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View Full Version : Sec. State Grayson recieved email friday from Congresswoman Gifford. Regrets ad he ran.




BamaFanNKy
01-09-2011, 07:01 PM
http://politics.mycn2.com/2011/01/09/giffords-called-for-toning-down-rhetoric-and-partisanship-in-congratulatory-email-to-grayson/


Despite being the early favorite for the GOP nomination for U.S. Senate last year, Grayson lost to Republican Rand Paul during a contentious Republican primary in which both campaigns hurled tough ads at each other.

Grayson said one move he regretted was airing an ad criticizing Paul’s suggestion to raise to the eligibility age for Social Security.

“He was trying to articulate a solution that was politically controversial, and I criticized that without offering a solution,” he said. “When asked about what I would do, I never really felt comfortable answering because anything I said could be used the same way.”

MRoCkEd
01-09-2011, 07:09 PM
I'm glad Trey is out of electoral politics. It brings out the worst in him.

angelatc
01-09-2011, 07:16 PM
“After you get settled, I would love to talk about what we can do to promote centrism and moderation."

Liberals are always all about moderation and centrism when they're the minority. I have no interest in being a moderate.

BamaFanNKy
01-09-2011, 07:48 PM
Liberals are always all about moderation and centrism when they're the minority. I have no interest in being a moderate.

Gifford was not a liberal.

specsaregood
01-09-2011, 07:59 PM
Gifford was not a liberal.

Huh? Seems much big govt liberal to me:
http://www.ontheissues.org/house/Gabby_Giffords.htm
Abortions should always be legally available. (Nov 2000)
Voted YES on $192B additional anti-recession stimulus spending. (Jul 2009)
Voted YES on modifying bankruptcy rules to avoid mortgage foreclosures. (Mar 2009)
Voted YES on additional $825 billion for economic recovery package. (Jan 2009)
Voted YES on $60B stimulus package for jobs, infrastructure, & energy. (Sep 2008)
Voted YES on defining "energy emergency" on federal gas prices. (Jun 2008)
Voted YES on revitalizing severely distressed public housing. (Jan 2008)
Voted YES on regulating the subprime mortgage industry. (Nov 2007)
Civil unions ok; marriage definition not ok. (Nov 2000)
ENDA: prohibit employment discrimination for gays. (Jun 2009)
Voted YES on enforcing against anti-gay hate crimes. (Apr 2009)
Voted YES on $40B for green public schools. (May 2009)
Voted YES on enforcing limits on CO2 global warming pollution. (Jun 2009)
Voted YES on assisting workers who lose jobs due to globalization.
Ban semi-automatics; but allow concealed carry.
Voted YES on regulating tobacco as a drug. (Apr 2009)
Voted YES on expanding the Children's Health Insurance Program. (Jan 2009)
Voted YES on overriding veto on expansion of Medicare. (Jul 2008)
Voted YES on giving mental health full equity with physical health. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on Veto override: Extend SCHIP to cover 6M more kids. (Jan 2008)
Voted YES on adding 2 to 4 million children to SCHIP eligibility. (Oct 2007)
Voted YES on requiring negotiated Rx prices for Medicare part D. (Jan 2007)
Better and immediate funding for Medicare & Medicaid. (Dec 2000)
Prescription drug benefit within Medicare. (Jun 2000)
Remove restrictions on estriol (menopause medication). (Jun 2008)

