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View Full Version : Red State: Paul supporters are classless twits who follow him like rats leaving Hameln.




YumYum
02-15-2011, 08:00 AM
This is some pretty harsh criticisms on the Red State web site. This is a sign of things to come.

: "Show us the shekels. Draft dodger. Murderous scum.

Foul epithets directed at men who accomplish more in any given day than the combined mass of Ron Paul supporters will accomplish in the totality of their miserable pissant lives.

These are people who fancy themselves conservatives and believe they have some place honor within the conservative movement. They are wrong. This odious behavior will be neither forgiven nor forgotten."

http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2011/02/13/ron-paul-supporters-boo-heckle-rumsfeld-and-cheney/

William R
02-15-2011, 08:05 AM
streiff is one of the most classless scumbags at Redstate in a position of power. Eric Erickson really associates with some low rent characters.

ItsTime
02-15-2011, 08:22 AM
So what are Romney paid staffers who boo?

winston_blade
02-15-2011, 08:30 AM
We probably shouldn't keep giving them traffic, though. I wonder how much they get just from us....or there could be an all out flood of RP Army on Redstate.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 08:31 AM
The hecklers are hurting us. We need to show some class and represent Dr. Paul in the finest way.

I saw the devastation this kind of behavior caused in the last election. The MSM is part of an entrenched, powerful machine. They already have it geared up to marginalize him again. I've been paying close attention because I intend to put every effort into the grassroots getting him elected if he runs. I'm telling you, we have to think strategically, we have to think long-term when we are about to react to something we don't like. If you are at an event showing support for him and you heckle, shout speakers down, throw snowballs, write vicious posts on his behalf other web sites, threaten media personalities, and all the other stupid shit that was done last time - you will doom his chances.

If we don't learn from our mistakes last time, we can never consider ourselves pertinent in this fight for freedom. I implore those of you who feel the need to react negatively in public to do so independently of your support for Dr. Paul.

RM918
02-15-2011, 08:33 AM
I think we've made them angry.

People like this with legitimate hatred in their hearts have far more wrong with them than their political thinking. There's no way we can stop EVERY supposed RP supporter from misbehaving. They see two or three incidents and it solidifies their whole opinion of the rest of us, so what's the point?

YumYum
02-15-2011, 08:35 AM
We probably shouldn't keep giving them traffic, though. I wonder how much they get just from us....or there could be an all out flood of RP Army on Redstate.

I don't know if anyone caught this, but they are banning people for being Ron Paul supporters.

: "Their monomania — along with mouthbreathing and poor personal hygiene — forced us to take the unprecedented step of banning them on sight."

AuH20
02-15-2011, 08:38 AM
I think it's time to pen a rebuttal. But this time from a paleo. They love slamming libertarians but are disarmed when it's paleoconservatives returning fire. "Blah, blah you're a leftist" doesn't fly.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 08:51 AM
I don't know if anyone caught this, but they are banning people for being Ron Paul supporters.

: "Their monomania — along with mouthbreathing and poor personal hygiene — forced us to take the unprecedented step of banning them on sight."

I think he was referring to last time around. If you read the comments section, there are Paul supporters responding.

speciallyblend
02-15-2011, 08:53 AM
i just joined but i cannot comment yet??. redstate is everything that is wrong with the gop! Redstate supports obama republicans!!

YumYum
02-15-2011, 08:56 AM
I think he was referring to last time around. If you read the comments section, there are Paul supporters responding.

Ok..I caught that.

ClayTrainor
02-15-2011, 08:56 AM
The hecklers are hurting us.

The thing about libertarians is that They don't tend to think collectively, they think independently. They don't tend to follow "leaders", Ron Paul being no exception, as much as we all like him.

I personally have absolutely no problem with the heckling of war-mongering fascists. The time to "sit down and shut up" is over. I stood up and cheered when i watched the youtube of someone shouting "War criminal" at Cheney.

It's good to see the neo-cons get dominated and heckled in my opinion. It's good to see their online shills start to attack us. Bring it on!!! This is what 2012 is gonna be all about for the libertarians. Let's get in their face, let's stop playing their game, and lets go on the offensive! The time for "being respectful" towards fascist neo-cons needs to end. It's time to expose them for the criminals they are.

These people support and push for the most abhorrent types of human behaviour imaginable. Murder, kidnapping, etc. There is no reason to show them any respect, they are not worthy.

/rant

CableNewsJunkie
02-15-2011, 09:00 AM
All organizations and movements include members that although well-meaning, might do the movement harm by not considering the consequences of their actions.

I joined this movement to get away from the Bill O'Reilly / Sean Hannity-style shouting matches and use ideas, logic, and reason to win people over.

I feel a lot of the same passion and emotion that these guys feel when they shouted down people at CPAC...however, isn't it obvious that we're now receiving "Blowback" because of it?

Let's please consider conducting ourselves more politely in the future. There is strength in numbers - and emphasis should be placed on growing our numbers.

The good thing is we might actually pick up a few progressives after this whole incident (but maybe not as many as we could have in the long-run) - but we're back at square one with a lot of the neocons.

Austrian Econ Disciple
02-15-2011, 09:01 AM
Are they going to start bombing us and taking our property? Seems like it fits right up their alley.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 09:04 AM
The thing about libertarians is that They don't tend to think collectively, they think independently. They don't tend to follow "leaders", Ron Paul being no exception, as much as we all like him.

I personally have absolutely no problem with the heckling of war-mongering fascists. The time to "sit down and shut up" is over. I stood up and cheered when i watched the youtube of someone shouting "War criminal" at Cheney.

It's good to see the neo-cons get dominated and heckled in my opinion. It's good to see their online shills start to attack us. Bring it on!!! This is what 2012 is gonna be all about for the libertarians. Let's get in their face, let's stop playing their game, and lets go on the offensive! The time for "being respectful" towards fascist neo-cons needs to end. It's time to expose them for the criminals they are.

These people support and push for the most abhorrent types of human behaviour imaginable. Murder, kidnapping, etc. There is no reason to show them any respect, they are not worthy.

/rant

This is all fine if you're, as you say, acting independently. But when they make it known that they are RP supporters, it changes from independent opinion to one that is representative of Ron Paul. It is necessary, as a RP supporter to, at all times, think strategically. We are up against an entrenched, powerful machine. It behooves us to use common sense tactics.

YumYum
02-15-2011, 09:08 AM
All organizations and movements include members that although well-meaning, might do the movement harm by not considering the consequences of their actions.

I joined this movement to get away from the Bill O'Reilly / Sean Hannity-style shouting matches and use ideas, logic, and reason to win people over.

I feel a lot of the same passion and emotion that these guys feel when they shouted down people at CPAC...however, isn't it obvious that we're now receiving "Blowback" because of it?

Let's please consider conducting ourselves more politely in the future. There is strength in numbers - and emphasis should be placed on growing our numbers.

The good thing is we might actually pick up a few progressives after this whole incident (but maybe not as many as we could have in the long-run) - but we're back at square one with a lot of the neocons.

Ron Paul wants us to integrate with other Republicans. That means assimilating. I agree with you that we can accomplish a lot more by keeping our cool, but we all have a passion that the neocons can't touch. What we need to do is learn how to use our passion in ways that will help people; not turn them away from us.

ClayTrainor
02-15-2011, 09:13 AM
This is all fine if you're, as you say, acting independently. But when they make it known that they are RP supporters, it changes from independent opinion to one that is representative of Ron Paul.

How do you know, for example, the guy who shouted "War Criminal" at Cheney was even a Ron Paul supporter?



It is necessary, as a RP supporter to, at all times, think strategically. We are up against an entrenched, powerful machine. It behooves us to use common sense tactics.

If by common sense tactics, you mean playing politics and showing respect to warmongerers and giving them a chance to espouse their murderous views without controversy, than I must disagree.

Controversy gets people paying attention. The more we get attention in the MSM, good or bad, the more people will start trying to debate us, and that's when opportunities for changing individual minds are presented.

realtonygoodwin
02-15-2011, 09:14 AM
Ron Paul wants us to integrate with other Republicans. That means assimilating. I agree with you that we can accomplish a lot more by keeping our cool, but we all have a passion that the neocons can't touch. What we need to do is learn how to use our passion in ways that will help people; not turn them away from us.

So true.

It hurts the cause of liberty when people draw attention to themselves rather than the cause of liberty.

wizardwatson
02-15-2011, 09:27 AM
This is a great example of where some organization would do us dome good. Instead of flocking to the comment sections of bad press like an army of insects, we should maybe all collaborate and respond to these kind of things press release style. Have a community of writers that responds to these things by collaboration and perhaps voting. With the condition that we answer these heinous criticisms with class and humor.

So we hunt down these bad press items and basically have a collaborative blog that links to original document and that blog has responses to as many Ron Paulite/Ron paul bashers as we can find and have time to rebuke.

Deborah K is right, we should show them that we are classy, and perhaps do that by everyone supporting a classy rebuke of negative press. Instead of wasting a lot of time writing comments to articles we're better spent by being united in our reponse, and perhaps just posting links to the collective liberty-flavored rebuke of the article.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 09:28 AM
How do you know, for example, the guy who shouted "War Criminal" at Cheney was even a Ron Paul supporter?


Because the article stated that RP supporters staged a walk-out and heckled.


If by common sense tactics, you mean playing politics and showing respect to warmongerers and giving them a chance to espouse their murderous views without controversy, than I must disagree.

Controversy gets people paying attention. The more we get attention in the MSM, good or bad, the more people will start trying to debate us, and that's when opportunities for changing individual minds are presented

If you want to protest warmongers, do it independently. Doing it as a supporter aka representative of Ron Paul hurts the objective. If you think it helps, you are sadly mistaken, and last election should be proof enough to you.

YumYum
02-15-2011, 09:34 AM
This is a great example of where some organization would do us dome good. Instead of flocking to the comment sections of bad press like an army of insects, we should maybe all collaborate and respond to these kind of things press release style.

lol!! I think they expect us to show up wearing brown-shirts. But, who knows? Maybe wearing some type of uniform wouldn't be such a bad idea.

ClayTrainor
02-15-2011, 09:39 AM
Because the article stated that RP supporters staged a walk-out and heckled.


How do you know they were all ron paul supporters? Because an article on red-state said so?

There were many people there who are quite pissed at warmongers and participated in the walk-out, who may not identify as Ron Paul supporters. They may just identify as libertarians.

I even saw a booth for the libertarian party there, in a youtube vid. They had a wall of shame, which basically denounced all the warmongers and fascists.



If you want to protest warmongers, do it independently. Doing it as a supporter aka representative of Ron Paul hurts the objective.

I do everything independently, no need to worry about that with me.



If you think it helps, you are sadly mistaken, and last election should be proof enough to you.

So you would've preferred that kokesh sat down and shut up and showed mccain some respect?

http://www.refusingtokill.net/images/kokesh_mccain.jpg

DamianTV
02-15-2011, 09:46 AM
Im sure the idiot that wrote this article also thinks that the country is in great economic shape, there is no problem with illegal immigration, and that we are headed in the right direction, invading country after country and all.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 09:56 AM
How do you know they were all ron paul supporters? Because an article on red-state said so?

There were many people there who are quite pissed at warmongers and participated in the walk-out, who may not identify as Ron Paul supporters. They may just identify as libertarians.

I even saw a booth for the libertarian party there, in a youtube vid. They had a wall of shame, which basically denounced all the warmongers and fascists.



I do everything independently, no need to worry about that with me.



So you would've preferred that kokesh sat down and shut up and showed mccain some respect?

http://www.refusingtokill.net/images/kokesh_mccain.jpg

Clay, the whole "how do you know for sure they were supporters? " can be answered in the same way - how do you know for sure that they weren't supporters? It's moot to make that argument. No one but you is making that claim. The point is, we are faced with having to deal with the repercussions of RP supporters creating the same bad P.R. as last time. It blows up in our face.

As to Adam, I don't believe at the time he protested that he was representing RP.

RonPaulFanInGA
02-15-2011, 10:06 AM
This is all fine if you're, as you say, acting independently. But when they make it known that they are RP supporters, it changes from independent opinion to one that is representative of Ron Paul. It is necessary, as a RP supporter to, at all times, think strategically. We are up against an entrenched, powerful machine. It behooves us to use common sense tactics.

Can't fathom why if some Ron Paul supporters feel the need to make asses of themselves in public, they don't have the political smarts to wear some opposition candidate's paraphernalia or at least nothing openly labeling them a representative of Ron Paul.

It's like some alleged supporters just want to hurt him.

JK/SEA
02-15-2011, 10:11 AM
Well it appears Ron Paul supporters need a code of ethics. Any ideas?...i'll start with one.

1. Sit down and shut up.
2.?

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 10:14 AM
I think the main thing everyone is forgetting is RON PAUL DIDN'T GET MAD AT US. There are people here that are ready for a fight, see how important liberty is. And then there are the negative people. Stop it, really. We need to be cocky. We need to be confident. That's how you grow the ranks within the ACTUALLY voting block. Young independents. Who did the hecklers piss off? FOX News? Get it through your heads people, those viewers WILL NOT VOTE FOR RON. Stop living in a dream world where Muslim hating warmongers have a change of heart. Its really doing nothing for us, this in fighting.

We are loud, young, educated, confident and cocky. Just like Rand is in the Senate. Just like Ron is in the House. Minus the young part of course. Right in their face. Ron called Obama a warmonger yesterday on National TV.

They want to ignore us? We ignore them. Out with the old, in with the new. Maybe its because we are Americans? And as a population we have forgotten how to change things. We try to infiltrate them, when in fact they infiltrate us (Tea Party).

The main thing we have going for us is ENERGY and TRUTH. Some people here want Ron Paul to be president for their own reasons. I see the man, as he sees himself. An educator, who's words grow a revolution. Win or lose, we are winning. Stop worrying about "WHAT IF HE DOESN'T WIN!!!!?" Be proud and loud that you "get it".

If a bunch of ignorant RedStaters think Cheney is some American hero, let them think that. THEY are in the minority. Not us. Their way is dying.

ronpaulhawaii
02-15-2011, 10:16 AM
Regarding the point made about Adam. I was part of that whole thing. After unsuccessfully trying to talk him into less controversial activism, I resigned myself to making lemonade... (I know a bit about cat-herding and it ain't pretty)

The fact remains that this particular picture was used mercilessly against us in Adam's primary. This type activism, that Adam was famous for, also hurt other candidates... Schiff and I had a talk about this very thing in the lobby at CPAC...

While "heckling" is a time honored form of political discourse, those who wield it carry an enormous responsibility. For certain we could use more people at these events who know how to play well with (and win over) others without looking like bullies or buffoons...

Sola_Fide
02-15-2011, 10:19 AM
Can't fathom why if some Ron Paul supporters feel the need to make asses of themselves in public, they don't have the political smarts to wear some opposition candidate's paraphernalia or at least nothing openly labeling them a representative of Ron Paul.

It's like some alleged supporters just want to hurt him.

