Were the Founders religious?

[Matt Collins]

Were the Founders religious?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyNJgJYAvig&feature=uploademail

[Anti Federalist]

Oh god...here we go.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Why do people just say Founders. They weren't a homogenous group. Who do you mean when you say Founders? Thomas Paine the Atheist? Jefferson the Deist? Franklin the Deist? Anyways, it's just one of those issues that'll stretch to 50 pages. I'll pass :p

[AFPVet]

Were they 'religious', or were they 'spiritual'?

[BamaAla]

Devil worshipers every last one of them.

[Zippyjuan]

I think the biggest thing was that they felt it was important not to impose their own religious beliefs on everybody else- giving us the Freedom Of Religion. Let everybody practice their own religion.

[AFPVet]

I think the biggest thing was that they felt it was important not to impose their own religious beliefs on everybody else- giving us the Freedom Of Religion. Let everybody practice their own religion.

Ding Ding Ding... we have a winner!

[Sola_Fide]

The more important point to make is that the PEOPLE were religious.

The people are always more faithful than the elites....and the idealistic change that sparked the revolution came from the people, not the "founders".

[Dave Aiello]

Thankfully there were a few free thinkers among them to keep a secular nation, and minimal god-speak in the constitution.

[JoshLowry]

Do we have a religion subforum Matt?

[JohnEngland]

Thankfully there were a few free thinkers among them to keep a secular nation, and minimal god-speak in the constitution.

Free thinkers? So in other words Christians, since to deny God is close-minded :)

[Vessol]

Free thinkers? So in other words Christians, since to deny God is close-minded :)

You could say denying a lot of things is close-minded, where do you draw the line :P.

[00_Pete]

First the "Founders" were many, media and intellectuals just told you who the "founders" were.

But since we are into this:

Jefferson was Illuminatus bastard (thank him for democracy and the 2 party system) just like his 2 weasels, Paine and Hamilton. Paine was deeply connected to the ruthless and authoritarian Jacobin cells (funded by bankers) of the French Revolution. Hamilton was the Rothchild envoy to North America. And im 90% sure that Jefferson was the founder of Skull and Bones, the mythical nº1 member that is a blank on the members list (Skull and Bones wasnt founded in 1832 thats just the official date). So yes Jefferson was very religious...except he worshiped the "guy from below".

Franklin was some kind of occultist that was having wild sexual orgies and black masses and all that crap, he was a member of the "Hellfire Club". I can hear some modal-libertarian going "Cool! I like him even more."...well, when you know that many of the participants in those orgies and black masses and occult rituals were members of the elite that stops being "cool". Kubrick and "Eyes Wide Shut"?? Yep, he was DEFINATLY trying to tell you something ehehehe...So yes, Franklin was very religious except he worshiped "the guy from below".

The others were extremely religious too as far as i can tell. John Adams (heads and shoulders the best of the "founders") was totally anti-Jefferson/Hamilton/Paine and their schemes and he, along with many others, warned about Jefferson and the Illuminati, he was also deeply religious and his son too. (Notice how there are no John Adams in dollar bills...) Its known that Washington spent his last decades surrounded by Calvinists. So yes most were Christians but the few that were bastards and devils (freethinkers as one member above called them lol) did a damage that still lasts to this day.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

in b4 Teh Collins can post pics....

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x93/sonicspikesalbum/MattandtheJudge-ee.jpg

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x93/sonicspikesalbum/IMG_0078_1e.jpg

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x93/sonicspikesalbum/l_80c2409003d23d4780c7127b5e4b989b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2680/4406561269_c15277d9f6_o.gif

[KurtBoyer25L]

The Flying Teapot is in orbit once again.

The fathers were largely very smart, headstrong, obstinate people, with their own individual views. The more succinct question might be whether the Constitution is written according to a secular, or Christian, code of ethics. A corollary question is whether the structure of the United States itself as a political entity was crafted according to Christian design/principles, or according to secular design/principles.

