Zeitgeist: Moving Forward Official Movie

[eOs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w

[eOs]

//

[dannno]

Again, this film is full of great information and great ideas.. but it also pins a lot of the problems that they bring up on the free market and money. You should be able to debunk these ideas in your head easily.

The film is STILL worth watching, as you will NOT get these ideas and information elsewhere in such a condensed form.. it's not going to turn you into a Communist.. In fact people in the Venus Project do not support Communism or any form of government. They just support a lot of central planning within their voluntary system that they want to create.

The ending scene is also fantastic, if the film was about the crash of the Federal Reserve and fiat currency, it would be a perfect ending.

[Romulus]

bookmarked for viewing

[jmdrake]

Again, this film is full of great information and great ideas.. but it also pins a lot of the problems that they bring up on the free market and money. You should be able to debunk these ideas in your head easily.

The film is STILL worth watching, as you will NOT get these ideas and information elsewhere in such a condensed form.. it's not going to turn you into a Communist.. In fact people in the Venus Project do not support Communism or any form of government. They just support a lot of central planning within their voluntary system that they want to create.

The ending scene is also fantastic, if the film was about the crash of the Federal Reserve and fiat currency, it would be a perfect ending.

Karl Marx was also for the abolition of money and the eventual abolition of the state. So I guess Marx wasn't a communist?

[PermanentSleep]

This doc is definitely worth watching. They bring up a lot of wonderful points that people in the liberty movement can identify with, and it would seem to me that it wouldn't take much more to move them into accepting the philosophy of liberty in it's entirety as opposed to their current end game of a socialistic technological utopia. Someone should ask them to read Bastiat's writings and Human Action, and then see if they still see their end result as a positive.

[FrankRep]

Karl Marx was also for the abolition of money and the eventual abolition of the state. So I guess Marx wasn't a communist?

eventual abolition of the state?

Karl Marx first wanted the state to own everything. What are the chances the state will actually give it all back to the people after it owned everything? Yeah, not gonna happen. It's a dirty trick played on the people.

[eOs]

the only solution to world government is space travel. bring me your engineers, scientists, inventors...lets get the hell out of here.

[PermanentSleep]

the only solution to world government is space travel. bring me your engineers, scientists, inventors...lets get the hell out of here.

Can I come too?

[dannno]

Karl Marx was also for the abolition of money and the eventual abolition of the state. So I guess Marx wasn't a communist?

They aren't for eventual abolition of the state, they are for no state.

[ClayTrainor]

They aren't for eventual abolition of the state, they are for no state.

I know they say that, but I don't buy it. If they reject the free-market, than how exactly do they plan on calculating the value of resources and distributing them?

Their answer is basically some kind of "computer" will do it. Well... that computer is just another name for a new kind of techno-state, as far as I'm concerned. Who decides how it is programmed? Are they going to allow others to compete with this system, for *gasp* profit?

And DAnnno i respect your posts a lot, and I know you're encouraging me to see this, but I just can't bring myself to do it man. After reading that post you pm'd me, I decided to go and watch the trailer.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYLLFpNn4lM

That crap annoyed me so much, there's no way i'm sitting through 2+ hours of it. Its' extremely intellectually dishonest on the topic of economics. Even if it does present some good information, as I'm sure it does, I do not think the creator of these films is intellectually honest, and I won't trust any of his information until i research it further myself.

[dannno]

I know they say that, but I don't buy it. If they reject the free-market, than how exactly do they plan on calculating the value of resources and distributing them?

Their answer is basically some kind of "computer" will do it. Well... that computer is just another name for a new kind of techno-state, as far as I'm concerned. Who decides how it is programmed? Are they going to allow others to compete with this system, for *gasp* profit?

My roommate is the head of the Zeitgeist group in my town, I've had endless arguments with him. He's very passionate, but does not have the desire to learn economic theory because he doesn't believe in it in the first place.

They reject the free market in that they reject the ideology that individuals should in fact gather all of the wealth and resources that they can for their own benefit, and they reject the system that aides them in doing so.. they aren't trying to limit what humans can and cannot do.

They do not believe in a police force, they don't want to have monopoly on force, they just want to collaborate. So I guess my question to you is, if they setup this society, how will they stop you and me from trading amongst ourselves? They can't. If somebody refuses to consider free market economics, wouldn't you rather them go to a voluntary system of collaboration rather than one initiated through force?




And DAnnno i respect your posts a lot, and I know you're encouraging me to see this, but I just can't bring myself to do it man. After reading that post you pm'd me, I decided to go and watch the trailer.


That crap annoyed me so much, there's no way i'm sitting through 2+ hours of it. Its' extremely intellectually dishonest. Even if it does present some good information, as I'm sure it does, I do not think the creator of these films is intellectually honest, and I won't trust any of his information until i research it further myself.

You're only going to be really upset at about 3% of the sentences in the entire film, maybe less. That is another 97% that you can find completely useful and that you won't find elsewhere. The key is to not let their views frustrate you that you disagree with, because there is a lot in common..

Again, if you're a fan of Molyneux, you're going to really like the information presented in the first section of the film after the intro.. it's a very long section that doesn't talk about free markets or technocommunism or anything.

[Fredom101]

Again, this film is full of great information and great ideas.. but it also pins a lot of the problems that they bring up on the free market and money. You should be able to debunk these ideas in your head easily.

The film is STILL worth watching, as you will NOT get these ideas and information elsewhere in such a condensed form.. it's not going to turn you into a Communist.. In fact people in the Venus Project do not support Communism or any form of government. They just support a lot of central planning within their voluntary system that they want to create.

The ending scene is also fantastic, if the film was about the crash of the Federal Reserve and fiat currency, it would be a perfect ending.

They are supporting communism almost to the T, despite what PJ claims.
"There's no government in our society but the Venus Project will make all decisions!"
Nuts-o.

Unless, he is okay with us having our free market society while he runs his no-currency lunacy colony. I'm okay with that.

[Vessol]

Unless, he is okay with us having our free market society while he runs his no-currency lunacy colony. I'm okay with that.

Until this computer that centrally plans everything for them and allocates all their resources, turns out to be a complete shitpile and they decide to "allocate" their resources from those who live in the free market society.

