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BlackTerrel
02-07-2011, 07:36 PM
It is almost amazing the amount of inefficiencies in the economy produced by all this government tampering. The fact that we still have a relatively good economy, food on the table, iphones, and internet is a testament to the smarts of the people who actually do produce value.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703445904576118030935929752.html


Amid calls for shrinking government, lawmakers across the country are vowing to cut regulations that crimp economic growth. President Barack Obama recently said it's time to root out laws that "are just plain dumb."

Tell that to the cat groomers, tattoo artists, tree trimmers and about a dozen other specialists across the country who are clamoring for more rules governing small businesses.

They're asking to become state-licensed professionals, which would mean anyone wanting to be, say, a music therapist or a locksmith, would have to pay fees, apply for a license and in some cases, take classes and pass exams. The hope is that regulation will boost the prestige of their professions, provide oversight and protect consumers from shoddy work.

But economists—and workers shut out of fields by educational requirements or difficult exams—say licensing mostly serves as a form of protectionism, allowing veterans of the trade to box out competitors who might undercut them on price or offer new services.

"Occupations prefer to be licensed because they can restrict competition and obtain higher wages," said Morris Kleiner, a labor professor at the University of Minnesota. "If you go to any statehouse, you'll see a line of occupations out the door wanting to be licensed."

While some states have long required licensing for workers who handle food or touch others—caterers and hair stylists, for example—economists say such regulation is spreading to more states for more industries. The most recent study, from 2008, found 23% of U.S. workers were required to obtain state licenses, up from just 5% in 1950, according to data from Mr. Kleiner. In the mid-1980s, about 800 professions were licensed in at least one state. Today, at least 1,100 are, according to the Council on Licensure, Enforcement and Regulation, a trade group for regulatory bodies. Among the professions licensed by one or more states: florists, interior designers, private detectives, hearing-aid fitters, conveyor-belt operators and retailers of frozen desserts.

At a time of widespread anxiety about the growth of government, the licensing push is meeting pockets of resistance, including a move by some legislators to require a more rigorous cost-benefit analysis before any new licensing laws are approved. Critics say such regulation spawns huge bureaucracies including rosters of inspectors. They also say licensing requirements—which often include pricey educations—can prohibit low-income workers from breaking in to entry-level trades.

Texas, for instance, requires hair-salon "shampoo specialists" to take 150 hours of classes, 100 of them on the "theory and practice" of shampooing, before they can sit for a licensing exam. That consists of a written test and a 45-minute demonstration of skills such as draping the client with a clean cape and evenly distributing conditioner. Glass installers, or glaziers, in Connecticut—the only state that requires such workers to be licensed—take two exams, at $52 apiece, pay $300 in initial fees and $150 annually thereafter...

.... more at link

oyarde
02-07-2011, 07:49 PM
They will get around to the rest . They want the revenue...

bwlibertyman
02-07-2011, 07:54 PM
Wow. That's a good point. I can't think of many things that don't require licenses. I can think of a lot of part time jobs like grocery clerks and fast food jobs. Just about any job that pays well must be licensed. I'm thinking of accountants, carpenters, dentists, doctors, lawyers, anybody in upper management anywhere, firemen, policemen. Is there a good paying job besides entrepreneurs that actually make decent dough?

amy31416
02-07-2011, 07:55 PM
Penn & Teller had a show on this topic, it was pretty good at pointing out the absurdities of most licensing.

I couldn't find it though.

How helpful am I?

Athena
02-07-2011, 07:57 PM
What a racket. (Or rather, what a bunch of rackets, I guess...lol)

Anti Federalist
02-07-2011, 08:03 PM
Two points to make here:

Support Institute for Justice.

They have been all over this for years now.

http://www.ij.org/

Second point:

Watch how this plays into the feds hands.

As DHS expands it's scope and reach through programs like TWIC, it will become more and more easy for government to deny you the ability to work, simply by putting your name in a centralized database.

