being interviewed on aljazeera english,on livestation (many free stations,mostly news but worth a look if you want a different perspective from american outlets perhaps).He was saying it was the end of the world.Saying that labor was waking up and they weren't going to take it.

[helmuth_hubener]

Saying that labor was waking up and they weren't going to take it. Good! Don't take it! Bring on the fight. The People vs. the Parasites, long-overdue grudge match at last! To the death! Pound these suckers DOWN!

OK, got a little excited there.

[FrankRep]

Factbox: Details of Wisconsin proposal on Public Unions (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/20/us-wisconsin-proposal-factbox-idUSTRE71J1RI20110220)


Reuters
Feb 20, 2011


Wisconsin's capital Madison was besieged by protesters this week as tens of thousands of state workers demonstrated against a Republican spending bill. Here is what Republican Gov. Scott Walker has proposed:


* State workers must increase contributions to their pensions to 5.8 percent of salary, and double contributions to their health insurance premiums to 12.6 percent. This would result in a cut in take-home pay of about 8 percent.

* Walker wants to limit collective bargaining to the issue of wages, and cap wage increases to the rate of inflation, with a voter referendum needed for larger increases.

* Walker's proposal would also prohibit employer collection of union dues and members of collective bargaining units would not be required to pay dues. Contracts would be limited to one year, and collective bargaining units would have to take annual votes to maintain certification as a union.

* Walker said collective bargaining takes too long and the cuts need to be made immediately. He said the alternative is layoffs of more than 10,000 workers.

* Certain employees, including local law enforcement and fire employees, would be exempt from the collective bargaining changes.

[LibertyRevolution]

I stand with the unions on this one.
It is not right for the government to pass a law limiting your rights to collective bargaining.

If the government doesn't like the contract, then they can fire them all.
If they don't want to lose all their employees, then they must agree to the demands of the employees contract.
This is the entire reason behind having a union!

Do I think all these socialist should be fired and replaced? Well of course I do. SO FIRE THEM ALL.

P.S. It is not like you can hire some unemployed smuck to be a teacher, there are requirements to be a teacher.

[Melissa]

I stand with the unions on this one.
It is not right for the government to pass a law limiting your rights to collective bargaining.

If the government doesn't like the contract, then they can fire them all.
If they don't want to lose all their employees, then agree must agree to the demands of the employees contract.
This is the entire reason behind having a union!

Do I think all these socialist should be fired and replaced? Well of course I do. SO FIRE THEM ALL.

P.S. It is not like you can hire some unemployed smuck to be a teacher, there are requirements to be a teacher.

I am still looking at all the info to form a opinion but was curious about your post in the sense when you said the government should not pass a law to not allow people to be able to collective bargin...my question to you does it make a difference that the group in question is not a private group of workers but state paid workers so would it not make sense that the state can make laws about how it is run

[silverhandorder]

Government is not taking away their right to collectively bargain, they are simply refusing to negotiate with them collectively.

[low preference guy]

Government is not taking away their right to collectively bargain, they are simply refusing to negotiate with them collectively.

The two actions have the same effect, but the bill actually says that they take away the right to collectively bargain.

[FrankRep]

The two actions have the same effect, but bill actually says that they take away the right to collectively bargain.

Collective Bargaining shouldn't be a "Right" in the first place.

[pcosmar]

P.S. It is not like you can hire some unemployed smuck to be a teacher, there are requirements to be a teacher.

And just who created these requirements, and the regulations? (answer; teachers unions)
Screw it. Close the schools. Sell the buildings. Turn them into factories.
let parents be responsible to educate their children.

[low preference guy]

Collective Bargaining shouldn't be a "Right" in the first place.

It actually is a right, meaning that if a group of people decide to negotiate collectively and the other party accepts, the government shouldn't interfere.

[Humanae Libertas]

Hopefully the governor doesn't cave in into the socialists' demands.

[FrankRep]

It actually is a right, meaning that if a group of people decide to negotiate collectively and the other party accepts, the government shouldn't interfere.

They can TRY to Collectively Bargain, but they have no special "Rights" to do so.

[low preference guy]

They can TRY to Collectively Bargain

Right, and government shouldn't stop them from trying. That means that they have a right to collectively bargain.

Think about freedom of association. You have a right to freedom of association, which includes the right to try to associate with anyone you want without the government stopping you.

You have a right to do anything that isn't aggression or theft or breaking of contracts, collective bargaining included.

[ItsTime]

You have a right to do anything that isn't aggression or theft or breaking of contracts, collective bargaining included.

Collective bargaining over the tax rate IS theft. Bargaining over any taxation IS THEFT.

[pcosmar]

It actually is a right, meaning that if a group of people decide to negotiate collectively and the other party accepts, the government shouldn't interfere.

True, but the employer (government) is also in their "right" to refuse. And to set terms of employment.

[low preference guy]

Collective bargaining over the tax rate IS theft. Bargaining over any taxation IS THEFT.

Asking to be paid money is not theft. Actually paying stolen money is what's wrong.

[ItsTime]

Asking to be paid money is not theft.

Asking to have the government steal on your behalf IS THEFT.

[pcosmar]

Asking to be paid money is not theft.

Asking and demanding are 2 different things.

[low preference guy]

True, but the employer (government) is also in their "right" to refuse. And to set terms of employment.

Of course.

[low preference guy]

Asking to have the government steal on your behalf IS THEFT.

Ok, so you're saying that free speech should be restricted to only people who advocate for the abolition of taxes?

All the other people are "stealing" when they're advocating for taxes, according to your definition.

[ItsTime]

Ok, so you're saying the free speech should be restricted to only people who advocate for the abolition of taxes?

All the other people are "stealing" when they're advocating for taxes, according to your definition.

My god, read your own avatar LOL. Sure they have the right to ask the government to steal, and in this case the government is saying NO. Now they have to deal with it.

[angelatc]

I stand with the unions on this one.
It is not right for the government to pass a law limiting your rights to collective bargaining.

.

Well, then the answer is for the unions to refuse to work under those horrifying, draconian conditions. When the state encounters a labor shortage, they'll be forced to change their hiring practices.

Until then, there are plenty of unemployed and recently graduated teachers who would jump ship and start teaching in the public schools. The kids will be alright.

[low preference guy]

Sure they have the right to ask the government to steal, and in this case the government is saying NO.

That exactly has been my point all along.

You contradicted yourself and now are asking me to read my avatar? Why?

[kahless]

The teachers and unions are just a bunch of leeches and parasites that believe they have a right to other people’s money. Their greed is making the taxpayers subservient and drives poor people (including Seniors) from their homes due to increased property taxes. They stand in the way of freedom for millions in Wisconsin.

The solutions are simple. 1. Dissolve the parasitic unions. These unions should not even exist since these are government employees. The voters are the union. Ban unions from interfering in private business which leads me to number 2.

2. Fire all the teachers and privatize the schools. Sell the schools to the highest bidder and allow them to compete. There will be plenty of jobs for these teachers through the new privatized schools. Parents will now have school choice which they should pay for rather than force others to carry the burden paying for their childrens education.

3. Wisconsin should pay out the pensions to the teachers in full and call it a day. If the money is not there then the state should not steal it from the taxpayers. Sorry, because the state screwed up I should not be forced to pay for your retirement. I do not see teachers or these unions paying for mine.

[angelatc]

It actually is a right, meaning that if a group of people decide to negotiate collectively and the other party accepts, the government shouldn't interfere.

But in this instance the other party is the government, and they're saying that they're not accepting.

[low preference guy]

But in this instance the other party is the government, and they're saying that they're not accepting.