[dannno]

Unless, he is okay with us having our free market society while he runs his no-currency lunacy colony. I'm okay with that.

How are they going to stop you if they don't plan on having a police force?

They believe that people will voluntarily join their system because they believe it will be better..

If the systems of control were taken out, we could start a voluntary society with a monetary system. Ultimately we will outperform them, we will be utilizing a lot of the same technology and they will ultimately want to join us.

[dannno]

Until this computer that centrally plans everything for them and allocates all their resources, turns out to be a complete shitpile and they decide to "allocate" their resources from those who live in the free market society.

Protect your land... what are they gonna do? They don't even believe in guns.

[Fredom101]

How are they going to stop you if they don't plan on having a police force?

They believe that people will voluntarily join their system because they believe it will be better..

If the systems of control were taken out, we could start a voluntary society with a monetary system. Ultimately we will outperform them, we will be utilizing a lot of the same technology and they will ultimately want to join us.

Good points. But it seems that PJ is advocating that we ALL get rid of the idea of currency and subscribe to his machine-based Venus Project society.

[dannno]

Good points. But it seems as if PJ is advocating that we ALL get rid of the idea of currency and subscribe to his machine-based Venus Project society.

Yep, he's advocating it because he believes he can get enough people to shed their old ideas and latch onto this movement, create a tipping point, take down the current systems of control, collaborate and build a better society where people will want to live..because they believe they can build a better society that way and for those people who don't buy into it right away will see everybody else doing so well that they will choose to join.

[emazur]

The youtube description says:

A Free DVD Torrent of the full 2 hr and 42 min film in 30 languages is also made available through the main website [below], with instructions on how one can download and burn the movie to DVD themselves. His other films are also freely available in this format.

Website:
www.zeitgeistmovingforward.com
www.zeitgeistmovie.com

but I can't find the damn torrent anywhere so I'm just downloading it from youtube. I've found unofficial torrents with the youtube flv but there's not much point in that

[dannno]

I'm not saying I want the Zeitgeist movement to get really big and take down the systems of control, although that in and of itself could potentially benefit us.. I'd rather see people latch onto the idea of freedom and take down the systems of control that way.

What I'm saying is that this movement, as it is currently defined, isn't terribly threatening to us. They are very anti-establishment, which gets most people half way there, and it isn't much of a leap to explain how the problems as they define them are actually caused by the power structure and not money or free markets..

But I do think the film contains a lot of valuable information unrelated to free markets and central planning that could benefit our movement by understanding.

[ClayTrainor]

I'm not saying I want the Zeitgeist movement to get really big and take down the systems of control, although that in and of itself could potentially benefit us.. I'd rather see people latch onto the idea of freedom and take down the systems of control that way.

Without free-markets, it's just a new control mechanism.



What I'm saying is that this movement, as it is currently defined, isn't terribly threatening to us. They are very anti-establishment, which gets most people half way there, and it isn't much of a leap to explain how the problems as they define them are actually caused by the power structure and not money or free markets..


They aren't a threat, they are a joke. They have no interest in understanding economics, while they preach a "resource based economy". It's the equivalent of someone trying to build a rocket to the moon, without understanding the fundamentals of math or physics.



But I do think the film contains a lot of valuable information unrelated to free markets and central planning that could benefit our movement by understanding.

I don't doubt it, but based on the intellectual honesty of the author, I will not trust that information to be accurate until i do further research. I truly feel like watching this will be nothing but a waste of time, but because of you dannno, I may just take the time to do so. :)

[ClayTrainor]

My roommate is the head of the Zeitgeist group in my town, I've had endless arguments with him. He's very passionate, but does not have the desire to learn economic theory because he doesn't believe in it in the first place.

I realize that zeitgeist people have no interest in economic theory, but yet they go around criticizing economics and preaching a "resource based economy".

[dannno]

Without free-markets, it's just a new control mechanism.

What is the mechanism by which they control you?






I don't doubt it, but based on the intellectual honesty of the author, I will not trust that information to be accurate until i do further research. I truly feel like watching this will be nothing but a waste of time, but because of you dannno, I may just take the time to do so. :)

Most of the information has nothing to do with free markets, economics, etc.. it is about human nature and why the system we have today is so bad.. and a loto f that stuff is spot on. They bring up items related to the broken window theory, like about how the establishment uses disease to increase profits.. how the behaviors that the system we have induced increases profits for the prison industrial complex.. all things that we are able to understand is the fault of the control mechanism. They simply extend that out and say that the control mechanism exists in the first place due to profit and money, so we should voluntarily stop using it to stop the control mechanism. If they were talking about fiat currency rather than ALL goods that have value and can be exchanged, they would be right on this point too. They just don't understand how voluntary exchanges can benefit both parties, they don't understand the zero sum fallacy..

They have a collectivist mindset, but not the kind that says the collective should sacrifice the individual for the collective, the kind that says the individual should choose to educate themselves about the environment and the limitations of our planet, and accordingly sacrifice for the collective, and they believe this sacrifice will be minimal as compared to the current system where we sacrifice a lot of our work toward the system of control, and that the sacrifice will lead to a greater pay off with a more enjoyable life experience.

I have tried to ingrain that stuff about being voluntary into my roommate's head since he isn't keen on sitting down and understanding economics. It's something true about the movement, but that isn't discussed enough within it. I am trying to get them, if they won't learn economics, to learn about the importance of this all being voluntary and to continue with that approach.

[ClayTrainor]

What is the mechanism by which they control you?

Whatever they want to replace free-market economics with.

[dannno]

Whatever they want to replace free-market economics with.

A voluntary centrally planned economy where people aren't forced to participate and can in fact engage in free market economics outside of their system? In fact, I'll bet people end up engaging in free market economics within their system and benefit. It would be quite the irony.

Their goal is to make a society that people WANT to join, voluntarily. They don't understand that central economic planning is inefficient and will not work. They aren't going to have armies or police forces to force people to stay.

[jmdrake]

eventual abolition of the state?

