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Number19
01-15-2011, 09:28 PM
I never thought I'd see the day that I'd admit that Krugman has it right. But that day has come with today's op-ed.

"...we are a deeply divided nation and are likely to remain one for a long time...one side of American politics considers the modern welfare state morally superior to (capitalism)...the other side believes that people have a right to keep what they earn and that taxing them to support others, no matter how needy, amounts to theft...there's no middle ground between these views...this (is a) deep divide in American political morality...what we're talking about here is a fundamental disagreement about the proper role of government...".

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/7382441.html

Sentient Void
01-15-2011, 09:44 PM
Haha 'Even a broken clock is right twice a day' - right KRUGMAN?!

What a douchebag.

lynnf
01-15-2011, 09:46 PM
I never thought I'd see the day that I'd admit that Krugman has it right. But that day has come with today's op-ed.

"...we are a deeply divided nation and are likely to remain one for a long time...one side of American politics considers the modern welfare state morally superior to (capitalism)...the other side believes that people have a right to keep what they earn and that taxing them to support others, no matter how needy, amounts to theft...there's no middle ground between these views...this (is a) deep divide in American political morality...what we're talking about here is a fundamental disagreement about the proper role of government...".

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/7382441.html

even a blind hog digs up an acorn every now and then!

lynn

Koz
01-15-2011, 09:57 PM
Krugman's still a jackass.

Anti Federalist
01-15-2011, 10:06 PM
"...we are a deeply divided nation and are likely to remain one for a long time...one side of American politics considers the modern welfare state morally superior to (capitalism)...the other side believes that people have a right to keep what they earn and that taxing them to support others, no matter how needy, amounts to theft...there's no middle ground between these views...this (is a) deep divide in American political morality...what we're talking about here is a fundamental disagreement about the proper role of government...".

So for the love of god, can we PLEASE peacefully separate now, instead of trying to force two fundamentally opposed peoples together at gunpoint???!!!

For Fuck's Sake...it's like trying to force back together the two most bitter divorcées you have ever seen or known, by waving a pistol in their face.

Yeah, that's gonna turn out well...

Kotin
01-15-2011, 10:14 PM
So for the love of god, can we PLEASE peacefully separate now, instead of trying to force two fundamentally opposed peoples together at gunpoint???!!!

For Fuck's Sake...it's like trying to force back together the two most bitter divorcées you have ever seen or known, by waving a pistol in their face.

Yeah, that's gonna turn out well...


+100000000000

Mini-Me
01-15-2011, 10:20 PM
So for the love of god, can we PLEASE peacefully separate now, instead of trying to force two fundamentally opposed peoples together at gunpoint???!!!

For Fuck's Sake...it's like trying to force back together the two most bitter divorcées you have ever seen or known, by waving a pistol in their face.

Yeah, that's gonna turn out well...

The real headbanger is the fact that your solution is just so unacceptable to so many people. It's not enough for socialists or fascists to get what they want where they live; they MUST force one-size fits all government programs and laws on everyone everywhere. I understand why the power brokers and such want total control, and I understand that people are brainwashed into accepting and promoting that mentality, but you'd really think that such an obvious solution would be harder to suppress.

specsaregood
01-15-2011, 10:25 PM
So for the love of god, can we PLEASE peacefully separate now, instead of trying to force two fundamentally opposed peoples together at gunpoint???!!!


No; because group a can't survive without group b.

Andrew-Austin
01-15-2011, 10:25 PM
I never thought I'd see the day that I'd admit that Krugman has it right. But that day has come with today's op-ed.

"...we are a deeply divided nation and are likely to remain one for a long time...one side of American politics considers the modern welfare state morally superior to (capitalism)...the other side believes that people have a right to keep what they earn and that taxing them to support others, no matter how needy, amounts to theft...there's no middle ground between these views...this (is a) deep divide in American political morality...what we're talking about here is a fundamental disagreement about the proper role of government...".

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/7382441.html

Sure he is right there, but he is just stating the obvious, which anyone can do.

Thanks Mr. Intellectual for stating the obvious, what would we do without you.

Anti Federalist
01-15-2011, 10:32 PM
No; because group a can't survive without group b.