BamaFanNKy
01-09-2011, 09:06 PM
Huh? Seems much big govt liberal to me:
http://www.ontheissues.org/house/Gabby_Giffords.htm
Abortions should always be legally available. (Nov 2000)
Voted YES on $192B additional anti-recession stimulus spending. (Jul 2009)
Voted YES on modifying bankruptcy rules to avoid mortgage foreclosures. (Mar 2009)
Voted YES on additional $825 billion for economic recovery package. (Jan 2009)
Voted YES on $60B stimulus package for jobs, infrastructure, & energy. (Sep 2008)
Voted YES on defining "energy emergency" on federal gas prices. (Jun 2008)
Voted YES on revitalizing severely distressed public housing. (Jan 2008)
Voted YES on regulating the subprime mortgage industry. (Nov 2007)
Civil unions ok; marriage definition not ok. (Nov 2000)
ENDA: prohibit employment discrimination for gays. (Jun 2009)
Voted YES on enforcing against anti-gay hate crimes. (Apr 2009)
Voted YES on $40B for green public schools. (May 2009)
Voted YES on enforcing limits on CO2 global warming pollution. (Jun 2009)
Voted YES on assisting workers who lose jobs due to globalization.
Ban semi-automatics; but allow concealed carry.
Voted YES on regulating tobacco as a drug. (Apr 2009)
Voted YES on expanding the Children's Health Insurance Program. (Jan 2009)
Voted YES on overriding veto on expansion of Medicare. (Jul 2008)
Voted YES on giving mental health full equity with physical health. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on Veto override: Extend SCHIP to cover 6M more kids. (Jan 2008)
Voted YES on adding 2 to 4 million children to SCHIP eligibility. (Oct 2007)
Voted YES on requiring negotiated Rx prices for Medicare part D. (Jan 2007)
Better and immediate funding for Medicare & Medicaid. (Dec 2000)
Prescription drug benefit within Medicare. (Jun 2000)
Remove restrictions on estriol (menopause medication). (Jun 2008)

More of a big government Neo Con. She was a Democrat version of McCain. I guess anyone not of our ilk is "Liberal" but, she wasn't a Pelosi type.

Feeding the Abscess
01-10-2011, 03:30 AM
Huh? Seems much big govt liberal to me:
http://www.ontheissues.org/house/Gabby_Giffords.htm
Abortions should always be legally available. (Nov 2000)
Voted YES on $192B additional anti-recession stimulus spending. (Jul 2009)
Voted YES on modifying bankruptcy rules to avoid mortgage foreclosures. (Mar 2009)
Voted YES on additional $825 billion for economic recovery package. (Jan 2009)
Voted YES on $60B stimulus package for jobs, infrastructure, & energy. (Sep 2008)
Voted YES on defining "energy emergency" on federal gas prices. (Jun 2008)
Voted YES on revitalizing severely distressed public housing. (Jan 2008)
Voted YES on regulating the subprime mortgage industry. (Nov 2007)
Civil unions ok; marriage definition not ok. (Nov 2000)
ENDA: prohibit employment discrimination for gays. (Jun 2009)
Voted YES on enforcing against anti-gay hate crimes. (Apr 2009)
Voted YES on $40B for green public schools. (May 2009)
Voted YES on enforcing limits on CO2 global warming pollution. (Jun 2009)
Voted YES on assisting workers who lose jobs due to globalization.
Ban semi-automatics; but allow concealed carry.
Voted YES on regulating tobacco as a drug. (Apr 2009)
Voted YES on expanding the Children's Health Insurance Program. (Jan 2009)
Voted YES on overriding veto on expansion of Medicare. (Jul 2008)
Voted YES on giving mental health full equity with physical health. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on Veto override: Extend SCHIP to cover 6M more kids. (Jan 2008)
Voted YES on adding 2 to 4 million children to SCHIP eligibility. (Oct 2007)
Voted YES on requiring negotiated Rx prices for Medicare part D. (Jan 2007)
Better and immediate funding for Medicare & Medicaid. (Dec 2000)
Prescription drug benefit within Medicare. (Jun 2000)
Remove restrictions on estriol (menopause medication). (Jun 2008)

Getting government out of abortion would be small government position. On this issue, pro-life folks are big government.

Which is fine. But let's not conflate getting the government out of restricting behavior and government restricting behavior.

Matt Collins
01-10-2011, 09:37 AM
Getting government out of abortion would be small government position. On this issue, pro-life folks are big government.