At this point the argument for "Christian" seems to fail in three respects. First, there is no explicit instruction in the Bible on how to set up a revolution and set up a government. So it leaves a lot open to conjecture & interpretation. Christianity fits in just fine with the Constitution according to many; other devout believers may disagree. Second, we have the Athenians to thank for crafting the first recognized "free" society, or something approaching it. This happened centuries before Christianity existed, so how could it have been based on Christian principles? The guiding principles of liberty -- noninterference, nonviolence, fairness under the law -- predate Christ, and may predate recorded philosophy and history. Yes, I know these were not always perfectly conceived and obeyed, but the Christian men & women currently running our government are not looking great in comparison to the Stoics.

Finally, the Old Testament does elucidate Mosaic Law, which appears rigid, brutal, and "socially conservative" to the point of killing adulterers. Militant Islamic countries are examples of political structures based on such "fascist" instructional elements within a holy text. Nobody can argue that America was set up in a similar way.

I do believe that many founders were heavily influenced by Christianity & applied such principles the the broader common denominator among humankind -- the desire to live in peace and liberty. They were surely inspired by the individualism & humbleness of the Quakers, the courage of the Puritan explorers and the more tolerant, hopeful tone of the New Testament. But is the design & function of the republic inherently, fundamentally Christian at its core? No more than Athens was. Libertarian principles transcend all personal religious differences. They acknowledge the same basic rights of the people walking past a church and the people in it.

[erowe1]

No one who has ever lived has not been religious.

[Sola_Fide]

No one who has ever lived has not been religious.

True.

I think what the OP meant to ask is "were the founders Christians?".

And at this point I would say this question pales in comparison to this more important question: Were the people Christians? And to that we can resoundingly answer 'yes'.

Ron has said a million times that true change comes from the people. The elites are ALWAYS more collectivistic than the people...ALWAYS. So it can be said that the worldview of the Christian people in America gave rise to the most liberty-loving, economically free country that the world has ever seen.

[pcosmar]

Were they religious ?
Some,,,, possibly. They were all men (and women) of faith.
I am irreligious. I am a course and angry man (you may have noticed ;) ) But I am a Christian,,a believer.
I like to make a clear distinction between religion and faith.

Many of the folks that came to the "New World", the colonies, came to escape religious persecution. There were many sects that were outlawed or persecuted.
Some came for other reasons. (economic opportunity, legal entanglements,etc)

The writings of the founders reflect the belief that faith was important to liberty and freedom to worship was a basic right. They incorporated this into the Bill of Rights.To prevent the religious persecution that many fled.
They had many religions, and some were no doubt irreligious as myself.
And yes,, most were Christians.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

[Chester Copperpot]

First the "Founders" were many, media and intellectuals just told you who the "founders" were.

But since we are into this:

Jefferson was Illuminatus bastard (thank him for democracy and the 2 party system) just like his 2 weasels, Paine and Hamilton. Paine was deeply connected to the ruthless and authoritarian Jacobin cells (funded by bankers) of the French Revolution. Hamilton was the Rothchild envoy to North America. And im 90% sure that Jefferson was the founder of Skull and Bones, the mythical nº1 member that is a blank on the members list (Skull and Bones wasnt founded in 1832 thats just the official date). So yes Jefferson was very religious...except he worshiped the "guy from below".

Franklin was some kind of occultist that was having wild sexual orgies and black masses and all that crap, he was a member of the "Hellfire Club". I can hear some modal-libertarian going "Cool! I like him even more."...well, when you know that many of the participants in those orgies and black masses and occult rituals were members of the elite that stops being "cool". Kubrick and "Eyes Wide Shut"?? Yep, he was DEFINATLY trying to tell you something ehehehe...So yes, Franklin was very religious except he worshiped "the guy from below".

The others were extremely religious too as far as i can tell. John Adams (heads and shoulders the best of the "founders") was totally anti-Jefferson/Hamilton/Paine and their schemes and he, along with many others, warned about Jefferson and the Illuminati, he was also deeply religious and his son too. (Notice how there are no John Adams in dollar bills...) Its known that Washington spent his last decades surrounded by Calvinists. So yes most were Christians but the few that were bastards and devils (freethinkers as one member above called them lol) did a damage that still lasts to this day.