Well, shit, then Imma just gonna go jump overboard right now and be done with it.

I cannot accept that there is a symbiotic relationship here that can never be broken and leaving us to muddle in this mess forever.

rprprs
01-15-2011, 10:33 PM
Krugman can't get beyond the first paragraph without disingenuous pandering.

On Wednesday, President Barack Obama called on Americans to "expand our moral imaginations, to listen to each other more carefully, to sharpen our instincts for empathy, and remind ourselves of all the ways our hopes and dreams are bound together." Those were beautiful words; they spoke to our desire for reconciliation.
Whose desire? Certainly not mine. And, I dare say, not Krugman's either. By "reconciliation", what he really means is his desire for our capitulation.

He's correct only in recognizing the great divide, but wrong in assuming even an extended time will bring about reconciliation. Never the twain shall meet. Nor should they.

Anti Federalist
01-15-2011, 10:34 PM
The real headbanger is the fact that your solution is just so unacceptable to so many people. It's not enough for socialists or fascists to get what they want where they live; they MUST force one-size fits all government programs and laws on everyone everywhere. I understand why the power brokers and such want total control, and I understand that people are brainwashed into accepting and promoting that mentality, but you'd really think that such an obvious solution would be harder to suppress.

Honestly...

I cannot, for the life of me figure out, aside from the obvious aspirations of the control freaks that you already mentioned, why this is such a hard sell?

Gah...

low preference guy
01-15-2011, 10:48 PM
No; because group a can't survive without group b.

Group b needs to shrug! AF, did you read that book?

Sentinelrv
01-15-2011, 10:57 PM
Group b needs to shrug! AF, did you read that book?

Unfortunately, we don't have our own Galt's Gulch to hide out in while the world collapses. I doubt many people would follow even if there were, simply for lack of understanding that they are the very reason the looters are able to continue looting.

Anti Federalist
01-15-2011, 11:05 PM
Group b needs to shrug! AF, did you read that book?

Years ago, LPG, years ago.

Better read it again.

Anti Federalist
01-15-2011, 11:09 PM
It occurs to me as well, that if the fuckers would just follow the constitution and leave states alone to be "laboratories of democracy" and let people "vote with their feet" there would be no need for separation, bloody or otherwise.

http://hooniverse.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/RageFace2.png

Sola_Fide
01-15-2011, 11:11 PM
So for the love of god, can we PLEASE peacefully separate now, instead of trying to force two fundamentally opposed peoples together at gunpoint???!!!

For Fuck's Sake...it's like trying to force back together the two most bitter divorcées you have ever seen or known, by waving a pistol in their face.

Yeah, that's gonna turn out well...

What sweet words. You sound like Jefferson Davis! But we know tyrants never leave patriots alone. They always want good men to share in the misery.

QueenB4Liberty
01-15-2011, 11:21 PM
so for the love of god, can we please peacefully separate now, instead of trying to force two fundamentally opposed peoples together at gunpoint???!!!

For fuck's sake...it's like trying to force back together the two most bitter divorcées you have ever seen or known, by waving a pistol in their face.

Yeah, that's gonna turn out well...

qft.

Inkblots
01-15-2011, 11:32 PM
Well, shit, then Imma just gonna go jump overboard right now and be done with it.

I cannot accept that there is a symbiotic relationship here that can never be broken and leaving us to muddle in this mess forever.

I wish it were symbiotic. Unfortunately, I think the right word in this case is parasitic.

specsaregood
01-15-2011, 11:32 PM
I cannot accept that there is a symbiotic relationship here that can never be broken and leaving us to muddle in this mess forever.
It is called parasitism. :(


Group b needs to shrug! AF, did you read that book?
About 20 years ago, was never a fan of that woman's writing.

low preference guy
01-15-2011, 11:33 PM
About 20 years ago, was never a fan of that woman's writing.

me neither, but i agree with her at a high level.

Anti Federalist
01-15-2011, 11:37 PM
I wish it were symbiotic. Unfortunately, I think the right word in this case is parasitic.