Which is fine. But let's not conflate getting the government out of restricting behavior and government restricting behavior.
I'm probably going to regret making this statement here, but oh well.

The government's job is to secure individual rights which means making murder illegal. 'Getting the government out of abortion' as you have suggested is anarchy where the person with the most guns wins by force. The federal government has NO BUSINESS being involved in murder or abortion, however every state government should outlaw it because it clearly infringes on the individual right of the unborn life.

Matt Collins
01-10-2011, 09:39 AM
More of a big government Neo Con. She was a Democrat version of McCain. I guess anyone not of our ilk is "Liberal" but, she wasn't a Pelosi type.
This might explain some of the confusion in terminology:










http://libertarianmajority.wdfiles.com/local--files/platform-portal/NolanChart.png

Brett85
01-10-2011, 09:40 AM
I'm probably going to regret making this statement here, but oh well.

The government's job is to secure individual rights which means making murder illegal. 'Getting the government out of abortion' as you have suggested is anarchy where the person with the most guns wins by force. The federal government has NO BUSINESS being involved in murder or abortion, however every state government should outlaw it because it clearly infringes on the individual right of the unborn life.

Great post. I absolutely agree. We must defend life at all stages.

TheDriver
01-10-2011, 10:31 AM
Anyone who votes to bailout banks is economically, very liberal!

BamaFanNKy
01-10-2011, 11:01 AM
This might explain some of the confusion in terminology:










http://libertarianmajority.wdfiles.com/local--files/platform-portal/NolanChart.png

True. That's why it's tough for me to say I am Conservative when I am more 'Libertarian.' Sucks that it's party is run by people who can't get anyone elected.

Brett85
01-10-2011, 11:43 AM
True. That's why it's tough for me to say I am Conservative when I am more 'Libertarian.' Sucks that it's party is run by people who can't get anyone elected.

Yeah. I'm the same way. I have to call myself a "conservative" because you can never be "pure enough" to call yourself a libertarian. People have called me a "statist" here for supporting drunk driving laws and traffic lights.

TheDriver
01-10-2011, 11:53 AM
Yeah. I'm the same way. I have to call myself a "conservative" because you can never be "pure enough" to call yourself a libertarian. People have called me a "statist" here for supporting drunk driving laws and traffic lights.

Libertarian doesn't fit me either (although I do sometimes refer to myself as one), mainly because of immigration and a few other issues. I don't support drunk driving laws, but I do support traffic lights (except those that give you a red arrow for turns). There's nothing I hate more that sitting at a traffic light, when nothing is coming, while there is a green light for forward, there is a red arrow preventing a left turn. I feel insulted sitting there waiting for the signal.

RonPaulFanInGA
01-10-2011, 12:08 PM
I have to call myself a "conservative" because you can never be "pure enough" to call yourself a libertarian. People have called me a "statist" here for supporting drunk driving laws and traffic lights.

Same here.

Advocated here at one point or another: legalization of child porn, drunk driving and animal cruelty. If this is what the Libertarian party itself believes; than they deserve all those past and future electoral losses.

sailingaway
01-10-2011, 12:09 PM
Same here.

Advocated here at one point or another: legalization of child porn, drunk driving and animal cruelty. If this is what the Libertarian party itself believes; than they deserve all those past and future electoral losses.

Some of those are trolls.

MRoCkEd
01-10-2011, 12:13 PM
All of us are extreme libertarians to the general public. Some of us only seem like conservatives or statists when compared to pure anarchists.

Brett85
01-10-2011, 12:16 PM
Same here.

Advocated here at one point or another: legalization of child porn, drunk driving and animal cruelty. If this is what the Libertarian party itself believes; than they deserve all those past and future electoral losses.

There's many people here who advocate abolishing all government including the police. I'm frankly scared of some of the people who post here.

Brett85
01-10-2011, 12:18 PM
All of us are extreme libertarians to the general public. Some of us only seem like conservatives or statists when compared to pure anarchists.