I take issue with your statements on Franklin. ON the contrary I think he was a religious man indeed. He believed in God just not alot of the Church's dogma. He even wrote out and did his own little version of mass. And it wasnt for the guy down below.

Id like to see where you get some of your information from. Mine comes from his autobiography.

[Southron]

Yes. But the specifics of religion were left to the states.

[Matt Collins]

Did anyone here actually watch the video?

[trey4sports]

I find it Ironic that an atheist could be elected president during our early years when the country was strongly Christian (overall) yet there's no way in hell an atheist could be elected today when the morals and values of our society sink to a new low each and every day :confused:

[trey4sports]

Did anyone here actually watch the video?

yes

[KurtBoyer25L]

I did, and I'm not sure I share all of his premises.

Organized Christianity seems imposed on the common U.S. citizen by the government in a number of ways. It does not seem that religion has shrank from the public or political spectrum, and elected officials are almost always regular churchgoers. Religious freedom, on the other hand, has been attacked incrementally, but I would argue that non-Christians have been suppressed and persecuted far more often that Christians have during the last century. I don't give the 600 people in currently in congress the credit for being so unselfish, so unbiased, that when allowed to tend to the hideous beast that is our government's involvement in our personal & spiritual lives, they would choose to persecute & suppress their own religion more than competing faiths. Christianity is still being imposed.

If you listen to Jim Demint carefully, he would be fine with abolishing all socially oppressive, neocon fascist-religious legislation -- just as soon as the last sodomite is castrated, the last weed farmer is put in prison, and the last copy of the Satanic Bible is burned. Jefferson and Franklin surely did not have "social holy war" in mind when discussing the healthy role of religious faith among a free citizenry.

Would it actually benefit the goals of Christians to abolish all state impositions of Christianity? Intriguing, but messy because so many different types of Christians seem to want different things. But can the Christian who feels that those with differing worldviews are always irrational, necessarily amoral, in denial, eternally damned, a catastrophic influence on society, and so on, logically take credit for inspiring or philosophically guiding a libertarian revolution?

[William R]

Were the Founders religious?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyNJgJYAvig&feature=uploademail

Disciples of Reason

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/1996/issue50/5028.html

[BlackTerrel]

I don't care. And I'm surprised people today would make decisions based on "what the founders believed" or "would the founders have supported this war".

Who cares? It's 2011.

[KurtBoyer25L]

I don't care. And I'm surprised people today would make decisions based on "what the founders believed" or "would the founders have supported this war".

Who cares? It's 2011.

Their system worked a lot better than our 2011 system does. Why not learn from the professors? I suggest contrarily that people aren't looking deep enough into the past when it comes to crafting a truly libertarian philosophy. We should look to the philosophers in France, in Rome, and then Ancient Greece...as Franklin and Jefferson did.

[BlackTerrel]

Their system worked a lot better than our 2011 system does. Why not learn from the professors? I suggest contrarily that people aren't looking deep enough into the past when it comes to crafting a truly libertarian philosophy. We should look to the philosophers in France, in Rome, and then Ancient Greece...as Franklin and Jefferson did.

No it didn't. Their system sucked. Some people were owned by other people. Women weren't allowed to vote and they didn't have internet, iPhones, NFL or South Park.

Why should I make decisions in 2011 based on what a group of people believed in the 1700's

[Matt Collins]

in b4 Teh Collins can post pics....

You forgot one:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x93/sonicspikesalbum/Florida%20Liberty%20Summit%20-%20Orlando%20Aug%202010/100_4896.jpg

[college4life]

No it didn't. Their system sucked. Some people were owned by other people. Women weren't allowed to vote and they didn't have internet, iPhones, NFL or South Park.

Why should I make decisions in 2011 based on what a group of people believed in the 1700's

Their system was better than ours today and don't tell me the fact they didn't have Iphones or the NFL has any revelance to the issue

[robert68]

..