On the "No Fly List"? No job for you.

How can government prevent you from holding a job? By making a "license" (aka known as government permission) a pre-requisite of having a job.

(And I remember hearing how this would all play out 30 years ago, told to me by a JBS "conspiracy kook". I wish I had paid more attention then, just as some of you dismiss things now as, "oh that could never happen")

squarepusher
02-07-2011, 08:03 PM
charge you to get into business, charge you on what you make ... lol

Anti Federalist
02-07-2011, 08:06 PM
They will get around to the rest . They want the revenue...

In the words of Hannibal Lecter:

"No! That is incidental."

Revenue is secondary.

This is about control.

heavenlyboy34
02-07-2011, 08:11 PM
Wow. That's a good point. I can't think of many things that don't require licenses. I can think of a lot of part time jobs like grocery clerks and fast food jobs. Just about any job that pays well must be licensed. I'm thinking of accountants, carpenters, dentists, doctors, lawyers, anybody in upper management anywhere, firemen, policemen. Is there a good paying job besides entrepreneurs that actually make decent dough?

Graphic designers, musicians, and composers don't have to be licensed. Employers usually expect a degree, though.

oyarde
02-07-2011, 08:13 PM
Graphic designers, musicians, and composers don't have to be licensed. Employers usually expect a degree, though.

But barbers , massage therapists , beauticians , bartenders etc etc

2young2vote
02-07-2011, 08:15 PM
In my city there needs to be someone who is serve safe certified working in the store at all times that the business is open. We are talking an ice cream shop here. It isn't exactly something you need to take an eight hour class for. I had to take it, about 95% of the stuff i learned means nothing to my job, and the rest is common sense stuff that the business would be doing anyways just because we want to make the customer happy and do not want to get them sick.

So even in the most basic service job a license is needed for at least one person at the store.

AFPVet
02-07-2011, 08:16 PM
Yup. To be an administrator for example, requires a license. To work private security (even body guards) you have to work under a company which has a license, or possess a license and insurance yourself. To be a law enforcement officer requires certification. To be an HR manager does not require certification or license, but having that PHR, SPHR or GPHR is always good. It's all about money.

forsmant
02-07-2011, 08:18 PM
Interior decorators have been lobbying some states to get licensed too. I don't need a license to tell someone how to spend their money. Shesh.

Matt Collins
02-07-2011, 08:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo-boNsFfCU&feature=player_embedded

ihsv
02-07-2011, 08:23 PM
Graphic designers, musicians, and composers don't have to be licensed. Employers usually expect a degree, though.

That's why I decided to get into web/graphic design. Started my own shop back in 2002 and have been doing it full time now since early 2008. Best decision I ever made; and I don't have to worry about degrees, licenses, permissions, forms, etc. Just do what I love to do and get paid for it. Now THAT's freedom :)

__27__
02-07-2011, 09:18 PM
Yup. To be an administrator for example, requires a license. To work private security (even body guards) you have to work under a company which has a license, or possess a license and insurance yourself. To be a law enforcement officer requires certification. To be an HR manager does not require certification or license, but having that PHR, SPHR or GPHR is always good. It's all about money.

Actually, contrary to popular belief, licenses have nothing to do with money. It may be a nice side effect, but it is not the goal. The goal of a license is to restrict your freedom of movement. If you are a licensed attorney in Minnesota, you have chained yourself to Minnesota, you are not free to practice anywhere and for anyone you please. It's about control, don't be fooled.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P772Eb63qIY

Athena
02-07-2011, 09:23 PM
Sometimes it's about money. Freaking CAT GROOMERS seeking to have that be a regulated/licensed profession are totally being protectionist and trying to increase their salaries. Sometimes things are really that simple.

oyarde
02-07-2011, 09:24 PM
Sometimes it's about money. Freaking CAT GROOMERS seeking to have that be a regulated/licensed profession are totally being protectionist and trying to increase their salaries. Sometimes things are really that simple.