Yep. I had a debate with my liberal uncle on Facebook, and he basically called me an anarchist. There's been people here who have criticized me simply for saying that we should vote politicians out of office.

amy31416
01-10-2011, 12:25 PM
......

TheDriver
01-10-2011, 12:28 PM
All of us are extreme libertarians to the general public. Some of us only seem like conservatives or statists when compared to pure anarchists.

Nice point.

Matt Collins
01-10-2011, 12:29 PM
There's many people here who advocate abolishing all government including the police. I'm frankly scared of some of the people who post here.
Yeah, that's anarchy, not libertarianism.

Brett85
01-10-2011, 12:39 PM
I didn't comment throughout those threads, but I read them--and you know that's disingenuous, and an intentional misinterpretation. You've said it several times, and you should probably keep your big yap shut because you're the one making us look bad now by continually mentioning it in publicly viewed threads as if it were truth.

That's false. The 1st thread was actually deleted by the moderators and several people were banned. I was told by a moderator that several people excaped simply because they were senior members. Also, I only created my signature because of the signature that SpecsAreGood created. I will delete mine as soon as he deletes his.

amy31416
01-10-2011, 12:46 PM
....

specsaregood
01-10-2011, 12:48 PM
That's false. The 1st thread was actually deleted by the moderators and several people were banned. I was told by a moderator that several people excaped simply because they were senior members. Also, I only created my signature because of the signature that SpecsAreGood created. I will delete mine as soon as he deletes his.

I have no problem with my words in your signature, as I advocated no violence. Go ahead and keep it there. I simply made a historical observation and posed a question as to philosophy and justification. You on the otherhand wished people luck in killing federal officials encouraging violence.

torchbearer
01-10-2011, 12:50 PM
I look at it like this- even if every person in the federal government was removed tomorrow, you'd still have the same voting population voting the same crap back in.
you have to change the people to change the government.

TheDriver
01-10-2011, 12:53 PM
Back on topic:

I found this on the comments section from the article and I think it hits on something Trey seems to ignore - his dirty, filthy side.

“That is something she and I have been quite passionate about — to run for office in the right way and for the right reasons,” Grayson said.

What?

Trey, like lying about the killing of the unborn? I mean come on, I know you didn’t start it (Bill Johnson did) but you jumped-in on it, even sending mailers to hundreds of thousands of Kentuckians saying Paul supported abortion, when you knew it was a lie!

Run for office the right way, my as$. You and Jack Conway both refused to run on your establishment merits, you instead choose to lie, smear, backstab and cheat.

Stay out of politics a long time, please.

Brett85
01-10-2011, 12:53 PM
I have no problem with my words in your signature, as I advocated no violence. Go ahead and keep it there. I simply made a historical observation and posed a question as to philosophy and justification. You on the otherhand wished people luck in killing federal officials encouraging violence.

Well I'm offering you a truce where we both remove our signatures and no longer bring this up. Apparently you're not interested in that.

Original_Intent
01-10-2011, 01:05 PM
Getting government out of abortion would be small government position. On this issue, pro-life folks are big government.

Which is fine. But let's not conflate getting the government out of restricting behavior and government restricting behavior.

Also, the position "abortion should always be available" is NOT necessarily a "get government out of abortion" position. It sounds more like a big government mandate to make sure abortions are always available, i.e. planned parenthood.

angelatc
01-10-2011, 01:20 PM
Gifford was not a liberal.

She's not a progressive. She's a "moderate Democrat" which to me only means she can't be as liberal as she would like because her base is conservative.

Brett85
01-10-2011, 01:34 PM
I have no problem with my words in your signature, as I advocated no violence. Go ahead and keep it there. I simply made a historical observation and posed a question as to philosophy and justification. You on the otherhand wished people luck in killing federal officials encouraging violence.

Also, the words that you say I used are not on any of these threads. As far as I'm concerned you just made it up.