Karl Marx first wanted the state to own everything. What are the chances the state will actually give it all back to the people after it owned everything? Yeah, not gonna happen. It's a dirty trick played on the people.

Ummm...yeah. I know it's a trick. That's kind of what I was getting at.


They aren't for eventual abolition of the state, they are for no state.

Hey Dannno. You and I agree on most things and there are parts of ZG where we have agreement. We we disagree (maybe) is that here I'm a bit more conspiratorial than you. I think your roommate is probably an honorable, though misguided man. But I think the people pushing ZG are not. Note that I'm not even talking about the filmmakers here. I'm talking about the people promoting the film. I mentioned this in the other thread, but when ZG first became popular did you not notice how none of the tricks were played against it like those played against other 9/11 truth films to lower their YouTube and Google Video standings? The # of viewings were never reduced? It was never knocked off the front page? And now it's getting this mega promotion? Why? Someone is spending a lot of money to make these "independent" films a success. Who and why?

Here's my nightmare scenario. The ZG movement reaches a "critical mass" where they have a lot of members who can "effect change", but they aren't strong enough to take over the world. Maybe the economic collapse becomes really bad and people join. But the movement never works. It can't because it's not economically sound. Instead of admitting that, the "leaders" begin blaming those who don't join the movement for its failure. A new leader emerges, maybe a pseudo religious figure, that announces a new plan to "get enough people on board for this to work". At first it's more of the same "educational" movement. The pseudo religious "theosophical" part becomes pushed harder. Eventually the movement splits between the peaceful wing and the "let's make this happen by any means necessary" wing. You have a group of true believers who think that can "fix the world" if only those "greedy capitalists" weren't standing in their way.

Far fetched? Maybe. But the pseudo religious nature of ZG makes me think that it's not.

[Carehn]

This movie is simply terrible. Well made but horrible in its philosophy. So much they leave out. Such as basic human "needs" being met. with no talk about how to meet them or even a connection to meeting these "needs" and the evil capitalism as this film seems to portray.

We do have problems today. the 1st movie was good at pointing out some. But the solution given would not fix them. It would most likely expand on them. The root of the problems given are misguided.

At one point some guy even makes the statement that John Lock created property. I thought he just put into words the idea of property that has existed farther back then historical sight goes.

[QueenB4Liberty]

I thought it was a great movie. I don't ever see a resource based economy happening. But everything else was simply fascinating.

[Vessol]

I'm watching the movie right now. At the intro scene.

I definitely agree. Living life for the sole reason of acquiring wealth is useless and unfulfilling. However, I highly doubt that the VAST majority of those on these forums or those advocating a free market, do so because they desire vast piles of wealth.

The reason I, and so many others support a free market is because it is the only economic system that guarantee's liberty and freedom.

Edit: BTW, old guy narrator, no one ever thought the Earth was flat. I know it's nitpicking, but seriously, as a wannabe historian, I really hate when people say that "well people once thought the world was flat"

Edit2: I was half expecting the old dude, after he said "This shit's got to go" to pull out a machine gun and start shooting wildly.

[Carehn]

Its those crazy profit seeking workaholics that produce (though not directly) the vast majority of wealth. Just because they do it by investing in good ideas and or telling other people of lesser mind how more efficiently to work is irrelevant. Would you rather have all the CEOs start carving fishing poles with there own hands? Any unthinking human can make a fishing pole but only some have the drive or addiction if you will to run a massive comp.

The problems are caused when you have these CEO types use the government club to get what they want. Be it through subsidies or regulating smaller competition out of the market.

This flick talks about waist. The most efficient economy you can ask for is a totally free market. Yet you may not need a TV to live, but an efficient life may not be what the individual is looking for. What everyone is looking for is happiness. This means different things for everyone and be it Bush telling me happiness for me is spreading democracy or the EPA telling me happiness is a green life, OR THIS MOVIE telling me happiness should be living for others and recourses. Its nun of theirs to make such a decision for me.

Its good to know that so many people with so many different and polar ideas are looking to rule my life. I will never be lacking in that i guess.

Why must all movies start of with a problem, then advance class struggle, Then suggest my right to choose is the problem? I get sick of it some times.

[EndDaFed]

The Venus Project is akin to the open source movement. It's more like an open source society the more I read about it. They already have engineers and scientists working on the first order of open source hardware. Check it out it's neat stuff.
http://vimeo.com/16106427
http://openfarmtech.org/wiki/

[Vessol]

Wow..did they really just state that the "invisible hand is just god". That's not what Adam Smith meant.

And again..warping the meaning of money. Instead of a good to facilitate trade, it's a arbitrary creation that has no basis in productivity.

I'm trying to watch this, but it's getting painful when they talk about economics.

[ClayTrainor]

Wow..did they really just state that the "invisible hand is just god". That's not what Adam Smith meant.

And again..warping the meaning of money. Instead of a good to facilitate trade, it's a arbitrary creation that has no basis in productivity.

I'm trying to watch this, but it's getting painful when they talk about economics.

lol I couldn't even get through the 5 minute trailer. Too irritating to listen to.

I don't feel I can trust any of his other points, based on how embarrassing the economic arguments are.

[Vessol]

lol I couldn't even get through the 5 minute trailer. Too irritating to listen to.

I don't feel I can trust any of his other points, based on how embarrassing the economic arguments are.

The part on child abuse was particularly good IMO. He almost sounded like Stef, saying how violence isn't biological.

Now they're talking about how an economy has to be about efficiency and lack of waste, not about consumption and demand.

I can kind of emphasize with his point on planned obsolescence. The problem is, that many products are inherantly obsolescent in a market because technology develops. What materials does he propose be made that would make such products that would never break down for cars or computers? Also, many companies counter this by offering lifelong guarantee's on their products such as Kirby Vacuums.

[dannno]

The part on child abuse was particularly good IMO. He almost sounded like Stef, saying how violence isn't biological.



Yes, the interviews with the scientists on this topic was really educational.. it was really the best part of the film, tho the intro was kinda fun (I agree most people who believe in free markets do so NOT because they want vast piles of wealth.. we know it doesn't bring true happiness.. so it's still an interesting intro I think), there is some cool technology they always like to talk about, and you will LOVE the end, if you can pretend it's about the Federal Reserve and fiat currency..

