South Dakota Law Would Make It Legal To Kill Abortion Providers

[bobbyw24]

The internet is straight blowing up at the news on Tuesday that lawmakers in South Dakota are mulling a piece of legislation that would seem to make it legally permissible to kill abortion providers. Here's Mother Jones' Kate Sheppard:

A law under consideration in South Dakota would expand the definition of "justifiable homicide" to include killings that are intended to prevent harm to a fetus -- a move that could make it legal to kill doctors who perform abortions. The Republican-backed legislation, House Bill 1171, has passed out of committee on a nine-to-three party-line vote, and is expected to face a floor vote in the state's GOP-dominated House of Representatives soon.

The bill, sponsored by state Rep. Phil Jensen, a committed foe of abortion rights, alters the state's legal definition of justifiable homicide by adding language stating that a homicide is permissible if committed by a person "while resisting an attempt to harm" that person's unborn child or the unborn child of that person's spouse, partner, parent, or child. If the bill passes, it could in theory allow a woman's father, mother, son, daughter, or husband to kill anyone who tried to provide that woman an abortion -- even if she wanted one.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/15/lawmaker-behind-south-dakota-justifiable-homicide-bill_n_823553.html

[Sola_Fide]

Interesting....

[Stary Hickory]

Holy...really people? Do you honestly believe the bill is intended for this?

[Elwar]

Would that "justifiable homicide" including killings intended to prevent harm to a fetus include killing a woman for not having sex with you (which could eventually lead to a healthy fetus)?

[Sola_Fide]

Would that "justifiable homicide" including killings intended to prevent harm to a fetus include killing a woman for not having sex with you (which could eventually lead to a healthy fetus)?

No. Its not analogous at all.


But here is the most important question: why should there be laws against harming a "fetus"?

[tangent4ronpaul]

I foresee abortion doctors fleeing the state and setting up shop just over the state line.

-t

[Stary Hickory]

Yeah because this bill is all about making it perfectly legal to murder abortion providers....yeah....I mean I wonder sometimes really.

[squarepusher]

Holy...really people? Do you honestly believe the bill is intended for this?

what other meaning could it have?

[Stary Hickory]

what other meaning could it have?

When someone kills a fetus as an act of aggression they can be charged with Homicide and sent to prison. This is not the first time a law like this has been proposed or passed. If someone punches your pregnant wife in the belly and kills her baby....it can be tried as murder. OBVIOUSLY this is what it's about, I just got to wonder what kind of mentality we are dealing with when people assume it's going to be a PUBLIC lynching of abortion providers, ,that they can be hacked down on the streets while the citizens of South Dakota cheer in their bloody thirsty rage.

Oh and that krap coming from a HuffPo site...ought to tell you a lot about it already, paranoid out of touch loonbags really. If you kill someone's unborn child...hell yeah you are liable for murder. Kinda disgusting how far people will go to defend a questionable practice....its really makes me sick to see this psychotic paranoia surroudning this. Abortion is and will always remain a very sad issue...because nobody, can say when life begins really. Here is a clue if you kill somone's fetus without their consent it is murder...I don't care if you consider it a pile of tisue or what have you.

So don't go around kill people's fetuses without their consent...lord. What do abortion supporters want now? The ability to forcibly abort anyones unborn child without repercussion?

[Brett85]

The pro choice people should support this if they really want to be consistent about giving people "the right to choose."

[squarepusher]

When someone kills a fetus as an act of aggression they can be charged with Homicide and sent to prison. This is not the first time a law like this has been proposed or passed. If someone punches your pregnant wife in the belly and kills her baby....it can be tried as murder. OBVIOUSLY this is what it's about, I just got to wonder what kind of mentality we are dealing with when people assume it's going to be a PUBLIC lynching of abortion providers, ,that they can be hacked down on the streets while the citizens of South Dakota cheer in their bloody thirsty rage.

Oh and that krap coming from a HuffPo site...ought to tell you a lot about it already, paranoid out of touch loonbags really. If you kill someone's unborn child...hell yeah you are liable for murder.

so this law is about punching pregnant women in the stomach? Is that a big conservative/party line issue? haven't heard of that before being a real problem

[Sola_Fide]

When someone kills a fetus as an act of aggression they can be charged with Homicide and sent to prison. This is not the first time a law like this has been proposed or passed. If someone punches your pregnant wife in the belly and kills her baby....it can be tried as murder. OBVIOUSLY this is what it's about, I just got to wonder what kind of mentality we are dealing with when people assume it's going to be a PUBLIC lynching of abortion providers, ,that they can be hacked down on the streets while the citizens of South Dakota cheer in their bloody thirsty rage.