Sure, and their right to bargain is not violated in any way when the government doesn't accept to negotiate with them.

[ItsTime]

That exactly has been my point all along.

You contradicted yourself and now are asking me to read my avatar? Why?

You're right I did contradict myself, the do not have the right to ask someone to steal for them. My bad.

"Don't steal, the government hates competition"

[FrankRep]

The teachers and unions are just a bunch of leeches and parasites that believe they have a right to other people’s money. Their greed is making the taxpayers subservient and drives poor people (including Seniors) from the homes due to increased property taxes. They stand in the way of freedom for millions in Wisconsin.

The solutions are simple. 1. Dissolve the parasitic unions. These unions should not even exist since these are government employees. The voters are the union. Ban unions from interfering in private business which leads me to number 2.

2. Fire all the teachers and privatize the schools. Sell the schools to the highest bidder and allow them to compete. There will be plenty of jobs for these teachers through the new privatized schools. Parents will now have school choice which they should pay for rather than force others to carry the burden paying for their childrens education.

I don't support this.

[kahless]

I don't support this.

Which part? Why should I be forced to pay for the education and retirement of others? Wisconsin is going to have to steal from the taxpayer to pay for these parasites. We do not need unions since labor laws already exist.

[Lovecraftian4Paul]

Can the parasites. These public sector unions need their backbones snapped in two. Union membership is at historic lows. We have the rare privilege of living in a time when, with a few tough actions, we might be able to send the labor union the way of the Medieval guild. Collective "bargaining" is incipient Bolshevism.

[Mark37snj]

It actually is a right, meaning that if a group of people decide to negotiate collectively and the other party accepts, the government shouldn't interfere.

But the goverment IS the other party, so don't they get a say on agreeing or not agreeing. They are now choosing to not accept.

[S.Shorland]

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/19/badger-state-battle-unions-vs-tea-party-in-wisconsin-runaway-dems-could-be-awol-for-weeks/

Doctors giving out fake sicknotes to teachers in the middle of a demonstration and the Republicans being forced to adjourn because the police couldn't guarantee to protect them from credible threats.

[Mark37snj]

What Collective Bargaining does is increase the negotiating power of the Unions dramatically. It's like if Google employees wanted a raise. The Google execs would half to deal with a Union with the power of over 10 times the total number and union members and dues that Google has and contributes. Thats because the Union also, under collective bargaining laws, represents Microsoft, GM, Home Depot, Walmart, etc etc. And if the Google employess don't get what they want the Union has the "UNFAIR" power to call work stopages and other actions with all its Union members. Why should the Google execs tolerate such a biased system against them? They don't half to, they have rights too, and so do state tax payers.

Edit: spelling and grammer

[HOLLYWOOD]

Latest news from Wisconsin: http://article.wn.com/view/2011/02/20/Madison_Protests_Continue_But_Governor_Scott_Walke r_Is_Unmov/

AFSCME working with Democratic legislature to kill the bill first, THEN, RECALL governor Walker.

http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=1&subcatid=70&threadid=5114727

Kennedy screwed this all up by allowing Unions in government in the first place. Hysteresis Loop of both feeding off each other at our expense. Just look at the dilemma which government pensions alone across the nation. Even in Texas the accounting fraud of government is now catching up on them and their supporters (Government Unions/Special Interest). The power needs to be taken away from all of them.


LOLZ...
http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/c2c/share/27/272/267/2726755_140.jpg
(http://www.care2.com/news/member/864072146/2726755) Rage Against The Machine Guitarist Tom Morello Coming To Wisconsin: 'Madison Is The Next Cairo' (http://www.care2.com/news/member/864072146/2726755)
US Politics & Gov't (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political) (tags: : Afl-Cio (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/%3A%20Afl-Cio), Afscme (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Afscme), Cairo Protests (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Cairo%20Protests), Egypt Protests (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Egypt%20Protests), Egypt Protests 2011 (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Egypt%20Protests%202011), Labor Protests (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Labor%20Protests), Rage Against The Machine (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Rage%20Against%20The%20Machine), Seiu (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Seiu), Tahrir Square (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Tahrir%20Square), The Nightwatchman (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/The%20Nightwatchman), Tom Morello (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Tom%20Morello), Tom Morello Wisconsin (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Tom%20Morello%20Wisconsin), Union Protests (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Union%20Protests), Wisconsin (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Wisconsin), Wisconsin Cairo (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Wisconsin%20Cairo), Wisconsin Egypt (http://www.care2.com/news/submitted/category/political/Wisconsin%20Egypt) )
http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/c2c/profiles/86/864/407/864072146_60x60.jpg (http://www.care2.com/news/member/864072146)

The background soundtrack of Bruce Springsteen, Journey and even the Beastie Boys has blasted from speakers as marchers walk around chanting "Kill the bill!" and "Recall Walker!" Live music is coming Mon, a concert with RATM gutarist Tom Morello.

[ItsTime]

The recall will backfire on them and make them look like an even bigger joke. No one is taking these people serious. They are whining about money while there is 20% unemployment. They are coming off as very greedy and hate filled.

[QueenB4Liberty]

The recall will backfire on them and make them look like an even bigger joke. No one is taking these people serious. They are whining about money while there is 20% unemployment. They are coming off as very greedy and hate filled.

Yup. When they all get fired for their stupidity that'll only make the unemployment rate go higher.

[Philhelm]

Yup. When they all get fired for their stupidity that'll only make the unemployment rate go higher.

No, the employment will just shift. Perhaps people who had chosen the education field, yet cannot find a job at present, will be grateful to find employment in their chosen profession. I'm sure that there are plenty of would-be teachers who would be itching to fill the vacant spots.

[FrankRep]

Walker: Layoff notices may start Monday if stalemate continues; protests good for business in Madison, more state briefs
http://www.rivertowns.net/event/article/id/233684/

Wisconsin governor warns of layoff notices
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7440307.html



Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker warned Tuesday that state employees could start receiving layoff notices as early as next week if a bill eliminating most collective bargaining rights isn't passed soon.

[JK/SEA]

Fire all the teachers. Hell, anyone can be a teacher, and do it for minimum wages...i know of some people who have 'problems' with alcohol, but are very smart who could do the job. Might even be a few people who 'loves' kids..wink wink..who are also quite intelligent. Who needs a degree...?...simple job teaching kids from abusive homes with parents who can barely speak english and then the 'parents' who only have kids because its fun to fuck and get stoned all day and don't feed their kids...hell, anyone can teach...

[Philhelm]

Fire all the teachers. Hell, anyone can be a teacher, and do it for minimum wages...i know of some people who have 'problems' with alcohol, but are very smart who could do the job. Might even be a few people who 'loves' kids..wink wink..who are also quite intelligent. Who needs a degree...?...simple job teaching kids from abusive homes with parents who can barely speak english and then the 'parents' who only have kids because its fun to fuck and get stoned all day and don't feed their kids...hell, anyone can teach...

The job isn't all that mystifying. It's not like they aren't handed a curriculum and given text books to teach from.

[amy31416]

The job isn't all that mystifying. It's not like they aren't handed a curriculum and given text books to teach from.

Dude, c'mon. It takes 4 years of undergrad, and two years to get a master's degree in order to adequately learn how to glue macaroni to cardboard and make paper snowflakes.

(Just kidding...but seriously, elementary education majors spent a LOT of time doing stupid crap like that.)

[specsaregood]

Wisconsin governor warns of layoff notices
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7440307.html




We'd love to come back today," said Democratic Sen. Jon Erpenbach, one of the 14 who went to Illinois. "We could be up there this afternoon and pass this if he would agree to removing the language that has absolutely nothing to do with balancing the budget."


