Wikileaks: "The Egyptian 'people blame America' now for their plight under Mubarak."

[charrob]

Wikileaks: "The Egyptian 'people blame America' now for their plight under Mubarak."

Viewing cable 10DOHA71, SENATOR KERRY'S MEETING WITH QATAR'S PRIME MINISTER (HBJ)


Returning to his theme that "peace brokers" act in their own self-interest, HBJ observed that President Mubarak of Egypt is thinking about how his son can take his place and how to stave off the growing strength of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Egyptian government, said HBJ, has jailed 10,000 Muslim Brotherhood members without bringing court cases against them. The Egyptian "people blame America" now for their plight. The shift in mood on the ground is "mostly because of Mubarak and his close ties" to the United States.

http://wikileaks.ch/cable/2010/02/10DOHA71.html

[puppetmaster]

i still have a feeling Israel has something to do with this flare up. They have conducted covert ops in the past without US knowledge. This may explain the lack of a cohesive media spin in the beginning.

[Vessol]

Why would Israel support the protests in Egypt? The Egyptian regime is a puppet of the U.S, like Israel, and they have a vested interest in the current regime staying in power.
If the current regime is toppled, it's very likely that the Muslim Brotherhood will have a strong say in the new regime, and the Muslim Brotherhood is not an ally at all of Israel. The southern border of the Gaza concentration camp will open up, Israel won't like that.

[charrob]

i still have a feeling Israel has something to do with this flare up. They have conducted covert ops in the past without US knowledge. This may explain the lack of a cohesive media spin in the beginning.

It looks like we've been bribing the egyptian government for 30 years with taxpayer dollars not to go to war with israel and not allow any other regional countries go to war with israel. We train their soldiers and give them our most advanced technology.

This is all so crazy. The U.S. shouldn't be giving weapons or technology to any other country. It looks like the egyptian people have been suppressed in a police state and since we've provided that police state, they aren't happy with us.



Major General Fouad Arafa interjected during the discussion to note that the spirit of the Camp David accord was that there would be a 2:3 balance between Egypt and Israel's security assistance. Egypt's role was to keep a certain balance of power in the region that would not allow other parties to go to war. Egypt had fulfilled this role faithfully for the last 30 years. al-Assar added that the current ratio of 2:5 was a violation of the Camp David ratio.

Egypt has spent approximately $40 million to purchase the steel for the underground wall on the Gaza border, and Egypt was paying the cost of this wall in terms of public opinion both within Egypt and the region. [This is not surprising as i've read in the past that many in Egypt are upset about their government's role in suppressing the Palestinians.]

Dr. Kahl encouraged Egypt to sign a Communications Electronics Security Agreement (CESA aka CISMOA) with the Unites States, which would pave the way for the transfer of advanced technology to Egypt and greatly increase interoperability. Al-Assar stated that Egypt had "its reasons to delay a decision on a CISMOA." He noted that thousands of Egyptian military officers have participated in training and education programs in the United States and learned about U.S. technology and strategy. He commented that the younger officers are frustrated with the delay in obtaining political release for more advanced U.S. technology. Specifically, al-Assar referred to TOW2B and JAVELIN, which he commented had already been released to other countries. Al-Assar noted that a CISMOA was not a condition for obtaining these systems, but instead they were held up due to a "third party".

Al-Assar encouraged Dr. Kahl to convince the U.S. Congress that Egypt was worth more than $1.3 billion a year. Dr. Kahl mentioned that Egypt receives the second largest amount of assistance in the world, and that during these difficult financial times in the United States, it was unlikely that annual flow of FMF would increase. He did however reassure the Egyptian officials that the USG would continue to advocate for current levels of FMF and push back on any attempts to condition those funds.

http://wikileaks.ch/cable/2010/02/10CAIRO257.html

[lester1/2jr]

theres nothing th US or israel can do though. send in troops to support mubarak? now?

[charrob]

theres nothing th US or israel can do though. send in troops to support mubarak? now?

the problem, as i see it, is that we've been supporting Mubarak (and the israelis) for 30 years. it looks like the egyptian people blame us for the police state they apparently now find themselves in.

Ron Paul is right: we need to stop all foreign aid and involvement... let the dice fall as they may.

[Stary Hickory]

LOL how about Egyptians blame their own dumb asses for letting a dictator rule them for 30 years. Good God, they are blaming everyone but those who allowed it to happen in the first place...no wonder they have such a shitty deal...they take no responsibility for their own predicament. Had they not tolerated it, they would not be in the position they are in.