LOL , I can see it now , the cat groomer union...

__27__
02-07-2011, 09:33 PM
Sometimes it's about money. Freaking CAT GROOMERS seeking to have that be a regulated/licensed profession are totally being protectionist and trying to increase their salaries. Sometimes things are really that simple.

That's not about money, that's about control. Control to EXCLUDE others from competing with you. Money just represents the pieces on the board, the game that is being played is control.

Athena
02-07-2011, 09:34 PM
That's not about money, that's about control. Control to EXCLUDE others from competing with you. Money just represents the pieces on the board, the game that is being played is control.

Control is the means and money is the end.

Andrew-Austin
02-07-2011, 09:45 PM
That's not about money, that's about control. Control to EXCLUDE others from competing with you. Money just represents the pieces on the board, the game that is being played is control.

So who exactly in the state apparatus is jerking off to all the power barber and food service licenses give him?

Its just a socioeconomic consequence of having an institution with a coercive monopoly over the law, that is beholden to special interests. No one has a fetish over the petty controls that are small time license laws. There is pressure to enact them stemming from the economic motivations of special interest groups.

oyarde
02-07-2011, 09:46 PM
So who exactly in the state apparatus is jerking off to all the power barber and food service licenses give him?

Its just a socioeconomic consequence of having an institution with a coercive monopoly over the law, that is beholden to special interests. No one has a fetish over the petty controls that are small time license laws. There is pressure to enact them stemming from the economic motivations of special interest groups.

I can see it both ways , but you are onto something here .

__27__
02-07-2011, 09:48 PM
Control is the means and money is the end.

No, you have that backwards my friend. Money (fiat) is the means of control. Money is meaningless without control.

Anti Federalist
02-07-2011, 09:49 PM
Control is the means and money is the end.

I disagree.

Money is not the ends here, power and control is.

In fact, many of the worst butchers of the past 100 years led lives of relative austerity.

Athena
02-07-2011, 09:52 PM
So who exactly in the state apparatus is jerking off to all the power barber and food service licenses give him?

Its just a socioeconomic consequence of having an institution with a coercive monopoly over the law, that is beholden to special interests. No one has a fetish over the petty controls that are small time license laws. There is pressure to enact them stemming from the economic motivations of special interest groups.

I bet it's the high-end businesses who've been around a while and have a reputation among the wealthy and cater to the rich the are pushing for this crap - the groomers (I can see this because I've worked in pet grooming) whose basic package starts at $100 and includes deep fur conditioning treatments, anal gland expression, and other superfluous crap that are trying to push out the nOObs and people who cater to those who just want to pay someone $25 to de-dread their long-haired pet.

__27__
02-07-2011, 09:53 PM
So who exactly in the state apparatus is jerking off to all the power barber and food service licenses give him?

Ummmm....anyone who want's a controllable populace? You are thinking to micro, as though the job description has anything to do with it. It is about control, plain and simple. It's not as though someone who wants control over other peoples lives says "oh look, that one's just a barber, I don't want control over him..." they want control over EVERYONE.


Its just a socioeconomic consequence of having an institution with a coercive monopoly over the law, that is beholden to special interests. No one has a fetish over the petty controls that are small time license laws. There is pressure to enact them stemming from the economic motivations of special interest groups.

And those in 'power' put up no fight because more control is what they seek. They have achieved here, as in many other instances (dependent classes), the ability to convince their subjects to demand that those in power have MORE control over their lives. It's a twisted game, and to ignore the root is to allow the tree to live.

Athena
02-07-2011, 09:54 PM
I disagree.

Money is not the ends here, power and control is.

In fact, many of the worst butchers of the past 100 years led lives of relative austerity.

So, you don't think the cat grooming businesses who want cat groomers to have to be licensed, are being primarily motivated by the allure of more money coming for excluding a lot of businesses from the market?

