Jane Hamsher and David House Detained Against Their Will At Quantico

[charrob]

Jane Hamsher and David House Detained Against Their Will At Quantico

Military police officer reportedly stated the orders to do so "came from on high."



http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/activists-manning-held-quantico/

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2011/01/23/statement-of-events-bradley-mannings-primary-visitor-detained-at-quantico/

[specsaregood]

At this time, one of the MPs asked for Hamsher’s auto insurance card. MP Gunnery Sgt. Foster informed Hamsher that her car would be towed after declining to accept a digital copy of Hamsher’s insurance card

What is a "digital copy"? She pull something up on an ipad or something?

[sailingaway]

WTF?

I'd be interested in details.

[oyarde]

WTF?

I'd be interested in details.

The military post nearest me requires you show proof of insurance as well as license and registration . They put an ad about it in the local newspaper several months ago .

[sailingaway]

The military post nearest me requires you show proof of insurance as well as license and registration . They put an ad about it in the local newspaper several months ago .

And I could kind of see them not letting these guys drive without it, if they were being dicks. But searching the car and getting social security numbers?

[charrob]

What is a "digital copy"? She pull something up on an ipad or something?

Don't know, but according to the article David House's vehicle was also impounded. The article states: "House and Hamsher were stopped and detained by military police who provided no explanation for detainment aside from a statement from one MP that his orders to detain had “come from the top.”"

[lester1/2jr]

gaaah? not good

[oyarde]

gaaah? not good

Well for a Gunny that could mean the Ist Sgt or the CO .

[oyarde]

And I could kind of see them not letting these guys drive without it, if they were being dicks. But searching the car and getting social security numbers?

I am sure they would not allow anyone to drive without it and I would guess there would be a ticket and hefty fine.

[charrob]

I am sure they would not allow anyone to drive without it and I would guess there would be a ticket and hefty fine.

...but this would only be for Jane's vehicle; David's vehicle was apparently impounded for no reason other than "the orders to do so came from the top".

[sailingaway]

I am sure they would not allow anyone to drive without it and I would guess there would be a ticket and hefty fine.

Except she had a 'digital copy' which means they probably had discretion to accept that. But they were on solid ground not letting them drive. Impounding the vehicle, searching it, getting their SS#'s......

They are on a military base and the rules there may be different, but it seems like they went further than they had to.

[oyarde]

Except she had a 'digital copy' which means they probably had discretion to accept that. But they were on solid ground not letting them drive. Impounding the vehicle, searching it, getting their SS#'s......

They are on a military base and the rules there may be different, but it seems like they went further than they had to.

To me , yes it appears they went further than needed . What you would have to know is , must there be a paper copy of proof of insurance . Likely .

[sailingaway]

To me , yes it appears they went further than needed . What you would have to know is , must there be a paper copy of proof of insurance . Likely .

OK, in my state it just says 'carry proof of insurance'. I have a card, but the law doesn't specify that.

[charrob]

here's some more information:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeXJISwiO7Y

[oyarde]

...but this would only be for Jane's vehicle; David's vehicle was apparently impounded for no reason other than "the orders to do so came from the top".

Two vehicles ?

[angelatc]

What is a "digital copy"? She pull something up on an ipad or something?

I can log onto my account online, and there's an option to print a copy.. It prints to .pdf. Just the other day my husband and I were discussing whether a cop would take that or not...

[oyarde]

OK, in my state it just says 'carry proof of insurance'. I have a card, but the law doesn't specify that.

In my state you do not have to carry a card . On the military installations you do . What they do here , is if you get a ticket , they mail you something that your ins co has to mail in saying you were insured at the time .

[oyarde]

I can log onto my account online, and there's an option to print a copy.. It prints to .pdf. Just the other day my husband and I were discussing whether a cop would take that or not...

I would be skeptical of anyone accepting that ....

[oyarde]

OK, in my state it just says 'carry proof of insurance'. I have a card, but the law doesn't specify that.

I do carry a card in my wallet though , I assumed some states would require it ...

[angelatc]

I would be skeptical of anyone accepting that ....

The DMV will take the printed copy. I thought all insurance companies had this function now. We were wondering if the police would take the digital copy was my point. As in, if we pulled it up on a smart phone, would it count?