Brian4Liberty
01-10-2011, 02:01 PM
“After you get settled, I would love to talk about what we can do to promote centrism and moderation."

Liberals are always all about moderation and centrism when they're the minority. I have no interest in being a moderate.

Back on topic, CNN just ran a story with that same quote. They are using it as a subtle smear on Rand.

Matt Collins
01-10-2011, 07:21 PM
True. That's why it's tough for me to say I am Conservative when I am more 'Libertarian.' Sucks that it's party is run by people who can't get anyone elected.I agree, but it is more than that though. The two parties have a duopoly and do not allow access or credibility for 3rd party candidates most of the time, even when they are legitimate. :(

Brett85
01-10-2011, 10:25 PM
Yeah, that's anarchy, not libertarianism.

Some people have told me that anarchy is the pure form of libertarianism.

Matt Collins
01-10-2011, 10:31 PM
Some people have told me that anarchy is the pure form of libertarianism.
Libertarianism |= anarchy. If they were the same thing, then there wouldn't be two separate words for it.

Anarchy is thug rule, the person with the most or biggest guns wins. Libertarianism means that your rights cannot be infringed upon by neither others, nor the government (unless of course you infringe on the rights of others first - thus the nonaggression axiom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_axiom)).

Imperial
01-10-2011, 11:18 PM
I found this on the comments section from the article and I think it hits on something Trey seems to ignore - his dirty, filthy side.

“That is something she and I have been quite passionate about — to run for office in the right way and for the right reasons,” Grayson said.

What?

Trey, like lying about the killing of the unborn? I mean come on, I know you didn’t start it (Bill Johnson did) but you jumped-in on it, even sending mailers to hundreds of thousands of Kentuckians saying Paul supported abortion, when you knew it was a lie!

Run for office the right way, my as$. You and Jack Conway both refused to run on your establishment merits, you instead choose to lie, smear, backstab and cheat.

Stay out of politics a long time, please.

To be fair, Rand did not run the most honest campaign either by this standard. Rand ran against Trey accepting money from bailout-voting Senators and then accepted said money after the primary.

Bman
01-10-2011, 11:22 PM
Liberals are always all about moderation and centrism when they're the minority. I have no interest in being a moderate.

Me neither. I want the complete suspense of anything right now that would suggest growing the size of government. How nice would it be for once to hear the spending in this bill is negative.

steph3n
01-11-2011, 07:13 AM
I look at it like this- even if every person in the federal government was removed tomorrow, you'd still have the same voting population voting the same crap back in.
you have to change the people to change the government.

As typical, the torch is right! This hits the nail on the head, the people are the problem, their eyes are closed, and some like sleeping.

RyanRSheets
01-11-2011, 09:29 AM
Libertarianism |= anarchy. If they were the same thing, then there wouldn't be two separate words for it.

Anarchy is thug rule, the person with the most or biggest guns wins. Libertarianism means that your rights cannot be infringed upon by neither others, nor the government (unless of course you infringe on the rights of others first - thus the nonaggression axiom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_axiom)).

The non-aggression axiom requires that taxation be voluntary. Government is thug rule. They have bigger guns, so I pay taxes.

RyanRSheets
01-11-2011, 09:35 AM
Gifford was not a liberal.

I hate that the word Liberal has come to mean left-Statist. The root of the word suggests that it should mean approximately the same as Libertarian, and in history, it did. I refuse to grant a Statist such a title.

As for what we should call her: acceptable or unacceptable. How much damage did her votes do? Is there a better, viable option?

Brett85
01-11-2011, 11:26 AM
The non-aggression axiom requires that taxation be voluntary. Government is thug rule. They have bigger guns, so I pay taxes.

If taxation must be voluntary, then you shouldn't expect the police to come help you out if somebody robs your house.

torchbearer
01-11-2011, 12:37 PM
If taxation must be voluntary, then you shouldn't expect the police to come help you out if somebody robs your house.

police don't protect you, they are there to gather evidence/clean up the mess for the d.a. and works as an extension of the courts.
you are an after-thought.