[dannno]

A couple posts by me on this topic at the top worth reading:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?276830-Phenomenal-New-Video-please-watch....-The-State-of-the-Statists!/page4

[Fredom101]

Ok, I watched the first 45 minutes of it. The part on child abuse was interesting. But then they started going insane with their conclusions. The one professor said that individualism is the source of our problems, and the US is a very individualistic country! Hahahaha. We are so collectivist it's ridiculous how blind and out of touch that guy is.

Then, another professor came on and started talking about Adam Smith. He actually said that the "invisible hand" is "God", and he cherry picked a quote from Smith's book about children dying, and saying that Adam Smith thinks GOD WANTS TO KILL CHILDREN! And this is all through the free market of course! At this point, I could not watch any more. Sorry, I might go back to it later but my patience ran out!

[EndDaFed]

Karl Marx was also for the abolition of money and the eventual abolition of the state. So I guess Marx wasn't a communist?

I know it's scary. I also heard that Marx had hair. That must mean that 99% of the population are Mao worshipers.

[dannno]

Ok, I watched the first 45 minutes of it. The part on child abuse was interesting. But then they started going insane with their conclusions. The one professor said that individualism is the source of our problems, and the US is a very individualistic country! Hahahaha. We are so collectivist it's ridiculous how blind and out of touch that guy is.

Then, another professor came on and started talking about Adam Smith. He actually said that the "invisible hand" is "God", and he cherry picked a quote from Smith's book about children dying, and saying that Adam Smith thinks GOD WANTS TO KILL CHILDREN! And this is all through the free market of course! At this point, I could not watch any more. Sorry, I might go back to it later but my patience ran out!

I know it's frustrating, but see how easily debunkable that stuff is tho?

I recommend watching the rest, if nothing else for the ending scene (just pretend it's a movie about fiat currency/Fed).. but there's some more pretty cool gems in there in between.

[Fredom101]

Don't forget, Adam Smith wants God to kill children! That was the goofiest shit I ever heard and stopped me from viewing any more.

[Fredom101]

I think I'll just skip to the end and avoid all the nonsense!

[Orgoonian]

Don't forget, Adam Smith wants God to kill children! That was the goofiest shit I ever heard and stopped me from viewing any more.

I don't believe that is what was being said.

I watched the movie twice,and had to pause several times because my pre conceived notions were being assaulted. I don't buy into all of it,but overall,i enjoyed the mind exercise this film produced.
Thanks for posting OP.

[teacherone]

30 mins in and it's still some russian guy talking about environmental factors affecting human development.

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/wtf_is_this_shit2.jpg

what's the point of the movie again?

[dannno]

I think I'll just skip to the end and avoid all the nonsense!

It's not all nonsense.

They have this cool 3D printer machine that can make a LOT of shit, including 3D printer machines. Plenty of interesting tidbits.

[teacherone]

It's not all nonsense.

They have this cool 3D printer machine that can make a LOT of shit, including 3D printer machines. Plenty of interesting tidbits.

you're joking right?

think i'll watch terminator instead.

[dannno]

you're joking right?

think i'll watch terminator instead.

That would be your loss..

[teacherone]

That would be your loss..

same idea. better graphics.

[dannno]

same idea. better graphics.

That was an example of a two minute segment in a movie that is over two hours long..

[teacherone]

That was an example of a two minute segment in a movie that is over two hours long..

but that's the solution right.

after wrinkled russian scientist finishes his hour long spiel about environment making us all addicts to money we are a told that self-replicating printers will be our saviours.

[jmdrake]

I know it's scary. I also heard that Marx had hair. That must mean that 99% of the population are Mao worshipers.
rt
:rolleyes: Was having hair part of the Marx platform? If yes then you have a point. If no then you are blowing smoke. From everything I've seen the only part of the Marx agenda that is missing from the Zeitgeist agenda is the dictatorship of the proletariat. But they don't need that because they have their pseudo religion (theosophy) to fill the power vacuum needed to enforce their version of state (excuse me "technocracy") allocation of resources.

[dannno]

but that's the solution right.

after wrinkled russian scientist finishes his hour long spiel about environment making us all addicts to money we are a told that self-replicating printers will be our saviours.

No, I just think it sounds like great technology that is likely being held back by regulations and intellectual property laws.

[PermanentSleep]

you're joking right?

think i'll watch terminator instead.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkhInqdNeFQ

http://store.makerbot.com/makerbot-thing-o-matic.html

[teacherone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkhInqdNeFQ

http://store.makerbot.com/makerbot-thing-o-matic.html

yes...but does it self replicate?

[PermanentSleep]

I was just pointing out that the 3d printer does in fact exist. To the other half of his quote, does it self replicate? Not yet...but the future possibilities of this technology are amazing.

[dannno]

I was just pointing out that the 3d printer does in fact exist. To the other half of his quote, does it self replicate? Not yet...but the future possibilities of this technology are amazing.

There's one in zeitgeist that makes all or almost all of the pieces required to replicate.

Maybe that's the key, make a machine that can ALMOST completely replicate itself less one small piece or step that it cannot. Maybe an inexpensive chip or something.

[jabf2006]

The creators of the film do not understand the difference between "money" and "fiat currency" and equate Mises to Keynes. Therefore it's retarded.

[JackieDan]

The Zeitgeist theory will never work, period.

[aravoth]

The creators of the film do not understand the difference between "money" and "fiat currency" and equate Mises to Keynes. Therefore it's retarded.

Yeah, I was scratching my head when Peter Joseph pulled that out of his ass. I understand completely why he, and everyone else in that movement hate our current economic model so much, but Mises certainly has nothing to do with it. In fact Mises could be considered to be a diametric opposite of Keynes.

[IceForester]

The creators of the film do not understand the difference between "money" and "fiat currency" and equate Mises to Keynes. Therefore it's retarded.


