European Union

[eugenekop]

In another forum I've discussed the functions of the European Union. Here is one answer I've got. I'd like to hear your opinion about the points that poster made and about EU in general. Here is the quote.




Compare the situation within the EU with that of other industrialized areas without integration, for example, Northeast Asia (Korea, Taiwan, Japan) and NAFTA. There simply is no comparison:
* No barriers to the free movement of goods, services, capital and people.
* Free movement and freedom to work for all people anywhere in the Union (cri-ti-cal). No force-marching people off the bus in the middle of the night at the Canada-US border for security agents to scowl at passports to pretend the border's "secure". A huge boon for the people of Eastern Europe in particular who are now able to work in the West.
* The euro, whose economic benefits I am not competent to judge, but which did not invent Europe's monetary problems. Even in the 1970s and the 1980s, we had big problems maintaining reasonable stable currency exchanges and comparable interest rates. As always, this was a problem between (West) Germany on the one hand, and everyone else. In practice everyone mimicked the interest rates set in the Bundesbank, politically the current situation is much better (everyone in the Eurozone has a voice). It also, in terms of convenience, is a huge boon for those of us who live and work in different countries.
* The Erasmus program and other study abroad schemes concern more people in Europe than any comparable programs anywhere else in the world. There is also the mutual recognition of degrees.
* Health insurance claims can be processed in different countries across the continent.
* Businessmen do not need to worry about different regulations for their goods for each of the 27 countries of the Union. They are currently working on a unified patent application system as well.
* The EU, commercially, is a single actor in its dealings with other countries. Trade negotiations bilaterally and at the WTO are done as a bloc. This gives us great bargaining power and means we cannot be so easily bullied into bad trade deals by large economies (see for instance US-Canada trade relations as opposed to when the US tried to oppose steel tariffs on the EU in the early Bush years).
* The EU allows for constant coordination and cooperation among European agencies and bureaucracies. This is important, for example, for turning individual European forces into much more effective collective forces. This particularly concerns European disaster response units and European militaries (still embryonic).

[virgil47]

In another forum I've discussed the functions of the European Union. Here is one answer I've got. I'd like to hear your opinion about the points that poster made and about EU in general. Here is the quote.

His use of the term "collective" pretty much says it all.

[Churchill2004]

Inasmuch as the EU has led to open borders and free trade, it's a good thing. The rest of the EU is a mess, though. Daniel Hannan is the go-to guy for criticisms of the EU. I highly recommend his blog.

[eugenekop]

Any other comments?

[nobody's_hero]

Inasmuch as the EU has led to open borders and free trade, it's a good thing. The rest of the EU is a mess, though. Daniel Hannan is the go-to guy for criticisms of the EU. I highly recommend his blog.


Free trade or managed trade?

[karat32]

The problem with the EU is that it was sold to the peoples of Europe as a common market, not as a political union. Today EU represents everything that is bad about bloated bureacracies. It is basicly an anti-democratic and technocratic model for governance.

As for erasmus and other "good" things. Remember these programs are perfectly possible to have without political union. We have had similiar exchanges in scandinavia for a long long time. Also swizerland is part of the common market without suffering the imposition of wise overlords that take decisions for the people of swizerland.

Now, since I start working for the Union on the 24th maby my opinion will change. But I doubt it.

[karat32]

* No barriers to the free movement of goods, services, capital and people.
As stated above, you could have this without political union.
* Free movement and freedom to work for all people anywhere in the Union (cri-ti-cal). No force-marching people off the bus in the middle of the night at the Canada-US border for security agents to scowl at passports to pretend the border's "secure". A huge boon for the people of Eastern Europe in particular who are now able to work in the West.
You ask the british taxpayer if 1million poles arriving in the UK the first 18months is a good thing
* The euro, whose economic benefits I am not competent to judge, but which did not invent Europe's monetary problems. Even in the 1970s and the 1980s, we had big problems maintaining reasonable stable currency exchanges and comparable interest rates. As always, this was a problem between (West) Germany on the one hand, and everyone else. In practice everyone mimicked the interest rates set in the Bundesbank, politically the current situation is much better (everyone in the Eurozone has a voice). It also, in terms of convenience, is a huge boon for those of us who live and work in different countries.
http://mises.org/books/bagus_tragedy_of_euro.pdf


* Businessmen do not need to worry about different regulations for their goods for each of the 27 countries of the Union. They are currently working on a unified patent application system as well.
Yea please, give us EU patent offices. To start with patents are evil private monopolies and should not be supported. Secondly, no businessman worth anything in europe likes the HORRIBLE overregulation EU has given us.