So the Gov. should say, "sure I'll remove it, come back and vote". Then when they come back across the stateline, don't remove it and drag them back to vote in handcuffs.

[Matt Collins]

Governor Walker of Wisconsin is lying about the union problem:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRFDyqqdwPo

[Zulske]

The PEOPLE have the right to voluntary association and collectively bargain for better wages and work conditions.

Once you are a public worker, you are NOT the people, you are the government, you work FOR the People that pays your salary. Public workers union should be extincted.

[JK/SEA]

Dude, c'mon. It takes 4 years of undergrad, and two years to get a master's degree in order to adequately learn how to glue macaroni to cardboard and make paper snowflakes.

(Just kidding...but seriously, elementary education majors spent a LOT of time doing stupid crap like that.)

Gotta say i'm disappointed in some of the comments regarding teachers, and what is REALLY required to teach children from ..broken homes...immigrant children...drug families...and on and on....then to marginilize teachers as people with gluing macaroni and paper snowflake as flakes, just shows me how clueless some of you are. Teaching our children is not easy, and is not a black and white ideal.

Teachers spend ZERO time with macaroni and paper 'projects' while in college. I'm married to a 4th grade teacher...no surprise right?...and she works in a low income grade school...title one, where over half the students, 61%, are on free or reduced lunch due to income levels. Needless to say, compared to schools that have high income level students, the disparity in test scores and grades is like night and day. Rich or well of students do much better....i wonder why?...

So please get off this BS about you all thinking you know anything about schools or teaching. My wife was a CUM LAUDE, or a 4 point grade average, and is a Ron Paul supporter as am i.

[amy31416]

Gotta say i'm disappointed in some of the comments regarding teachers, and what is REALLY required to teach children from ..broken homes...immigrant children...drug families...and on and on....then to marginilize teachers as people with gluing macaroni and paper snowflake as flakes, just shows me how clueless some of you are. Teaching our children is not easy, and is not a black and white ideal.

Teachers spend ZERO time with macaroni and paper 'projects' while in college. I'm married to a 4th grade teacher...no surprise right?...and she works in a low income grade school...title one, where over half the students, 61%, are on free or reduced lunch due to income levels. Needless to say, compared to schools that have high income level students, the disparity in test scores and grades is like night and day. Rich or well of students do much better....i wonder why?...

So please get off this BS about you all thinking you know anything about schools or teaching. My wife was a CUM LAUDE, or a 4 point grade average, and is a Ron Paul supporter as am i.

Listen...I did say "just kidding" because I know that there's a hell of a lot more to it than that. However, elementary education majors DO spend a lot of time with macaroni and glitter, and I saw it with my own eyes--often. One of my oldest friends is an elementary teacher in a crappy public school, and she's quite brilliant. Even she has said, many times, that the elementary ed degree is mostly bullshit (her undergrad is in English lit, minor in history).

While what I said about macaroni is a comical exaggeration, your comment that ZERO time is spent with a bunch of asinine macaroni and glitter projects is incorrect. Though I do understand the need to defend your wife (and maybe her undergrad isn't in elementary ed?)

[moostraks]

Governor Walker of Wisconsin is lying about the union problem:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRFDyqqdwPo

This will not be a win for liberty lovers. You will still have over reaching government invasiveness , but the enforcers will be lower waged and more desperate and there will be even more disparity between the elite and the rest of us. When they start actually decreasing the size and scope of government then maybe we can hope for a turn around. The whole situation seems like a rerun of the banker bailout with the top tier getting more power and money...

[JK/SEA]

Listen...I did say "just kidding" because I know that there's a hell of a lot more to it than that. However, elementary education majors DO spend a lot of time with macaroni and glitter, and I saw it with my own eyes--often. One of my oldest friends is an elementary teacher in a crappy public school, and she's quite brilliant. Even she has said, many times, that the elementary ed degree is mostly bullshit (her undergrad is in English lit, minor in history).

While what I said about macaroni is a comical exaggeration, your comment that ZERO time is spent with a bunch of asinine macaroni and glitter projects is incorrect. Though I do understand the need to defend your wife (and maybe her undergrad isn't in elementary ed?)

My wife spent ZERO time in college with macaroni projects, glitter, or anything else remotely connected to ART projects. Of course this was Western Washington University in Washington State, so i'm not sure if the colleges you refer to were accredited as colleges that teaches for real future teachers.

[ravedown]

if the state signed a contract with its employees then it should honor that contract, flat out. sell off what you don't need, cut programs etc, but honor the contract for its full term and pay the people what you promised until the contract expires. and next time...forget the unions and create new hiring procedures and salary scale. thats whats happening at the local govt where i live and i think thats the right approach.

[ravedown]

My wife spent ZERO time in college with macaroni projects, glitter, or anything else remotely connected to ART projects. Of course this was Western Washington University in Washington State, so i'm not sure if the colleges you refer to were accredited as colleges that teaches for real future teachers.

bellingham is a great town.

[JK/SEA]

bellingham is a great town.

Whatcom County was a powerhouse for Ron Paul. Lots of meetup groups and some great activists there.

My wife got a degree in Early Childhood Development, which entails actual education of kids to the 8th grade. Reading ,writing, math, critical thinking etc..... She doesn't have her credentials to teach high school.

[Chieppa1]

I live in NJ, same situation as Wisconsin. There is a whole college graduated class of my peers that came out wanting to be teachers. Of course they blame Christie and government for them not having a job, not the Union. Fire these people, let the new teachers take over. Not like they are allowed to actually "mold minds".

[Reason]

/popcorn

[JK/SEA]

I live in NJ, same situation as Wisconsin. There is a whole college graduated class of my peers that came out wanting to be teachers. Of course they blame Christie and government for them not having a job, not the Union. Fire these people, let the new teachers take over. Not like they are allowed to actually "mold minds".

lol....mold minds?...what the hell does that even mean?...you go to GRADE school to learn to...READ...WRITE...LEARN BASIC MATH, and some SCIENCE...because of no child left behind, and the out cry of low grades and test scores, teachers are having to focus on basics, and what everyone expects kids should learn. Things like history are taught in middle school and high school.

As to firing ALL current teachers and replacing them with younger teachers who couldn't get a teaching job for whatever reason.......yeah...go for it...i want to see the chaos that it WILL create, then maybe it will shut the mouths of people who think they know whats going on in regards to schools, and teaching...meanwhile, we will get some REALLY dumbed down people on the fast track to welfare...or worse.

[Slutter McGee]

if the state signed a contract with its employees then it should honor that contract, flat out. sell off what you don't need, cut programs etc, but honor the contract for its full term and pay the people what you promised until the contract expires. and next time...forget the unions and create new hiring procedures and salary scale. thats whats happening at the local govt where i live and i think thats the right approach.

Lets say a CEO is an idiot, and decides to provide benefits to his employees far exceeding the amount of profits his company takes in.

A new CEO is hired, and he says, look you can either renogtiate this and take far less, or I will fire you.

This is what is going on, and I see no problem with it.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

[ravedown]

Lets say a CEO is an idiot, and decides to provide benefits to his employees far exceeding the amount of profits his company takes in.

A new CEO is hired, and he says, look you can either renogtiate this and take far less, or I will fire you.

This is what is going on, and I see no problem with it.


Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

i agree...and if the new ceo breaks the contract, then i also support the employees suing for breach of contract and letting the courts settle the matter.

[specsaregood]

//

[Original_Intent]

Close all the government schools and tell parents that educating their offspring is their responsibility. Either teach them yourself, or pay someone to do it, or don't do it at all. TNOP.