[sailingaway]

The DMV will take the printed copy. I thought all insurance companies had this function now. We were wondering if the police would take the digital copy was my point. As in, if we pulled it up on a smart phone, would it count?

I guess Jane found out....

I think it is a fix it ticket where I am though. Not impound of your vehicle.

[oyarde]

The DMV will take the printed copy. I thought all insurance companies had this function now. We were wondering if the police would take the digital copy was my point. As in, if we pulled it up on a smart phone, would it count?

When I said anyone , I was thinking cops .

[pcosmar]

A digital copy is proof of insurance.
It is accepted at DMV. I have done it several times.
Call the agent, agent faxes a copy. DMV gives me my plates.
That is a digital copy.

All that is required is proof that you have insurance.
Sounds like they are being deliberately difficult.

[oyarde]

A digital copy is proof of insurance.
It is accepted at DMV. I have done it several times.
Call the agent, agent faxes a copy. DMV gives me my plates.
That is a digital copy.

All that is required is proof that you have insurance.
Sounds like they are being deliberately difficult.

Yes , but is that routine ?

[pcosmar]

Yes , but is that routine ?

Being deliberately difficult?
Don't know, never been to Quantico.

The proof of insurance being digitally transmitted is and has been routine for several years.

[oyarde]

Being deliberately difficult?
Don't know, never been to Quantico.

The proof of insurance being digitally transmitted is and has been routine for several years.

Do not think I have been on there in recent times . I avoid them all since 9 / 11 . I have not cut through any facilities since they started this stuff . Used to be you could drive through or at most on many show id and give a reason .

[devil21]

Under what basis is the US Military able to circumvent people's 4th amendment right against unreasonable/unwarranted search and seizure and their 5th amendment right against self-incrimination? Requiring someone's DL, registration, and insurance just to access public grounds of a military base and then arresting and towing if they don't have it? Can someone tell me when MPs were exempted from the US Constitution, particularly regarding civilians?

[oyarde]

Under what basis is the US Military able to circumvent people's 4th amendment right against unreasonable/unwarranted search and seizure and their 5th amendment right against self-incrimination? Requiring someone's DL, registration, and insurance just to access public grounds of a military base and then arresting and towing if they don't have it? Can someone tell me when MPs were exempted from the US Constitution, particularly regarding civilians?

Best to avoid those installations , because , yeah , they are exempt .

[devil21]

Best to avoid those installations , because , yeah , they are exempt .

Lemm guess....more "National Security" bullshit to chip away at our rights, right? Must be nice to just be exempted from following the Constitution just because someone says you are. Military bases are funded by public money and if they have public access (cut through streets, etc) then they should follow the rule of law just like everyone else. This whole notion that a MP (not even a cop) can ignore a CIVILIAN'S rights, pull a "papers please" on you, then tow your car and/or arrest you is absurd.

[angelatc]

Under what basis is the US Military able to circumvent people's 4th amendment right against unreasonable/unwarranted search and seizure and their 5th amendment right against self-incrimination? Requiring someone's DL, registration, and insurance just to access public grounds of a military base and then arresting and towing if they don't have it? Can someone tell me when MPs were exempted from the US Constitution, particularly regarding civilians?

Gee, I'm shocked to find out that random people can't just freely enter and exit our military facilities.

When you enter the base, you're agreeing to their rules. And honestly, you can't drive on expired tags. The cops have the right to impound your car for that, too.

[pcosmar]

Gee, I'm shocked to find out that random people can't just freely enter and exit our military facilities.

When you enter the base, you're agreeing to their rules. And honestly, you can't drive on expired tags. The cops have the right to impound your car for that, too.

So do they expect every car on the base to provide a hard copy of their insurance policy?
You can get an insurance card and then cancel your insurance, so the card is not in fact "proof of insurance". The only way to check is to run it "check on a computer" to see if it is valid insurance.
That would be digital proof.

I suspect this is just deliberate harassment.