Yes^^^

MelissaCato
02-15-2011, 10:23 AM
Unbelievable. I sent this to the National Guard. That is more hateful than anything that happened at CPAC. It is clear as the blue skys WHO needs to sit down and STFU. IMO. You people are giving them what they want too. Pfsssst.
Ron Paul 2012 !!!

ConstitutionalRepublic
02-15-2011, 10:24 AM
I still don't understand the vitriol here for free thinkers who would boo the presentation of a "defender of the constitution" award, and somehow now even claim they are AGAINST Paul, when Paul himself just went on TV the other day and called the President a warmonger. Are you going to tell Paul he is immature and needs to grow up? Are you going to tell Paul that he doesn't support Paul?

akforme
02-15-2011, 10:25 AM
The hecklers are hurting us. We need to show some class and represent Dr. Paul in the finest way.

if it wasn't this it would be something else they'd be bitching about.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 10:26 AM
If we sit quietly, they will just ignore us. Its so obvious. Its funny how we want to "play their game", when most of "their game" is being bullies and full of insults. So pick, do we play THAT game?

If you think like an underdog, you lose like an underdog.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 10:27 AM
if it wasn't this it would be something else they'd be bitching about.

Why give them fodder?

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 10:29 AM
responded to wrong post

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 10:30 AM
If we sit quietly, they will just ignore us. Its so obvious. Its funny how we want to "play their game", when most of "their game" is being bullies and full of insults. So pick, do we play THAT game?

If you think like an underdog, you lose like an underdog.

Why make it easier for them to hate us? We should be making it harder.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 10:31 AM
I still don't understand the vitriol here for free thinkers who would boo the presentation of a "defender of the constitution" award, and somehow now even claim they are AGAINST Paul, when Paul himself just went on TV the other day and called the President a warmonger. Are you going to tell Paul he is immature and needs to grow up? Are you going to tell Paul that he doesn't support Paul?

He always acts like a gentleman, even when he is directly insulted.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 10:35 AM
Why make it easier for them to hate us? We should be making it harder.

Lol, they already hate us. That's the point. We like drugs, peace, gays and atheists. AND, we are young and stupid.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 10:35 AM
I think the main thing everyone is forgetting is RON PAUL DIDN'T GET MAD AT US. There are people here that are ready for a fight, see how important liberty is. And then there are the negative people. Stop it, really. We need to be cocky. We need to be confident. That's how you grow the ranks within the ACTUALLY voting block. Young independents. Who did the hecklers piss off? FOX News? Get it through your heads people, those viewers WILL NOT VOTE FOR RON. Stop living in a dream world where Muslim hating warmongers have a change of heart. Its really doing nothing for us, this in fighting.

We are loud, young, educated, confident and cocky. Just like Rand is in the Senate. Just like Ron is in the House. Minus the young part of course. Right in their face. Ron called Obama a warmonger yesterday on National TV.

They want to ignore us? We ignore them. Out with the old, in with the new. Maybe its because we are Americans? And as a population we have forgotten how to change things. We try to infiltrate them, when in fact they infiltrate us (Tea Party).

The main thing we have going for us is ENERGY and TRUTH. Some people here want Ron Paul to be president for their own reasons. I see the man, as he sees himself. An educator, who's words grow a revolution. Win or lose, we are winning. Stop worrying about "WHAT IF HE DOESN'T WIN!!!!?" Be proud and loud that you "get it".

If a bunch of ignorant RedStaters think Cheney is some American hero, let them think that. THEY are in the minority. Not us. Their way is dying.

He didn't admonish anyone publicly, but I'm guessing he has a problem with rude, childish supporters. If he didn't, then why would he take the time to email everyone and ask them to be civil?

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 10:37 AM
Lol, they already hate us. That's the point. We like drugs, peace, gays and atheists. AND, we are young and stupid.

That does not represent the whole of Ron Paul supporters, only a fraction of us. If we are determined to win this next election, we have to do a better job strategizing, and acting like classless thugs isn't going to win anyone over to our side.

AuH20
02-15-2011, 10:40 AM
Want to shut them up real fast and anger them to boot? Here's how. Ask them why they support nation building and wanton imperialism in the name of noted progressives like FDR and Woodrow Wilson? #2 ask them why they are die hard advocates for centralized banking in the vein of Karl Marx? I brutalize neocons for a living.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 10:41 AM
Dr. Paul is a gentleman. But don't we all like it when he gets fired up? We are speaking the actual truth. If it comes off as "crazy and loud" to people, its because they don't understand it. Its like trying to convince someone the world isn't flat back when that was the common perspective. PROOF is the only way to convince them. Ron Paul as stayed relevant for two reasons, he's loud and confident followers, and that he's been RIGHT on almost everything since 2008.

We are poking the dragon. When it flips out and does something stupid, its going to be hard for them to still look like the good guys.

Its like Egypt. Sorry America, can't really save face this time. No matter how much MSM tries. The cat is out of the bag.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 10:42 AM
Want to shut them up real fast and anger them to boot? Here's how. Ask them why they support nation building and wanton imperialism in the name of noted progressives like FDR and Woodrow Wilson? #2 ask them why they are die hard advocates for centralized banking in the vein of Karl Marx? I brutalize neocons for a living.

Exactly. Just ask questions. Make them think, which they can't do. So then they act out like children.

We might be able to scare them enough so they don't come out and vote.

ConstitutionalRepublic
02-15-2011, 10:42 AM
That does not represent the whole of Ron Paul supporters, only a fraction of us. If we are determined to win this next election, we have to do a better job strategizing, and acting like classless thugs isn't going to win anyone over to our side.

And I'm still struggling to grasp how booing classless thugs makes us classless thugs. If you really WANT to win an election, you have to distance yourself from the neo-con wing of the party. No matter how many times you repeat your message, if you don't verbally and clearly distance yourself from them the average voter will just assume voting for a GOP backed Ron Paul is just voting for another George Bush. Sending the message that we are NOT with them and we do NOT support them with some harmless boos is no different than Ron going on national TV and calling the President a warmonger (which I also support). If you don't make it clear who we are and if Ron were to get into a general election with Obama, KOS/Huffington/MSNBC/the rest would all simply inform their loyal viewers that Ron is just another neo-con with a new brand.

Actions speak louder than words.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 10:47 AM
That does not represent the whole of Ron Paul supporters, only a fraction of us. If we are determined to win this next election, we have to do a better job strategizing, and acting like classless thugs isn't going to win anyone over to our side.

It doesn't matter what you see yourself as. I'm talking about how they see you/us. Tell me, please, list the groups of people you want to "win over". 70 year old McCain voters?

The anti-war crowd on the left we can get. We can pretty much guilt trip them. Just like Ron did ON TV LAST NIGHT. He's not pulling punches. Can't wait around for the unchangeable to change.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 10:48 AM
Actions speak louder than words.

Exactly. But this is America. People are just afraid to act. Its our natural way by now.

TomtheTinker
02-15-2011, 10:49 AM
"Ron Paul is one of the outstanding leaders fighting for a stronger national defense. As a former Air Force officer, he knows well the needs of our armed forces, and he always puts them first. We need to keep him fighting for our country."

-The great Ronald Reagan

This attitude towards Ron Paul isn't much different than the attitude the establishment GOP had towards Barry Goldwater when him and his supporters had to fight tooth and nail to get the nomination. The principles of the Old Right are returning & I fail to see why many fear that idea.


Lets see if I get banned from Red State for outing Reagan/.

MelissaCato
02-15-2011, 10:49 AM
I didn't see one C4L classless thug @ CPAC. WTF are you people talking about ? Maybe next time you BS'rs can ducktape our mouths and maybe shackle us while we stand in line for the ballroom. LOL NOT.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 10:52 AM
And I'm still struggling to grasp how booing classless thugs makes us classless thugs. If you really WANT to win an election, you have to distance yourself from the neo-con wing of the party. No matter how many times you repeat your message, if you don't verbally and clearly distance yourself from them the average voter will just assume voting for a GOP backed Ron Paul is just voting for another George Bush. Sending the message that we are NOT with them and we do NOT support them with some harmless boos is no different than Ron going on national TV and calling the President a warmonger (which I also support). If you don't make it clear who we are and if Ron were to get into a general election with Obama, KOS/Huffington/MSNBC/the rest would all simply inform their loyal viewers that Ron is just another neo-con with a new brand.

Actions speak louder than words.

I see you're new here, and welcome, btw. I don't know how long you've been a supporter, but I've been one for 4 years now. I saw the devastation this kind of behavior caused in the last election. The MSM is part of an entrenched, powerful machine. They already have it geared up to marginalize him again. I've been paying close attention because I intend to put every effort into the grassroots getting him elected if he runs. I'm telling you, we have to think strategically, we have to think long-term when we are about to react to something we don't like. If you are at an event showing support for him and you heckle, shout speakers down, throw snowballs, write vicious posts on his behalf other web sites, threaten media personalities, and all the other stupid shit that was done last time - you will doom his chances.

If we don't learn from our mistakes last time, we can never consider ourselves pertinent in this fight for freedom. I implore those of you who feel the need to react negatively in public to do so independently of your support for Dr. Paul.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 10:53 AM
It doesn't matter what you see yourself as. I'm talking about how they see you/us. Tell me, please, list the groups of people you want to "win over". 70 year old McCain voters?

The anti-war crowd on the left we can get. We can pretty much guilt trip them. Just like Ron did ON TV LAST NIGHT. He's not pulling punches. Can't wait around for the unchangeable to change.

I want Glenn Beck viewers and Sarah Palin supporters, and Tea Partiers.

MelissaCato
02-15-2011, 10:55 AM
And I love what Adam Kokesh did that night. I thought we all did back then.

Brian4Liberty
02-15-2011, 10:55 AM
This is some pretty harsh criticisms on the Red State web site. This is a sign of things to come.

: "Show us the shekels. Draft dodger. Murderous scum.

Foul epithets directed at men who accomplish more in any given day than the combined mass of Ron Paul supporters will accomplish in the totality of their miserable pissant lives.

These are people who fancy themselves conservatives and believe they have some place honor within the conservative movement. They are wrong. This odious behavior will be neither forgiven nor forgotten."

http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2011/02/13/ron-paul-supporters-boo-heckle-rumsfeld-and-cheney/

This is a duplicate thread (old news):

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?279379-Ron-Paul-Supporters-Boo-Heckle-Rumsfeld-and-Cheney

Question: did anyone actually hear someone yell "shekels"? That may be made-up by someone.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 10:56 AM
I didn't see one C4L classless thug @ CPAC. WTF are you people talking about ? Maybe next time you BS'rs can ducktape our mouths and maybe shackle us while we stand in line for the ballroom. LOL NOT.

Are you claiming the article is a lie? That no RP supporters shouted down speakers, walked out, or heckled?

AuH20
02-15-2011, 10:56 AM
I want Glenn Beck viewers and Sarah Palin supporters, and Tea Partiers.

You can get those. The GOP rank and file not so much.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 10:57 AM
Want to shut them up real fast and anger them to boot? Here's how. Ask them why they support nation building and wanton imperialism in the name of noted progressives like FDR and Woodrow Wilson? #2 ask them why they are die hard advocates for centralized banking in the vein of Karl Marx? I brutalize neocons for a living.

It doesn't work, though. They don't change their minds, and they certainly don't shut up. They do get angry though, which seems counter-productive.

I don't know what the answer is, aside from getting involved in the local GOP, that is.

sailingaway
02-15-2011, 11:04 AM
I'm not sure anyone really ever said 'show us the sheckels'. I sure didn't hear it on any of the video clips. Are we sure this isn't like those 'racist remarks' supposedly made to the black caucus at the Kill the Bill Tea party rally that later turned up not to have ever been made? Did ANYONE who was there hear that, regardless of who said it?

And there were other anti interventionist folks there, not just our guys.

However I agree the hecklers really hurt us to the point when anyone who doesn't like Ron can now yell anything and people will assume it is Ron's supporters.

And apparently they can just SAY someone yelled something, and people will believe we did that, too.

MelissaCato
02-15-2011, 11:06 AM
Are you claiming the article is a lie? That no RP supporters shouted down speakers, walked out, or heckled?

Ahhh what I'm saying is you people are following the wrong publishers. Prolly the only people who care what these asshats write is people like .. ohh like some on this thread who love nill drama. If you think 4 1 sec I'm gonna drop my head, sit down and hang my head because soeone yelled war criminal at Rumsfeld. Ya'll R sadly mistaken. But, maybe that's just me. <sigh>

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:07 AM
Maybe the best way to really get the Neo-Cons to think (if some of you think that's would work) is to connect Ron and Ronald?

http://garlinggauge.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/ron_paul_reagan_3.jpg

TrentEmberson
02-15-2011, 11:07 AM
I'm with Lew Rockwell on this one - the Ron Paul Kids Did Us Proud (http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/78008.html) at CPAC. I'd add the caveat that it's crucial to win over the onlookers when you do this sort of thing, but both this year and last year at CPAC there can be no question who won the audience's sympathy. And it wasn't Sorba or Cheney, which is the reason why the status-quo is attacking us - because we're winning their market share. Cartels don't like that.

sailingaway
02-15-2011, 11:08 AM
Ahhh what I'm saying is you people are following the wrong publishers. Prolly the only people who care what these asshats write is people like .. ohh like some on this thread who love nill drama. If you think 4 1 sec I'm gonna drop my head, sit down and hang my head because soeone yelled war criminal at Rumsfeld. Ya'll R sadly mistaken. But, maybe that's just me. <sigh>

Well, no, there has been a real effort with people at redstate, and one of their guys endorsed Rand in the Senate race, which proved very persuasive to swaths of Republicans, so this is a loss of potentially open minds. I don't think it is fruitful to whip ourselves, but it might be helpful to notice the results of our actions.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 11:09 AM
Ahhh what I'm saying is you people are following the wrong publishers. Prolly the only people who care what these asshats write is people like .. ohh like some on this thread who love nill drama. If you think 4 1 sec I'm gonna drop my head, sit down and hang my head because soeone yelled war criminal at Rumsfeld. Ya'll R sadly mistaken. But, maybe that's just me. <sigh>

Whatever floats your boat. Just please don't do it while you're representing the Good Doctor. That's really the point.

ronpaulhawaii
02-15-2011, 11:10 AM
And I love what Adam Kokesh did that night. I thought we all did back then.

IMO - it is not a matter of loving what he did, or not; it is a matter of moving the ball down the field towards liberty. The circumstances were much different so comparisons are complicated. I was just pointing out that this type activism hurt us in our electoral races last year (and even today people are trying to smear Glen with the guilt by association -with Adam- brush. Sad, but true...)

angelatc
02-15-2011, 11:10 AM
Ahhh what I'm saying is you people are following the wrong publishers. Prolly the only people who care what these asshats write is people like .. ohh like some on this thread who love nill drama. If you think 4 1 sec I'm gonna drop my head, sit down and hang my head because soeone yelled war criminal at Rumsfeld. Ya'll R sadly mistaken. But, maybe that's just me. <sigh>

We can't control your reactions. But it is indeed rude to yell out comments at speakers who were invited on the stage, and that's just that. And I did hang my head. Ron Paul has asked us over and over and over not to be rude. This is not what he wants, and it reflects badly on him.