[puppetmaster]

i agree...and if the new ceo breaks the contract, then i also support the employees suing for breach of contract and letting the courts settle the matter.

I am sure their contract does not have a "no fire" stipulation. This means he can fire and rehire without recourse.

[JK/SEA]

In NJ, my wife's old kindergarten teacher is still working, and making 115k/year + cadillac healthcare plan + huge ass pension. This is due to the mandated 4% salary increase every year. (until christie stopped it this year).
I could hire at least 2 just as good kindergarten teachers (probably 3) for that.

My God!..how dare she get a Teaching degree...which ain't free BTW...and work her way to the top. Great idea... Punish those who earned and WORKED their way UP.. Maybe you think we should tax rich PEOPLE too?

And while we're on the subject, did you know MOST teachers are REQUIRED to take Professional Development classes during the SUMMER << to stay accredited, and take continuing education classes to stay current. Usually 15 credits every 5 years.

[AuH20]

The governor is clearly attempting to do the public sector unions a favor by salvaging their jobs. This pending legislation is simply curtailing CBA rights only for pension benefits and not wages. Clearly, this isn't a draconian measure given the double digit increases these workers are consistently awarded.

[Matt Collins]

this is causing us problems in TN with a special election...grr...


http://www.tennessean.com/article/20110215/HENDERSONVILLE01/110215059/2014/HENDERSONVILLE01/COLUMN-Kerry-Roberts-not-state-Senate-shoo-just-ask-him

[specsaregood]

//

[FrankRep]

Governor Walker of Wisconsin is lying about the union problem:

Mike Church criticizes Scott Walker for being too tame??

Chill out Mike!

[roho76]

On one hand the teachers should compete in a free market for their jobs/wages but on the other I think it's unfair to beat up teachers when the real problem is the Dept. Of Ed. I don't know the numbers but I'm sure half of the budget for public schools is lost in beuracracy. What do we need a school superintendent for? What is the purpose of an administrator building or the administrators who reside in them? I am not opposed to teachers making 6 figures but I am opposed to government monopolies like unions and the Dept. Of Ed using my children as a shield to bankrupt this country. Public sector unions aren't what needs to be outlawed what needs to be outlawed are the public sector jobs.

[Matt Collins]

Mike Church criticizes Scott Walker for being too tame??

Chill out Mike!Do you think Mike is wrong?

[FrankRep]

Do you think Mike is wrong?

Mike Church's approach is Too Fast and Too Extreme for Wisconsin. Gov. Walker's tame actions are causing an uproar just as it is.

[JK/SEA]

As the son of a elementary teacher, I'm quite aware of what is involved and required. And for the record, she thinks it is ridiculous as well and doesn't care for being forced into the teachers union.

Mandatory, automatic pay raises don't reward for "working their way up" or reward good work. It only rewards people for staying around.

I'm well aware of the politics involved in being an educator. If a Principal doesn't 'like' you for whatever reason, said Principal can screw with your career even if you are or are not a well qualified teacher. A poor evaluation here, or putting known poor students (several at a time, plus known troublemakers, creating an unfair imbalance...etc etc) My point is, its not all black and white, and thats where a Union can step in to rectify the situation.

Are there bad teachers?..hell yes. I know of several, and with the current economic situation, these types of teachers should be on the bubble, and time will tell if they get booted. Its not like anyone doesn't know about bad teachers, its more the problem of Administration to deal with it. But why punish all teachers because of a few bad ones?...Personally, i think people bad mouthing teachers are just ignorant, and this problem in Wisconsin is an easy no brainer. The Governor is a big dick head by not wanting to negotiate, because most teachers i know WOULD take a pay cut, and pay more for bennies but will not give up cb, unlike the LEO'S who seem to have it all their way...i say fire half the cops and keep teachers.

[Chieppa1]

In NJ, my wife's old kindergarten teacher is still working, and making 115k/year + cadillac healthcare plan + huge ass pension. This is due to the mandated 4% salary increase every year. (until christie stopped it this year).
I could hire at least 2 just as good kindergarten teachers (probably 3) for that.

This. Also, I went to private school 3 of 4 years of high school. I transferred into government school for my senior year and took wood shop and yawned my way to As in the rest of my joke courses. I graduated college with a History degree. I had to re-teach myself history in 4 years. Since, government school lies to kids. And I'm pretty bad at math. Because instead of continuing with actual math past freshman year, government schools teach up "math with applications" and other wastes of time. Proof is in how many of my peers (would be teachers) don't understand WE HAVE NO MONEY. They simple aren't taught how to understand it. So government schools in NJ are a complete joke. Teachers become "educators" here, that's when their ego and self-importance hits Nancy P. levels. They suck actual teaching out the schools and inject their social BS. Teachers then decide to work for these "educators" instead of going to a private school (where you make less) and actually have some freedom in the classroom.

I've seen it first hand, then they tell me its not about the money. Don't want to fire all the teachers? Simple. Cut salaries and benefits, and let the leeches quit and the market fill in. If they want to look me in the face and say "its for the children", then force them to prove it.

[JK/SEA]

This. Also, I went to private school 3 of 4 years of high school. I transferred into government school for my senior year and took wood shop and yawned my way to As in the rest of my joke courses. I graduated college with a History degree. I had to re-teach myself history in 4 years. Since, government school lies to kids. And I'm pretty bad at math. Because instead of continuing with actual math past freshman year, government schools teach up "math with applications" and other wastes of time. Proof is in how many of my peers (would be teachers) don't understand WE HAVE NO MONEY. They simple aren't taught how to understand it. So government schools in NJ are a complete joke. Teachers become "educators" here, that's when their ego and self-importance hits Nancy P. levels. They suck actual teaching out the schools and inject their social BS. Teachers then decide to work for these "educators" instead of going to a private school (where you make less) and actually have some freedom in the classroom.

I've seen it first hand, then they tell me its not about the money. Don't want to fire all the teachers? Simple. Cut salaries and benefits, and let the leeches quit and the market fill in. If they want to look me in the face and say "its for the children", then force them to prove it.

So, you are self taught? where did you learn to spell, and write, and read at?....

[Chieppa1]

My God!..how dare she get a Teaching degree...which ain't free BTW...and work her way to the top. Great idea... Punish those who earned and WORKED their way UP.. Maybe you think we should tax rich PEOPLE too?

And while we're on the subject, did you know MOST teachers are REQUIRED to take Professional Development classes during the SUMMER << to stay accredited, and take continuing education classes to stay current. Usually 15 credits every 5 years.

But why? Why are they forced to take all this BS on our dime? And then get pissed off when we can't pay them anymore? And the example he points to in NJ is commonplace. Do you even know how to "work your way up to the top" in New Jersey? Teaching to a test for starters. Then when you hit the top and become part of some town education board, you can set your salary and decide where the taxpayers money goes: to the classroom or too the wallet.

We have a movie called "The Cartel" out about the N.J Teachers Union. I stumbled my way through college, didn't take the Ed courses (because I knew we had no money) and I can go back and take them in a summer, and if I can control 22-26 inner city kids for awhile I'm a teacher in N.J.

Education students put a ton of time into becoming a teacher, and they should make better personal decisions IMO. If they get into to babysit cute kids then okay. But if they feed parents that they care, then they should do whatever possible to make that happen. Its funny, if they wanted freedom in the classroom and passion for teaching, they would be AGAINST their Union, Board of Education and administrators for regulating the fuck out of their jobs. But, the benefits are good. That's why I don't feel for them.

I'm ONLY talking about my experience in NJ. Which is one of the most corrupt public sectors in the country, so Wisconsin is on par.