In past visits, Hamsher and House have had no problem driving onto the base to visit Manning. This is the first time House has been denied access to Manning. House and Hamsher’s detainment comes on the heels of Amnesty International calling for an investigation into the conditions of Manning’s confinement. The UN Special Rapporteur on Torture has also announced that the UN will be starting an investigation and Manning’s attorney has filed an article 138 complaint citing inhumane and overly harsh conditions on part of the Brig. Now House, Manning’s primary visitor outside of his attorney, who has provided public testimony about Manning’s deteriorating conditions as a result to his solitary confinement, has effectively been denied access to Manning.

[oyarde]

So do they expect every car on the base to provide a hard copy of their insurance policy?
You can get an insurance card and then cancel your insurance, so the card is not in fact "proof of insurance". The only way to check is to run it "check on a computer" to see if it is valid insurance.
That would be digital proof.

I suspect this is just deliberate harassment.

This is why in my state , if ticketed , your ins co has to send them a form saying you were insured at the time .

[HOLLYWOOD]

You have to provide all the information PRIOR to traveling on base and you receive a temporary visitors tag that's placed in your front windows. SOP across military branches.

Where's Eric Holder on this one? Where's the Liberals, ACLU, Code Pinko, yotta yotta... oh I forgot, the Zombies are glued to their TYV sets to watch the Messiah spew propaganda.

PS: Never speed or moving violations on military installations... you have to go to Federal Court/Federal BS/Federal jacked-up fines/costs.


Gee, I'm shocked to find out that random people can't just freely enter and exit our military facilities.

When you enter the base, you're agreeing to their rules. And honestly, you can't drive on expired tags. The cops have the right to impound your car for that, too.

[oyarde]

You have to provide all the information PRIOR to traveling on base and you receive a temporary visitors tag that's placed in your front windows. SOP across military branches.

Where's Eric Holder on this one? Where's the Liberals, ACLU, Code Pinko, yotta yotta... oh I forgot, the Zombies are glued to their TYV sets to watch the Messiah spew propaganda.

PS: Never speed or moving violations on military installations... you have to go to Federal Court/Federal BS/Federal jacked-up fines/costs.
I got a speeding ticket on Fort Lewis once .....

[devil21]

Gee, I'm shocked to find out that random people can't just freely enter and exit our military facilities.

When you enter the base, you're agreeing to their rules. And honestly, you can't drive on expired tags. The cops have the right to impound your car for that, too.

If only it was that cut and dry.

In nothern VA there's a US Army base, Ft Belvoir. Ft Belvoir is fairly large for a metro area base and has cut-through streets and even public roads that run through the base that connect major roads to other roads on the other side of the base. People (civilians) routinely drove through the base to get to the other side. Some of the gates weren't even manned at all. MPs had jurisdiction to stop speeders and the like, like regular cops, while on the base, but they always had to abide by the rest of the Constitution when dealing with civilians.

Now that same base has checkpoints at every road entrance, MPs that randomly search cars with NO probable cause and other unconstitutional nonsense.

So in your very broad example, sure a closed base, fences, etc probably should require an ID and a PURPOSE to enter onto the base. But are you suggesting MPs should be enforcing traffic laws on civilians that they have no probable cause to harrass other than in the basic course of identifying visitors with purpose? Asking for ID and purpose to enter is one thing. Checking insurance, registration and all that isn't in their purview and is a plain violation of Constitutional rights. Btw, MPs aren't "cops" except on military bases and they don't even go through law enforcement training like civilian police.

(Btw, whatever that book you read by the neo-con was, Ill definitely skip it. Your tone seems to have turned decidedly more statist recently angela. Just my opinion though.)

[Danke]

You have to provide all the information PRIOR to traveling on base and you receive a temporary visitors tag that's placed in your front windows. SOP across military branches.

Where's Eric Holder on this one? Where's the Liberals, ACLU, Code Pinko, yotta yotta... oh I forgot, the Zombies are glued to their TYV sets to watch the Messiah spew propaganda.

PS: Never speed or moving violations on military installations... you have to go to Federal Court/Federal BS/Federal jacked-up fines/costs.

I had my driving privileges suspended for a couple of weeks after the Security Police stopped me with ~8 drunk squadron mates piled on top of my car as I drove around base. Luckily it wasn't until after the suspension expired that my commanded told me of the disciplinary action he took.

[angelatc]

If only it was that cut and dry.

