Wisconsin

[hazek]

Let me remind all you liberty loving people that what's happening in Wisconsin right now is merely a symptom and not the problem.

So instead of bashing the public sector and alienating potential supporters to our liberty movement how about instead you offer compassion and knowledge to those in peril and perhaps win them over.

It is imperative that we always keep the main problem of fiat money issued by a banking cartel and a too big government under a big spotlight and in our target sights so there never is any confusion about who the real enemy is. Last thing we want is for us mundanes to fight each other and have the status quo laugh at us while further enslaving us.


So please! Stop the friendly fire and watch who your targets are!

[ammorris]

Valid points. I think we all just get a bit annoyed when we see people screaming over a small reduction in their tax-funded compensation, at a time when everyone else is struggling just to get by.

[hazek]

bump

[Gaius1981]

These type of people are the problem; they're collectivists in the truest sense of the word, and think that they're entitled to special privileges. They feel entitled to be shielded from the effects of the recession, at the cost of the taxpayers in the private sector, who are suffering and forced to make big sacrifices. I have zero sympathy for the protesters. I wish we had a President who would do to the protesters what Reagan did to the air traffic controllers who went on strike in 1981: terminate them. We need to get used to people like these though, as they'll become increasingly vocal as Republicans try to be responsible and make some cuts.

[hazek]

Ugh emotions emotions emotions.

STOP and think for a seconds, please:


These type of people are the problem; they're collectivists in the truest sense of the word, and think that they're entitled to special privileges. They feel entitled to be shielded from the effects of the recession, at the cost of the taxpayers in the private sector, who are suffering and forced to make big sacrifices. I have zero sympathy for the protesters. I wish we had a President who would do to the protesters what Reagan did to the air traffic controllers who went on strike in 1981: terminate them. We need to get used to people like these though, as they'll become increasingly vocal as Republicans try to be responsible and make some cuts.

Yes you are right about those people. BUT they are merely a symptom.

Please explain to me what good does it do to have your mindset vs a symptom?

[Gaius1981]

Yes you are right about those people. BUT they are merely a symptom.

Please explain to me what good does it do to have your mindset vs a symptom?

You can just as easily turn it around and say that big government is a sympton of people like those. They're the political activists who scream the loudest for more entitlements, bigger spending, more regulation, etc. They're the ones who demonize businessmen and scream about class warfare. They're one of the largest special interest groups that influence and support the Democratic Party. They're the absolutely least likely recruitment pool for libertarians.

[FrankRep]

So please! Stop the friendly fire and watch who your targets are!


Friendly Fire?


Wisconsin Socialists Want Egypt-style Revolution (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/class-war-is-here-video-of-socialists-rallying-in-wis-supports-becks-theory/)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1LeqQbf4Rs


Related Article:

National Guard May Deploy as Socialists, Unions Wreak Havoc in Wisconsin (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6367-national-guard-may-deploy-as-socialists-unions-wreak-havoc-in-wis)

A coalition of socialists, government-union members and other protesters - some of whom were reportedly bussed in from out of state - wreaked havoc in a protest in Madison, Wisconsin, against proposed budget cuts and a bill that would prevent most government employees from collectively demanding ever-increasing salaries and benefits, prompting Gov. Scott Walker to consider bringing out the National Guard.


Wisconsin Gov. Vows Protesters ‘Will Not Drown Out’ Taxpayers (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/wisconsin-gov-vows-protesters-will-not-drown-out-taxpayers/)
February 18, 2011 | The Blaze

“We’re broke,” the governor admitted of his state, adding that his campaign for office promised “bold” changes and that‘s just what he’s going to do

[ItsTime]

Anyone trying to mug me or have me mugged is not a symptom, it is the problem.

[hazek]

Anyone trying to mug me or have me mugged is not a symptom, it is the problem.

That's where you're wrong. Maybe they're trying to mug you because they didn't learn how to get by in any other way, maybe the government affected their environment in such a way that they are forced to mug you just to get by. I don't condone their mugging but it's not the problem, it's just the symptom of their environment which the government+central banks created.

And if we can't distinguish between the two we do it at our own peril.

I'd just like to remind everyone that most of Germans were not nazis and yet they got pitted against Jews eventually as the cause of their problems even though I'm sure they were merely the symptom. That's how these sort things start. When you can't make a rational distinction between a problem and a symptom.

[Gaius1981]

That's where you're wrong. Maybe they're trying to mug you because they didn't learn how to get by in any other way, maybe the government affected their environment in such a way that they are forced to mug you just to get by. I don't condone their mugging but it's not the problem, it's just the symptom of their environment which the government+central banks created.

And if we can't distinguish between the two we do it at our own peril.

I'd just like to remind everyone that most of Germans were not nazis and yet they got pitted against Jews eventually as the cause of their problems even though I'm sure they were merely the symptom. That's how these sort things start. When you can't make a rational distinction between a problem and a symptom.