[JK/SEA]

Close all the government schools and tell parents that educating their offspring is their responsibility. Either teach them yourself, or pay someone to do it, or don't do it at all. TNOP.

I'm sorry, but this statement is full of....
are you living in a bubble?...really. You need to sit down and think about that statment. It made me laugh...

[Monarchist]

So, you are self taught? where did you learn to spell, and write, and read at?....

If a child isn't learning to read and write before he is of school age, then there is something wrong. What next? Children being mute until they're carted off to kindergarten?

[Chieppa1]

So, you are self taught? where did you learn to spell, and write, and read at?....

I have to use spell check 50 times a day, like a good amount of my peers. For 100K a year.....just saying. For that money, I expect more. Don't get me started on my history. I think its disgraceful that someone takes a job and spoon feeds lies and half-truths to children and is okay with it.

I don't blame all teachers. like I said, cut their salaries and benefits to actual market level, and let the passionate teachers come forward and stay. And I actually had a family friend who was just a real smart old lady who did most of my reading, writing and spelling education.

[moostraks]

I'm sorry, but this statement is full of....
are you living in a bubble?...really. You need to sit down and think about that statment. It made me laugh...

What part are you humored by???:confused:

[Matt Collins]

Mike Church's approach is Too Fast and Too Extreme for Wisconsin. Gov. Walker's tame actions are causing an uproar just as it is.
I think Mike Church is saying that the governor isn't doing enough.

[JK/SEA]

What part are you humored by???:confused:

All of it.

The approach some of you take with regards to education is borderline gut wrenching comedy. Are you really serious?...the world is not sunshine and lollipops for everyone. Lots of kids today ARE NOT RAISED IN NURTURING FAMILIES WITH TONS OF MONEY, and are not lucky enough to have parents that give a flying fuck about them, and public schools are filled with these kinds of kids, but some of you think these kids are all fat and happy, and have parents who don't smoke crack or use meth or have parents that don't beat them...get a clue...these kids are dysfunctional, and learning for them is not easy. Black and white world it is not. OH, and i might add here. There are immigrant families, russian, asian, hispanic kids who have parents that barely speak english, so how the fuck are these kids supposed to get mommy and daddy to help with homework?...its happening folks...get a clue.

thats what i'm laughing at...the sheer audacity of the attitudes in here.

[FrankRep]

I think Mike Church is saying that the governor isn't doing enough.


Gov. Walker is doing what he can given the environment.


That why I say:


Mike Church's approach is Too Fast and Too Extreme for Wisconsin. Gov. Walker's tame actions are causing an uproar just as it is.

[moostraks]

All of it.

Yeah...it is ridiculous to expect parents to be responsible for the education of their progeny. Better to force all homeowners into paying. The perk of this method is then the government claims an investment in the children and thus some form of ownership by the community....

[Chieppa1]

All of it.

The approach some of you take with regards to education is borderline gut wrenching comedy. Are you really serious?...the world is not sunshine and lollipops for everyone. Lots of kids today ARE NOT RAISED IN NURTURING FAMILIES WITH TONS OF MONEY, and are not lucky enough to have parents that give a flying fuck about them, and public schools are filled with these kinds of kids, but some of you think these kids are all fat and happy, and have parents who don't smoke crack or use meth or have parents that don't beat them...get a clue...these kids are dysfunctional, and learning for them is not easy. Black and white world it is not. OH, and i might add here. There are immigrant families, russian, asian, hispanic kids who have parents that barely speak english, so how the fuck are these kids supposed to get mommy and daddy to help with homework?...its happening folks...get a clue.

thats what i'm laughing at...the sheer audacity of the attitudes in here.

Funny thing is we just want to get our money's worth if government is going to steal it from us. Teachers blame the parents/kids, parents/kids blame the teachers. Only the teachers work for the parents, no matter how much any union or education board thinks differently. Public education for inner cities have FAILED. Not failing, FAILED. Who's fault is it? Everyone's fault. But only one group gets raises every year and complains when everyone asks them to help out.

Its not about the children. If it was, we wouldn't suck so much.

[JK/SEA]

Yeah...it is ridiculous to expect parents to be responsible for the education of their progeny. Better to force all homeowners into paying. The perk of this method is then the government claims an investment in the children and thus some form of ownership by the community....

Reality sucks doesn't it? your answer is to ...what exactly?..you going to teach these kids that you feel should be tossed aside by society because it takes money from your pocket?...i can see it now...30 years from now. Your ideals come to pass. Those 'fodder' roaming the land like angry bees looking for food, shelter,, some have diseases, and they come upon your house....what now? geez...too late. If only they had been given cursory state education, found a job, gotten married, pay taxes...oh well...

pay now or pay later...

[Eric21ND]

If you're a good teacher you shouldn't be afraid of this, consider this a brushfire to clean out the useless zombies milking the system, and yes I'm in education.

[speciallyblend]

fire them and then make them pay for private workers health care, then the insurance companies can screw us all! They should have the same health benefits as most americans do /NONE!!! ps a strong majority think they have health care until something critical happens. Then they are screwed by their insurance so unless you have had something tragic happen. Then your only paying into a ponzi scheme!!

[JK/SEA]

If you're a good teacher you shouldn't be afraid of this, consider this a brushfire to clean out the useless zombies milking the system, and yes I'm in education.

I can agree with this. Only problem i see is its to arbitrary. Who decides who a good teacher is or isn't ? If your an educator, then you should know this is a VERY slippery slope, and you could very easily lose good teachers. 2 steps forward one step back. Would that be acceptable?...meanwhile some kids are going to get screwed out of getting a good education.

If this is truly about money, i happen to know that in my wifes School District, they are way way top heavy in administrative people. Trim the fat there first. I'm sure most school districts are the same. Why isn't this addressed?...yep...politics.

[awake]

Precisely the problem that government education creates; you have no idea who the good teachers are because there are no free prices to indicate the good from the bad. And, no way to rid the system of the bad before they co-opt the good.

[Chieppa1]

I can agree with this. Only problem i see is its to arbitrary. Who decides who a good teacher is or isn't ? If your an educator, then you should know this is a VERY slippery slope, and you could very easily lose good teachers. 2 steps forward one step back. Would that be acceptable?...meanwhile some kids are going to get screwed out of getting a good education.

Parents. If a class has one kid with responsible parents that voices its opinion, and the rest are crack heads, then so be it. That parent's opinion is 1st IMO.


If this is truly about money, i happen to know that in my wifes School District, they are way way top heavy in administrative people. Trim the fat there first. I'm sure most school districts are the same. Why isn't this addressed?...yep...politics.

Quoted for super truth. This is what happens in New Jersey. Those administrative people were teachers, then got important in the Teacher Union, then moved up. They are the reason good teachers can't get hired. But don't ask the young prospective students that. They 100% blame government and "rich" people. Their anger is confused anger. New Jersey is a pressure cooker for this one reason. Uneducated work force.

[JK/SEA]

Precisely the problem that government education creates, you have no idea who the good teachers are because there are no free prices to indicate the good from the bad.

Too many variables. You will never really be able make that determination with certainty. Unless said teacher shoots him/herself in the foot.
As a baby boomer, i was in very crowded classes. 35-40 was average all through my school years. Thinking back on it now, i have to wonder how my teachers managed. Answer...they didn't. Unless of course you were one of those real'smart' kids, you breezed through. Me..not so much.

[awake]

Too many variables. You will never really be able make that determination with certainty. Unless said teacher shoots him/herself in the foot.
As a baby boomer, i was in very crowded classes. 35-40 was average all through my school years. Thinking back on it now, i have to wonder how my teachers managed. Answer...they didn't. Unless of course you were one of those real'smart' kids, you breezed through. Me..not so much.