Oh and that krap coming from a HuffPo site...ought to tell you a lot about it already, paranoid out of touch loonbags really. If you kill someone's unborn child...hell yeah you are liable for murder.


Exactly:)

I would ask the people here who think a "fetus" is not a person to comment on the absurdity and contradiction of having laws that protect a "fetus" from harm.

If your baby is a "mass of tissue", or a "parasite", or a "fetus", why would there be laws against harming it? Why are doctors held accountable for the harm they might potentially cause this "parasite"?

Do people ask pregnant women how their parasite is doing?

[libertybrewcity]

WTH is wrong with these people?

[Stary Hickory]

so this law is about punching pregnant women in the stomach? Is that a big conservative/party line issue? haven't heard of that before being a real problem

Well I am not sure, but I am certain if a 3rd party killed your unborn child without your consent it would be an issue for you. The fact of the matter is the law is fine, I am quite sure this is not about legalizing the genocide of all abortion providers...call me crazy but I just dont see that. Abortion supporters make me ill exactly because of ho far they are willing to go, they want to define for EVERYONE when their baby is a life and deserves protection under the law....its a aggressive form of rabid support for abortion that really scare me here....the bill is obviously no about killing off abortion doctors, yet people were willing to jump to that conclusion.

[eduardo89]

If some guy tried to abort my child I'd kill him

[AuH20]

So now they cry about the cycle of violence coming full circle? Interesting.....;)

[Sola_Fide]

//

[silentshout]

This is insane.

[FrankRep]

HB 1171 - South Dakota
http://legis.state.sd.us/sessions/2011/Bill.aspx?File=HB1171HJU.htm


FOR AN ACT ENTITLED, An Act to expand the definition of justifiable homicide to provide for the protection of certain unborn children.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA:
Section 1. That § 22-16-34 be amended to read as follows:

22-16-34. Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person while resisting any attempt to murder such person, or to harm the unborn child of such person in a manner and to a degree likely to result in the death of the unborn child, or to commit any felony upon him or her, or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person is.

Section 2. That § 22-16-35 be amended to read as follows:

22-16-35. Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person in the lawful defense of such person, or of his or her husband, wife, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant, or the unborn child of any such enumerated person, if there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony, or to do some great personal injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished.

[teacherone]

very dangerous law.

[squarepusher]

its fairly clear, this is to legalize killing of abortion doctors.

[teacherone]

will wind up with three dead people in a room no doubt.

maniacs.

[FrankRep]

its fairly clear, this is to legalize killing of abortion doctors.

Abortion doctors are allowed to kill though.

[teacherone]

anybody who supports this is a psychopath.

you'll wind up with a dead mother, a dead fetus, and a dead doctor.

sweet. mission accomplished.

sanctity of life preserved.

[specsaregood]

This is insane.

I kinda like it. Telling the feds where they can shove Roe V. Wade in a roundabout way.

[FrankRep]

anybody who supports this is a psychopath.

Killing unborn children is not psychopathic I guess.

:confused:

[teacherone]

Killing unborn children is not psychopathic I guess.

:confused:

shooting up a clinic with a mother and doctor and fetus present?

what's the goal here?

[specsaregood]

shooting up a clinic with a mother and doctor and fetus present?
what's the goal here?

Do you think that abortion laws should be decided at the state or local level?

[Sola_Fide]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LhAJJl3d5Kc/SK1ooOa2CpI/AAAAAAAAAUo/0c5RLlQoj7M/s400/pregnant.jpg

"EWWWWW Cindy! What's that on your stomach?"

"Oh don't worry Peggy, its just a parasite I'm trying to get rid of. No big deal."

[RoyalShock]

The law says that it is only justifiable in the case of attempted murder or felony. If an abortion doctor is performing a legal abortion, then the homicide is not justifiable.

At least, that's how I interpret the law as posted on the previous page of this thread.

So no, it is not making it legal to kill abortion doctors.

[Sola_Fide]

Exactly:)

I would ask the people here who think a "fetus" is not a person to comment on the absurdity and contradiction of having laws that protect a "fetus" from harm.

If your baby is a "mass of tissue", or a "parasite", or a "fetus", why would there be laws against harming it? Why are doctors held accountable for the harm they might potentially cause this "parasite"?

Do people ask pregnant women how their parasite is doing?