It is called parasitism. :(

True enough, in my hasty reading of the statement, I assumed that group "b" would be equally unlikely to throw off group "a".

specsaregood
01-15-2011, 11:44 PM
//

low preference guy
01-15-2011, 11:50 PM
Yeah maybe. I most remember the fountainhead. I read it for a scholarship essay contest.
The subject one was to write about was, "which character do you admire most and why". I was stumped as I didn't admire any of the characters.

hahaha. the ARI people didn't realize not everyone has a worshippy attitude towards Rand's characters.

you probably misplaced the essay. if you didn't, you should post it in a thread for discussion!

specsaregood
01-16-2011, 12:08 AM
//

TNforPaul45
01-16-2011, 12:37 AM
I never thought I'd see the day that I'd admit that Krugman has it right. But that day has come with today's op-ed.

"...we are a deeply divided nation and are likely to remain one for a long time...one side of American politics considers the modern welfare state morally superior to (capitalism)...the other side believes that people have a right to keep what they earn and that taxing them to support others, no matter how needy, amounts to theft...there's no middle ground between these views...this (is a) deep divide in American political morality...what we're talking about here is a fundamental disagreement about the proper role of government...".

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/7382441.html

Of course he is "right." He is a member of the crowd that helped to engineer society into the state he describes.

BenIsForRon
01-16-2011, 12:45 AM
Krugman is wrong and all of you are wrong too. Most people see our society as mixture of capitalism and tax funded social programs. They aren't firmly in one camp or the other.

You guys like to make everything out like there is a huge war going on between statists and liberty lovers, when in fact a majority of the American population is too distracted, whether by working too much or watching too much TV, to even think about this stuff.

We don't need separation, we need education. Education is what the C4L is about, it is what Dr. Paul's 2008 campaign was about. So many of you have lost sight of just what the fuck is going on in this country. All this quiet time on the forums has caused you to make up silly stories in your head... much like Krugman.

Austrian Econ Disciple
01-16-2011, 12:56 AM
Krugman is wrong and all of you are wrong too. Most people see our society as mixture of capitalism and tax funded social programs. They aren't firmly in one camp or the other.

You guys like to make everything out like there is a huge war going on between statists and liberty lovers, when in fact a majority of the American population is too distracted, whether by working too much or watching too much TV, to even think about this stuff.

We don't need separation, we need education. Education is what the C4L is about, it is what Dr. Paul's 2008 campaign was about. So many of you have lost sight of just what the fuck is going on in this country. All this quiet time on the forums has caused you to make up silly stories in your head... much like Krugman.

I think you need to get out a bit. All the young folks like myself (24) I have known and talked to (a lot), are decidely in one camp or the other -- that is, abolition or increase taxes and devoutly keep. Many of the young folks understand Welfare is plainly theft, and so is taxation. We don't like being cows led to the slaughter. I would say Krugman is absolutely right, just that it is a generational difference. You will see a large shift when the older folks start to die off.

You will see a vigorous fight in the coming future between those who believe in negative rights (Classical Liberals / Libertarians) and those in positive (Social Democrats). I think conservatives for the most part will play a much diminished role and many will move themselves over to one camp or the other. I all ready see it happening in the youth where there are a lot of libertarians, a lot of social democrats, and not many conservatives.

low preference guy
01-16-2011, 12:57 AM
I think you need to get out a bit. All the young folks like myself (24) I have known and talked to (a lot), are decidely in one camp or the other -- that is, abolition or increase taxes and devoutly keep. Many of the young folks understand Welfare is plainly theft, and so is taxation. We don't like being cows led to the slaughter. I would say Krugman is absolutely right, just that it is a generational difference. You will see a large shift when the older folks start to die off.

yeah, krugman is right on this one. (finally, it's so obvious)

ben will agree when jon stewart talks about it.

college4life
01-16-2011, 01:00 AM
I fear the number of young people in the liberty camp is very small, we are vastly outnumbered.

Prepare yourselves for greater government control of the economy

emazur
01-16-2011, 01:23 AM
The real headbanger is the fact that your solution is just so unacceptable to so many people. It's not enough for socialists or fascists to get what they want where they live; they MUST force one-size fits all government programs and laws on everyone everywhere. I understand why the power brokers and such want total control, and I understand that people are brainwashed into accepting and promoting that mentality, but you'd really think that such an obvious solution would be harder to suppress.