I am talking generally about a free system in that the good teachers would be earning the most. Other teachers would either emulate, innovate or face lower incomes. This is natural non dictatorial leadership, or decentralized leadership. A voluntary following based on the truth of the situation; what the end user prefers most.

[Danke]

Reality sucks doesn't it? your answer is to ...what exactly?..you going to teach these kids that you feel should be tossed aside by society because it takes money from your pocket?...i can see it now...30 years from now. Your ideals come to pass. Those 'fodder' roaming the land like angry bees looking for food, shelter,, some have diseases, and they come upon your house....what now? geez...too late. If only they had been given cursory state education, found a job, gotten married, pay taxes...oh well...

pay now or pay later...

YGTBSM!

Do you have the guts to come over and collect, or do you wish others to do the dirty work by proxy?

[Jack Bauer]

Reality sucks doesn't it? your answer is to ...what exactly?..you going to teach these kids that you feel should be tossed aside by society because it takes money from your pocket?...i can see it now...30 years from now. Your ideals come to pass. Those 'fodder' roaming the land like angry bees looking for food, shelter,, some have diseases, and they come upon your house....what now? geez...too late. If only they had been given cursory state education, found a job, gotten married, pay taxes...oh well...

pay now or pay later...

http://static.tvfanatic.com/images/gallery/seriously-wtf.jpg

There are hundreds of thousands of unfortunate people. You want everyone to pay for all their problems and safety nets at gun point?

[JK/SEA]

YGTBSM!

Do you have the guts to come over and collect, or do you wish others to do the dirty work by proxy?

hey, don't kill the messenger.

Frankly, if you want the lawyers to get even more rich than they are now, i hope your ideology wins out. Just so i can say i told you so.

[JK/SEA]

http://static.tvfanatic.com/images/gallery/seriously-wtf.jpg

There are hundreds of thousands of unfortunate people. You want everyone to pay for all their problems and safety nets at gun point?

So i take it you're anti-war then?....i'm one of those 'Americans First' bleeding hearts kinda guy.

[Chieppa1]

So the 90 million Americans that actually pay taxes?

[amy31416]

My wife spent ZERO time in college with macaroni projects, glitter, or anything else remotely connected to ART projects. Of course this was Western Washington University in Washington State, so i'm not sure if the colleges you refer to were accredited as colleges that teaches for real future teachers.

Yes, those colleges were. And I am referring strictly to elementary education undergraduate degrees, we'd be working on projects for our degrees, and it was a running joke amongst the elementary ed majors about how stupid we were that we were actually "working" for our degree, while they were gluing macaroni to boards.

Obviously, there's more to it than that, and I understand you taking offense to it...but there's some truth to it that you shouldn't deny.

Either way, home-schooled kids were doing far better than public-schooled, last I checked. And those "educators" often don't have degrees, bullshit ones or not. Privately-schooled kids do better as well, and those of us who've taught in that system (me, for a while), don't have to have a single accreditation, even on the college level.

So, my point, while I was being snarky, was simply that most of the government "standards" and accreditation are almost entirely bullshit...and so are most elementary ed. degrees. It takes a person who really knows and likes kids to pull it off--and a 4-year degree can't "teach" that.

It's more of a calling...and the field is glutted with lazy jerks who want to coast along, while dragging the good ones down. Just like nursing and other "philanthropic" fields.

I'd be willing to wager that your wife would have been an excellent teacher, even without the degree.

[JK/SEA]

Yes, those colleges were. And I am referring strictly to elementary education undergraduate degrees, we'd be working on projects for our degrees, and it was a running joke amongst the elementary ed majors about how stupid we were that we were actually "working" for our degree, while they were gluing macaroni to boards.

Obviously, there's more to it than that, and I understand you taking offense to it...but there's some truth to it that you shouldn't deny.

Either way, home-schooled kids were doing far better than public-schooled, last I checked. And those "educators" often don't have degrees, bullshit ones or not. Privately-schooled kids do better as well, and those of us who've taught in that system (me, for a while), don't have to have a single accreditation, even on the college level.

So, my point, while I was being snarky, was simply that most of the government "standards" and accreditation are almost entirely bullshit...and so are most elementary ed. degrees. It takes a person who really knows and likes kids to pull it off--and a 4-year degree can't "teach" that.

It's more of a calling...and the field is glutted with lazy jerks who want to coast along, while dragging the good ones down. Just like nursing and other "philanthropic" fields.

I'd be willing to wager that your wife would have been an excellent teacher, even without the degree.

Thanks Amy. Yes, i have to say i feel that this jumping through hoops to get a 'degree' could be considered a dog and pony show, and yes, my wife is very intelligent, and we often discuss the topic of homeschooling and why we should have done it for our son and daughter...oh well..water under the bridge now, but it pains me to think we wasted her time and our money for her degree, but i feel she did gain a ton of knowledge at WWU, and her getting that degree was a proud moment for her and me, and she got it when she turned 50...she is getting extremely upset with all the teacher bashing in the media, and on this forum, and i hope there is no lasting ill effects on her now that she is almost 60. Her blood pressure is an issue, and i defend her vocation with all my abilities, but the worm is turning against teachers and that bothers me...oh well...let the chips fall where they may, and good luck to everyone in education. Its not a fun time being a teacher now, and i know quite a few..

[Jack Bauer]

So i take it you're anti-war then?....i'm one of those 'Americans First' bleeding hearts kinda guy.

Err...yes, I am anti-unconstitutional war.

[moostraks]

Reality sucks doesn't it? your answer is to ...what exactly?..you going to teach these kids that you feel should be tossed aside by society because it takes money from your pocket?...i can see it now...30 years from now. Your ideals come to pass. Those 'fodder' roaming the land like angry bees looking for food, shelter,, some have diseases, and they come upon your house....what now? geez...too late. If only they had been given cursory state education, found a job, gotten married, pay taxes...oh well...

pay now or pay later...

What reality? I am teaching my own children and am a better parent and we are a stronger family for it. If people were made accountable for the financial responsibility in some form or fashion then we wouldn't have so many government schools that resemble day care centers with children that have such a hearty chip on their shoulder. Then there is the teachers that have a resentment for both their job and yet oddly anyone who suggests a change to the current status of things- which ain't workin'!!!!

Many so called students are currently getting diseases while in school because they are being kept in herds with large student to teacher ratios and being raised with the morals of a farm animal. You got the cursory education part right though. As for roaming the streets looking for shelter and food, are you unaware of the low graduation rate for government schools in many areas as well as the sub par education our tax dollars are sowing?

The stronger the demand for children being government property, the more destruction we have seen to the family. It has not improved the state of society and is a huge waste of tax payer dollars. We are paying both now and later already....

[Danke]

Unless of course you were one of those real'smart' kids, you breezed through. Me..not so much.

That explains JK/SEA giving me a -rep for this:


YGTBSM!

Do you have the guts to come over and collect, or do you wish others to do the dirty work by proxy?

[FrankRep]

CNS News
February 22, 2011

Two-Thirds of Wisconsin Public-School 8th Graders Can’t Read Proficiently—Despite Highest Per Pupil Spending in Midwest
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g

[JK/SEA]

I guess the school you went to didn't teach manners and class...yeah...nobody's perfect. And i haven't the time or inclination to explain what it was like in a 35-40 pupil class in the 60's...i did graduate though, with 5 credits to spare. In fact, i was out of High School 3 months early with my diploma. Was i a 3-4 point student?...no. 2.5.

And i gave you a neg. rep because you gave me one first. Lifes a bitch and then you die Princess.