[dizi24]

i still have a feeling Israel has something to do with this flare up. They have conducted covert ops in the past without US knowledge. This may explain the lack of a cohesive media spin in the beginning.

Why would Israel do this? First, Mubarak has maintained a civil relationship with Israel. They're not best friends, but there is no threat from the Egyptian government. Second, Egypt has been brutal with respect to the Gaza border. The wall they built is more impressive than that wall the Israelis built. Third, chaos creates the potential for a loosened border between Gaza and Egypt. It allows Hamas a chance to smuggle through the Egyptian border. Finally, what they get in place of Mubarak is completely unknown. There's a very good chance they end up with someone less friendly to Israel.

It doesn't even remotely make sense.

[charrob]

LOL how about Egyptians blame their own dumb asses for letting a dictator rule them for 30 years. Good God, they are blaming everyone but those who allowed it to happen in the first place...no wonder they have such a shitty deal...they take no responsibility for their own predicament. Had they not tolerated it, they would not be in the position they are in.

yes, but it was with our weapons, our adv. technology, our taxpayers dollars, our training of their military inside the U.S. that they've been suppressed...

[Stary Hickory]

yes, but it was with our weapons, our adv. technology, our taxpayers dollars, our training of their military inside the U.S. that they've been suppressed...

We did not give them that much money. Egyptians supported that government willingly or passively...but they did it.

[Vessol]

LOL how about Egyptians blame their own dumb asses for letting a dictator rule them for 30 years. Good God, they are blaming everyone but those who allowed it to happen in the first place...no wonder they have such a shitty deal...they take no responsibility for their own predicament. Had they not tolerated it, they would not be in the position they are in.

Guess you failed to get the memo about how tens of thousands of people have been arrested over the years by the secret police there?

That's like saying its Winston Smith's fault he is in the Ministry of Love.

[romacox]

Did you hear Obama's speech to Mubarak? He told him to listen to his people, and to make his words meaningful. I think he (Obama) could listen to his own advise.

[specsaregood]

As far as I'm concerned this just backs up Dr. Paul's previous statements on foreign policy and interventionism.
Laugh now neocons....

[Stary Hickory]

Guess you failed to get the memo about how tens of thousands of people have been arrested over the years by the secret police there?

That's like saying its Winston Smith's fault he is in the Ministry of Love.

No it is THEIR fault, they support the government, they don't have to. They chose to. There is no chance for liberty when the people who enslave themselves are too stupid to realize it. Egypt will never be free as long as they hold onto such a mentality. This gets pretty lame really, the only people who can help them is themselves, they are the ones who empower government, they support it, they are responsible. If they are trying to find 3rd parties to blame this on they are a lost cause. Their minds are too broken.

[Vessol]

No it is THEIR fault, they support the government, they don't have to. They chose to. There is no chance for liberty when the people who enslave themselves are too stupid to realize it. Egypt will never be free as long as they hold onto such a mentality. This gets pretty lame really, the only people who can help them is themselves, they are the ones who empower government, they support it, they are responsible. If they are trying to find 3rd parties to blame this on they are a lost cause. Their minds are too broken.

So I guess you and I are response for the Federal Reserve too, thus we and the American people in general deserve it? And the Patriot Act?

Stop being such a collectivist.

[charrob]

No it is THEIR fault, they support the government, they don't have to. They chose to. There is no chance for liberty when the people who enslave themselves are too stupid to realize it. Egypt will never be free as long as they hold onto such a mentality. This gets pretty lame really, the only people who can help them is themselves, they are the ones who empower government, they support it, they are responsible. If they are trying to find 3rd parties to blame this on they are a lost cause. Their minds are too broken.

Many antiwar protesters in this country have had their homes raided at 5am in the morning by the F.B.I. for no other reason than their protests to end the war. Many have been silenced by this through fear, and many others refuse to take part out of fear.



Indefinite detention. Ubiquitous torture. Secret courts. Special authority for police interventions. The complete absence of privacy, even in one's own home.

Astute followers of American politics might think those items a dog whistle, evoking the worst civil liberties abuses permitted by the USA PATRIOT Act and other "emergency" provisions passed in the wake of Sept. 11, 2001.

They are, in fact, just a few of the powers claimed in an Egyptian "emergency" law passed in 1958, that goes even further than the controversial American security provisions.

The law has been used to keep the country under an officially declared "state of emergency" since the assassination of President Anwar el-Sadat in 1981. Prior to that, it had been invoked frequently since 1967, in the aftermath of the Arab-Israeli war.