That's so true. The other thing I hate is when atheist equate Muslim Shism A scholar with his opposite Muslim Shism X scholar, what fools, how retarded. How can anyone that has not read the entire Koran and that has not read and studied for years the mountain of dogmatic litterature (based on the same premise), reject it? Clearly Mullah MohaMises McSharia, who has spent his entire life delving in the scriptures would not do so if it was crap and if there were no Halla(and magical flying horses) and would know more about the religion's validity as an expert than someone that hasnt even read the Koran cover to cover? How ignorant are these atheists I tell you, can you beleive it?



The Zeitgeist theory will never work, period.


I agree. Its been shown throughout history as far back as the times when people thought the earth was flat, bled themselves as a cure, and prayed the gods for the sun to return during eclypses and had the good old money system, the pinnacle of human achievement, that something other than what was used back then will never work, period. :D

[Travlyr]

Yep, he's advocating it because he believes he can get enough people to shed their old ideas and latch onto this movement, create a tipping point, take down the current systems of control, collaborate and build a better society where people will want to live..because they believe they can build a better society that way and for those people who don't buy into it right away will see everybody else doing so well that they will choose to join.

It seems that they do have quite a bit of support world-wide: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

A couple of interesting videos:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43sUEFcD4Ro



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2ahWHbUVVU

[Sentient Void]

A Rothschild and Clinton, huh? Haha - why am I not surprised?

[Travlyr]

A Rothschild and Clinton, huh? Haha - why am I not surprised?

Amazing huh? lulz... they probably are the only ones rich enough to finance a world of no money... lol... as long as they control the resources.

[emazur]

I knew clinton couldn't possibly haven anything to do w/ Zeitgeist. First, there was no Zeitgeist movement back in '07, and second there's no way he would show up to support a movie that was anti-christian, anti-Fed, w/ 9/11 conspiracy theories. Third, I doubt the Zeitgeist people want anything to do w/ him. That was a google event:
http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/zeitgeist2007/

[Romulus]

I just watched the movie.... to everyone here, challenge yourself to watch it. There is a lot of useful and provoking information.

However, there is a critical flaw: They clearly counterdict themselves. The correctly identify human behavior as the problem in parenting, child development and so on, yet when it comes to a free market system, they blame it instead of human behavior! It's not the system itself that is flawed, like drugs, money, guns or anything else. It's the use and abuse by the controllers and the users. How they fail on this point is beyond me.

Despite that, there is a lot of common ground shared and I found it interesting and worth my time. The one line that sticks: Mother Nature is a dictator. And there is some truth to that, we are all connected and dependent to survive.

Its makes a valid point that we must deal with being able to sustain life. Fractional reserve banking, excessive consumption and destruction is not sustainable and we will be forced to deal with that one way or another. And that means dealing with human nature that wants to control those resources. So that struggle will never end, because human nature does not change - its survival.

So no matter what solution they propose, I can not completely accept it because there will always be someone to want to take advantage of any resource no matter what the system. I guess their theory goes back to the beginning that we can successfully eliminate that negative aspect human behavior, but I reject it. Its a natural survival instinct, like a web is to a spider.

But that begs the question - Could evolution eliminate or alter the web from the spider given certain circumstances? It's a question and situation that deserves to be considered at least.

[ClayTrainor]

I just watched the movie.... to everyone here, challenge yourself to watch it. There is a lot of useful and provoking information.

Alright... alright...fine. That's enough recommendations from people i trust.. I'll be sure to do it soon.... reluctantly :):p


However, there is a critical flaw: They clearly counterdict themselves. The correctly identify human behavior as the problem in parenting, child development and so on, yet when it comes to a free market system, they blame it instead of human behavior! It's not the system itself that is flawed, like drugs, money, guns or anything else. It's the use and abuse by the controllers and the users. How they fail on this point is beyond me.

Despite that, there is a lot of common ground shared and I found it interesting and worth my time. The one line that sticks: Mother Nature is a dictator. And there is some truth to that, we are all connected and dependent to survive.

Its makes a valid point that we must deal with being able to sustain life. Fractional reserve banking, excessive consumption and destruction is not sustainable and we will be forced to deal with that one way or another. And that means dealing with human nature that wants to control those resources. So that struggle will never end, because human nature does not change - its survival.

So no matter what solution they propose, I fail to accept it because there will always be someone to want to take advantage of any resource no matter what the system.

Thanks for your review!

[emazur]

I've watched it for 2 hours so far, and as a fan of the previous Zeitgeists, I'm extremely disappointed. The previous Zeitgeists brought hard-hitting info that you just don't normally come across. Even though they had parts that were inaccurate or questionable, it was always thought provoking. They had interesting special effects and music to boot.

The first hour is mildly interesting about the need for human nurture, but it's the kind of stuff I'd expect from the Discovery Channel or an evening PBS special, not from Zeitgeist which previously addressed controversial topics like religion, 9/11, and the Fed. Much of the second hour consisted of attacks on the free market and basically promoted communism without using that word. They also used that tired old argument about how people are too stupid to make their own decisions and just go where advertisers lead them. The rest was on their utopian Venus Project which they won't even come close to accomplishing. Let's see them successfully build it on a small scale in just 1 freakin' small village, then we'll talk.

I'll watch the remaining 40 minutes tomorrow but I'm not expecting much.

[Romulus]

I've watched it for 2 hours so far, and as a fan of the previous Zeitgeists, I'm extremely disappointed. The previous Zeitgeists brought hard-hitting info that you just don't normally come across. Even though they had parts that were inaccurate or questionable, it was always thought provoking. They had interesting special effects and music to boot.

The first hour is mildly interesting about the need for human nurture, but it's the kind of stuff I'd expect from the Discovery Channel or an evening PBS special, not from Zeitgeist which previously addressed controversial topics like religion, 9/11, and the Fed. Much of the second hour consisted of attacks on the free market and basically promoted communism without using that word. They also used that tired old argument about how people are too stupid to make their own decisions and just go where advertisers lead them. The rest was on their utopian Venus Project which they won't even come close to accomplishing. Let's see them successfully build it on a small scale in just 1 freakin' small village, then we'll talk.

I'll watch the remaining 40 minutes tomorrow but I'm not expecting much.

Look at reality.. it's true in many ways. But again, this is not a flaw in the system, but our human behavior, directly linked to how we are nurtured that lead to us being influenced by shallow advertising and materialism.