MelissaCato
02-15-2011, 11:11 AM
Ya, thanks for the whippin'.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 11:12 AM
I'm with Lew Rockwell on this one - the Ron Paul Kids Did Us Proud (http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/78008.html) at CPAC. I'd add the caveat that it's crucial to win over the onlookers when you do this sort of thing, but both this year and last year at CPAC there can be no question who won the audience's sympathy. And it wasn't Sorba or Cheney, which is the reason why the status-quo is attacking us - because we're winning their market share. Cartels don't like that.

Poor strategic judgement imo. Smacks of tunnel vision.

Edit: Not what you wrote, but what Rockwell wrote.

nurse_emily
02-15-2011, 11:13 AM
If you see another Ron Paul supporter being disrespectful it is your duty to pull them to the side and chastise them. No "LOL" no "oh well." We can not tolerate this kind of crap in our movement. also...the more you link up their websites, the more popular the site becomes on Google.

If you see it happening.. pull them to the side and take care of it when it happens.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:16 AM
I want Glenn Beck viewers and Sarah Palin supporters, and Tea Partiers.

You won't get them. Muslim Brotherhood, Muslim Brotherhood, Muslim Brotherhood. I'm sorry, but its true. They don't think rationally like you and I do. They didn't get mad about spending until Obama was elected. Doesn't that show you something about them? I (nicely) debate many of them DAILY on Twitter, most of who have "Don't Tread on Me" avatars and quote Jefferson. Whenever we get to foreign policy, the fear sets in. "America, Fuck Yea!" attitude is PART of them. We quote Ghandi and sometimes denounce Israel. Unless they are Anti-Semites, which some are, they don't want to listen.

Believe me, I would be 100% on board if I felt it was working. But I went to every local Tea Party near me. I went to Washington D.C. Its very, very, very frustrating as a young person getting looked at like some dumb kid. That's how they looked at me. Get them all together and it ALWAYS turns into God, U.S.A., Troops, Us vs. them. They like it. It gives them purpose. They think they are REALLY fighting evil.

I've given up on them. I have however, had tons of in roads with random younger people. Obama voters. Independents. Non-political pot smokers. Homosexuals. Anti-War liberals. They also feel they are fighting good vs. evil, but at least our guy is on the GOOD side with them. Ron Paul is an evil, crazy person to neo-cons. Not because we heckle. But because he's a "Muslim lover" that blames 9/11 on the great people of America.

That's reality. At least around here.

hrdman2luv
02-15-2011, 11:17 AM
My suggestion would be to those who support Ron Paul & are a member of "RedState", to invite debate, support what Ron Paul supports, just don't mention his name... When another poster says something about Ron Paul, defend only his idea's, and not him. Because they can bash RP all they want to. But they can't debate his conservatism...

The only difference between their kind of conservatism and RP's (for the most part) is foreign policy, defence and military spending.

I have too short of a fuse. So I can't practice what I preach... I admit that.. But there are those who are more patient than I, who could put things to them in a way they could understand... I would just call them stupid and rag on them for voting for McCain..

Brian4Liberty
02-15-2011, 11:17 AM
Are we sure this isn't like those 'racist remarks' supposedly made to the black caucus at the Kill the Bill Tea party rally that later turned up not to have ever been made?

Exactly. What's next? "Ron Paul supporters invade hospital and throw babies out of incubators"?

MelissaCato
02-15-2011, 11:18 AM
Whatever floats your boat. Just please don't do it while you're representing the Good Doctor. That's really the point.

Ya ok, it was all my fault. Ron Paul 2012 !!!!

nurse_emily
02-15-2011, 11:21 AM
Exactly. What's next? "Ron Paul supporters invade hospital and throw babies out of incubators"?

If we make excuses for them they will not get the point.
I don't care what the outsiders say, I am serious and if I hear any RP supporters disrespecting others I will be up their asses in a heart beat.

mczerone
02-15-2011, 11:23 AM
The hecklers are hurting us. We need to show some class and represent Dr. Paul in the finest way.

Exactly. Booing and Taunting is no way to treat tyrants. Y'all should've been throwing shoes. Nothing less than the best to represent the R3VOLution.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:24 AM
You people really under estimate how much they love their war. The whole society of it. The troops coming home, the wives waiting for their heroes, the American Flag being raised on foreign soil. They love it. They love the glory of war.

The main reason I don't think we should waste our time with them is simple. Its not that I don't believe we have to power to be intelligent and organized. Its because of THE MIDDLE EAST. Obama was talking about Iran today. Ron Paul doesn't want to nuke Iran. Try to convince the run-of-the-mill Neo-Con, Palin or Beck supporter that its a good idea. Really, please try. If it begins to work I'm all in.

chudrockz
02-15-2011, 11:24 AM
The hecklers are hurting us. We need to show some class and represent Dr. Paul in the finest way.

I haven't the time to get through this whole thread as I am just on lunch break, but I have to disagree with this.

Dr. Paul was, and continues to be, ultra polite and gentlemanly. As he was when he ran for President a few years ago. And where did that get him?

In my opinion, it's time for at least SOME of us to start smashing some podiums. I'm SICK of being ignored, and SICK to DEATH of trying to pander to neocons who hate us more than just about anything else on earth.

Andrew-Austin
02-15-2011, 11:24 AM
You can't control what these people think. Red state fascists don't want to like you, they don't want to consider libertarianism, they don't want to debate or hear the arguments, and going by this article they don't want to show any class themselves.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:25 AM
If we make excuses for them they will not get the point.
I don't care what the outsiders say, I am serious and if I hear any RP supporters disrespecting others I will be up their asses in a heart beat.

Do you feel we can change the hearts and minds? How? When most of them vote on blind emotion without rational debate.

AuH20
02-15-2011, 11:25 AM
You won't get them. Muslim Brotherhood, Muslim Brotherhood, Muslim Brotherhood. I'm sorry, but its true. They don't think rationally like you and I do. They didn't get mad about spending until Obama was elected. Doesn't that show you something about them? I (nicely) debate many of them DAILY on Twitter, most of who have "Don't Tread on Me" avatars and quote Jefferson. Whenever we get to foreign policy, the fear sets in. "America, Fuck Yea!" attitude is PART of them. We quote Ghandi and sometimes denounce Israel. Unless they are Anti-Semites, which some are, they don't want to listen.

Believe me, I would be 100% on board if I felt it was working. But I went to every local Tea Party near me. I went to Washington D.C. Its very, very, very frustrating as a young person getting looked at like some dumb kid. That's how they looked at me. Get them all together and it ALWAYS turns into God, U.S.A., Troops, Us vs. them. They like it. It gives them purpose. They think they are REALLY fighting evil.

I've given up on them. I have however, had tons of in roads with random younger people. Obama voters. Independents. Non-political pot smokers. Homosexuals. Anti-War liberals. They also feel they are fighting good vs. evil, but at least our guy is on the GOOD side with them. Ron Paul is an evil, crazy person to neo-cons. Not because we heckle. But because he's a "Muslim lover" that blames 9/11 on the great people of America.

That's reality. At least around here.

However, evil exists outside our borders. Undoubtedly so. I don't think you can just casually ignore that fact or feign ignorance. But the greatest evil lies within our borders and specifically in our capitol and on Wall Street.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 11:29 AM
I haven't the time to get through this whole thread as I am just on lunch break, but I have to disagree with this.

Dr. Paul was, and continues to be, ultra polite and gentlemanly. As he was when he ran for President a few years ago. And where did that get him?

In my opinion, it's time for at least SOME of us to start smashing some podiums. I'm SICK of being ignored, and SICK to DEATH of trying to pander to neocons who hate us more than just about anything else on earth.

So you're saying that even though Ron Paul has asked us over and over to be polite, and certainly non-violent, you've got a better plan and we should follow you instead?

Which parties and/or leaders have come to power using those tactics?

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:29 AM
However, evil exists outside our borders. Undoubtedly so. I don't think you can just casually ignore that fact or feign ignorance. But the greatest evil lies within our borders and specifically in our capitol and on Wall Street.

100% agree. Neo-Cons don't. You can not dare tell one of them that we might be part of the "evil" in the world. They don't want to hear it. Its like the "White Man's Burden".

mczerone
02-15-2011, 11:30 AM
My suggestion would be to those who support Ron Paul & are a member of "RedState", to invite debate, support what Ron Paul supports, just don't mention his name... When another poster says something about Ron Paul, defend only his idea's, and not him. Because they can bash RP all they want to. But they can't debate his conservatism...

The only difference between their kind of conservatism and RP's (for the most part) is foreign policy, defence and military spending.

I have too short of a fuse. So I can't practice what I preach... I admit that.. But there are those who are more patient than I, who could put things to them in a way they could understand... I would just call them stupid and rag on them for voting for McCain..

I've always done this, since I found out about Ron Paul in 2007. It doesn't matter; we're fighting collectivists. They only see you as a member of a group, and only debate you by attacking what they see as the leader of the group or its central tenets. It doesn't matter one bit that you don't believe the things they think that you do, or that you would throw Ron Paul to the curb if he started supporting domestic or foreign intervention.

The best thing you can do to win these people is to make them ashamed of their own group. Ridicule, taunt, tease. Embarrass their leaders with things that have nothing to do with ideology. Most importantly, make sure to tell them that your "team" is going to win.

The revolution has already converted those who respond to talk of liberty, logic, rights, and theory. Step 2 is to convert those who respond to groupthink and short sighted emotionalism. You don't do that sitting quietly and listening to tyrants.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 11:30 AM
Do you feel we can change the hearts and minds? How? When most of them vote on blind emotion without rational debate.

You pander toward their emotions, which might mean leaving part of your philosophy out of your message.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 11:32 AM
The best thing you can do to win these people is to make them ashamed of their own group. Ridicule, taunt, tease. Embarrass their leaders with things that have nothing to do with ideology. Most importantly, make sure to tell them that your "team" is going to win.

The revolution has already converted those who respond to talk of liberty, logic, rights, and theory. Step 2 is to convert those who respond to groupthink and short sighted emotionalism. You don't do that sitting quietly and listening to tyrants.

You don't do it by humiliating and ridiculing them either.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:32 AM
Which parties and/or leaders have come to power using those tactics?

What? Loud disagreement against tyrants? A relentless minority setting brush fires in the minds of the undecided? No idea...

MelissaCato
02-15-2011, 11:33 AM
The only difference between their kind of conservatism and RP's (for the most part) is foreign policy, defence and military spending.

Exactly. Thank you. Now, which one of you is pissed about Rumsfeld and the "war criminal" comment again man in the mirror ? Whateva. I had a great time with some awesome people. Thank YOU RPF. Have a good one.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:33 AM
You pander toward their emotions, which might mean leaving part of your philosophy out of your message.

So now we are pandering. Awesome. So what happens when FOX reports that some guy named Muhammed tired to blow up a car in NYC 20 days before the election? What happens then? After we spent all our campaign time trying to pander to their emotions?

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 11:38 AM
You won't get them. Muslim Brotherhood, Muslim Brotherhood, Muslim Brotherhood. I'm sorry, but its true. They don't think rationally like you and I do. They didn't get mad about spending until Obama was elected. Doesn't that show you something about them? I (nicely) debate many of them DAILY on Twitter, most of who have "Don't Tread on Me" avatars and quote Jefferson. Whenever we get to foreign policy, the fear sets in. "America, Fuck Yea!" attitude is PART of them. We quote Ghandi and sometimes denounce Israel. Unless they are Anti-Semites, which some are, they don't want to listen.

Believe me, I would be 100% on board if I felt it was working. But I went to every local Tea Party near me. I went to Washington D.C. Its very, very, very frustrating as a young person getting looked at like some dumb kid. That's how they looked at me. Get them all together and it ALWAYS turns into God, U.S.A., Troops, Us vs. them. They like it. It gives them purpose. They think they are REALLY fighting evil.

I've given up on them. I have however, had tons of in roads with random younger people. Obama voters. Independents. Non-political pot smokers. Homosexuals. Anti-War liberals. They also feel they are fighting good vs. evil, but at least our guy is on the GOOD side with them. Ron Paul is an evil, crazy person to neo-cons. Not because we heckle. But because he's a "Muslim lover" that blames 9/11 on the great people of America.

That's reality. At least around here.

Don't give up on them. I attend two Tea Parties myself, most of them made up of people older than me - imagine that! It takes time, I haven't broken through yet, either. But if you make your presence known, and befriend a few of them, you'll have a better chance of making headway. For example, I always make it a point to ask for the mic so I can make comments or ask questions. Then after the meeting, I introduce myself and leave literature that I've put together. Right now I'm working on a project that brings the community together to pull resources in the event of a major crisis. You would think something like that would be of interest to the Tea Party, wouldn't you? Well, it's been a challenge. But I'm determined.

I've had the most success in converting people who are G.B. viewers than anyone else. Lately I've been working a lot on the sleeping, not people who already have solidly established views.

sailingaway
02-15-2011, 11:39 AM
You don't do it by humiliating and ridiculing them either.

this^^

Come on, guys, would that sort of thing ever persuade US?

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 11:39 AM
So now we are pandering. Awesome. So what happens when FOX reports that some guy named Muhammed tired to blow up a car in NYC 20 days before the election? What happens then? After we spent all our campaign time trying to pander to their emotions?

If you think about it strategically, it's not pandering, it's infiltration.

MelissaCato
02-15-2011, 11:39 AM
I haven't the time to get through this whole thread as I am just on lunch break, but I have to disagree with this.

Dr. Paul was, and continues to be, ultra polite and gentlemanly. As he was when he ran for President a few years ago. And where did that get him?

In my opinion, it's time for at least SOME of us to start smashing some podiums. I'm SICK of being ignored, and SICK to DEATH of trying to pander to neocons who hate us more than just about anything else on earth.

Gezzzzzz where have you been all my life ? LMAO

lester1/2jr
02-15-2011, 11:39 AM
who cares what these people think? let them go campaign for Donald Trump see how much fun that is.

sailingaway
02-15-2011, 11:40 AM
So now we are pandering. Awesome. So what happens when FOX reports that some guy named Muhammed tired to blow up a car in NYC 20 days before the election? What happens then? After we spent all our campaign time trying to pander to their emotions?

No, we are trying to be persuasive rather than unnecessarily confrontational. These people SHOULD like Ron, but they have to be persuaded to even give him a chance, first.

nurse_emily
02-15-2011, 11:40 AM
For those defending the fools who made an ass of our movement I would like to tell you that I fight as dirty, if not dirtier than most of you all can imagine. I am doing things for the movement that many can not even comprehend.... but I am smart enough to act like a lady in public. Ron Paul would never have to make a public statement because of my actions. That is for sure!

mczerone
02-15-2011, 11:40 AM
You don't do it by humiliating and ridiculing them either.