[FrankRep]

Fleeing Wisconsin Democrats could hide for days, weeks (http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-spokane/fleeing-wisconsin-democrats-could-hide-for-days-weeks)

On Thursday, Wisconsin Senate Democrats tucked tail and ran like a pack of scalded dogs from the state Capitol, refusing to do the job they were elected to do.

Friday morning, TMJ reported that Governor Scott Walker sent state troopers out in an attempt to round up at least one Democrat so the Senate can vote on the Governor's budget repair bill.



UPDATE:

Wisconsin Democrat state senators may be forced back into the Capital.

Boom!

Missing Wisconsin state senators lose direct-deposit paychecks
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20110222/GPG0101/110222132/Missing-state-senators-lose-direct-deposit-paychecks

[JK/SEA]

CNS News
February 22, 2011

Two-Thirds of Wisconsin Public-School 8th Graders Can’t Read Proficiently—Despite Highest Per Pupil Spending in Midwest
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g

Biased article, and it completely lacks ANY real data of FUCKING WHY!!!.....are they saying the only people responsible are the educators?...not buying that one, and anyone who does is ignorant, or homeschooled by a crack whore.

Devil is in the details bubba.

Next.

[Jack Bauer]

Biased article, and it completely lacks ANY real data of FUCKING WHY!!!.....are they saying the only people responsible are the educators?...not buying that one, and anyone who does is ignorant, or homeschooled by a crack whore.

Devil is in the details bubba.

Next.

Are you a bit thick?

The article doesn't claim to have found reasons to explain why there is a discrepancy between reading proficiency and per pupil spending. It only notes the discrepancy.

Yeah, those facts are real biased.

[moostraks]

Biased article, and it completely lacks ANY real data of FUCKING WHY!!!.....are they saying the only people responsible are the educators?...not buying that one, and anyone who does is ignorant, or homeschooled by a crack whore.

Devil is in the details bubba.

Next.

At an average school year of 180 days and average day of almost 7 hours that is 1260 hours a year. By 8th grade they have had 8820 hours of instruction if they started in first grade. Since it is illegal to miss more than 10 days of school in Wisconsin you can subtract 70 hours per year just for good measure. That is 8330 that your students have had of instruction. Why can reading proficiently not be seen as the responsibility of the educators who have this many hours with the students?

[Jack Bauer]

Wisconsin - End Game?

State Senate GOP leaders requiring missing Dems to pick up checks in person

http://www.wispolitics.com/1006/large/110222paycheckresult.pdf

[QueenB4Liberty]

Wisconsin - End Game?

State Senate GOP leaders requiring missing Dems to pick up checks in person

http://www.wispolitics.com/1006/large/110222paycheckresult.pdf

hahahaha wow this is getting good!!!

[JK/SEA]

At an average school year of 180 days and average day of almost 7 hours that is 1260 hours a year. By 8th grade they have had 8820 hours of instruction if they started in first grade. Since it is illegal to miss more than 10 days of school in Wisconsin you can subtract 70 hours per year just for good measure. That is 8330 that your students have had of instruction. Why can reading proficiently not be seen as the responsibility of the educators who have this many hours with the students?

I'm calling BS on that article because it lacks detail. There is no way in hell this...allegation...can hold water for a simple fact educators 'educate.' They turn in their grades, they write down reports on each child. The child is tested, tests are recorded and filed, and you're going to tell me the educators are at fault?....more likely, and i know the truth can hurt sometimes, but i believe ADMINISTRATORS either fudged the results to get more money, or somebody is lying their ass off in that article and making shit up to boost their anti-public school agenda....

[JK/SEA]

Are you a bit thick?

The article doesn't claim to have found reasons to explain why there is a discrepancy between reading proficiency and per pupil spending. It only notes the discrepancy.

Yeah, those facts are real biased.

Am i bit thick?...only my dick.

[moostraks]

I'm calling BS on that article because it lacks detail. There is no way in hell this...allegation...can hold water for a simple fact educators 'educate.' They turn in their grades, they write down reports on each child. The child is tested, tests are recorded and filed, and you're going to tell me the educators are at fault?....more likely, and i know the truth can hurt sometimes, but i believe ADMINISTRATORS either fudged the results to get more money, or somebody is lying their ass off in that article and making shit up to boost their anti-public school agenda....

They teach for the test. I have seen the books. In fact I have a copy of a popular US History book used by the all mighty government schools. The graphics are so overwhelming that it is no wonder many students have adhd. Then there are bullet points for what to remember to pass the test. The students don't have to have reading comprehension skills, they just have to read and memorize.

So I have no doubt the students are tested and the tests are recorded. All they have been working at for years is teaching test taking skills. However, reading proficiently means that one can read and comprehend material not coached in such a manner as to be pointing out an obvious answer to a question. My students are taught by employing much of Charlotte Mason's philosophy. I noticed a drastic improvement in retention and comprehension over the read and test format of textbook companies. However, Mason's methods are difficult to employ when one has numerous students and wants to just grade papers quickly and move on.

[JK/SEA]

They teach for the test. I have seen the books. In fact I have a copy of a popular US History book used by the all mighty government schools. The graphics are so overwhelming that it is no wonder many students have adhd. Then there are bullet points for what to remember to pass the test. The students don't have to have reading comprehension skills, they just have to read and memorize.

So I have no doubt the students are tested and the tests are recorded. All they have been working at for years is teaching test taking skills. However, reading proficiently means that one can read and comprehend material not coached in such a manner as to be pointing out an obvious answer to a question. My students are taught by employing much of Charlotte Mason's philosophy. I noticed a drastic improvement in retention and comprehension over the read and test format of textbook companies. However, Mason's methods are difficult to employ when one has numerous students and wants to just grade papers quickly and move on.


They teach for the test. I have seen the books. In fact I have a copy of a popular US History book used by the all mighty government schools. The graphics are so overwhelming that it is no wonder many students have adhd. Then there are bullet points for what to remember to pass the test. The students don't have to have reading comprehension skills, they just have to read and memorize.

So I have no doubt the students are tested and the tests are recorded. All they have been working at for years is teaching test taking skills. However, reading proficiently means that one can read and comprehend material not coached in such a manner as to be pointing out an obvious answer to a question. My students are taught by employing much of Charlotte Mason's philosophy. I noticed a drastic improvement in retention and comprehension over the read and test format of textbook companies. However, Mason's methods are difficult to employ when one has numerous students and wants to just grade papers quickly and move on.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Moostraks. As i sit here at my keyboard, i wander back in time on how it was for me in public school. I will admit to being distracted, a mind wandering male looking at the pretty girls and waiting for that bell to ring so i could go play baseball or football. Homework was a joke for me. Took me 30 minutes to read and finish up anything i had. Sometimes i just blew it off, hence my low GPA, but school was a yawner for me. The other kids i noticed were a mixed bag as is usual. You had the brainiacs, the slow learners..or lazy..(me) and the kids who just appeared ready to drop out. Now that i'm older and retired and with a PRIVATE pension, i see that i believe i was just immature, and not ready for anything schools had to offer, but i was labeled a slow learner..and i think..geez, how many kids are there who really aren't ready for the discipline it takes to do well in school, all because they haven't reached that growing phase called maturity to focus on lessons, and what teachers are trying to do?...point i'm trying to get at is, this 'learning' gig we all go through is not a black and white issue. Everybody is different as you know.
Girls mature faster, hence their ability to do well in school as a rule, compared to most boys of the same age, however this does change the older we become, and the boy who was considered a flunky in 4th grade, is now a student body president with 3 or 4 point gpa...i've seen this happen. How can a teacher lead a horse to water AND make him drink?...society it appears believes teachers are somehow omnipotent, especially those teachers in public schools where they are constantly derided, ridiculed, held up to a higher standard, and expected to perform miracles with a child in just a short time frame. Too many variables. I already pointed out the fact public schools HAVE to take in kids with many problems, including kids with learning disabilities, but are expected to get that child up to speed or face the wrath of the taxpayer, and self serving politicians. Meanwhile parents get a free pass...no matter what.