Ironically with their solutions they reject the 'utopian' label but to me its their concept. The last 40mins gives a good pitch for it. Keep in mind those society sort of exist (Amish)...

And it expands with some pretty amazing technology.. the 3D self replicating printer for one.. how cool is that! So the idea of responsible, self sustaining life could be a possibility in 100-200 years... is its likely? Probably not, but it is possible.

[jmdrake]

There's one in zeitgeist that makes all or almost all of the pieces required to replicate.

Maybe that's the key, make a machine that can ALMOST completely replicate itself less one small piece or step that it cannot. Maybe an inexpensive chip or something.

The key to avoiding the "grey goo" problem? For those unfamiliar to it....

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html?pg=6&topic=&topic_set=
As Drexler explained:

"Plants" with "leaves" no more efficient than today's solar cells could out-compete real plants, crowding the biosphere with an inedible foliage. Tough omnivorous "bacteria" could out-compete real bacteria: They could spread like blowing pollen, replicate swiftly, and reduce the biosphere to dust in a matter of days. Dangerous replicators could easily be too tough, small, and rapidly spreading to stop - at least if we make no preparation. We have trouble enough controlling viruses and fruit flies.

Among the cognoscenti of nanotechnology, this threat has become known as the "gray goo problem." Though masses of uncontrolled replicators need not be gray or gooey, the term "gray goo" emphasizes that replicators able to obliterate life might be less inspiring than a single species of crabgrass. They might be superior in an evolutionary sense, but this need not make them valuable.

The gray goo threat makes one thing perfectly clear: We cannot afford certain kinds of accidents with replicating assemblers.

Gray goo would surely be a depressing ending to our human adventure on Earth, far worse than mere fire or ice, and one that could stem from a simple laboratory accident.6 Oops.


That said, a computer smart enough to figure out all of man's problems would likely figure out the "missing chip" too.

But here's the part that worries me the most. From the same Bill Joy article:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html
On the other hand it is possible that human control over the machines may be retained. In that case the average man may have control over certain private machines of his own, such as his car or his personal computer, but control over large systems of machines will be in the hands of a tiny elite - just as it is today, but with two differences. Due to improved techniques the elite will have greater control over the masses; and because human work will no longer be necessary the masses will be superfluous, a useless burden on the system. If the elite is ruthless they may simply decide to exterminate the mass of humanity. If they are humane they may use propaganda or other psychological or biological techniques to reduce the birth rate until the mass of humanity becomes extinct, leaving the world to the elite. Or, if the elite consists of soft-hearted liberals, they may decide to play the role of good shepherds to the rest of the human race. They will see to it that everyone's physical needs are satisfied, that all children are raised under psychologically hygienic conditions, that everyone has a wholesome hobby to keep him busy, and that anyone who may become dissatisfied undergoes "treatment" to cure his "problem." Of course, life will be so purposeless that people will have to be biologically or psychologically engineered either to remove their need for the power process or make them "sublimate" their drive for power into some harmless hobby. [b]These engineered human beings may be happy in such a society, but they will most certainly not be free. They will have been reduced to the status of domestic animals.

Oh yeah, and this article is from 2000. Anyone who things this "zeitgeist movement" wasn't around in 2007 is just kidding themselves. This movement predated the films by a long shot.

[jmdrake]

I knew clinton couldn't possibly haven anything to do w/ Zeitgeist. First, there was no Zeitgeist movement back in '07, and second there's no way he would show up to support a movie that was anti-christian, anti-Fed, w/ 9/11 conspiracy theories. Third, I doubt the Zeitgeist people want anything to do w/ him. That was a google event:
http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/zeitgeist2007/

Believing that the Zeitgeist movement didn't start until the movies is like believing the "new world order" didn't exist until George Bush talked about it. All of the ideas in the so called "Venus project" were openly being discussed as far back as 2000. Read the Bill Joy article Why the future doesn't need us (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html?pg=2&topic=&topic_set=) to understand the dark side of technocracy.

[Feeding the Abscess]

Believing that the Zeitgeist movement didn't start until the movies is like believing the "new world order" didn't exist until George Bush talked about it. All of the ideas in the so called "Venus project" were openly being discussed as far back as 2000. Read the Bill Joy article Why the future doesn't need us (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html?pg=2&topic=&topic_set=) to understand the dark side of technocracy.

Fine and dandy, but that Clinton clip was a Google event, not a technocratic event.

[Travlyr]

Fine and dandy, but that Clinton clip was a Google event, not a technocratic event.

That is one hell of a slip-up. The Google event organizers should have googled the word Zeitgeist before naming the event if they did not want to be associated with the Zeitgeist movement, don't you think?

[emazur]

That is one hell of a slip-up. The Google event organizers should have googled the word Zeitgeist before naming the event if they did not want to be associated with the Zeitgeist movement, don't you think?

The first Zeitgeist movie wasn't released until 2007 if I recall, and there was no Zeitgeist movement. Besides, it's not just the name of a movie, zeitgeist I think translates to "sign of the times"

[sam9657]

The whole premise that automation kills jobs is incorrect. Automation simply re-balances and increases everyone's standard of living.

It is the government that does the job killing by making very expensive to hire workers.

[mport1]

Seems pretty ridiculous like most parts of their other films. Don't know if this has been posted yet in this thread but Stefan Molyneux just put out a great review of it calling out a lot of stuff they get wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg5K0...&feature=feedu

[dannno]

It seems that they do have quite a bit of support world-wide: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

A couple of interesting videos:

[CENTER]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43sUEFcD4Ro



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA...


I'm sorry, but that doesn't have anything to do with the film or the movement..

[dannno]

Seems pretty ridiculous like most parts of their other films. Don't know if this has been posted yet in this thread but Stefan Molyneux just put out a great review of it calling out a lot of stuff they get wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg5K0...&feature=feedu

Wow, I couldn't agree more!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg5K07c72Tw

He actually says at the end he supports the Zeitgeist movement, if they want to go try their utopian model in a free society, he'd love to be proven wrong that it will be a miserable failure.