"Once it becomes a welfare society, a socialist society, you just try to have your owwwwn libertarian society and take care of yourself. They won't have any part of it because they need you and they need your money and they need your energy and wealth"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhl3IYkle9s

BenIsForRon
01-16-2011, 01:38 AM
I all ready see it happening in the youth where there are a lot of libertarians, a lot of social democrats, and not many conservatives.

Ok, why don't you ask your "social democrat" friends what they think about the Food Safety Modernization Act? I guarantee most of them will be against it. Your black and white comparisons don't work in reality. 99.9% of the people want some sort of a mix, the difference comes in proportions of capitalism and socialism they want the mixture.

That's why I want a small federal government, so different states can try different mixtures and see which one works the best.

Austrian Econ Disciple
01-16-2011, 01:47 AM
Ok, why don't you ask your "social democrat" friends what they think about the Food Safety Modernization Act? I guarantee most of them will be against it. Your black and white comparisons don't work in reality. 99.9% of the people want some sort of a mix, the difference comes in proportions of capitalism and socialism they want the mixture.

That's why I want a small federal government, so different states can try different mixtures and see which one works the best.

If that is your goal, then why not just have 50 Independent States and abolish the Federal Government? Small was in 1790. We are never going to get back to that size Government without secession and Independence.

Also, you are wrong. Many people do want either liberty or tyranny. Though the Democratic Socialists will proclaim their ideas not tyranny, it is what it is and is exactly what Krugman is talking about here. Many youths do not want any Welfare State whatsoever and do not want an Income Tax. However, there are many who do, and want even more! This is what Krugman is talking about.

Theocrat
01-16-2011, 01:53 AM
I never thought I'd see the day that I'd admit that Krugman has it right. But that day has come with today's op-ed.

"...we are a deeply divided nation and are likely to remain one for a long time...one side of American politics considers the modern welfare state morally superior to (capitalism)...the other side believes that people have a right to keep what they earn and that taxing them to support others, no matter how needy, amounts to theft...there's no middle ground between these views...this (is a) deep divide in American political morality...what we're talking about here is a fundamental disagreement about the proper role of government...".

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/7382441.html

Yes, this whole controversy has to do with worldviews. Sadly, neither side wants to return to the objective standard which can decide what the proper role of government should be (Hint: It's not the Constitution.). As long as people keep living in rebellion towards God, the worse our condition will get, whether it's political, economic, social, or whatever else.

BenIsForRon
01-16-2011, 01:53 AM
Also, you are wrong. Many people do want either liberty or tyranny. Though the Democratic Socialists will proclaim their ideas not tyranny, it is what it is and is exactly what Krugman is talking about here. Many youths do not want any Welfare State whatsoever and do not want an Income Tax. However, there are many who do, and want even more! This is what Krugman is talking about.

I think a lot of younger people who think there needs to be higher income tax just don't know about the alternatives, and don't understand economics. You'd like for them to move to the other side of the country, I'd just like to see them get educated. Neither one is very plausible, but I think my scenario is slightly more plausible.

And Theocrat: Why are you still up? God gave us a clear time of when to go to bed and when to get up. It's called night and day, respectively. You're clearly not following his law.

Austrian Econ Disciple
01-16-2011, 01:57 AM
I think a lot of younger people who think there needs to be higher income tax just don't know about the alternatives, and don't understand economics. You'd like for them to move to the other side of the country, I'd just like to see them get educated. Neither one is very plausible, but I think my scenario is slightly more plausible.

On the contrary I don't care if they move or stay, I just want to be left the fuck alone. See the clip of Ron in the above. That is what I want. I want to peacefully seceede without getting killed, or my property stolen. If it has to come to getting myself killed and my property stolen I am willing to pay that price also, but that is the thing with socialists. There can be no dissent. No other voice. Nothing but the borg. LEAVE ME ALONE GODDAMNIT. Stop stealing from me. Stop telling me what I can eat, what I can buy, what I can sell, etc. Is that too much to ask for?

AGRP
01-16-2011, 01:59 AM
Can someone remind me why we're supposed to care about the opinions of statists like Krugman?

low preference guy
01-16-2011, 02:01 AM
Can someone remind me why we're supposed to care about the opinions of statists like Krugman?