* The EU, commercially, is a single actor in its dealings with other countries. Trade negotiations bilaterally and at the WTO are done as a bloc. This gives us great bargaining power and means we cannot be so easily bullied into bad trade deals by large economies (see for instance US-Canada trade relations as opposed to when the US tried to oppose steel tariffs on the EU in the early Bush years).
the only point I somewhat agree with

* The EU allows for constant coordination and cooperation among European agencies and bureaucracies. This is important, for example, for turning individual European forces into much more effective collective forces. This particularly concerns European disaster response units and European militaries (still embryonic).Seriously where did you find this EU-federalist fanatic?

[carnikava]

The following single negative feature of the EU beats all the "positive" ones: the centralization of power. As soon as a country joins, it gives up a certain amount of power to legislative and executive branches of the union. People all over the union must obey the laws forged by European parliament. And there is no shortage of those! This is why, in my opinion, it was made so easy for eastern European countries to join (even if the formal conditions were not necessarily fulfilled). The monetary union is a similar, but much grimmer story.

[eugenekop]

Well, you could also say that the federal government of the U.S is only a negative phenomenon because of the centralization of power, but I don't think many American libertarians will want to see this union dissolve.

[nobody's_hero]

Well, you could also say that the federal government of the U.S is only a negative phenomenon because of the centralization of power, but I don't think many American libertarians will want to see this union dissolve.

Maybe. I sometimes wonder though, if it would not be better to cut ties with states that are hurting very badly right now. No offense to Californians on here (I'm talking about your politicians, so hopefully no one is offended), but if you had a business partner who had fiscal responsibility issues, it'd be wise to sell off your portion of the business to someone else and get out while the gettin' is good.

I also wonder, if it was ever a wise decision to rush the integration of European nations that had been living on both sides of the iron curtain for half a century. When wealth is redistributed but the exchange between parties is mutual with the end result being equilibrium, that's one thing. But when equilibrium is forced under a centralized, increasingly authoritarian institution such as the E.U., it's called tyranny (theft). I think that a lot of eastern European nation's politicians viewed the E.U. as a short-cut to come to a level(er) playing field with the West. Western politicians saw the unification as a chance to compete with the U.S. economy. Of course, we know how artificial the U.S. wealth has been, so they may have given up much of their sovereignty for nothing.

[Corto_Maltese]

I live in sweden and there are a few good things with the union, like easy to move and work in another country in the union and lack of barriers.
It is not working though with all the subsidies and the euro. Would be good if the union was just there for making travel and trading easy.

[Elwar]

Eugene = troll

http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&p=13605027
https://mises.org/Community/forums/t/22232.aspx
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?276066-Some-regulations-scenarios

[pcosmar]

Well, you could also say that the federal government of the U.S is only a negative phenomenon because of the centralization of power, but I don't think many American libertarians will want to see this union dissolve.

Your first problem, You don't think.

Dissolved? not necessarily. (though possibly)
Severely neutered.(most definitely)

[JohnEngland]

Being British, I oppose the European Union.

In theory, the idea of a United States of Europe would be nice. However, the reality is sadly very different.

If the EU Constitution had been written by people like James Madison and the foundation recognised God, natural law and the rights of man (not the entitlements of man), then I could be for it.

My main criticism of the EUSSR is that it's highly undemocratic, corrupt and unaccountable.

This isn't to say that I don't like the other European countries (as is typically the pro-EU line in attacking dissenters). I've lived in Germany and Spain before and I very much like travelling around Europe. However, the European Union is not Europe - it's a bureaucracy imposed on Europe.