[Travlyr]

Their system worked a lot better than our 2011 system does. Why not learn from the professors? I suggest contrarily that people aren't looking deep enough into the past when it comes to crafting a truly libertarian philosophy. We should look to the philosophers in France, in Rome, and then Ancient Greece...as Franklin and Jefferson did.

This is for sure. We have access to more information, but they were highly educated. We certainly should examine history for answers. It seems that humans are on the cusp of change once again. Let's get it right.

[BlackTerrel]

Their system was better than ours today and don't tell me the fact they didn't have Iphones or the NFL has any revelance to the issue

Ok how about the fact that their system allowed some people to own other people? That is better than our system today?

[KurtBoyer25L]

Ok how about the fact that their system allowed some people to own other people? That is better than our system today?

Interesting points. Not the NFL or iphones, but slavery and women's rights in the context of the Constitution and the Founders. I think it helps to consider the Constitution a legal document conceived by individuals to achieve certain goals within a cultural & political climate...rather than an intransigent holy text. If our first federal government was an attempt to quickly invent Utopia, then yes, as a "system" it failed very badly. But that wasn't exactly the game.

Slavery was not invented by the founders. Neither was racism or bigotry. The Constitution *did* help create an environment where such horrendous ideas & resulting human rights violations could be actively fought. And philosophically, Paine, Jefferson & Franklin laid a magnificent groundwork for a peaceful & tolerant America. For example, Ben Franklin's writing betrays a crucial kind of respect & appreciation for women that makes present-day males look like red-assed baboons in comparison. Try Google for Silence Dogood or Polly Baker.

Also, what's this about nobody being allowed to own anyone else in our day? :-)

BTW I'm not sure why mod. Collins was/is dismayed at the content of this thread. The video is very short, and asks more questions than it answers. If I post a neutrally-toned 90-second video called "Were the founding fathers Dualists?" I might likely expect a variety of replies, opinions & disingenuous sub-debates. Maybe we could try a discussion about one guy at a time, or about sub-groups of the founders who appeared more/less Christian privately or politically.

[erowe1]

No it didn't. Their system sucked. ....Women weren't allowed to vote....

Does not compute.

[BlackTerrel]

Interesting points. Not the NFL or iphones, but slavery and women's rights in the context of the Constitution and the Founders. I think it helps to consider the Constitution a legal document conceived by individuals to achieve certain goals within a cultural & political climate...rather than an intransigent holy text. If our first federal government was an attempt to quickly invent Utopia, then yes, as a "system" it failed very badly. But that wasn't exactly the game.

Slavery was not invented by the founders. Neither was racism or bigotry. The Constitution *did* help create an environment where such horrendous ideas & resulting human rights violations could be actively fought. And philosophically, Paine, Jefferson & Franklin laid a magnificent groundwork for a peaceful & tolerant America. For example, Ben Franklin's writing betrays a crucial kind of respect & appreciation for women that makes present-day males look like red-assed baboons in comparison. Try Google for Silence Dogood or Polly Baker.

My point being that I don't get the wisdom in seeking guidance on current issues from people who died a couple hundred years ago. I have opinions and can make arguments on issues such as property rights, gun control, , religion, foreign policy etc. I wouldn't sway my beliefs because "the founding father thought differently" - so what?

[KurtBoyer25L]

My point being that I don't get the wisdom in seeking guidance on current issues from people who died a couple hundred years ago. I have opinions and can make arguments on issues such as property rights, gun control, , religion, foreign policy etc. I wouldn't sway my beliefs because "the founding father thought differently" - so what?

If a building is falling apart, it seems wise to consult the blueprint...and the architects.

[Legend1104]

Why do people just say Founders. They weren't a homogenous group. Who do you mean when you say Founders? Thomas Paine the Atheist? Jefferson the Deist? Franklin the Deist? Anyways, it's just one of those issues that'll stretch to 50 pages. I'll pass :p

Have you ever read Thomas Paine's Age of Reason? He was not an Atheist. He just didn't believe in the Christian God. He did believe in God though.