Now that same base has checkpoints at every road entrance, MPs that randomly search cars with NO probable cause and other unconstitutional nonsense.

So in your very broad example, sure a closed base, fences, etc probably should require an ID and a PURPOSE to enter onto the base. But are you suggesting MPs should be enforcing traffic laws on civilians that they have no probable cause to harrass other than in the basic course of identifying visitors with purpose? Asking for ID and purpose to enter is one thing. Checking insurance, registration and all that isn't in their purview and is a plain violation of Constitutional rights. Btw, MPs aren't "cops" except on military bases and they don't even go through law enforcement training like civilian police.

(Btw, whatever that book you read by the neo-con was, Ill definitely skip it. Your tone seems to have turned decidedly more statist recently angela. Just my opinion though.)

The book I recommended has nothing to do with foreign policy or government spending or any semblance of neoconservative philosophy, but by all means, skip it, stay stupid, and use personal attacks to support your position. That'll win us elections, for sure. Or maybe you don't care if we lose, as long as you can stay pure? Fine, but stop whining about losing then, when you made the choice.

I've never pretended to be a libertarian. Now that most of the people left around here are the fringy types, I guess it's more noticeable. do believe that when you drive onto a military base, you're agreeing to abide the rules of that base.

Additionally, I have no patience for stupid people. These idiots decided to go visit the guy who is being held in the biggest military security leak so far this century, and they did it without carrying proof of insurance and on expired tags. (Bear in mind these are liberals, who screech like banshees about other people not paying enough in taxes!) THe MP's didn't need to search anybody - Hamsher and her friend were practically screaming "Here's a reason to stop us!" \

Philosophically, I have far more aversion to being required to produce papers on a public street than I do on a military base.

( It took me about 1 minute to find that Quantico rules clearly state that autos must have tags and insurance to be driven on the base. I'm assuming that the Military Police are indeed responsible for enforcing that rule. )

All this feigned indignation and surprise because the military used a freaking obvious reason to keep that visit from happening is ridiculous.

[angelatc]

So do they expect every car on the base to provide a hard copy of their insurance policy?
You can get an insurance card and then cancel your insurance, so the card is not in fact "proof of insurance". The only way to check is to run it "check on a computer" to see if it is valid insurance.
That would be digital proof.

I suspect this is just deliberate harassment.

They didn't ask for insurance until they saw the expired tag. Just like any other traffic stop in the world.

But of course it is deliberate harassment. I just think it's freaking stupid to think that they weren't going to be looking for reasons to keep Manning from having visitors. We know these people aren't our friends. It's beyond dumb to be surprised when they play the power card, and flat out retarded to hand them that card to play in the first place. Driving in there on expired tags was handing them a gift.

[pcosmar]

They didn't ask for insurance until they saw the expired tag. Just like any other traffic stop in the world.

But of course it is deliberate harassment. I just think it's freaking stupid to think that they weren't going to be looking for reasons to keep Manning from having visitors. We know these people aren't our friends. It's beyond dumb to be surprised when they play the power card, and flat out retarded to hand them that card to play in the first place. Driving in there on expired tags was handing them a gift.

Where do you get the information that the tags were expired?
I have not found that in the thread until your claim in post #30. I have found nothing to that effect in any other articles I have seen.
They refused to except her Proof of Insurance. Please post some link that verifies that the tags were expired. I have found none.

So far, your claim is all there is. and no link to base it on.

Oh, and these are not "Random People" They are known and have visited before.
There is much more going on here. The Lawyer is also being denied contact, and both he and Amnesty International are claiming Torture.

[pcosmar]

Gee, I'm shocked to find out that random people can't just freely enter and exit our military facilities.

When you enter the base, you're agreeing to their rules. And honestly, you can't drive on expired tags. The cops have the right to impound your car for that, too.

OK,
I have been looking some more.
I still can NOT find anything about expired tags. Except for some random comments (same comments in several stories) In the anonymous comments section after the stories.

It there any proof of expired tags? Or is that just some bullshit being spread to counter this story?

Other related stories include
Government has NO evidence of any connection between Manning and Assange.
Lawyer and others claiming Manning is being tortured.
Manning's accuser has credibility issues.

But Nothing on Expired Tags.