Anybody want to take a stab at it?^^^

[pcosmar]

I don't see anything about abortion or doctors.
It is dealing with Justifiable Homicide, which has been recognized most places. All this is doing is adding unborn children to the existing law.

Can someone point out "Abortion Doctor" the the law as it is written?

And these wild eyed claims of shooting up clinics are nothing but twisted fantasy, fear mongering and playing on emotion rather that logic.

[squarepusher]

HB 1171 - South Dakota
http://legis.state.sd.us/sessions/2011/Bill.aspx?File=HB1171HJU.htm


FOR AN ACT ENTITLED, An Act to expand the definition of justifiable homicide to provide for the protection of certain unborn children.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA:
Section 1. That § 22-16-34 be amended to read as follows:

22-16-34. Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person while resisting any attempt to murder such person, or to harm the unborn child of such person in a manner and to a degree likely to result in the death of the unborn child, or to commit any felony upon him or her, or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person is.

Section 2. That § 22-16-35 be amended to read as follows:

22-16-35. Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person in the lawful defense of such person, or of his or her husband, wife, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant, or the unborn child of any such enumerated person, if there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony, or to do some great personal injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished.

actually, re-reading it, it does say that only the person may commit murder. So, a random person cannot goto an abortion clinic and kill a doctor to prevent him from doing an abortion. It has to be the mother herself, and doing so if the abortion is unwilling (so, if she was kidnapped and forced to have an abortion).

[squarepusher]

Huff post SCREWS UP!

[teacherone]

I don't see anything about abortion or doctors.
It is dealing with Justifiable Homicide, which has been recognized most places. All this is doing is adding unborn children to the existing law.

Can someone point out "Abortion Doctor" the the law as it is written?

And these wild eyed claims of shooting up clinics are nothing but twisted fantasy, fear mongering and playing on emotion rather that logic.

thank you for adding clarity to the argument.

+ rep.

i bow out of this thread.

[lester1/2jr]

here's a thign I just wrote about it

Wow what a big deal.

Some http://www.salon.com/news/abortion/index.html?story=/news/feature/2011/02/15/south_dakota_abortion_killing_bill nut in South Dakota is trying to pass a law saying it’s okay to shoot abortion doctors. Everyone donate to Planned Parenthood and call your senator now so we can stop this and save womankind.

Meanwhile, this probably isn’t anything other than a not so clever attempt to outlaw abortion, something all red states want to do. This is a big problem, apparently. They are the American Taliban http://www.amazon.com/American-Taliban-Power-Jihadists-Radical/dp/1936227029 and we need to be preoccupied with their disturbing belief that human life in the womb should be protected, a belief so peculiar and barbaric that only half of Americans share it http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx

Someone explain to me why it is that liberals are against forcing liberal values and democracy at the barrel of a gun on muslims, yet they’re fine with forcing it on their own countrymen? (and yes, you could turn that around: why DO conservatives, who loathe things like the feminist movement, gay rights and MTV want to export these things to the middle east, exactly?)

“It’s not like that. Being against abortion is one thing but this unconstitutional and a slippery slope to fascism and theocracy yadda yadda” answer: yes it is, but here’s the point: IT’S SOUTH DAKOTA. You will never go there in your life! Anyone with a clue probably got out of there sometime around the industrial revolution.

We need to overturn Roe V Wade and let the red states be red and the blue states be blue. Here’s exactly what will happen: All the cool people will leave the red states, then the half cool people will leave then so many people will be gone the Boss Hoggy bigwigs there will have to relent and lift the abortion ban or face a drastic lowering in their (actual, non-morally self satisfied) quality of life.

and yes, I feel bad for rural South Dakota women who have to drive 600 miles to get an abortion but the same overreaching power of the federal governement that allows her to get one despite the sentiment in her state is the one that gives us stuff like the war in Iraq. So you have moral culpabilty for something either way, don’t act superior.

Lester

[dannno]

Holy...really people? Do you honestly believe the bill is intended for this?

Does it matter what the intention is?

edit: looks like you guys have proved it in other round-about ways, good job.

[Southron]

I just have to laugh at the outrage when abortion supporters perceive an innocent life will be killed. Now they know how we feel.

[Maximus]

Squarepusher is right, this bill would allow the mother carrying a child in her womb to kill someone threatening her/her child. It would be hard to imagine a woman getting an abortion, and in the middle of the procedure killing the doctor.

Anyways, even if this were a bill to make it legal to kill abortion doctors; one cannot use an evil means to achieve a good end.