Really? Have you ever earned the respect of a bully? Have you ever sat down with a Packers fan and gotten them to buy a Mike Vick jersey?

You're not going to ever convince them that your team is better. All you can do is show them that they are being ridiculous, though obvious critique. That means laughing at the bully. That means calling Aaron Brooks a lousy quarterback. That means NOT SHOWING ONE DAMNED OUNCE OF RESPECT FOR RUMMY OR CHENEY WHO HAVE ALWAYS ACTED WITH DISRESPECT TOWARD US MUNDANES.

I like to be cordial, polite, and well-mannered. But to every turn there is a season.

lester1/2jr
02-15-2011, 11:41 AM
can you imagine a Donald Trump meet up?

Anti Federalist
02-15-2011, 11:44 AM
Exactly. But this is America. People are just afraid to act. Its our natural way by now.

That sums it all up.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 11:44 AM
You people really under estimate how much they love their war. The whole society of it. The troops coming home, the wives waiting for their heroes, the American Flag being raised on foreign soil. They love it. They love the glory of war.

The main reason I don't think we should waste our time with them is simple. Its not that I don't believe we have to power to be intelligent and organized. Its because of THE MIDDLE EAST. Obama was talking about Iran today. Ron Paul doesn't want to nuke Iran. Try to convince the run-of-the-mill Neo-Con, Palin or Beck supporter that its a good idea. Really, please try. If it begins to work I'm all in.

Most of them agree that we are in a financial mess. Convince them that our 143+ military bases will cause financial ruin.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:46 AM
Don't give up on them. I attend two Tea Parties myself, most of them made up of people older than me - imagine that! It takes time, I haven't broken through yet, either. But if you make your presence known, and befriend a few of them, you'll have a better chance of making headway. For example, I always make it a point to ask for the mic so I can make comments or ask questions. Then after the meeting, I introduce myself and leave literature that I've put together. Right now I'm working on a project that brings the community together to pull resources in the event of a major crisis. You would think something like that would be of interest to the Tea Party, wouldn't you? Well, it's been a challenge. But I'm determined.

I've had the most success in converting people who are G.B. viewers than anyone else. Lately I've been working a lot on the sleeping, not people who already have solidly established views.

That does work. Beck supporters right now are okay with Paul. I'm just saying, we have a long time before any elections. And the coverage and situation in the Middle East is going to change, and so will their views. Drop of a hat, they will forget everything. It happens on the left and the right. "Group" think.

70% of the time I do what you do. 30% of the time I get emotionally attacked.

My father is a perfect example. He "gets it". He's read everything from Revolution to The Creature from Jekyll. But he still hates Muslims. He still thinks liberals are the enemy. He still reads National Review. He still doesn't understand the idea of "self-determination" when it comes to other nations. America is better then everyone else. Whoever says that will get his vote.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:47 AM
this^^

Come on, guys, would that sort of thing ever persuade US?

We are principled people that READ and rational debate. They don't. They can't. Because they use "group think".

mczerone
02-15-2011, 11:49 AM
this^^

Come on, guys, would that sort of thing ever persuade US?

They are not us. Certainly each individual needs their own stimulus to see the obvious, and some people need logic, reasoning, and talk of the rule of law. Others need emotional coddling to be convinced.

A large contingent of the current political right, however, will only respond to groupthink, to humiliation of their leaders, and ridicule of their unquestioned assumptions. It would be an awful mistake for the R3volution to stagnate by saying "well we converted the first group with method X, so we must always stick to method X." Those of us already here came in ahead of the curve for a reason, and the rest of the people in the world have so far chosen to stay away. why? because Paul is humiliated and his world view are ridiculed. That's what many people respond to. It doesn't matter what the underlying ideas are - they just want to have a vicarious sense of "winning" something.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:49 AM
No, we are trying to be persuasive rather than unnecessarily confrontational. These people SHOULD like Ron, but they have to be persuaded to even give him a chance, first.

He. Doesn't. Want. To. Kill. Muslims.

He. Is. An. Isolationist.

Find me a "Neo-Con" that actually gets Ron Paul and still doesn't like him, and that's not a Neo-Con.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:52 AM
Most of them agree that we are in a financial mess. Convince them that our 143+ military bases will cause financial ruin.

Tell me how. Tell me how to convince a room full of old, ex-marines that we are fighting the wrong fight. I throw the Oath Keepers at them. I throw Ron's campaign money from the military at them. They don't care.

Brian4Liberty
02-15-2011, 11:52 AM
If we make excuses for them they will not get the point.
I don't care what the outsiders say, I am serious and if I hear any RP supporters disrespecting others I will be up their asses in a heart beat.

Not really making excuses. Actually, heckling helps those who make up things about us. All they have to do is exaggerate a little. Ron asked us to be polite. That should be the final word when we are representing Ron Paul.


Exactly. Booing and Taunting is no way to treat tyrants. Y'all should've been throwing shoes. Nothing less than the best to represent the R3VOLution.


In my opinion, it's time for at least SOME of us to start smashing some podiums. I'm SICK of being ignored, and SICK to DEATH of trying to pander to neocons who hate us more than just about anything else on earth.

If you feel the need to heckle, feel free to do it. Just don't do it when you are representing Ron Paul. Don't do it with a Ron Paul T-shirt on. Don't do it with a Ron Paul sign. Don't do it as part of a Ron Paul meeting, or at an event where Ron is speaking. Don't yell "Ron Paul"! The man has asked you not to do that.

If you must heckle, go as an individual to some event where Cheney or Rumsfeld is speaking. Heckle them there. Don't bring up Ron Paul, he doesn't want that.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:55 AM
Did Rand just call them "big government conservatives?" Didn't Ron call them by name? "Neo-Cons".

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 11:55 AM
Really? Have you ever earned the respect of a bully? Have you ever sat down with a Packers fan and gotten them to buy a Mike Vick jersey?

You're not going to ever convince them that your team is better. All you can do is show them that they are being ridiculous, though obvious critique. That means laughing at the bully. That means calling Aaron Brooks a lousy quarterback. That means NOT SHOWING ONE DAMNED OUNCE OF RESPECT FOR RUMMY OR CHENEY WHO HAVE ALWAYS ACTED WITH DISRESPECT TOWARD US MUNDANES.

I like to be cordial, polite, and well-mannered. But to every turn there is a season.

Recycling a previous response:


I see you're new here, and welcome, btw. I don't know how long you've been a supporter, but I've been one for 4 years now. I saw the devastation this kind of behavior caused in the last election. The MSM is part of an entrenched, powerful machine. They already have it geared up to marginalize him again. I've been paying close attention because I intend to put every effort into the grassroots getting him elected if he runs. I'm telling you, we have to think strategically, we have to think long-term when we are about to react to something we don't like. If you are at an event showing support for him and you heckle, shout speakers down, throw snowballs, write vicious posts on his behalf other web sites, threaten media personalities, and all the other stupid shit that was done last time - you will doom his chances.

If we don't learn from our mistakes last time, we can never consider ourselves pertinent in this fight for freedom. I implore those of you who feel the need to react negatively in public to do so independently of your support for Dr. Paul.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 11:56 AM
So now we are pandering. Awesome. So what happens when FOX reports that some guy named Muhammed tired to blow up a car in NYC 20 days before the election? What happens then? After we spent all our campaign time trying to pander to their emotions?

Look, if you don't want to win elections, then don't. But don't you dare walk around crying about it afterward. We're never going to be able to defeat human nature. We're better off appealing to it.

And if you have to resort to freaking slippery slope arguments then you're going to go there by yourself. If we want to appeal to voters, we have to be appealing to voters. It may not be rocket science, but it is political science.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:57 AM
If we peaceful sit around asking them to please understand war is bad. Then we are whimpy liberal and the "hard ass" Neo-Con crowd won't want to join us. Like someone else said, its group think. They want to win something.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 11:58 AM
Look, if you don't want to win elections, then don't. But don't you dare walk around crying about it afterward. We're never going to be able to defeat human nature. We're better off appealing to it.

And if you have to resort to freaking slippery slope arguments then you're going to go there by yourself. If we want to appeal to voters, we have to be appealing to voters. It may not be rocket science, but it is political science.

You just want to appeal to the wrong voters. And does Ron want to in elections? No, he wants to educate. He wants to get the message out. What happens from there happens. And the last 4 years of educating seems to be working.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 11:59 AM
Did Rand just call them "big government conservatives?" Didn't Ron call them by name? "Neo-Cons".

Not all big government conservatives are neocons.

sailingaway
02-15-2011, 11:59 AM
I'd break the link and stop bumping this in google, were it me.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:02 PM
You just want to appeal to the wrong voters. And does Ron want to in elections? No, he wants to educate. He wants to get the message out. What happens from there happens. And the last 4 years of educating seems to be working.

What voters are the wrong voters, specifically?

Ron has won like 14 or 17 elections, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't all by fluke. I think he probably does want to win elections.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:03 PM
If we peaceful sit around asking them to please understand war is bad. Then we are whimpy liberal and the "hard ass" Neo-Con crowd won't want to join us. Like someone else said, its group think. They want to win something.

YOu just said we shouldn't try to win - that we're here to educate or something. So I can see where that works for you.

Brian4Liberty
02-15-2011, 12:04 PM
You just want to appeal to the wrong voters.

What voters should we appeal to? We should try with all voters, but do you have some ideas about particular groups we should be reaching out to?

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 12:04 PM
That does work. Beck supporters right now are okay with Paul. I'm just saying, we have a long time before any elections. And the coverage and situation in the Middle East is going to change, and so will their views. Drop of a hat, they will forget everything. It happens on the left and the right. "Group" think.

70% of the time I do what you do. 30% of the time I get emotionally attacked.

My father is a perfect example. He "gets it". He's read everything from Revolution to The Creature from Jekyll. But he still hates Muslims. He still thinks liberals are the enemy. He still reads National Review. He still doesn't understand the idea of "self-determination" when it comes to other nations. America is better then everyone else. Whoever says that will get his vote.

My Dad is 70. It took me at least 3 years, but that is because I went about it all wrong. I argued with him and got offended when he slighted me because he couldn't refute my points with facts. I guess you could say my family members were my guinea pigs - hahah! Some of them got it, some of them didn't. I have a brother who is the biggest socialist freak I've ever met! Dense as they come! But hey, I still love him. I've learned who to spend my time on, and who not to. Media-led people are the toughest nuts to crack.

TheTyke
02-15-2011, 12:06 PM
Totally disgusting... Ron himself asks people to behave if they care about him, but people DON'T apparently, and think they are smarter than he is. To be honest, it's folks like that that make me want to give up. Look, the media and our enemies will always try to marginalize us. If their claims are completely false or made up (ie. Tyler Collins) they can be made to look ridiculous. But if we actually play into their hands by acting rowdy, they can kill our electoral chances.

Rand never would have been elected if we behaved like that in KY. And we'd have no lion in the Senate defending our freedom.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 12:07 PM
Look, if you don't want to win elections, then don't. But don't you dare walk around crying about it afterward. We're never going to be able to defeat human nature. We're better off appealing to it.

And if you have to resort to freaking slippery slope arguments then you're going to go there by yourself. If we want to appeal to voters, we have to be appealing to voters. It may not be rocket science, but it is political science.

Love this! Ran out of reps for the day! I'll catch you next time!

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 12:08 PM
You just want to appeal to the wrong voters. And does Ron want to in elections? No, he wants to educate. He wants to get the message out. What happens from there happens. And the last 4 years of educating seems to be working.

If he runs again to educate and not win -I'm out.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 12:09 PM
I'd break the link and stop bumping this in google, were it me.

Why? I think we're having a very relevant and rational debate here. What's wrong with the public seeing that?

mczerone
02-15-2011, 12:10 PM
Not really making excuses. Actually, heckling helps those who make up things about us. All they have to do is exaggerate a little. Ron asked us to be polite. That should be the final word when we are representing Ron Paul.

If you feel the need to heckle, feel free to do it. Just don't do it when you are representing Ron Paul. Don't do it with a Ron Paul T-shirt on. Don't do it with a Ron Paul sign. Don't do it as part of a Ron Paul meeting, or at an event where Ron is speaking. Don't yell "Ron Paul"! The man has asked you not to do that.

If you must heckle, go as an individual to some event where Cheney or Rumsfeld is speaking. Heckle them there. Don't bring up Ron Paul, he doesn't want that.

Newsflash: they're going to make things up about us anyway. Our political adversaries already dislike us, think we're a cult, and ridicule the ideas. Let's at least make third party observers see what we stand for by being a little loud, a little raucous, a little disrespectful of those who wish to dominate over us.

I agree that the heckling shouldn't reflect on Ron Paul. But it doesn't matter if we do it with shirts and signs or naked - the adversaries still know that we aren't part of their group, and assume dissenters are liberals or Ron Paul supporters. Should we act like a cult and obey dear leader, or should we speak our mind as individuals and let them call us a cult?

jtstellar
02-15-2011, 12:14 PM
http://www.dailypaul.com/157139/help-ron-paul-find-his-marbles-cpac-story

a view on the question in regards to the "classiness" (or the lack thereof) of ron paul supporters--from a supporter's perspective no less.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:14 PM
I agree that the heckling shouldn't reflect on Ron Paul. But it doesn't matter if we do it with shirts and signs or naked - the adversaries still know that we aren't part of their group, and assume dissenters are liberals or Ron Paul supporters. Should we act like a cult and obey dear leader, or should we speak our mind as individuals and let them call us a cult?

So, you think we should only take Paul's advice when it suits us.

There's a big difference between speaking one's mind, and being rude. If we want people to respect us, we have to earn it. Merely existing isn't doing it.

nurse_emily
02-15-2011, 12:15 PM
I'd break the link and stop bumping this in google, were it me.

You got to remove the link. It is going to end up putting it on the first page of google for Ron paul and Cpac.

anytime you link to a site then talk about it non stop, it goes to the top of google.

MelissaCato
02-15-2011, 12:17 PM
What voters should we appeal to? We should try with all voters, but do you have some ideas about particular groups we should be reaching out to?

Ya, everyone in our home towns. It's that simple. Ron Paul 2012 !!

dannno
02-15-2011, 12:17 PM
The hecklers are hurting us. We need to show some class and represent Dr. Paul in the finest way.

They only hurt us if you take what these douchebags say with any sort of seriousness.

The hecklers actually got Ron Paul a lot of good publicity.. including the Trump hecklers.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 12:18 PM
Tell me how. Tell me how to convince a room full of old, ex-marines that we are fighting the wrong fight. I throw the Oath Keepers at them. I throw Ron's campaign money from the military at them. They don't care.