I think Krugman watched some Ron Paul youtube videos. He is the only one who talks about taxes and inflation as theft and confiscation. It's kind of interesting to know that the good doctor makes Krugman nervous.

Austrian Econ Disciple
01-16-2011, 02:03 AM
I think he watched some Ron Paul youtube videos. He is the only one who talks about taxes and inflation as theft and confiscation. It's kind of interesting to know that the good doctor makes Krugman nervous.

The Judge does also. I think Krugman is feeling the heat. :p

low preference guy
01-16-2011, 02:05 AM
The Judge does also. I think Krugman is feeling the heat. :p

Yeah, but I was referring implicitly to politicians. If it were only T.V. hosts, Krugman wouldn't care.

Talking about the Judge, I hope he gets Krugman to show up on Freedom Watch.

Number19
01-16-2011, 08:53 AM
Yeah maybe. I most remember the fountainhead. I read it for a scholarship essay contest.
The subject one was to write about was, "which character do you admire most and why". I was stumped as I didn't admire any of the characters. I queried my father on what to do. I said, "I guess I can just lie and make up why I admire one". He said, "No. Turn it around and write about why none of the characters are worth admiring." I didn't win, but I enjoyed writing the essay.

Reminds me of my senior year in high school in 1967, when one of the men's club - the Lion's Club, or maybe the Rotary Club - had a national writing contest organized through the nation's school systems, with the topic: Peace Is Attainable. My streak of individualism was evident even then and I turned it around and titled my paper, Peace Is Not Attainable.

After the judging, my English teacher approached me and said my piece was excellent and had impressed the judges, but they couldn't submit it to the next level because I hadn't addressed the topic. As a consolation, she said I would be allowed to read my essay to the class, the only student to do so. Unfortunately, I only got about half way through my presentation before the bell rang ending class.

Number19
01-16-2011, 09:00 AM
Krugman is wrong and all of you are wrong too. Most people see our society as mixture of capitalism and tax funded social programs. They aren't firmly in one camp or the other.

You guys like to make everything out like there is a huge war going on between statists and liberty lovers, when in fact a majority of the American population is too distracted, whether by working too much or watching too much TV, to even think about this stuff.

We don't need separation, we need education. Education is what the C4L is about, it is what Dr. Paul's 2008 campaign was about. So many of you have lost sight of just what the fuck is going on in this country. All this quiet time on the forums has caused you to make up silly stories in your head... much like Krugman.

Your "education" has been has been an ongoing project since at least 1979 when I signed on. It hasn't gotten us very far. Ron Paul and the current movement is just the latest incarnation.

Number19
01-16-2011, 09:16 AM
Can someone remind me why we're supposed to care about the opinions of statists like Krugman?

Sun Tzu - The Art of War : Know your enemy.

Krugman is a major figure for the opposition. For him to recognize this reality and to address it to his national audience is of huge importance. It moves the parameters for further national discourse by the MSM.

osan
01-16-2011, 09:41 AM
So for the love of god, can we PLEASE peacefully separate now, instead of trying to force two fundamentally opposed peoples together at gunpoint???!!!

For Fuck's Sake...it's like trying to force back together the two most bitter divorcées you have ever seen or known, by waving a pistol in their face.

Yeah, that's gonna turn out well...

OK, so lets give the left Ill-Annoy and make them all move there. OK, we'll be generous and give them Iowa too. And strict border security will be observed.

Travlyr
01-16-2011, 09:52 AM
Can someone remind me why we're supposed to care about the opinions of statists like Krugman?
Paul Krugman is a voice of our rulers. It is wise to identify and understand your enemy ... to read what they write. He shills for continuation of a ruling elite to maintain their counterfeiting. That is where the real power lies.


I think you need to get out a bit. All the young folks like myself (24) I have known and talked to (a lot), are decidely in one camp or the other -- that is, abolition or increase taxes and devoutly keep. Many of the young folks understand Welfare is plainly theft, and so is taxation. We don't like being cows led to the slaughter. I would say Krugman is absolutely right, just that it is a generational difference. You will see a large shift when the older folks start to die off.
And that is exactly where your owners want you ... divided. Right vs. Left, Liberal vs. Conservative, Republican vs. Democrat ... rah, rah, rah... go... Red team ... go Blue. Yeah!
But never truth vs. lie, honesty vs. dishonesty, real vs. fiat.