[dannno]

Anybody want to take a stab at it?^^^

The entire premise behind "pro-choice" is that the mother gets to choose whether the life, which belongs to her at that moment, is her property, thrives or not. There are countless things a mother can do to affect what happens to the baby. She can be malnourished, put herself under undue stress, drink alcohol, do drugs, participate in martial arts, ride motorcycles, participate in roller derby, grow various herbs, make them into teas and drink them.. all these things can be detrimental to the fetus yet pregnant women may engage in these activities, YET they are not FORCED to engage in these activities.

I would ask you, what if they made at home do-it-yourself abortion kits that double as, say, amazing potato peeling machines? It would be hard to justify locking somebody up for selling a potato peeler, yet everyone knows they can also be used to perform abortions on yourself in a safe manner.

So now women can abort their own fetuses, so you don't have a doctor to charge for murder anymore. Do you charge the mother with murder? What if the mother had intended on, and would have a baby a few years later, but it was just too early for her? But now she's in prison!! Now who is preventing life from occurring? That's right, I'm looking at you.

I've argued before that the purpose of having a lawful society is to separate dangerous individuals from society to protect individual freedom. If you recall, in the last thread, I showed how by definition and fetus is not an 'individual'. You can believe they are, and I think once they are able to survive on their own they are individuals even if they are in their mother's stomach, by definition, because at that point the mother is essentially 'kidnapping' the baby or holding them hostage..of course the baby doesn't have any desire to go anywhere, so there is no victim, but you can't justifiably murder it at that stage either because it could survive outside the mother. I don't believe they are individuals in the first trimester or so, I don't believe they are aware. A woman who has an abortion is not a threat to society, is really the bottom line. She might be a threat to the potential lives of the fetuses she creates, but so were all the times she decided not to have sex and get pregnant.. she never hurts anybody because she has the abortions early so it doesn't make sense to lock her up when that act in itself may likely be preventing life.

[FrankRep]

actually, re-reading it, it does say that only the person may commit murder. So, a random person cannot goto an abortion clinic and kill a doctor to prevent him from doing an abortion. It has to be the mother herself, and doing so if the abortion is unwilling (so, if she was kidnapped and forced to have an abortion).

Huffington Post FAIL!

:D

[pcosmar]

Is there anyone that does not understand the concept of Justifiable Homicide ?
I have only seen the ruling once personally, but I do understand the concept.

This bill seeks to add unborn persons to the criteria.

[lester1/2jr]

http://streetbonersandtvcarnage.com/blog/dear-street-carnage-south-dakota-tries-to-legalize-killing-abortionists/


street carnage ran my column I "previewed" here. Not in the real section in the readers/ we don't know them don't blame us section.


go and bad mouth it in the comments and make me look controversial. ad hominems welcome

[erowe1]

anybody who supports this is a psychopath.

you'll wind up with a dead mother, a dead fetus, and a dead doctor.

sweet. mission accomplished.

sanctity of life preserved.

Where are you getting this? It looked to me like this bill would only protect a person for killing the doctor. If they killed the mother and fetus, they'd still be on the hook for murder.

[erowe1]

actually, re-reading it, it does say that only the person may commit murder. So, a random person cannot goto an abortion clinic and kill a doctor to prevent him from doing an abortion. It has to be the mother herself, and doing so if the abortion is unwilling (so, if she was kidnapped and forced to have an abortion).

No, it also allows the close relatives of the mother to do it.

[AGRP]

Perhaps the pro-choicers would endorse this if the doctor has a temporary problem with speaking the native language or properly communicating...just as babies do.

[erowe1]

But the other mitigating factor in this story is the words "under consideration."

Translation: Some legislator authored this bill, but it's not actually going to pass.

If I had a nickel for every time somebody tried to make a story out of a bill that was nothing more than "under consideration" somewhere, I'd be the envy of everybody here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?278604-The-Nitty-Gritty-on-Nickels).

[Christian Liberty]

The pro choice people should support this if they really want to be consistent about giving people "the right to choose."

Bump for awesomeness (I'd support it too :p )

[erowe1]

Would that "justifiable homicide" including killings intended to prevent harm to a fetus include killing a woman for not having sex with you (which could eventually lead to a healthy fetus)?

Well, since there is no conceivable way that the woman would be harming any fetus in that scenario, what do you think?

[jbauer]

anybody who supports this is a psychopath.

you'll wind up with a dead mother, a dead fetus, and a dead doctor.

sweet. mission accomplished.

sanctity of life preserved.

Can we quickly pass this law in CA,NY, IL and any other liberal hotbed!!! Knock out 3 of em in one swoop!!