Egyptians have been campaigning against it ever since.

Torture and brutality in Egypt's prisons was long known to American officials, another leaked cable revealed Friday.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/perpetual-emergency-1981-egypt-gave-government-uslike-special-powers/

[pcosmar]

No it is THEIR fault, they support the government, they don't have to. They chose to. There is no chance for liberty when the people who enslave themselves are too stupid to realize it. Egypt will never be free as long as they hold onto such a mentality. This gets pretty lame really, the only people who can help them is themselves, they are the ones who empower government, they support it, they are responsible. If they are trying to find 3rd parties to blame this on they are a lost cause. Their minds are too broken.

No they didn't "choose" it. It was imposed on them.
Thousands have been arrested tortured and murdered over the years for speaking out against it.

Now Hundreds of thousands are demanding . They want the imposed puppet government gone., and free elections.

[amy31416]

We did not give them that much money.

HAHAHAHAHA! What??

[teacherone]

HAHAHAHAHA! What??

what's 68, 000, 000, 000 among friends?

[amy31416]

what's 68, 000, 000, 000 among friends?

Apparently, not much. I wanna be Stary Hickory's friend. :p

[Pericles]

What happened was the will of Allah.

[puppetmaster]

Why would Israel do this? First, Mubarak has maintained a civil relationship with Israel. They're not best friends, but there is no threat from the Egyptian government. Second, Egypt has been brutal with respect to the Gaza border. The wall they built is more impressive than that wall the Israelis built. Third, chaos creates the potential for a loosened border between Gaza and Egypt. It allows Hamas a chance to smuggle through the Egyptian border. Finally, what they get in place of Mubarak is completely unknown. There's a very good chance they end up with someone less friendly to Israel.

It doesn't even remotely make sense.

how about the only way for Israel to expand its borders and its control of the area is to create a large scale war. They know we are getting weaker by the day and they need our support to have a shot at control in the area. If they wait just a few more years then we very well could be powerless and they would have to depend on the other top tier nations to protect them....can you imagine the support that they would receive from China....Not much if any. I believe that the Israeli government wants a war in that region NOW.

[Vessol]

how about the only way for Israel to expand its borders and its control of the area is to create a large scale war. They know we are getting weaker by the day and they need our support to have a shot at control in the area. If they wait just a few more years then we very well could be powerless and they would have to depend on the other top tier nations to protect them....can you imagine the support that they would receive from China....Not much if any. I believe that the Israeli government wants a war in that region NOW.

I think Israel has enough problems with their current borders and area without needing to expand anywhere.

I just can't follow the logic. Why would Israel want one of it's number one allies in the region to be overthrown? This won't result in a war, I have a feeling that within a week a new government will be in place and protests will subside like in Tunisia. The new government won't be as Israeli-friendly undoubtedly.

[puppetmaster]

I think Israel has enough problems with their current borders and area without needing to expand anywhere.

I just can't follow the logic. Why would Israel want one of it's number one allies in the region to be overthrown? This won't result in a war, I have a feeling that within a week a new government will be in place and protests will subside like in Tunisia. The new government won't be as Israeli-friendly undoubtedly.

yea it is a tough idea to grasp.
Let me ask you this. Do you think that Israel will be better off in this region in 5-10 years if things stay the same in the region? I am talking without the Egypt issue.

the current trend with regards to the approval rating of Israel worldwide has been declining.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

We have enough problems to deal with in America. Who cares about Israel? They can defend themselves if need be.

[puppetmaster]

We have enough problems to deal with in America. Who cares about Israel? They can defend themselves if need be.

I bring this up as to only discuss their hand in this if there is one. Yes we do have our own problems

[pcosmar]

We have enough problems to deal with in America. Who cares about Israel? They can defend themselves if need be.

Because of their influence on and within our government.
This WILL affect us directly. For better of worse.

No, I don't think Israel was behind this. And this is not directly about Israel, but it will no doubt affect them. And that will affect us.

[puppetmaster]

Because of their influence on and within our government.
This WILL affect us directly. For better of worse.

No, I don't think Israel was behind this. And this is not directly about Israel, but it will no doubt affect them. And that will affect us.


I just think that all it not what it seems......

[pcosmar]

I just think that all it not what it seems......

What does it seem?