[Travlyr]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't have anything to do with the film or the movement..
Perhaps you are right. I just noticed many parallels in the videos that I found interesting, such as the children, the environment, and a search for meeting global challenges.

Also, the Zeitgeist movement is curiously a fast moving world-wide movement, and that is not inexpensive. Do you know who is funding it?
http://www.thevenusproject.com/blog/

[Travlyr]

It is nice to discover that I'm not the only one who recognized a possible globalist movement connection with Zeitgeist. Whether it is true, or not, I don't yet know, but parallels are present. Follow the money. World wide promotion is expensive. Who is financing this movement? $5 DVD's and free YouTubes? Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Fundamentals of individual liberty include: property rights, natural rights, and justice. Prosperity comes from production not consumption. All wealth comes from the earth's resources (mine it, grow it, or sew it), so whoever owns/controls the land can become wealthy. Individual wealth promotes liberty, security, and happiness. Collective wealth (in the hands of a few elite) promote enslavement.

The Zeitgeist movement is no friend of liberty. The movement rejects individual property rights, self-protection of gun ownership, and individual wealth while they ensnare liberty loving individuals by embracing statelessness, godlessness, NAP, and environmental considerations. The Zeitgeist movement seems synonymous with Agenda 21 (http://www.unep.org/Documents.Multilingual/Default.asp?DocumentID=52&ArticleID=52&l=en).



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPd68VKvlhc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5GqxVPGhSg

I am looking forward to Ron Paul's new book - "Liberty Defined (http://www.amazon.com/Liberty-Defined-Essential-Issues-Freedom/dp/145550145X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1296409822&sr=8-1)"

[jmdrake]

Fine and dandy, but that Clinton clip was a Google event, not a technocratic event.

Why do you think Google and technocracy are mutually exclusive? Almost every other month there is some "Google is on on the conspiracy" thread.

[jmdrake]

Thank you for posting this! Those are some very thought provoking videos. I've been suspicious of ZG ever since ZG part 1. And it's not just because it attacks Christianity. It's because it attacks Christianity and tries to tie Christianity into 9/11 and the Federal reserve. Oh, I know the ZG proponents will say that's not the case, but it is. Either the "luciferians" are behind the NWO and 9/11 or they aren't. If they are then it makes perfect sense for them to support a movie that in part 1 links Christianity to the NWO and 9/11 and then in the addendum offers their own religion as the "solution".


It is nice to discover that I'm not the only one who recognized a possible globalist movement connection with Zeitgeist. Whether it is true, or not, I don't yet know, but parallels are present. Follow the money. World wide promotion is expensive. Who is financing this movement? $5 DVD's and free YouTubes? Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Fundamentals of individual liberty include: property rights, natural rights, and justice. Prosperity comes from production not consumption. All wealth comes from the earth's resources (mine it, grow it, or sew it), so whoever owns/controls the land can become wealthy. Individual wealth promotes liberty, security, and happiness. Collective wealth (in the hands of a few elite) promote enslavement.

The Zeitgeist movement is no friend of liberty. The movement rejects individual property rights, self-protection of gun ownership, and individual wealth while they ensnare liberty loving individuals by embracing statelessness, godlessness, NAP, and environmental considerations. The Zeitgeist movement seems synonymous with Agenda 21 (http://www.unep.org/Documents.Multilingual/Default.asp?DocumentID=52&ArticleID=52&l=en).



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPd68VKvlhc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5GqxVPGhSg

I am looking forward to Ron Paul's new book - "Liberty Defined (http://www.amazon.com/Liberty-Defined-Essential-Issues-Freedom/dp/145550145X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1296409822&sr=8-1)"

[devil21]

I turned it off after about 10 minutes. BOOOOOOOORING

The first was very entertaining, the second was entertaining but obviously pushing an anti-liberty agenda, but this third one lost me after 5 minutes.

[Fredom101]

I'm literally TRYING to get through this movie but it is very painful! Peter Joseph LOVES central planning! As if HE and Jaques Fresco can possibly know how things should be "run" for 8 billion people, or whatever.

[Romulus]

Thank you for posting this! Those are some very thought provoking videos. I've been suspicious of ZG ever since ZG part 1. And it's not just because it attacks Christianity. It's because it attacks Christianity and tries to tie Christianity into 9/11 and the Federal reserve. Oh, I know the ZG proponents will say that's not the case, but it is. Either the "luciferians" are behind the NWO and 9/11 or they aren't. If they are then it makes perfect sense for them to support a movie that in part 1 links Christianity to the NWO and 9/11 and then in the addendum offers their own religion as the "solution".

I didn't get that at all from ZG one. It clearly explains how religion is mind control. 9/11 is emotional/patriotic control and the federal reserve is about physical control (debt = slavery). So no, ZG 1 is not blaming Christianity for all the worlds problems. It simply explains MAN MADE systems of control that we are subjected to.

[jmdrake]

I didn't get that at all from ZG one. It clearly explains how religion is mind control. 9/11 is emotional/patriotic control and the federal reserve is about physical control (debt = slavery). So no, ZG 1 is not blaming Christianity for all the worlds problems. It simply explains MAN MADE systems of control that we are subjected to.

You may not have "gotten that", but that just shows how sophisticated the subliminal mind control in ZG part 1 is. The best mind control is the kind that leaves the victim unaware that it has happened. In the first few minutes of ZG part 1 it says "What do 9/11, the federal reserve and Christianity have in common"? On, and as for it explaining how Christianity is "man made" don't make me laugh. Their evidence on that is 100% bogus.

Here's the deal. The same group that was behind 9/11 and behind the federal reserve is behind the ZG films. You are being conditioned to reject two truly man made systems (the post 9/11 police state and the fiat monetary system), and one debatable man made system (if Christianity is "man made" ZG part 1 certainly did not make the case) and accept a new world order man made system. After all this control grid they're talking about will not "evolve" from a pile of microchips and wire. It will be made by man and it will be controlled by man. And the glue that will hold it together is the same Luciferian religious system that many of us in the liberty movement have been fighting against.