[moostraks]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Moostraks. As i sit here at my keyboard, i wander back in time on how it was for me in public school. I will admit to being distracted, a mind wandering male looking at the pretty girls and waiting for that bell to ring so i could go play baseball or football. Homework was a joke for me. Took me 30 minutes to read and finish up anything i had. Sometimes i just blew it off, hence my low GPA, but school was a yawner for me. The other kids i noticed were a mixed bag as is usual. You had the brainiacs, the slow learners..or lazy..(me) and the kids who just appeared ready to drop out. Now that i'm older and retired and with a PRIVATE pension, i see that i believe i was just immature, and not ready for anything schools had to offer, but i was labeled a slow learner..and i think..geez, how many kids are there who really aren't ready for the discipline it takes to do well in school, all because they haven't reached that growing phase called maturity to focus on lessons, and what teachers are trying to do?...point i'm trying to get at is, this 'learning' gig we all go through is not a black and white issue. Everybody is different as you know.
Girls mature faster, hence their ability to do well in school as a rule, compared to most boys of the same age, however this does change the older we become, and the boy who was considered a flunky in 4th grade, is now a student body president with 3 or 4 point gpa...i've seen this happen. How can a teacher lead a horse to water AND make him drink?...society it appears believes teachers are somehow omnipotent, especially those teachers in public schools where they are constantly derided, ridiculed, held up to a higher standard, and expected to perform miracles with a child in just a short time frame. Too many variables. I already pointed out the fact public schools HAVE to take in kids with many problems, including kids with learning disabilities, but are expected to get that child up to speed or face the wrath of the taxpayer, and self serving politicians. Meanwhile parents get a free pass...no matter what.


I get exactly what you are saying. I was told to pursue a teaching career years ago and turned it down because I did not want to teach people like me (I had an attitude and was fairly unmotivated)...lol. I never did homework. I had a good short term memory. So I reviewed prior to taking tests and passed within the 3-4 point average. I was in college level classes because I tested well. I quit before going into 12th grade and moved to Europe. I remember nothing and am now learning information for real as I teach my children.

Lazy parents are totally getting a free pass and I am sick of it too. I get so frustrated with those who just dump their children on the system and expect it will turn out well. They are told by many who are certified teachers, though, that they are incapable of teaching or have fallen through a broken system themselves. The system is broken and it isn't helping children, parents, families, or teachers who really want to teach. If parents aren't made to be financially responsible for the education of their children it will continue imo. I don't care whether a community provides education as long as the participants fund it and it isn't federalized as a one size fits all countrywide model.

As for those with learning disabilities the teachers should be taking this up with the parents and school administration. All children do not learn the same but most are expected to go through the assembly line. Teachers are the ones who know where things are going wrong because they spend the time with the children and see where the weaknesses are for the particular student in question. If the school is continually failing the students because it fails to provide alternative options for those who aren't mainstream, then it is the moral responsibility of those in the know(the teacher) to advocate and as last recourse withdraw from a failing system. Were my husband not a tolerant man who funds my school adventures I would not have continued to teach our children. I have numerous resources and even within the comparatively few students I have, problems crop up due to learning style differences. (Henceforth why I have so many resources.) Anyways by keeping classes small and parents deeply involved, much as homeschooling does, the ability to hide/fall through the system would almost disappear.

[idirtify]

It seems the discussion has veered into a debate over the value of public education. I’d like to get it back on the subject of government unions.

For the moment let’s ignore the issue of whether collective bargaining is ever a “right” (since it isn’t the same as “voluntary association”, it is debatable). The gov doesn’t have “rights”; it only has “powers”, which are granted to it by the people. And since “government” is made up of nothing more than its employees (whose pay does not come from generated profit, but from forced taxes), those employees do not have the same rights as private sector ones. Therefore, it would not be a rights violation to rescind a power that was previously granted to them. Does that make sense?

[moostraks]

It seems the discussion has veered into a debate over the value of public education. I’d like to get it back on the subject of government unions.

For the moment let’s ignore the issue of whether collective bargaining is ever a “right” (since it isn’t the same as “voluntary association”, it is debatable). The gov doesn’t have “rights”; it only has “powers”, which are granted to it by the people. And since “government” is made up of nothing more than its employees (whose pay does not come from generated profit, but from forced taxes), those employees do not have the same rights as private sector ones. Therefore, it would not be a rights violation to rescind a power that was previously granted to them. Does that make sense?

You synopsis sounds like cliff notes of Limbaugh's program yesterday.Devil's advocate here-I wonder if there are any legal obligations from breech of contract on the part of the government. Are they obligated to deal with the union in negotiations contractually? :confused:

[FrankRep]

I wonder if there are any legal obligations from breech of contract on the part of the government. Are they obligated to deal with the union in negotiations contractually? :confused:

The Governor is working on the New Budget right now. Expired Contracts will not be included in the New Budget.

[moostraks]

The Governor is working on the New Budget right now. Expired Contracts will not be included in the New Budget.

So that would mean there is no longer a contract of employment? If so and the union wants to push their weight around their only shot would seem to be accept termination in mass and let the government hire for all the positions in question. Probably gonna gum up the works if they do that at many levels and one of the considerations why primary enforcers will get preferential treatment (police and fire/rescue). Could also be interesting in terms of unemployment numbers and cost to the state from that angle because they would be eligible, right?

[HOLLYWOOD]

So that would mean there is no longer a contract of employment? If so and the union wants to push their weight around their only shot would seem to be accept termination in mass and let the government hire for all the positions in question. Probably gonna gum up the works if they do that at many levels and one of the considerations why primary enforcers will get preferential treatment (police and fire/rescue). Could also be interesting in terms of unemployment numbers and cost to the state from that angle because they would be eligible, right?

Gesus, they are hallucinating...

Appears the government Unions are attacking FRONT PAGE SPLASH: http://www.afscme.org/splash/

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee332/McLieberman/AFSCME.png

[idirtify]

You synopsis sounds like cliff notes of Limbaugh's program yesterday.Devil's advocate here-I wonder if there are any legal obligations from breech of contract on the part of the government. Are they obligated to deal with the union in negotiations contractually? :confused:

Gosh I might have to start listening to Limbaugh. It sounds like he’s coming around. Speaking of “coming around”, I vote we don’t hold it against anyone for doing that even if it’s not genuine and only a result of following the trend (because I suspect that’s how new paradigms take hold; where it doesn’t matter if most of the new converts are just followers/sheep because the sheep are people/votes too) – no matter their abhorrent history. So how about it? Do you think that if this individual liberty thing actually keeps growing that there will be a general amnesty attitude for former statists?

Anyway, back to the topic. So since you said I sound like Limbaugh, I have no choice but to ask if you are disagreeing with my comments. I don’t think you are, but considering your Limbaugh comment…

Regarding your excellent question about contractual obligations, I simply don’t know when it comes to 1) a government 2) that is broke. I’m tempted to compare the situation to a bankrupt business that is relieved of all its former financial obligations.

[Matt Collins]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVJM5s8GzJ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FRVZYzfxgI&feature=related

[payme_rick]

very good discussion...

Maybe I'm wrong, but I view this as the employer changing its policy... if you do not like it, leave...