That is not a venue that would be easily won over. Start by befriending one or two of them. Try as best you can to find some common ground on a one to one conversation. Then, when the time is right, use Ron's arguments as if they are your own. Study everything he's ever said about foreign policy, military industrialism, undeclared wars, and so on. You might want to throw some Michael Scheuer in there as well. Imperial Hubris is a great book.

mczerone
02-15-2011, 12:21 PM
Recycling a previous response:


I see you're new here, and welcome, btw. I don't know how long you've been a supporter, but I've been one for 4 years now. I saw the devastation this kind of behavior caused in the last election. The MSM is part of an entrenched, powerful machine. They already have it geared up to marginalize him again. I've been paying close attention because I intend to put every effort into the grassroots getting him elected if he runs. I'm telling you, we have to think strategically, we have to think long-term when we are about to react to something we don't like. If you are at an event showing support for him and you heckle, shout speakers down, throw snowballs, write vicious posts on his behalf other web sites, threaten media personalities, and all the other stupid shit that was done last time - you will doom his chances.

If we don't learn from our mistakes last time, we can never consider ourselves pertinent in this fight for freedom. I implore those of you who feel the need to react negatively in public to do so independently of your support for Dr. Paul.

First, I'll assume you know that I'm only 7 months behind you on here and that the intro wasn't meant to also apply to me.

Second - what had more lasting impact from 2007: throwing snowballs at Hannity or sitting quietly during the debates? What was more effective AGAINST Ron Paul: Booing during debates, ridiculing him during national TV interviews, or sitting quietly and allowing him to speak to the nation? We are not dealing with nice, cordial people. Those who haven't already signed up for the Ron Paul message aren't all going to respond to politeness.

And finally, what the hell is a "negative reaction"? As long as no one turns to violence, I don't see anything that is objectively negative.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:22 PM
http://www.dailypaul.com/157139/help-ron-paul-find-his-marbles-cpac-story

a view on the question in regards to the "classiness" (or the lack thereof) of ron paul supporters--from an insider's perspective no less.

Here's another one, in relation to people who couldn't contain themselves when Jack Hunter, Tom Woods, Ron Paul and ....Daniel McCarthy IIRC? were having their session:


Ultimately, if you actually ever want to win, and not just make a point, you’ve got to quit turning off others who might agree with you on much, but who just think you’re dangerous radicals based on your behavior. Tonight (and yes, I realize it was the C4L sponsored event), there were at least a few people who stepped beyond polite behavior. One young man—when anyone’s name was mentioned that he didn’t like, would yell “_________ sucks.” Maybe ______________does “suck”, but these explosive outbursts are the very thing that the media wants to jump on as indicative of a whole movement, and they color those of us who want very much to make a difference with a brush than engenders distrust by others.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 12:26 PM
First, I'll assume you know that I'm only 7 months behind you on here and that the intro wasn't meant to also apply to me.

Second - what had more lasting impact from 2007: throwing snowballs at Hannity or sitting quietly during the debates? What was more effective AGAINST Ron Paul: Booing during debates, ridiculing him during national TV interviews, or sitting quietly and allowing him to speak to the nation? We are not dealing with nice, cordial people. Those who haven't already signed up for the Ron Paul message aren't all going to respond to politeness.

And finally, what the hell is a "negative reaction"? As long as no one turns to violence, I don't see anything that is objectively negative.

I meant to cut out that first part, it was for the poster I orginally responded to. Negative responses refer to heckling, shouting down the speaker, and all the rest that I referred to. The bottom line here is that this blew up in our faces last time, and Dr. Paul has asked us IN WRITING not to do it. What else do you need?

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:27 PM
What? Loud disagreement against tyrants? A relentless minority setting brush fires in the minds of the undecided? No idea...

The problem is that you're not setting off any brush fires when you act like a boor. If the first encounter with a Ron Paul supporter involves that reporter screaming insults at an otherwise forgettable event, I can pretty much assure you that the encounter is not going to win us any fans.

Like it or not, Ron Paul agrees with me on this.

sailingaway
02-15-2011, 12:28 PM
Please remove the link.

It occurred to me they aren't wrong entirely about Ron being the Pied Piper, but remember that Hanlin lost the youth of the village for not dealing fairly with him. And the youth are following Ron, now.

Anti Federalist
02-15-2011, 12:29 PM
Goddamn kids, simmer down, shut up and act civil, like the rest of us!!

http://images2.dailykos.com/images/user/3/McCain_supporters.jpg

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:29 PM
Tell me how. Tell me how to convince a room full of old, ex-marines that we are fighting the wrong fight. I throw the Oath Keepers at them. I throw Ron's campaign money from the military at them. They don't care.

Maybe you should stop throwing things.

mczerone
02-15-2011, 12:30 PM
So, you think we should only take Paul's advice when it suits us.

There's a big difference between speaking one's mind, and being rude. If we want people to respect us, we have to earn it. Merely existing isn't doing it.

Someone earlier mentioned "human nature". The sad fact is that in the political realm rudeness earns respect of a wide range of people. Especially if you're being rude to "the bad guys".

I wholeheartedly agree that we should only follow Paul's advice when it suits us. We are not employees of an official campaign. Paul's advice should weigh on decisions that you make regarding the campaign, but if you think he is wrong, say so.

Earning respect, in the political arena, means making yourself powerful. You don't do that with meek politeness. You do it with Calculated political attacks. Meaning ridicule and heckling, when the TV cameras will reflect that you aren't sitting quietly in the presence of a man who deserves much, much more than being called a war criminal.

TrentEmberson
02-15-2011, 12:31 PM
I understand the civility argument, but I'm still not convinced that heckling Cheney (or Geithner, Bernanke, Rubin, Summers, Obama etc.) is a net negative for gaining more support for our cause. Since when are boisterous 20-somethings at an open forum bad for a political movement, especially in the setting of a failing economy? Remember when the Chinese university students erupted in laughter when Geithner mentioned the strong dollar policy? That was impolite, but were they wrong to do it? We should encourage that, it endears us to people who would do the same thing.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:31 PM
They only hurt us if you take what these douchebags say with any sort of seriousness.



I'm floored. That statement can't possibly have come from anybody who is actually involved in any kind of coalition building.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:33 PM
I understand the civility argument, but I'm still not convinced that heckling Cheney (or Geithner, Bernanke, Rubin, Summers, Obama etc.) is a net negative for gaining more support for our cause. Since when are boisterous 20-somethings at an open forum bad for a political movement, especially in the setting of a failing economy? Remember when the Chinese university students erupted in laughter when Geithner mentioned the strong dollar policy? That was impolite, but were they wrong to do it? We should encourage that, it endears us to people who would do the same thing.

Yes, they were wrong to do it. It really is that simple.

Unless we don't have the same cause. I'm trying to get liberty candidates into office. How about you?

sailingaway
02-15-2011, 12:33 PM
I understand the civility argument, but I'm still not convinced that heckling Cheney (or Geithner, Bernanke, Rubin, Summers, Obama etc.) is a net negative for gaining more support for our cause. Since when are boisterous 20-somethings at an open forum bad for a political movement, especially in the setting of a failing economy? Remember when the Chinese university students erupted in laughter when Geithner mentioned the strong dollar policy? That was impolite, but were they wrong to do it? We should encourage that, it endears us to people who would do the same thing.

That didn't reflect on a particular candidate. It is the fact that at an event where we are making a big show of representing Ron, what we do reflects on him. And this is a reflection he asked us NOT to create.

It also reflects on others in the same visible support group who are adamantly against heckling. I know people who like the sound of Ron but who won't discuss him because they don't want to look as if they were one of us.

What we do on our own time is one thing. I for one think it is unfair to do something as a visible group of his supporters that reflects on him in a way he specifically asked us not to do. Disassociate yourself for that purpose. It is an image thing, and I do think he should be able to set the parameters for his own image.

mczerone
02-15-2011, 12:35 PM
Goddamn kids, simmer down, shut up and act civil, like the rest of us!!

http://images2.dailykos.com/images/user/3/McCain_supporters.jpg

Those nice, polite people certainly look ready and willing to win a damned revolution. Though it is a rude negative reaction to sleep through a presentation or to leave your walker in the nave. They should stop doing those negative things if they want to earn respect!

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 12:36 PM
Someone earlier mentioned "human nature". The sad fact is that in the political realm rudeness earns respect of a wide range of people. Especially if you're being rude to "the bad guys".

I wholeheartedly agree that we should only follow Paul's advice when it suits us. We are not employees of an official campaign. Paul's advice should weigh on decisions that you make regarding the campaign, but if you think he is wrong, say so.

Earning respect, in the political arena, means making yourself powerful. You don't do that with meek politeness. You do it with Calculated political attacks. Meaning ridicule and heckling, when the TV cameras will reflect that you aren't sitting quietly in the presence of a man who deserves much, much more than being called a war criminal.

Your idea of smart tactics didn't help last time. What makes you think it will help this time?

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:36 PM
Someone earlier mentioned "human nature". The sad fact is that in the political realm rudeness earns respect of a wide range of people. Especially if you're being rude to "the bad guys".

I wholeheartedly agree that we should only follow Paul's advice when it suits us. We are not employees of an official campaign. Paul's advice should weigh on decisions that you make regarding the campaign, but if you think he is wrong, say so.

Earning respect, in the political arena, means making yourself powerful. You don't do that with meek politeness. You do it with Calculated political attacks. Meaning ridicule and heckling, when the TV cameras will reflect that you aren't sitting quietly in the presence of a man who deserves much, much more than being called a war criminal.

We don't win political allies by heckling speakers. We become a sideshow.

jtstellar
02-15-2011, 12:37 PM
from a macro perspective perhaps this is one of those things.. good cop bad cop perhaps? you need a loud voice but that when it actually counts, you also have to be able to appeal, be diplomatic, and build bridges

the difficult thing is to figure out when to do what

i think the very fact that a topic like this is being discussed may signal the turning point at which rp already has enough name recognition, and that we need to steer more effort away from the intimidating "bad cop" behavior into the "good cop" appeal and persuasiveness.

this is sort of like free market economics when one sector becomes overcrowded with resources that could be more efficient if allocated elsewhere that people begin to themselves negotiate to make the changes.. sort of like spontaneous order. kind of an interesting topic to see brought up and certainly a very important one.. whether this movement makes the switch from "obtain recognition" to "garner support" successfully may be the deciding factor of this election.

CableNewsJunkie
02-15-2011, 12:37 PM
Goddamn kids, simmer down, shut up and act civil, like the rest of us!!

http://images2.dailykos.com/images/user/3/McCain_supporters.jpg

LOL, now that you put it THAT way :)

Somehow I think that the result of this thread will be the formation of a covert dirty tricks division (DTD) within the movement...not that I endorse that or anything...(ahem)

mczerone
02-15-2011, 12:39 PM
I'm floored. That statement can't possibly have come from anybody who is actually involved in any kind of coalition building.

Coalition of what? We don't want to work with people who are in the war camp. We want to show them how stupid their views are so that they jump ship and run with us. I'm not interested in cutting a deal with AIPAC or the Federal teacher's union. No. The goal shouldn't be playing nice with those groups, it should be to give refuge to those who we convince that the old way is failed. The R3volution cannot win an election or change anything about political reality by pretending that the prime movers of these groups aren't douchebags.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:39 PM
Those nice, polite people certainly look ready and willing to win a damned revolution. Though it is a rude negative reaction to sleep through a presentation or to leave your walker in the nave. They should stop doing those negative things if they want to earn respect!

Remind me again who won the primary?

sailingaway
02-15-2011, 12:43 PM
Coalition of what? We don't want to work with people who are in the war camp. We want to show them how stupid their views are so that they jump ship and run with us. I'm not interested in cutting a deal with AIPAC or the Federal teacher's union. No. The goal shouldn't be playing nice with those groups, it should be to give refuge to those who we convince that the old way is failed. The R3volution cannot win an election or change anything about political reality by pretending that the prime movers of these groups aren't douchebags.

A ton of people you probably think of as being 'in the war camp' are really in the 'I never thought about foreign policy and really couldn't care less camp'. And those won't listen to you if you are rude, because they figure rude people are always wrong. Cheney milked being a sympathetic figure for all it was worth when he was heckled, and Rumsfield used it to argue that military spending should in no event be cut, undermining Rand's immediately prior message.

In fact, it worked so well for them with the crowd, I wonder if they didn't set up that presentation for immediately after Rand's speech, on purpose. In which case I think we should quit being so easy to manipulate into the kind of behavior Cheney benefits from.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:44 PM
Coalition of what? We don't want to work with people who are in the war camp. We want to show them how stupid their views are so that they jump ship and run with us. I'm not interested in cutting a deal with AIPAC or the Federal teacher's union. No. The goal shouldn't be playing nice with those groups, it should be to give refuge to those who we convince that the old way is failed. The R3volution cannot win an election or change anything about political reality by pretending that the prime movers of these groups aren't douchebags.

So we do have a different agenda. Mine doesn't involve calling people who disagree with me "stupid" and "douchebags."

If I may borrow a phrase, "through our enemy's eyes," - how many times have you changed your mind about anything when you were introduced to the topic by a person who shouted at you and told you you were a stupid douchebag?

mczerone
02-15-2011, 12:45 PM
We don't win political allies by heckling speakers. We become a sideshow.

Prove it. I think otherwise, and would like to know if I'm wrong.

In fact I think we won political allies amongst those who are anti-Rummy. And as I argued before, the heckling is the only chance we have at winning allies from those who do or used to support the war criminals. We already f-ing are a sideshow. So how do we move to the main stage? Give the people something that they want to see.

Anti Federalist
02-15-2011, 12:46 PM
Remind me again who won the primary?

I'm not trying to kill the thread here, but...

I was there in 2008 when the recount was going on.

I stood "guard" all night in the snow, outside the building, because the ballots were not locked up by the Sec of State.

I saw next to zero McCain signs and support in NH through 2007.

I saw with my own eyes, boxes of ballots with their "tamper seals" missing or peeled off.

I call shenanigans on the whole thing.

/conspiracy rant over.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:47 PM
Prove it. I think otherwise, and would like to know if I'm wrong.



What kind of proof would you accept? Human nature apparently isn't a factor you're willing to consider.

TrentEmberson
02-15-2011, 12:52 PM
Yes, they were wrong to do it. It really is that simple.

It was a natural reaction! I'd have considered the audience suspect if they didn't laugh at such a ridiculous statement, in exactly the same way that anyone watching Rumsfeld get a prize for defending the constitution would laugh at such a spectacle. Certainly our kids pissed off some Rumsfeld and Cheney supporters, just like the Chinese kids pissed off some Geithner worshipers (if there is such a thing.) But in both situations, the good team won respect and endearment from people who see the situation for what it is - a farce.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:52 PM
I'm not trying to kill the thread here, but...

I was there in 2008 when the recount was going on.

I stood "guard" all night in the snow, outside the building, because the ballots were not locked up by the Sec of State.

I saw next to zero McCain signs and support in NH through 2007.

I saw with my own eyes, boxes of ballots with their "tamper seals" missing or peeled off.

I call shenanigans on the whole thing.

/conspiracy rant over.