We will not be silenced. Whether you are a Christian, whether you are a Muslim, whether you are an Atheist, you will get back your GD rights. And we will have our rights!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvoyfMLO6rU

[Fredom101]

It looks like we've been bribing the egyptian government for 30 years with taxpayer dollars not to go to war with israel and not allow any other regional countries go to war with israel. We train their soldiers and give them our most advanced technology.

This is all so crazy. The U.S. shouldn't be giving weapons or technology to any other country. It looks like the egyptian people have been suppressed in a police state and since we've provided that police state, they aren't happy with us.

Please watch the collectivist speak. "We" didn't give them anything. The US government stole the money from us and gave it to them. "They" aren't happy with the US gov't.

[1000-points-of-fright]

On CNN yesterday I saw a protester holding a sign that read " USA stop supporting Mubarek. We don't want to heat you :(" Yes, emoticon included.

I assume it meant "we don't want to hate you"

[erowe1]

This is one of the underappreciated problems with democracy (or any variations of democracy). It engenders the thinking that the government = the people. So all these people around the world who are victims of crimes committed against them by our government think their enemy is "America" broadly speaking, when their enemy isn't America. Their enemy is the same people our enemy is, which is the federal government. The whole process of the government allowing us to elect certain of its functionaries (through a process under its own supervision and according to its own stipulations) makes it very hard for people to disabuse themselves of the idea that what the government does it does as our legitimate representative.

[puppetmaster]

What does it seem?


We will not be silenced. Whether you are a Christian, whether you are a Muslim, whether you are an Atheist, you will get back your GD rights. And we will have our rights!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvoyfMLO6rU

seems like these people can be subject to manipulation as much as anyone. I don't believe in "accidental" uprisings any more.

[Fredom101]

This is one of the underappreciated problems with democracy (or any variations of democracy). It engenders the thinking that the government = the people. So all these people around the world who are victims of crimes committed against them by our government think their enemy is "America" broadly speaking, when their enemy isn't America. Their enemy is the same people our enemy is, which is the federal government. The whole process of the government allowing us to elect certain of its functionaries (through a process under its own supervision and according to its own stipulations) makes it very hard for people to disabuse themselves of the idea that what the government does it does as our legitimate representative.

Excellent point.
However, in most places around the world, we are actually NOT hated as Americans like some would have you believe. Many people around the world understand that we are not our gov't. In fact, most of the countries I've traveled in, the people have generally LIKED Americans as a whole, while disagreeing with our gov't. The funny thing about Europe is they HATED Bush, and but they LOVE Obama, and they have no idea that the two are one in the same. :( But the good thing about this is that they can't exactly love or hate Americans for their leader, since every 4-8 years it changes, and to them, drastically.

[puppetmaster]

does the US have anything to gain here....perhaps. We need a boost in our economy and war sometimes has this effect.

many ways this could play out ...but is it orchestrated?

[pcosmar]

does the US have anything to gain here....perhaps. We need a boost in our economy and war sometimes has this effect.

many ways this could play out ...but is it orchestrated?

What was the "Gain" from over $60 Billion over the last 30 years?

We are already involved and long have been. The US is directly responsible for Mubarak.

[jmdrake]

seems like these people can be subject to manipulation as much as anyone. I don't believe in "accidental" uprisings any more.

Including the Ron Paul movement?

Anyhow, the bombing of the Copts ties into this somehow. I'm sure of that. I don't know if whoever did the bombing was hoping for the fall of Mubarak, or if they were hoping for a different result and things have spiraled out of control. But it looks like Christians and Muslims are working together in Egypt right now instead of tearing at each other's throats. The "clash of civilizations" isn't turning out the way some might like IMO.

[pcosmar]

Including the Ron Paul movement?

Anyhow, the bombing of the Copts ties into this somehow. I'm sure of that. I don't know if whoever did the bombing was hoping for the fall of Mubarak, or if they were hoping for a different result and things have spiraled out of control. But it looks like Christians and Muslims are working together in Egypt right now instead of tearing at each other's throats. The "clash of civilizations" isn't turning out the way some might like IMO.

There were "Tweets" to the affect that "Security Forces" were behind that bombing.
We will likely have to wait for the Regime Change for the evidence to get out.

[erowe1]

We need a boost in our economy and war sometimes has this effect.


No it doesn't. Ever.

[Kludge]

I'm not up for arguing right not, but a quick note because it was mentioned early on in the thread -- the USG has given a total of $68b to the Egyptian gov't. This may not seem like much if you think of what national changes $68b could bring here in the US, but understand Egypt's GDP is over 30x smaller than ours. $68b of our money to their gov't translates to over $2t worth when taking into account the money they had.