[dannno]

I turned it off after about 10 minutes. BOOOOOOOORING

The first was very entertaining, the second was entertaining but obviously pushing an anti-liberty agenda, but this third one lost me after 5 minutes.

lol, that's not a good excuse, you just weren't in the mood to watch a documentary. Plus the intro isn't even boring.

I thought the intro was great.. I think it's already been discussed that just because we should be free to amass great amounts of property and wealth doesn't mean that it will make us happy, I don't recall much from the beginning that is anti-liberty.

[dannno]

In the first few minutes of ZG part 1 it says "What do 9/11, the federal reserve and Christianity have in common"?

I'm pretty sure it doesn't mention the Federal Reserve or 9/11 until the first section is over.. are you sure you didn't get that line from the first few minutes of a Debunking Zeitgeist youtube?

[socialvirus]

I can totally agree w/ the last few expressed sentiments. The animated intro is EXTREMELY engaging, but the Q and A with the panelists gets REALLY boring. I'm actually happy that is IS so boring because it is overtly against the family, private property, and freedom in many ways.

Some of the points I DO agree with though, filling up landfills with tons of computers they keep making new ones of: Computers are likely one of the most free market areas of commerce.

Peter Joseph also said he was for a one child policy.

[dannno]

Peter Joseph also said he was for a one child policy.

Really?!

Where is that?

[Romulus]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't mention the Federal Reserve or 9/11 until the first section is over.. are you sure you didn't get that line from the first few minutes of a Debunking Zeitgeist youtube?

Yeah, I don't remember that line either... people get so worked up over the first part that I think they make those notions up in their mind. In fact I've heard from a lot of people that they didnt even understand what Religion, 9/11 and the FR had to do with each other. They were confused... Its not a blame all on Christianity and its not even only about Christianity, its about religion.

[Travlyr]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't mention the Federal Reserve or 9/11 until the first section is over.. are you sure you didn't get that line from the first few minutes of a Debunking Zeitgeist youtube?

6:30 into the first movie for the Holy Bible and 9/11.

[outspoken]

Religion while it does have elements of it that are about controlling people, it is the path by which human beings can follow to transend our own human nature. Man without some kind of moral compass is nothing more than a bunch of fools running around with unconscious God-complexes.... I think the case can be made for both people inside and outside of Christianity/religion that seeking God and a way of life that is aligned with own individual divine spirituality is necessary for raising the collective human state of consciousness. Most great improvements in the is the condition of humanity came as a result of those who understood their own spiritual nature and challenged the conventional thinking of their day.

[dannno]

6:30 into the first movie for the Holy Bible and 9/11.

Right, I do recall an image of the two being shown in close proximity.

[Wren]

Really?!

Where is that?

I assume he mentioned this during one of his many weekly radio briefings which have been deleted from youtube. I haven't listened to all of them, so I don't know if he said this, but I did hear him say that he was not sure if there would be a police system implemented in this new society or not

[jmdrake]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't mention the Federal Reserve or 9/11 until the first section is over.. are you sure you didn't get that line from the first few minutes of a Debunking Zeitgeist youtube?


I'm pretty sure it doesn't mention the Federal Reserve or 9/11 until the first section is over.. are you sure you didn't get that line from the first few minutes of a Debunking Zeitgeist youtube?

No. This is from Zeitgeist itself. The "international banking cartel" is mentioned 5 minutes into the movie (before part I actually starts). There are also scenes from 9/11 during this intro. (People falling from the towers).

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_994351&v=6pgRUpDDrb0&feature=iv

"The religious institutions of this world are at the bottom of the dirt. The religious institutions are put their by the same people who gave you your government, your corrupt education, your international banking cartels".

And you have to wade through about 30 minutes of crap before you get to the "punchline". ZG part I substitutes their fake conspiracy for the real one. It is true that Christianity was changed when it became the official religion of the Roman empire. Only that's when it became more pagan, and not the other way around. It was then that the nonsense of Jesus being born on Dec 25 was introduced for example. ZG not only gets Christianity wrong and other pagan religions wrong, but it also gets Gnosticism wrong. (They didn't worship Jesus as the "sun" as claimed by ZG).

Note: I'm not going to torture myself watching the whole documentary again for the specific quote. I've watched enough again for you to see that ZG did in fact attempt to tie all three themes together.

[jmdrake]

Yeah, I don't remember that line either... people get so worked up over the first part that I think they make those notions up in their mind. In fact I've heard from a lot of people that they didnt even understand what Religion, 9/11 and the FR had to do with each other. They were confused... Its not a blame all on Christianity and its not even only about Christianity, its about religion.

Christianity is the only religion singled out for their scorn because Christianity is the only religion that stands in their way. Call me crazy or dishonest if you want. But I know what I heard. And I've given Dannno the direct reference.

[Romulus]

Christianity is the only religion singled out for their scorn because Christianity is the only religion that stands in their way. Call me crazy or dishonest if you want. But I know what I heard. And I've given Dannno the direct reference.

No I'm not going to call you anything... I'll agree that perhaps it could be dishonest, I'm certainly no scholar in Christianity and I don't think ALL religion is a bad thing.. its a tool like anything else. I do think ZG used it for his message.. I certainly don't agree with all of his message. The more you hear from him, the more he counterdicts himself and exposes the fact that he just prefers a different brand of statism. So he does have a slant and his message is flawed. With that perception I would wager to say he would bend the truth to convey his ideals.

[devil21]

I can totally agree w/ the last few expressed sentiments. The animated intro is EXTREMELY engaging, but the Q and A with the panelists gets REALLY boring. I'm actually happy that is IS so boring because it is overtly against the family, private property, and freedom in many ways.

Some of the points I DO agree with though, filling up landfills with tons of computers they keep making new ones of: Computers are likely one of the most free market areas of commerce.

Peter Joseph also said he was for a one child policy.

Yeah I think it was just listening to people Ive never heard of philosophize about stuff that I don't care about that lost my interest quick. The first film engaged me because it went straight into exposing some of the common misconceptions about religion and that will always get my attention. I prefer knowledge over pontification.

Btw danno, I meant the second Zeitgeist film has anti-liberty messages. I didn't get far enough into the new one to know, but by most accounts it is more of the same.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

So basically Venus Project = Star Trek Universe?

Cool.