Of course. That's gotta be it. Screaming at people, calling them names, showing them absolutely zero respect - that's not it. People love that.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:54 PM
It was a natural reaction! I'd have considered the audience suspect if they didn't laugh at such a ridiculous statement, in exactly the same way that anyone watching Rumsfeld get a prize for defending the constitution would laugh at such a spectacle. Certainly our kids pissed off some Rumsfeld and Cheney supporters, just like the Chinese kids pissed off some Geithner worshipers (if there is such a thing.) But in both situations, the good team won respect and endearment from people who see the situation for what it is - a farce.

We didn't win any respect from anybody. That's the problem.

"Natural reaction" = We're a bunch of impulsive loons who can't even control ourselves. much less win an election, much less run a country.

mczerone
02-15-2011, 12:54 PM
So we do have a different agenda. Mine doesn't involve calling people who disagree with me "stupid" and "douchebags."

If I may borrow a phrase, "through our enemy's eyes," - how many times have you changed your mind about anything when you were introduced to the topic by a person who shouted at you and told you you were a stupid douchebag?

I didn't call anyone that I hope to win over "stupid" or anything else. I said that the prime-movers of the groups opposed to us are douchebags. I'm not trying to win them - they are a lost cause. I'm trying to win their followers, who don't care about things the same way you or I do.

I'd suggest, instead of focusing on "enemies" you focus on "audience". The voting public is not an enemy to us, but the people they currently follow are. I'm asserting that by being rude, raucous, and rowdy is a valid means to relate our message to this audience. You're responding that the people that are already our enemies might dislike us more. That doesn't matter if we wish to win elections or alter the political landscape.

For each time Ron Paul was called Kooky, McCain should be called a war-monger. For each time Ron Paul was called an isolationist, Romney should be called a socialist. For each time Ron Paul was called anachronistic, Palin should be called an air-head. Look, rudeness is being used against us EFFECTIVELY. Why would we shy away from using something that works, when it does not violate anyone's rights?

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 12:55 PM
Prove it. I think otherwise, and would like to know if I'm wrong.

In fact I think we won political allies amongst those who are anti-Rummy. And as I argued before, the heckling is the only chance we have at winning allies from those who do or used to support the war criminals. We already f-ing are a sideshow. So how do we move to the main stage? Give the people something that they want to see.

You seem to be a single issue voter. Your tunnel vision tactics blew up in our faces last election.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 12:59 PM
I didn't call anyone that I hope to win over "stupid" or anything else. I said that the prime-movers of the groups opposed to us are douchebags. I'm not trying to win them - they are a lost cause. I'm trying to win their followers, who don't care about things the same way you or I do.

I'd suggest, instead of focusing on "enemies" you focus on "audience". The voting public is not an enemy to us, but the people they currently follow are. I'm asserting that by being rude, raucous, and rowdy is a valid means to relate our message to this audience. You're responding that the people that are already our enemies might dislike us more. That doesn't matter if we wish to win elections or alter the political landscape.

For each time Ron Paul was called Kooky, McCain should be called a war-monger. For each time Ron Paul was called an isolationist, Romney should be called a socialist. For each time Ron Paul was called anachronistic, Palin should be called an air-head. Look, rudeness is being used against us EFFECTIVELY. Why would we shy away from using something that works, when it does not violate anyone's rights?

Where's the proof that it works?

chudrockz
02-15-2011, 12:59 PM
So you're saying that even though Ron Paul has asked us over and over to be polite, and certainly non-violent, you've got a better plan and we should follow you instead?

Which parties and/or leaders have come to power using those tactics?

I'm certainly NOT asking anyone to follow me. But if some want to get a bit rowdy, who am I to tell them how they should act? For that matter, who is Ron Paul to do that?

angelatc
02-15-2011, 01:02 PM
You seem to be a single issue voter. Your tunnel vision tactics blew up in our faces last election.

Do you think maybe that's the problem? It's a different conversation, but that single issue was the issue that bound us all together.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 01:02 PM
I'm certainly NOT asking anyone to follow me. But if some want to get a bit rowdy, who am I to tell them how they should act? For that matter, who is Ron Paul to do that?

Who is Ron Paul? Really?

He has said that this behavior hurts him politically. But you don't care about that - it's all about what you want to do. Real nice.

mczerone
02-15-2011, 01:02 PM
What kind of proof would you accept? Human nature apparently isn't a factor you're willing to consider.

Human nature is what I'm all about. Niceties and quiet acceptance has already gotten us to where we are. To grow support, we need to see that many, many people respond to seeing that our side has enough balls to call out War Criminals to their faces. Human nature leads people to respond to collectivism and a sense of vicarious success. There is a benefit to being rude because human nature is what I'm considering.

mczerone
02-15-2011, 01:03 PM
Where's the proof that it works?

Is Ron Paul President?

mczerone
02-15-2011, 01:05 PM
You seem to be a single issue voter. Your tunnel vision tactics blew up in our faces last election.

Who says I'm even a damned voter? What tactics blew up in our faces? Would Paul have magically won had people not thrown snowballs at Hannity?

Tunnel vision? You're the one who said that you were "out" if Paul ran another "educational campaign".

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 01:06 PM
Do you think maybe that's the problem? It's a different conversation, but that single issue was the issue that bound us all together.

It isn't what attracted me to him. So, I doubt that.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 01:07 PM
Who says I'm even a damned voter? What tactics blew up in our faces? Would Paul have magically won had people not thrown snowballs at Hannity?

Tunnel vision? You're the one who said that you were "out" if Paul ran another "educational campaign".

What's tunnel vision about not wanting to waste my time raising funds, beating feet, organizing events, etc. if he's not running to win. Been there, done that already.

Brian4Liberty
02-15-2011, 01:08 PM
I'm certainly NOT asking anyone to follow me. But if some want to get a bit rowdy, who am I to tell them how they should act? For that matter, who is Ron Paul to do that?

Ron Paul is the reason why these people went to CPAC in the first place. Supposedly they went to represent Ron Paul. People received discounted tickets through YAL and CFL. People received chip-in money from people right here who did not approve of heckling. That all gives Ron the right to recommend certain behavior when people are there to represent him.

Feel free to go to a Cheney speech and heckle on your own initiative, representing yourself. Put your money where your mouth is.

MelissaCato
02-15-2011, 01:09 PM
Can't we all just get alone. Ron Paul 2012 !!!

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 01:14 PM
Human nature is what I'm all about. Niceties and quiet acceptance has already gotten us to where we are. To grow support, we need to see that many, many people respond to seeing that our side has enough balls to call out War Criminals to their faces. Human nature leads people to respond to collectivism and a sense of vicarious success. There is a benefit to being rude because human nature is what I'm considering.

Who here advocates "quiet acceptance" ? Be as loud and boisterous and rude as you want at whatever event or venue you want. Just don't represent Ron Paul when you do it. He has specifically asked you not to. If you do so anyway, as you have already stated you would, then you're either detrimentally stubborn, or you aren't in this to win, and then I question your motives.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 01:15 PM
Can't we all just get alone. Ron Paul 2012 !!!

Who do you want to get alone with? :collins: :D

jtstellar
02-15-2011, 01:17 PM
I'm certainly NOT asking anyone to follow me. But if some want to get a bit rowdy, who am I to tell them how they should act? For that matter, who is Ron Paul to do that?

rowdiness had its place in the past when ron paul was near zero name recognition.. since according to a recent poll having paul with his name recognition in the high 70s, it's now a thing in the past. what the movement needs right now are people who can make others feel like they want to be a part of the group. there are plenty of people who readily choose "whether i like you" over "ideas"

again it's already past the point of needing chants to garner attention.. we already have it.. rp's name recognition is again in the high 70s.. what's needed now is appeal

Imperial
02-15-2011, 01:25 PM
The hecklers are hurting us. We need to show some class and represent Dr. Paul in the finest way.

I saw the devastation this kind of behavior caused in the last election. The MSM is part of an entrenched, powerful machine. They already have it geared up to marginalize him again. I've been paying close attention because I intend to put every effort into the grassroots getting him elected if he runs. I'm telling you, we have to think strategically, we have to think long-term when we are about to react to something we don't like. If you are at an event showing support for him and you heckle, shout speakers down, throw snowballs, write vicious posts on his behalf other web sites, threaten media personalities, and all the other stupid shit that was done last time - you will doom his chances.

If we don't learn from our mistakes last time, we can never consider ourselves pertinent in this fight for freedom. I implore those of you who feel the need to react negatively in public to do so independently of your support for Dr. Paul.

I agree with this completely. You can disagree with somebody without being distasteful about it. For example, instead of booing and shouting things that make us look bad (shekels... seriously?), you could have all sat there and just watched. The lack of applause would have created some awkwardness in the room, especially when other speakers regularly receive standing ovations.

Some say Rumsfeld, Cheney and others deserve it. After all, their policies in Iraq and elsewhere sucked. To that I say who made you God? None of us are omniscient, and when I disagree with someone's politics, fine, I will maintain my opinion. But no matter how crappy of a policy it is, I will not act like opinion is necessarily perfect because I believe it. And I won't hold it personally against other people when they have a concept of a perfect policy contrary to my own.

Furthermore, if Rummy, Cheney et al were 'war criminals' and 'murdering scum', I ask this: Why do you want to sink to the level of your opposition? Going personal only gives the neo-cons an appeal to sympathy from the population. Better to point out the idiocy of their positions.

Ron Paul is right- this is a battle of ideas. It is time to get serious about the movement instead of satisfying our own personal concept of righteousness with cheap heckles and boos.

TrentEmberson
02-15-2011, 01:29 PM
Who here advocates "quiet acceptance" ? Be as loud and boisterous and rude as you want at whatever event or venue you want. Just don't represent Ron Paul when you do it. He has specifically asked you not to. If you do so anyway, as you have already stated you would, then you're either detrimentally stubborn, or you aren't in this to win, and then I question your motives.

He didn't ask the college kids in Michigan to burn dollar bills or chant "End the Fed" at his speeches, either, in fact he specifically tells people they can get in trouble for setting US currency alight. But you don't hear him admonishing the college kids who go to his speeches and whoop it up. To the contrary, the "attitude of the young people" is his principal source of hope for the future.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 01:30 PM
He didn't ask the college kids in Michigan to burn dollar bills or chant "End the Fed" at his speeches, either, in fact he specifically tells people they can get in trouble for setting US currency alight. But you don't hear him admonishing the college kids who go to his speeches and whoop it up. To the contrary, the "attitude of the young people" is his principal source of hope for the future.

Apples and oranges - and if you don't see the difference, I can't help you.

silentshout
02-15-2011, 02:26 PM
Those type of people will never respect libertarians, independents who aren't Palin-type tea-partiers, liberals, progressives, moderates, maybe even some paleocons even...pretty much anyone who doesn't fall in lockstep with the way they think.

CableNewsJunkie
02-15-2011, 03:13 PM
We'll have to get Ridley Scott to direct the r3VOLution movie one day...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfN_DEBrUVI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsqJFIJ5lLs

Mordan
02-15-2011, 03:16 PM
reply with class and humor

turn them to ridicule.

only way to earn credit in those situations. Going head to head is pointless.

Use the Haikido philosophy

William R
02-15-2011, 03:18 PM
He didn't ask the college kids in Michigan to burn dollar bills or chant "End the Fed" at his speeches, either, in fact he specifically tells people they can get in trouble for setting US currency alight. But you don't hear him admonishing the college kids who go to his speeches and whoop it up. To the contrary, the "attitude of the young people" is his principal source of hope for the future.

When Ron is speaking whoop it up all you want. But be polite when others are speaking. If a bunch of Cheney fans kept interrupting Ron Paul while he was speaking I assume you wouldn't be too happy about it.

Tonewah
02-15-2011, 03:18 PM
Red State wasn't our friend in 08, and probably won't be in 2012. Honestly, I'm surprised it still exists.

ctiger2
02-15-2011, 04:01 PM
IMHO I think Paul supporters are so "outspoken and/or obnoxious" to some because of they way the media has treated RP over the years. All Paul supporters have a huge chip on their shoulder and they're protecting their guy.

Humanae Libertas
02-15-2011, 04:09 PM
The name Red State suits them well [i.e. Communist rats].

puppetmaster
02-15-2011, 04:11 PM
This is all fine if you're, as you say, acting independently. But when they make it known that they are RP supporters, it changes from independent opinion to one that is representative of Ron Paul. It is necessary, as a RP supporter to, at all times, think strategically. We are up against an entrenched, powerful machine. It behooves us to use common sense tactics.


we will never win these peoples support....sorry. They are scum and would only hurt our position. It will be the young that make us strong....period

AuH20
02-15-2011, 04:13 PM
we will never win these peoples support....sorry. They are scum and would only hurt our position. It will be the young that make us strong....period

Baby boomers are largely lost. They are mired in fantasy land. I think our only hope is the generation being born today in the recessionary period. In many ways, the teens today are even more detached from reality than the baby boomers.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 04:16 PM
we will never win these peoples support....sorry. They are scum and would only hurt our position. It will be the young that make us strong....period

The issue is how we behave when we are representing Ron Paul. He has asked us to be civil in these venues. Strength is only part of it.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 04:17 PM
Baby boomers are largely lost. They are mired in fantasy land. I think our only hope is the generation being born today in the recessionary period. In many ways, the teens today are even more detached from reality than the baby boomers.

Way to collectivize an entire group of people. :rolleyes:

AuH20
02-15-2011, 04:18 PM
Way to collectivize an entire group of people. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry. Baby boomers let it get to this point. The greatest expansion of government happened during their tenure.

JK/SEA
02-15-2011, 04:20 PM
I'm sorry. Baby boomers let it get to this point. The greatest expansion of government happened during their tenure.

examples of how/why/when...in detail.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 04:20 PM
I'm sorry. Baby boomers let it get to this point. The greatest expansion of government happened during their tenure.

Baby boomers were still babies when SS was enacted. Blame the progressive movement, many of which are in their 20s, 30s and 40s right now. Not all boomers are progressives.

Anti Federalist
02-15-2011, 04:28 PM
I'm sorry. Baby boomers let it get to this point. The greatest expansion of government happened during their tenure.

They are certainly behind the "safety Nazi" culture that we're living in.

But as for SS and income tax and "making the world safe for democracy" hell, most of the people responsible for that are long dead.

AuH20
02-15-2011, 04:45 PM
Baby boomers were still babies when SS was enacted. Blame the progressive movement, many of which are in their 20s, 30s and 40s right now. Not all boomers are progressives.