[devil21]

The book I recommended has nothing to do with foreign policy or government spending or any semblance of neoconservative philosophy, but by all means, skip it, stay stupid, and use personal attacks to support your position. That'll win us elections, for sure. Or maybe you don't care if we lose, as long as you can stay pure? Fine, but stop whining about losing then, when you made the choice.

Wow, really? Some neo-con's book is the difference between enlightenment and stupidity? Must be one heck of a book. I still think I'll pass since apparently it give's one a God-complex too. That actually explains a lot about the mindset I thought we were trying to up-end.



I've never pretended to be a libertarian. Now that most of the people left around here are the fringy types, I guess it's more noticeable. do believe that when you drive onto a military base, you're agreeing to abide the rules of that base.

And you support that a military base is somehow exempt from the ultimate federal rule of law, the US Constitution? People can be required, without probable cause, to produce all papers demanded or go to jail?



Additionally, I have no patience for stupid people. These idiots decided to go visit the guy who is being held in the biggest military security leak so far this century, and they did it without carrying proof of insurance and on expired tags. (Bear in mind these are liberals, who screech like banshees about other people not paying enough in taxes!) THe MP's didn't need to search anybody - Hamsher and her friend were practically screaming "Here's a reason to stop us!" \

Like pcosmar asked, where is the reference to an expired tag in the actual media item? Please quote it. Otherwise, what you see here is authoritarians using their power to intimidate people performing lawful work simply because they don't like the work. I don't have proof of insurance to hand to an MP either. Know why? My state doesn't require a physical insurance card.



Philosophically, I have far more aversion to being required to produce papers on a public street than I do on a military base.

ID is fine, along with a stated purpose. Running a motorist through the wringer on all of the traffic laws without probable cause is unconstitutional. I ask again, do you support suspending the Constitution on military bases, particularly for civilians? I recognize that when people enter military service they give up their Constitutional rights and agree to the code of Military Justice. This is civilians we're talking about here. Or in the alternative, put up a sign at every military base entrance expressly informing people that by entering they agree to give up their Constitutional rights while on base. That way people can make informed decisions at least about whether they want to submit to such a thing.



( It took me about 1 minute to find that Quantico rules clearly state that autos must have tags and insurance to be driven on the base. I'm assuming that the Military Police are indeed responsible for enforcing that rule. )

But then we're right back at whether it is acceptable to violate the 4th Amendment right against search and seizure without probable cause and the 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination, simply because it's a military base.



All this feigned indignation and surprise because the military used a freaking obvious reason to keep that visit from happening is ridiculous.

I doubt anyone on this thread is surprised at the lengths the government will go to intimidate and shut people up. My issue is simply why the Constitution is apparently suspended on US soil simply because you enter onto a military base. Why do I have to show an MP my DL, insurance, registration, etc without probable cause to believe I don't have them?

[pcosmar]

They didn't ask for insurance until they saw the expired tag. Just like any other traffic stop in the world.

But of course it is deliberate harassment. I just think it's freaking stupid to think that they weren't going to be looking for reasons to keep Manning from having visitors. We know these people aren't our friends. It's beyond dumb to be surprised when they play the power card, and flat out retarded to hand them that card to play in the first place. Driving in there on expired tags was handing them a gift.

What expired tag?
There is no mention of the tag. and That is not the reason given.

They refused to accept Proof of Insurance. Even though Proof of Insurance was given.
And even if that was a legitimate reason to refuse the car entry to the base., It is still not a valid reason to detain them or to impound the car.

I have still seen no evidence that the tags were expired nor any mention of that being a reason.

[devil21]

Heres probably why they are clamping down on visitors to see Manning:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41241414/ns/us_news-wikileaks_in_security/


U.S. military officials tell NBC News that investigators have been unable to make any direct connection between a jailed army private suspected with leaking secret documents and Julian Assange, founder of the whistleblowing website WikiLeaks.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Gee, I'm shocked to find out that random people can't just freely enter and exit our military facilities.

When you enter the base, you're agreeing to their rules. And honestly, you can't drive on expired tags. The cops have the right to impound your car for that, too.

Tags are about as stupid as the Stamp Act. All it is, is a revenue dump and more extortion of your money. It serves no other purpose whatsoever.