You will see a vigorous fight in the coming future between those who believe in negative rights (Classical Liberals / Libertarians) and those in positive (Social Democrats). I think conservatives for the most part will play a much diminished role and many will move themselves over to one camp or the other. I all ready see it happening in the youth where there are a lot of libertarians, a lot of social democrats, and not many conservatives.
Just like in Argentina? While The Barter Clubs (http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-20/world/argentina.barter_1_barter-clubs-argentina-bottle-of-cooking-oil?_s=PM:WORLD) are more fair than IMF's fiat system, bartering is not as efficient or productive as using honest money. We don't have to crash and burn, then bang on pans; we just need to focus on the true culprits of society ... the ruling class who believe that they are above the law.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH6_i8zuffs


No; because group a can't survive without group b.

Exactly.


I never thought I'd see the day that I'd admit that Krugman has it right. But that day has come with today's op-ed.Sorry, but there is nothing in that article that is right. It effectively divides people.


So for the love of god, can we PLEASE peacefully separate now, instead of trying to force two fundamentally opposed peoples together at gunpoint???!!!No. Unfortunately, the power to print money is too great to give up peacefully.

Krugman writes,

The other side believes that people have a right to keep what they earn, and that taxing them to support others, no matter how needy, amounts to theft. That's what lies behind the modern right's fondness for violent rhetoric: Many activists on the right really do see taxes and regulation as tyrannical impositions on their liberty.
Bullshit. His label doesn't fit me. Taxation is theft, that is why I advocate for voluntary taxation, but I am not right or left. I am unlabeled.

low preference guy
01-16-2011, 03:47 PM
Bullshit. His label doesn't fit me. Taxation is theft, that is why I advocate for voluntary taxation, but I am not right or left. I am unlabeled.

We all know he is not talking about you. He is loosely talking about part of "the right". Ron Paul is one of them, it fits the description perfectly, as Ron Paul knows that taxes and inflation are theft and confiscation.

Travlyr
01-16-2011, 03:55 PM
We all know he is not talking about you. He is loosely talking about part of "the right". Ron Paul is one of them, it fits the description perfectly, as Ron Paul knows that taxes and inflation are theft and confiscation.

Ron Paul is part of the right-wing? What does that mean? Ask 10 people and get 10 different understandings has been my experience.

awake
01-16-2011, 04:04 PM
Divided; Do we want a world of murder, theft and lies, or, a world of peace, trade, and truth. There are people acting toward each world. Who will win?

low preference guy
01-16-2011, 04:17 PM
Ron Paul is part of the right-wing? What does that mean? Ask 10 people and get 10 different understandings has been my experience.

He is a member of the Republican Party.

Anti Federalist
01-17-2011, 01:14 PM
///

Mini-Me
01-17-2011, 08:01 PM
Krugman is wrong and all of you are wrong too. Most people see our society as mixture of capitalism and tax funded social programs. They aren't firmly in one camp or the other.

You guys like to make everything out like there is a huge war going on between statists and liberty lovers, when in fact a majority of the American population is too distracted, whether by working too much or watching too much TV, to even think about this stuff.

We don't need separation, we need education. Education is what the C4L is about, it is what Dr. Paul's 2008 campaign was about. So many of you have lost sight of just what the fuck is going on in this country. All this quiet time on the forums has caused you to make up silly stories in your head... much like Krugman.

It depends on how you define "separation." If you're talking about secession, then it's debatable. However, decentralization of powers and restoration of states' rights is the simple and obvious solution that everyone (except for totalitarian control freaks) should be able to get behind, because it would result in so much less friction than our current dilemma, where "one size fits all" laws create hostility and polarization. The fact that so many people demand centralization (the federal government must dictate everything for everyone) is indicative of a very deranged national mentality.

Since your later post indicated this is exactly what you want (decentralization of power), then it seems we're on the same page there. Next time you think of writing "all of you are wrong too," perhaps you should reconsider painting with such a wide brush. ;)