War. Extreme Hedonism. Debt. That's the lasting legacy of the baby boomers. While the U.S. was certainly not a bastion of freedom pre-1945, it plummeted into the depths post-war. The childlike adults turned from the natural order, scoffing at the wisdom of the past. This phenomenon has transpired in other civilizations, when the successors of prior industrious generations forget the harsh lessons of life on this planet and truly believe themselves to be "superhuman." The baby boomers have imbued our culture with the myth that perception IS reality. Maintaining the great lie is more important than life itself. Everywhere you look. It's the same theme. Corporate value is based on market "perception" as opposed to innate worth representative of an accurate balance sheet. Celebritydom has more to do with style over substance.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 04:55 PM
Twitter convo with a Neo-Con:

I'm @TruthSeeker10. I tried to be nice, I really did.

djm231: conservatives not libertarians rt @TruthSeeker10 From your avatar you seem to be a Tea Party member. You do know who started those right?

TruthSeeker10: @djm231 Ron Paul supporters in 2007.

@djm231:@TruthSeeker10 the movement truly began april 15, 2009 - conservative Americans with no "name" leading - truly a grassroots movement

TruthSeeker10: @djm231 Ron Paul supporters, then grassroots, then Palin and the Gop co-opt.

djm231: @TruthSeeker10 it's a shame the Paul people can't recognize a genuine people's patriot movement but want to steal some credit....arghhh

TruthSeeker10:@djm231 and give us supporters of Dr. Paul an honest, principled reason why he's not a true Conservative, its hard for us not be loud.

TruthSeeker10:@djm231 when people start calling out Fox and the GOP for keeping Ron Paul fringe with baseless insults and untruthful coverage

@djm231: @TruthSeeker10 coddling our enemies, ignoring our allies, demonstrating military weakness, unsecured borders = Paul's obama-like policies

TruthSeeker10: @djm231 Conquest is not in our principles. It is inconsistent with our government. Thomas Jefferson

TruthSeeker10: @djm231 Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto. Thomas Jefferson

TruthSeeker10 @djm231 Ron Paul gets the most support from our brave troops. (Inserted '08 quarterly results)

djm231: @TruthSeeker10 self protection is essential - Jefferson didn't live in a world where the enemy could destroy you in a matter of seconds

djm231: @TruthSeeker10 so you are calling our "brave troops" mercenaries? Typical of the followers of Ron. You must hate the memory of Goldwater.

djm231: @TruthSeeker10 I hear you tap tapping on the streets of Munich - if we listen to the likes of you we better learn arabic

TruthSeeker10: @djm231 why do you quote brave troops? I support the troops. I don't support the unlawful battles they are forced to fight.

TruthSeeker10: @djm231 they sign up to defend a nation, and military contractors make money as they die occupying a country.

TruthSeeker10: @djm231 I just feel bad for you now. We have the power to crush anyone that harms up. You act like your fighting the good fight.

TruthSeeker10: @djm231 when you call for the killing of a billion people because of a book they read. Didn't answer my question. What you say to Egypt?

Now, I know I could have handled it better at the end. And its not over. But, when they start calling Ron un-American, I kind of want to flip out.

But, how? HOW can we convert THESE people? These are the people at CPAC. These are real Neo-Cons.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 05:00 PM
TruthSeeker10: @djm231 when you call for the killing of a billion people because of a book they read. Didn't answer my question. What you say to Egypt?[/B]

Now, I know I could have handled it better at the end. And its not over. But, when they start calling Ron un-American, I kind of want to flip out.

But, how? HOW can we convert THESE people? These are the people at CPAC. These are real Neo-Cons.

It's good, in my flea bitten opinion. Just try really hard not to make blanket accusations.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 05:04 PM
War. Extreme Hedonism. Debt. That's the lasting legacy of the baby boomers. While the U.S. was certainly not a bastion of freedom pre-1945, it plummeted into the depths post-war. The childlike adults turned from the natural order, scoffing at the wisdom of the past. This phenomenon has transpired in other civilizations, when the successors of prior industrious generations forget the harsh lessons of life on this planet and truly believe themselves to be "superhuman." The baby boomers have imbued our culture with the myth that perception IS reality. Maintaining the great lie is more important than life itself. Everywhere you look. It's the same theme. Corporate value is based on market "perception" as opposed to innate worth representative of an accurate balance sheet. Celebritydom has more to do with style over substance.

Again, I state emphatically - not all boomers are progressives. You are barking up the wrong tree. The debt, for example. lol. Are you blaming the boomers for the Fed? For detaching from the gold standard? For the depression? Because that's when it all started. 1913 - the Federal Reserve Act and the 16th amendment.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 05:04 PM
It's good, in my flea bitten opinion. Just try really hard not to make blanket accusations.

He's the only one that is irrational so far. So I'm giving him irrational back. How stupid do you have to be to say "Conservatives aren't Libertarians"? Really? Of course I responded with the Reagan quote.

Honest question. Which major GOP candidates other then Ron have military experience?

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 05:05 PM
He's the only one that is irrational so far. So I'm giving him irrational back. How stupid do you have to be to say "Conservatives aren't Libertarians"? Really? Of course I responded with the Reagan quote.

Honest question. Which major GOP candidates other then Ron have military experience?

None so far that I know of.

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 05:09 PM
None so far that I know of.

Can we use this? I mean, Ron was in the Air Force. Can we get him a sweet jacket and he can come out to "Danger Zone"? That would have the Neo-Cons creaming their pants. Sorry, I'm still a child.

NewRightLibertarian
02-15-2011, 05:15 PM
'Class' is maintaining a false veneer of civility while a war criminal is handed a Constitution award for starting an illegal war.

I'm glad we are not seen as classy by these people whose ideologies are quickly being relegated to fringe status.

Dreamofunity
02-15-2011, 05:21 PM
Please, class has nothing to do with it, as evident by the booing presented when Ron Paul won both years. Even if we were the classiest, most polite group ever in existence, they would still hate us. For all intents and purposes, we crashed 'their' event and undermined their philosophy, a few boos is just icing on the cake to demonize the outcasts. It would be like if conservative statists crashed a purely libertarian event (say porcfest or something to do with the free state project) and voted George Bush as the greatest libertarian in history. We'd dislike them, and whether we blamed it on if they booed or refused to shake our hands, it's irrelevant. We'd hate them for even being there and undermining our event while attempting to overtake our movement.

You can't expect to take over an event or a political party and expect to make friends with those fundamentally oppose to our beliefs and currently in power.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 05:22 PM
Can we use this? I mean, Ron was in the Air Force. Can we get him a sweet jacket and he can come out to "Danger Zone"? That would have the Neo-Cons creaming their pants. Sorry, I'm still a child.

hahah! Probably a good idea! Kick it out there!

Chieppa1
02-15-2011, 05:22 PM
'Class' is maintaining a false veneer of civility while a war criminal is handed a Constitution award for starting an illegal war.

I'm glad we are not seen as classy by these people whose ideologies are quickly being relegated to fringe status.

Its like calling out the Catholic Church. Luther was seen as an asshole to the establishment. Now, he's pretty much right. Pointing out the truth is never wrong. I didn't join this movement be play sneaky, untruthful games to get ANYONE elected. I won't "pander" to emotional zombies that think blowing up half the world is America and keeps us safe.

I will do anything principled to get Ron elected.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 05:24 PM
Please, class has nothing to do with it, as evident by the booing presented when Ron Paul won both years. Even if we were the classiest, most polite group ever in existence, they would still hate us. For all intents and purposes, we crashed 'their' event and undermined their philosophy, a few boos is just icing on the cake to demonize the outcasts. It would be like if conservative statists crashed a purely libertarian event (say porcfest or something to do with the free state project) and voted George Bush as the greatest libertarian in history. We'd dislike them, and whether we blamed it on if they booed or refused to shake our hands, it's irrelevant. We'd hate them for even being there and undermining our event while attempting to overtake our movement.

You can't expect to take over an event or a political party and expect to make friends with those fundamentally oppose to our beliefs and currently in power.

Different dynamics altogether. Not a good analogy, sorry. Think strategically and don't make the same mistakes as last time or you'll doom his chances.

Agorism
02-15-2011, 05:25 PM
I'll bet you anything that the guy who authored that piece is a Mitt Romney supporter.

He is pissed that their aren't Mittens is the nominee articles everywhere right now so he rights a juvenile piece attacking Paul supporters.

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 05:26 PM
Its like calling out the Catholic Church. Luther was seen as an asshole to the establishment. Now, he's pretty much right. Pointing out the truth is never wrong. I didn't join this movement be play sneaky, untruthful games to get ANYONE elected. I won't "pander" to emotional zombies that think blowing up half the world is America and keeps us safe.

I will do anything principled to get Ron elected.

Anything? Then you'll respect Ron's wishes and act in a civil manner at these types of events.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 05:28 PM
Apples and oranges - and if you don't see the difference, I can't help you.

The lengths that people will go to in order to deny a simple reality is always a surprise to me.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 05:32 PM
Its like calling out the Catholic Church. Luther was seen as an asshole to the establishment. Now, he's pretty much right. Pointing out the truth is never wrong. I didn't join this movement be play sneaky, untruthful games to get ANYONE elected. I won't "pander" to emotional zombies that think blowing up half the world is America and keeps us safe.

I will do anything principled to get Ron elected.

*snort*

Deborah K
02-15-2011, 05:34 PM
*snort*

I lol'd! :D

Agorism
02-15-2011, 05:36 PM
So the author is a bitter Romney supporter?

angelatc
02-15-2011, 05:38 PM
'Class' is maintaining a false veneer of civility while a war criminal is handed a Constitution award for starting an illegal war.

I'm glad we are not seen as classy by these people whose ideologies are quickly being relegated to fringe status.

Ridiculous. The very definition of class is behaving with grace and dignity in less-than-ideal conditions. It is an admirable trait. But you're happy that people don't see us that way. You want them to see us as awkward and ignominious. Because we're always right, so we can act as badly as we want.

Feeding the Abscess
02-15-2011, 05:39 PM
Ron called Obama a warmonger. On live, national TV.

Can't get mad when his supporters call Richard Cheney a war criminal.

Just sayin'.

angelatc
02-15-2011, 05:44 PM
Ron called Obama a warmonger. On live, national TV.

Can't get mad when his supporters call Richard Cheney a war criminal.

Just sayin'.

Ron was invited to speak. That's the difference.

When Ron Paul stops getting invited to speak at Republican events, though, it will obviously be his message. It won't possibly be the disruptive behaviors of his supporters. That would be unfathomable.

TN_VOL
02-15-2011, 05:52 PM
Nobody reads that website. It's US alexa traffic rank is 2728, while LewRockwell.com is 1770 and InfoWars.com is 596. Oh and for what it's worth this site's rank is 5923, but it's a forum. So who really cares what they say?

Agorism
02-15-2011, 05:54 PM
RonPaulForums almost as large as the Redstate.

heh.

Captain America
02-15-2011, 05:56 PM
Can anyone against Ron Paul give a academic argument? All I see on this page is name calling.

Feeding the Abscess
02-15-2011, 06:19 PM
Ron was invited to speak. That's the difference.

When Ron Paul stops getting invited to speak at Republican events, though, it will obviously be his message. It won't possibly be the disruptive behaviors of his supporters. That would be unfathomable.

Ron's called Cheney and others in the Bush administration a war criminal many times.

I agree, it's not the best tact to take in a public setting - heckling them directly on live camera - but when it's done by the guy who lit the brushfire, I find it difficult to criticize zealous supporters for doing what they did.

Austrian Econ Disciple
02-15-2011, 07:23 PM
I am just curious...how did we grow the libertarian movement up to and before the Revolutionary War when the Sons of Liberty was running around tar and feathering, ridiculing, actively spying, infiltrating, and amassing a large organization of voluntary militias? This doesn't mean do not be polite when you are trying to convert people face to face, but when you are dealing with tyrants being polite is the last thing that works.

YumYum
02-15-2011, 07:47 PM
I am just curious...how did we grow the libertarian movement up to and before the Revolutionary War when the Sons of Liberty was running around tar and feathering, ridiculing, actively spying, infiltrating, and amassing a large organization of voluntary militias? This doesn't mean do not be polite when you are trying to convert people face to face, but when you are dealing with tyrants being polite is the last thing that works.

I think that next year we should all wear a tux and bow tie to CPAC and speak the King's English!

Thomas
02-15-2011, 07:53 PM
the hecklers are a bunch of obnoxious anarchists who for some reason go to political events

MelissaCato
02-15-2011, 07:57 PM
I think that next year we should all wear a tux and bow tie to CPAC and speak the King's English!

Next year I'm wearing by boots. Foget this high heels and makeup wearing. I seen cowboy boots @ CPAC. LOL

Anti Federalist
02-15-2011, 08:03 PM
Next year I'm wearing by boots. Foget this high heels and makeup wearing. I seen cowboy boots @ CPAC. LOL

Whoo Hoo, I'll have to go just for that!

Anti Federalist
02-15-2011, 08:11 PM
Please, class has nothing to do with it, as evident by the booing presented when Ron Paul won both years. Even if we were the classiest, most polite group ever in existence, they would still hate us. For all intents and purposes, we crashed 'their' event and undermined their philosophy, a few boos is just icing on the cake to demonize the outcasts. It would be like if conservative statists crashed a purely libertarian event (say porcfest or something to do with the free state project) and voted George Bush as the greatest libertarian in history. We'd dislike them, and whether we blamed it on if they booed or refused to shake our hands, it's irrelevant. We'd hate them for even being there and undermining our event while attempting to overtake our movement.

You can't expect to take over an event or a political party and expect to make friends with those fundamentally oppose to our beliefs and currently in power.

Boy, that ^^^^

+rep

All this tempest in a teapot fuss is much ado about nothing.

Dream has it right, we are fundamentally unwelcome.

You might as well have been a bunch of lepers walking in there.

As it was they were already uptight and pitching a fit that they were going to catch "teh ghey" from somebody.

You invaded their space at Ron Paul's request. And with all due respect to the good doctor, you'd have to be nuts to think there wouldn't be friction and sparks flying, FFS.

You could have kissed everybody's ass 20 times a piece, it would have been no more noticed than a fart in a blizzard.

Anti Federalist
02-15-2011, 08:42 PM
From another thread.


There is a time and a place for everything, but CPAC wasn’t the place to make your feelings known.

If not at a public, political gathering, then when, seriously?

Any other venue, like say a congressional hearing, and you will be arrested.

A public demonstration? That's no good, you're half a mile away in the "free speech zone".

Maybe a book signing or something like that? Shit, WeAreChange has been doing that for years. People around here would faint dead away if a WeAreChange video popped up with somebody heckling a Darth Cheny while wearing a Ron Paul shirt or something.

So, since I wasn't there, but if I had been, I would have been one of the asshole, idiot, immature shouters, you tell me: where can I exercise my right to air my grievances against government?

jtstellar
02-15-2011, 08:53 PM
-------- From Dailypaul.com ----------
http://www.dailypaul.com/157139/help-ron-paul-find-his-marbles-cpac-story

"Help Ron Paul find his marbles!" - CPAC Story
Submitted by SoCalPatriot on Tue, 02/15/2011 - 08:46
in

* Daily Paul Liberty Forum


I wanted to share one story from CPAC in particular. It took place on Saturday (the last day of the conference). The conference had just concluded and hundreds of attendees were mulling about the Marriott sharing stories and saying goodbye. I was quickly dragged down from my cloud nine (a result of the straw poll results) when I came across a group of college-aged conference-goers handing out a flier to passersby, saying, "Join the petition to help Ron Paul find his marbles!"