__27__
02-07-2011, 09:57 PM
So, you don't think the cat grooming businesses who want cat groomers to have to be licensed, are being primarily motivated by the allure of more money coming for excluding a lot of businesses from the market?

Do you think the cat grooming businesses who want cat groomers to have to be licensed get any power out of this? You are missing the point, it is not the controlled who have the power, but the controller. It is he who has the monopoly on force to decree his license must be obtained in the first place. Merely petitioning the monopoly on force to line your pockets in return for your subservience doesn't change the root of the matter, control.

Anti Federalist
02-07-2011, 10:00 PM
So, you don't think the cat grooming businesses who want cat groomers to have to be licensed, are being primarily motivated by the allure of more money coming for excluding a lot of businesses from the market?

Certainly.

And at certain, lower, level, government functionaries look at revenue from fees and graft as positive outcome to all this.

But at the higher level, and when your "License to Groom Felines" meets a nexus point with the feds and their databases, it becomes more about control rather than a measly $50 license fee.

Athena
02-07-2011, 10:11 PM
Certainly.

And at certain, lower, level, government functionaries look at revenue from fees and graft as positive outcome to all this.

But at the higher level, and when your "License to Groom Felines" meets a nexus point with the feds and their databases, it becomes more about control rather than a measly $50 license fee.

Well, ok. I'm looking into the grooming license debate:

http://www.gloucestertimes.com/local/x645268610/Bill-calls-for-state-board-to-regulate-pet-groomers-Would-ban-drying-device-alleged-to-have-killed-Rockport-dog

So, we have a groomer's PAC (eyeroll) and they're just trying to sew up the market. Then you have well-meaning (in their own perverse way) "busybody" NGO people who just like lobbying for laws "for the sake of the animals!!1!1" And then there are the politicians who pass the laws, who are probably a mixed bag of nuts, some just taking bribes from the aforementioned groups, and some who probably are more sinister control-freaks.

Vessol
02-07-2011, 10:14 PM
It is almost amazing the amount of inefficiencies in the economy produced by all this government tampering. The fact that we still have a relatively good economy, food on the table, iphones, and internet is a testament to the smarts of the people who actually do produce value.

QFT!

It's amazing that even with such an ever-expanding gerontocracy, the producers can actually still sustain all the parasites.

heavenlyboy34
02-07-2011, 10:18 PM
That's why I decided to get into web/graphic design. Started my own shop back in 2002 and have been doing it full time now since early 2008. Best decision I ever made; and I don't have to worry about degrees, licenses, permissions, forms, etc. Just do what I love to do and get paid for it. Now THAT's freedom :)

Hell yeah! I need some seed money and a location first, but once I get that I can set up a similar business and give music lessons for extra cash and do freelance design when it comes along. I don't even need an elaborate business plan-just organization skills that I picked up in business class. :cool:

MN Patriot
02-07-2011, 10:28 PM
That's why I decided to get into web/graphic design. Started my own shop back in 2002 and have been doing it full time now since early 2008. Best decision I ever made; and I don't have to worry about degrees, licenses, permissions, forms, etc. Just do what I love to do and get paid for it. Now THAT's freedom :)

That's great, but just you wait! After government regulates the internet to make it safer for all of us, programmers and developers will have to be licensed for the public good, public safety, stop terrorism, blah, blah.

I was an aircraft mechanic for 20 years, licensed of course. The only thing the A&P license is good for is to sign off the logbook after repairs and maintenance. Thought my future looked bright. But because of regulations, anybody can fix aircraft, only a licensed mechanic can sign the logbook. After 9/11 and yet another airline downturn, maintenance has been outsourced to foreign countries and FBO's that hire any mallet wielding wrench turner that shows up. Just a few managers with licenses sign off what the low paid grease monkeys fix. So my airline days are long past.

Went back to school for computer science, now am a Java programmer. Unlicensed (for now).