The reason why I doubt that many libertarians will see eye-to-eye on you regarding this, is that the majority of libertarians believe in free will. The original definition of a libertarian is, in fact, "someone who believes in free will." What you're proposing seems to be based on determinism, which is basically the view that we're all just slaves to our enviroment, and that we have no personal responsibility for our actions. I disagree with your whole theory, for mostly the same reasons that I reject the determinist view of humanity. These public sector union activists are my political enemies, and they bear a large part of the responsibility for the problems we find ourselves in, for the reasons mentioned in my earlier posts. They're reprehensible, collectivist thugs.

[hazek]

WTF has freewill or determinism have anything to do with what a person choices are in some specific environment??


Would any of these people have these jobs if it weren't for big government and the central bank funding it through inflation? NO. Anything after that is irrelevant. Because if you don't remove the problem you will never get rid of the symptoms.

I really can't fking believe libertarians and Austrian economists would have such a hard fking time grasping this.

p.s.: fking managed to piss me off.

[Gaius1981]

Would any of these people have these jobs if it weren't for big government and the central bank funding it through inflation? NO. Anything after that is irrelevant. Because if you don't remove the problem you will never get rid of the symptoms.

Your view is fundamentally flawed. These people actively campaign for big government, they choose to work in the public sector out of their own free will, they choose to do activism in favor of more entitlements, and they choose to refuse making any compromises or sacrifices when it comes to their entitlements even now. They're irrationally selfish and short-sighted, and mainly concerned with their own immediate gratification at the expense of their fellow citizens. Each and every one of them is personally responsible for his or her own actions; they're not forced to act in a certain way, but choose to do so.

Generations of activists like these are the reason why we have big government and central banking in the first place. They're not merely symptoms; they're initiators, and a fundamental part of the problem. We need to spread libertarians ideas to people who are receptive to them, so that we can turn the tide against these statists.

[hazek]

I see your point. I'm afraid a civil war is then inevitable.

[FrankRep]

I suspect that as more states go broke the Socialists will try to start some type of Bolshevik Revolution and we'll end up like the Soviet Union. History seems to repeat like that.

[lester1/2jr]

frankrep also said socialists were supporting Egypt therefore that was suspect.

at any rate, this is not someting we should support for obvious reasons. Benefits and pensions in the PRIVATE sector have collapsed, lets have a rally about that.

[Gaius1981]

I see your point. I'm afraid a civil war is then inevitable.

I think we'll undoubtedly see mass protests and civil unrest; libertarians and trend researchers such as Gerald Celente have been predicting it for years now. Wisconsin is only the beginning, as massive cuts in spending will be made in all states, by sheer necessity. It's hard to say if we'll see another Civil War though. I'd like to see the individual states press 10th amendment/states' rights legislation, then perhaps seek independence once it becomes clear that the federal government is broke and cannot deliver on its many promises and entitlement programs. I guess the real question is how long the federal government can postpone the problems through the Federal Reserve, and how it will react if states declare themselves independent.

[FrankRep]

frankrep also said socialists were supporting Egypt therefore that was suspect.

at any rate, this is not someting we should support for obvious reasons. Benefits and pensions in the PRIVATE sector have collapsed, lets have a rally about that.

If you haven't noticed already, the Socialists will exploit any issue they can to get more power. Socialists are obsessed with starting Revolutions and trying to take control.

[Gaius1981]

If you haven't noticed already, the Socialists will exploit any issue they can to get more power. Socialists are obsessed with starting Revolutions and trying to take control.

It's a small comfort that the majority of Americans are centre-right, and armed. Due to this, I doubt a revolution would go in favor of socialists. We might end up with a neoconservative type of military dictatorship, but I hope Americans are too good for that.

[Golding]

Any "symptom" of a "problem" is going to disapprove of the elimination of a problem no matter how healthy it might be to do so. Without the underlying problem, the symptom ceases to exist. In this case, without the unreasonable excesses in government spending, unionized public workers will not be able to receive their inordinate benefits off the backs of (frankly) harder workers.

I don't see it as feasible to convince a parasite of the greater good when their role ceases to be. Individuals will fight for their existence. Hopefully common sense will prevail, and these people will adapt to more appropriate non-leeching roles.

[moostraks]

Any "symptom" of a "problem" is going to disapprove of the elimination of a problem no matter how healthy it might be to do so. Without the underlying problem, the symptom ceases to exist. In this case, without the unreasonable excesses in government spending, unionized public workers will not be able to receive their inordinate benefits off the backs of (frankly) harder workers.

I don't see it as feasible to convince a parasite of the greater good when their role ceases to be. Individuals will fight for their existence. Hopefully common sense will prevail, and these people will adapt to more appropriate non-leeching roles.

The problem is in the matter of where these governor's are choosing to exploit a situation by shifting the rewards to favored parties. Unions are being used as a target like minorities were for the bank bailouts. Does it mean that the aforementioned groups should accept some culpability for their participation? Yes...However, you are not witnessing a movement toward respect for the state's citizens but merely a power shift done based upon momentum for change.

[Matt Collins]

Governor Walker of Wisconsin is lying about the union problem:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRFDyqqdwPo

[libertybrewcity]

Big government union loving folks are the last people that will join this movement. Hacking away the artificial union power is the best way to limit government. 99 percent of public union jobs shouldn't even exist to begin with. PS, I don't have emotions.