My first instinct was to ask for a handful, rip them up, and then throw them back into the face of this little twerp who had clearly printed them up in advance in anticipation of Dr. Paul's win. Then I thought I would just let them be and enjoy the smell of straw poll victory despite the twerp.

Instead I ended up going up to him and his cohorts, who were all heatedly arguing with Ron Paulers about their need for their own conventions because they don't fit in at CPAC, and took a more civil and diplomatic approach.

After speaking with them in a reasonable and non-confrontational way for about ten minutes, we shook hands, the "twerp" (who I now no longer think of as a twerp) put the fliers back into his backpack and we agreed to meet again next year. (hooray for building bridges and stopping war!)

HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART...

in our discussion I listened as this group expressed their problems/concerns with Ron Paul and his followers. It turned out they actually didn't mind Dr. Paul himself (they were even from Texas), but couldn't stand his supporters ("us" - in a collectivist sense). They said we were loud, obnoxious, and rude as we frequently interrupted speeches with boos or chants of "Ron Paul" and "End the Fed." They also expressed thanks to me for "dressing so nice and being so 'normal.'" They said they were "freaked out" by our desires to end the FED and didn't like how we always marched out of the room as soon the Pauls finished speaking or the straw poll results were announced...in other words they thought we were selfish listeners to top it off.

Whether you and I agree with them or not, these are some of the perceptions of the Ron Paul supporters. So I guess the moral to my story is that I think it would be a great idea if at future events we take these complaints into mind and make larger efforts to build bridges, be respectful, and reason with people one-on-one, listening to and acknowledging their concerns. When we get into the "big Ron Paul group" situation I think we become intimidating and tend to chant more than is necessary; we can make the biggest impact when we speak rationally with the opposition on a one-on-one basis.

That's just my two cents, anyway, so I hope it helps in the future.

Peace

---
UPDATE:
Wow...thanks for all of the responses to this issue; they are very interesting. I have to say I agree with all of you, even those who disagree with my original post. After reading all of the comments, I thought I would add a few more of my own...

I was split, pretty much down the middle, when considering my own advice; there are few things I enjoy more than being in a group of RP supporters chanting anything that promotes liberty. I was most definitely one of the chanters at CPAC this year and it brought back great memories from the campaign. I also thought that Dick Cheney and Rummy deserved their boos + those boos got some unique coverage for the convention...so in my opinion, I'd say those boos were all possibly justified, however, shouting "Ron Paul" arbitrarily in the middle of other speeches that had no mention of Ron Paul were probably unjustified and inappropriate (IMO)...Donald Trump didn't just lurch off his speech and criticize Ron Paul for nothing, he was responding to a guy who kept yelling "Ron Paul" arbitrarily. (just imagine...that whole controversy could have been avoided if that supporter had refrained from yelling).

I guess part of my point (that I failed to convey well in my original post) is that we should use our chants wisely and maybe reserve the boos for instances when we are directly affronted (ie. Rummy and Dick).

To Don Jorge: I hear your sentiments and agree to a certain extent...I was not saying that we should become neo-cons; that would defeat our entire purpose. I don't think anything will change the uniqueness with which the RP group rolls. I just think our philosophy (something they don't have) is more effective at winning than boos or chants. Let's be honest, who is more effective at this than Ron Paul himself?

When I approached the "twerp from Texas" he was in a shouting match with other Ron Paul supporters...it was going no where. When the conversation shifted to civility...we got somewhere. Best of all, I didn't compromise at all on the liberty philosophy; as an example: he mentioned that the "End the Fed" chants freaked him out so I told him to get a copy of RP's book so he could better understand our purpose (I wish I had had one to give him...prime example of why to carry a copy on your person at all times!).

Anyway, thanks again for the interesting discussion.

Also, someone below asked to share this on ronpaulforum...I don't have an account there, but if someone else does, then by all means please do.

Peace


**response**

mine:
good cop bad cop?
Submitted by jtstellar on Tue, 02/15/2011 - 14:40.

from a macro perspective perhaps this is one of those things.. good cop bad cop perhaps? you need a loud voice but that when it actually counts, you also have to be able to appeal, be diplomatic, and build bridges

the difficult thing is to figure out when to do what

i think the very fact that a topic like this is being discussed may signal the turning point at which rp already has enough name recognition, and that we need to steer more effort away from the intimidating "bad cop" behavior into the "good cop" appeal and persuasiveness.

this is sort of like free market economics when one sector becomes overcrowded with resources that could be more efficient if allocated elsewhere that people begin to themselves negotiate to make the changes.. sort of like spontaneous order. kind of an interesting topic to see brought up and certainly a very important one.. whether this movement makes the switch from "obtain recognition" to "garner support" successfully may be the deciding factor of this election.
-------------
from others:

The movement is getting to a point
Submitted by funfsinn14 on Tue, 02/15/2011 - 14:54.

The movement is getting to a point where we no longer need to have shock value. I agree with the sentiment that we should be more civil and not come off as 'exclusive' for whatever reason. In many ways I see a difference between Ron Paul and the supporters during the '08 campaign and Ron Paul and today.

Back then we needed and relied on 'shock' value to sort of say 'we're here and we're right' against an establishment that was just confused and afraid of our presence. Similarly, if you compare some of the old Ron Paul debates or clips to how his demeanor has been in the past two years you notice that he was more fiery and sort of bombastic, but in a necessary way. That was all critical at the time because the forces he (and we) were up against were absolutely clueless about our issues and concerns.

Today, RP is in many interviews and people want to have discussions with him about many many subjects and it's obvious with the election of Rand that the country on a larger stage is more susceptible to liberty. That is why when the 'stereotypical' RP supporter attitude of '08 resurfaces in situations like CPAC, the movement as a whole comes off in a bad way, sadly (it was more fun in '08 lol).

I think the movement as a whole is at a point where we can become mature in a broader sense in order to start making coalitions toward the direction of liberty. Of course there will always be the neo-cons who will block and sabotage our efforts but they are now the ones on their heels, not us anymore. They will be the ones that will have to shout out at rallies and cause commotion while the clear sentiment is that of liberty and our cause.


If we don't change our direction, we're likely to end up where we are headed.

-------------------
Gangs
Submitted by IMissLiberty on Tue, 02/15/2011 - 17:32.

I don't know what happened. When I was a teenager, we "hung out" and went places together, and had lots of fun.

Now that I'm old enough to have teenagers, they all look like gangs.

I guess the lesson is, just because a group is in uniform, doesn't mean they aren't still individuals.

This goes both ways, no matter which "gang" the individual hangs out with, it pays to remember that groups look different from the outside than the in.


IMissLiberty

------------------------

Co-opting BS
Submitted by Don Jorge on Tue, 02/15/2011 - 12:16.

So....your advice, to sustain a philosophical message of individual freedom, in opposition to the overwhelming statist, collectivist and elitist majority, is to:

* Dress nice.
* Be more "normal".
* Don't "freak people out" with all that "end-the-Fed talk".
* Learn to "listen" (to statists, elitists and warmongerers).
* Be more "normal" (so your position is indistinguishable).
* Take their "complaints" into mind (why aren't you a good serf?).
* Find "bridges" and learn to "compromise".
* Don't chant (be quiet, just vote in the 2-party arrangement)
* Speak rationally (with the irrational).

No change in popular thought has ever occurred without a passionate core of individuals having strong beliefs, and the majority of people will not follow leaders who do not have them.

---------------------------

That's not how I took it
Submitted by wes_h on Tue, 02/15/2011 - 13:08.

I thought he was saying the old adage "Be winsome to win some." I think we can change minds by meeting people on the grounds of philosophy, enthusiasm is good, but being overwhelmingly disruptive can leave people hating the messenger and ignoring the message. IMO, we have to be good messengers to help the philosophy find fertile soil.


________________________________
________________________________

more at http://www.dailypaul.com/157139/help-ron-paul-find-his-marbles-cpac-story


I know some people are lazy to click on links and re-read the entire thread on a different site.. that's why I'm doing this.. I think it's important and I wish people can get past venting and actually consider this question seriously.. like I mentioned in my earlier response.. this is perhaps one of those occasions on a macro scale similar to a spontaneous order of 'good cop bad cop'.. bad cop behavior provided, as another poster mentioned, shock value to the movement when we needed it to garner name recognition at near zero.. there may come a time when the persuasiveness of the good cop is needed.

the question is when to do what.

my take is that with ron paul's name recognition in the high 70s according to a recent poll.. perhaps it is time to start considering this question seriously.

Again.. link to the original post here.. there are dozens and dozens of responses and I can't post them all

---> http://www.dailypaul.com/157139/help-ron-paul-find-his-marbles-cpac-story

BeauBalentine
02-16-2011, 06:05 AM
Tell me how. Tell me how to convince a room full of old, ex-marines that we are fighting the wrong fight. I throw the Oath Keepers at them. I throw Ron's campaign money from the military at them. They don't care.

I'm an "old ex-marine" and I was convinced. There are some of those old guard types that will listen to reason, but when you're shouting down people and acting like a disgruntled college frat kid those kinds of people are not going to listen to you. In a dichotomous way, however; I do think what happened at CPAC was hilarious. You guys....

Captain America
02-16-2011, 12:22 PM
Welcome BeauBalentine

Flash
02-16-2011, 12:26 PM
the hecklers are a bunch of obnoxious anarchists who for some reason go to political events

I'm a Voluntaryist and I don't see what's so odd about going to political events..

Chieppa1
02-16-2011, 12:32 PM
I'm an "old ex-marine" and I was convinced. There are some of those old guard types that will listen to reason, but when you're shouting down people and acting like a disgruntled college frat kid those kinds of people are not going to listen to you. In a dichotomous way, however; I do think what happened at CPAC was hilarious. You guys....

The guy believes he is fighting a religious war for good against evil. Hopefully he's in the minority.

realtonygoodwin
02-17-2011, 12:56 AM
this is a great example of where some organization would do us dome good. Instead of flocking to the comment sections of bad press like an army of insects, we should maybe all collaborate and respond to these kind of things press release style. Have a community of writers that responds to these things by collaboration and perhaps voting. With the condition that we answer these heinous criticisms with class and humor.

So we hunt down these bad press items and basically have a collaborative blog that links to original document and that blog has responses to as many ron paulite/ron paul bashers as we can find and have time to rebuke.

Deborah k is right, we should show them that we are classy, and perhaps do that by everyone supporting a classy rebuke of negative press. Instead of wasting a lot of time writing comments to articles we're better spent by being united in our reponse, and perhaps just posting links to the collective liberty-flavored rebuke of the article.

agreed!

realtonygoodwin
02-17-2011, 01:55 AM
Well it appears Ron Paul supporters need a code of ethics. Any ideas?...i'll start with one.

1. Sit down and shut up.
2.?

3. Profit

TheeJoeGlass
02-17-2011, 02:10 AM
He didn't admonish anyone publicly, but I'm guessing he has a problem with rude, childish supporters. If he didn't, then why would he take the time to email everyone and ask them to be civil?

Political cover?

TheeJoeGlass
02-17-2011, 02:42 AM
Anything? Then you'll respect Ron's wishes and act in a civil manner at these types of events.

I agree with what you are saying. I would not be suprised to see an increase of imposters causing mayhem. This is a story line the Neocons are going to push.

Eric21ND
02-17-2011, 06:07 AM
I was trying to watch the forum hosted by Thomas Woods, with Jack Hunter, Ron Paul, and Rand Paul at CPAC (its on youtube) and it was nearly unwatchable with people from audience interjecting their $0.02 every minute or so. The cat-calling from the audience needs to stop. It makes us all look rather uncouth.

Mini-Me
02-17-2011, 06:22 AM
I agree with what you are saying. I would not be suprised to see an increase of imposters causing mayhem. This is a story line the Neocons are going to push.

This is a good point: Even if we all agreed here and could "control" all other Ron Paul supporters to make them "respectable," (yay freedom! ;)) it wouldn't matter. The establishment has already decided to portray us as "unwashed" in an attempt to discredit us, so one way or another, they will do what it takes to ensure they can keep pushing that story. As if the impossibility of herding cats didn't already make our internal debates on the issue moot, the ever-presence of saboteurs guarantees the irrelevance of any consensus, realistic or not.

IF it were possible, it would probably be best from a strategic point of view if we could present ourselves with a perfectly "domesticated" image (and do note that "domesticated" has both positive and negative connotations). However, it's really not, so we just have to hope that whatever happens, it works in our favor. As ClayTrainor said earlier, the heckling and booing and all that at least brings attention and debate, and if we're lucky, it will hearten other rabble-rousers until it actually becomes POPULAR to drive warmongering neocons off with thunderous jeering. If they are made to feel completely unwelcome at ALL political events, even their own, that would be an incredibly powerful display of public discontent. After all, it's not like politeness to them has any intrinsic value (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?279698-United-Liberty-quot-CPAC-was-the-wrong-place-to-make-that-statement-quot&p=3114835&viewfull=1#post3114835).

johnrocks
02-17-2011, 06:31 AM
Why even give RedState the pleasure of a hit, they call us uncivil yet ban Ron Paul supporters annd call us names so I rarely even go there unless someone here posts a link about Ron Paul at that miserable excuse of a blog.

angelatc
02-17-2011, 07:16 AM
We no longer have to act crazy to get attention. He raised money, has an extensive organization through C4L and even statewide in Iowa, and he gets lots of love in the media [Don't believe me? How many times has Duncan Hunter, Tommy Thompson, Rudy Guiliani, Fred Thompson, Tom Tancredo been interviewed since the election? My guess combined Paul still outnumbers them 5:1.]

From a coblogger at RedStateEclectic . (http://redstateeclectic.typepad.com/redstate_commentary/2011/02/cpac-2011-ron-pauls-achilles-heel.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RedstateeclecticCommentary+%2 8RedStateEclectic+Commentary%29)

jmdrake
02-17-2011, 11:35 AM
The Serenity Prayer
Path

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

--Reinhold Niebuhr


Application? We have over 200 posts in this thread alone over how Ron Paul supporters should / should not behave. That's about as effective as....

http://www.jugglingcats.com/video/Images/cat_herding.jpg

Seraphim
02-17-2011, 11:37 AM
I suppose the support of the vetted GOP and Dem candidates that all support the bombing of women and children is a prime example of classy behaviour.

I like the twilight zone.

jmdrake
02-17-2011, 11:37 AM
Why even give RedState the pleasure of a hit, they call us uncivil yet ban Ron Paul supporters annd call us names so I rarely even go there unless someone here posts a link about Ron Paul at that miserable excuse of a blog.

^This. We give our enemies power over us when we pay attention to them. These folks are going to hate Ron Paul no matter what. Learn that. Understand that. Deal with that.