Vessol
02-07-2011, 10:28 PM
Man, I'm totally not the creative type to really go out and work on contract for art. I write here and there for hobby, but I could never work that way under a contract. Lot of respect for you guys.

I have some misgivings over my persuit of a history degree, I hope that I'll be able to become a teacher, and having to live with teaching within what would most likely be a public school(at first, at least)

Dreamofunity
02-07-2011, 10:41 PM
Rent seeking...

Athena
02-07-2011, 11:01 PM
Rent seeking...

Yes.

Brooklyn Red Leg
02-07-2011, 11:13 PM
Private Security, which is what I do, requires at least 2 separate Licenses in the State of Florida if you're armed: Class D (Unarmed) and Class G (Armed). And yea, we make about $9 hour average (Unarmed) and $11 hour average (Armed). We have to supply most of our own gear, usually, except for uniforms. So yea, this is bullshit that a License gives a job 'prestige and higher pay'. What it means is that The State can fine us or have us fired (no shit) for any number of ridiculous rules (not carrying your license on your person while on the job). Oh, and we have to compete with off-duty Cops, Sheriffs and Highway Patrol for jobs.

Pete Kay
02-07-2011, 11:33 PM
Though I can see the reason that licensing is usually unnecessary, sometimes I can see the point in it. I work in underground utility locating and it's not something that requires a license. Some people have it in their heads that anybody can do this line of work and that leads to a lot of problems. People have died because of poorly trained persons mislocating power or gas lines. It's easy to take the libertarian stance and just say that the market will correct this, but it doesn't. I've been in this field for 11 years and there's always a few start up companies coming about trying to undercut the more established ones by paying schlubs that don't know any better $7 hr, when good techs make $20. They throw inept people out there and then your phone, cable, power and gas get cut. Worse, people get maimed or die.

Vessol
02-07-2011, 11:54 PM
Though I can see the reason that licensing is usually unnecessary, sometimes I can see the point in it. I work in underground utility locating and it's not something that requires a license. Some people have it in their heads that anybody can do this line of work and that leads to a lot of problems. People have died because of poorly trained persons mislocating power or gas lines. It's easy to take the libertarian stance and just say that the market will correct this, but it doesn't. I've been in this field for 11 years and there's always a few start up companies coming about trying to undercut the more established ones by paying schlubs that don't know any better $7 hr, when good techs make $20. They throw inept people out there and then your phone, cable, power and gas get cut. Worse, people get maimed or die.

Economically speaking
1) Is that company which is able to undercut so vastly due to their low wages going to last on the market that long if they keep fucking up?
2) The current power grid is not representative of a free market. Do you really think the maintainers of a power grid would let some untested company with poorly trained staff access to such powerful assets?
3) Who says that within a free market that certain organizations would appear that grant certificates that certify the company or individual in question they know what they are doing, that organization would depend on their reputation and they would get money from individuals going to them for those certificates in order to get more business by perceived efficiency.

Morally speaking
1) What do you think should be done to those who aren't licensed and work in a field that the government requires a license? The only thing the government can do is to initate force against the individual or company, either directly or more often through fines.

Athena
02-08-2011, 12:41 AM
Though I can see the reason that licensing is usually unnecessary, sometimes I can see the point in it. I work in underground utility locating and it's not something that requires a license. Some people have it in their heads that anybody can do this line of work and that leads to a lot of problems. People have died because of poorly trained persons mislocating power or gas lines. It's easy to take the libertarian stance and just say that the market will correct this, but it doesn't. I've been in this field for 11 years and there's always a few start up companies coming about trying to undercut the more established ones by paying schlubs that don't know any better $7 hr, when good techs make $20. They throw inept people out there and then your phone, cable, power and gas get cut. Worse, people get maimed or die.

I can see it for some things which reach a certain "danger threshold".

CAT GROOMERS do not need to be licensed, though.

DamianTV
02-08-2011, 01:20 AM
Requiring licenses eliminates potential competition of anyone looking to get into the already saturated market.