Matt Collins
01-11-2011, 01:59 PM
The non-aggression axiom requires that taxation be voluntary. Government is thug rule. They have bigger guns, so I pay taxes.
Government doesn't always require taxation. User fees work.

jmdrake
01-11-2011, 02:47 PM
Yeah. I'm the same way. I have to call myself a "conservative" because you can never be "pure enough" to call yourself a libertarian. People have called me a "statist" here for supporting drunk driving laws and traffic lights.

I'm not an anarchist or a libertarian for that matter. But here's what life would look like without traffic lights. Surprisingly it works.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPModTuJA_M&NR

jmdrake
01-11-2011, 02:49 PM
I'm probably going to regret making this statement here, but oh well.

The government's job is to secure individual rights which means making murder illegal. 'Getting the government out of abortion' as you have suggested is anarchy where the person with the most guns wins by force. The federal government has NO BUSINESS being involved in murder or abortion, however every state government should outlaw it because it clearly infringes on the individual right of the unborn life.

Good post! You shouldn't have to regret stating Ron and Rand Paul's position on abortion on a Ron/Rand Paul forum. Everybody doesn't have to agree with the Pauls on this point. But the vitriol that sometimes gets spread around here on this and other issues is regrettable.

jmdrake
01-11-2011, 02:58 PM
Same here.

Advocated here at one point or another: legalization of child porn, drunk driving and animal cruelty. If this is what the Libertarian party itself believes; than they deserve all those past and future electoral losses.

For the record on animal cruelty, I don't mind that staying against the law. I do mind conflating a duty to be kind to animals with the idea that animals have "rights". If you can eat something and/or kill it with impunity, what difference does it make to it that you are "nice" to it first? I don't think "nice cannibalism" would be acceptable. I found it scary that in one of the Michael Vick threads someone suggested that killing a fetus should be legal while killing a dog is the worst thing ever. :eek:

Brett85
01-11-2011, 03:08 PM
For the record on animal cruelty, I don't mind that staying against the law. I do mind conflating a duty to be kind to animals with the idea that animals have "rights". If you can eat something and/or kill it with impunity, what difference does it make to it that you are "nice" to it first? I don't think "nice cannibalism" would be acceptable. I found it scary that in one of the Michael Vick threads someone suggested that killing a fetus should be legal while killing a dog is the worst thing ever. :eek:

My position is that animals don't have "rights" that are granted to them by the Constitution, but they do have rights that we as people have given them. I don't really see anything wrong with laws against things like dog fighting at the state level.

Matt Collins
01-11-2011, 03:11 PM
My position is that animals don't have "rights" that are granted to them by the Constitution, The Constitution doesn't grant rights, it merely restrains government.

Brett85
01-11-2011, 03:11 PM
I'm not an anarchist or a libertarian for that matter. But here's what life would look like without traffic lights. Surprisingly it works.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPModTuJA_M&NR

I don't think that I would enjoy honking my horn constantly. I just don't think there's any way that would actually work in New York City or Chicago.

Brett85
01-11-2011, 03:13 PM
The Constitution doesn't grant rights, it merely restrains government.

Well the Bill of Rights enumerates rights that can't be taken away. The federal government is supposed to be restrained by the 10th amendment, but I think that the states have more power than the federal government has when it comes to laws against certain behavior.

jmdrake
01-11-2011, 03:27 PM
I don't think that I would enjoy honking my horn constantly. I just don't think there's any way that would actually work in New York City or Chicago.

Well the only way to know for sure would be to experiment and/or simulate it. I've only driven in New York once. I remember 8 lanes of traffic merging into 4 in order to go through the Lincoln tunnel. I'm not sure how that worked by somehow it did. Where I live now traffic lights occasionally get knocked out due to storms. People make that work even in heavy traffic. By contrast sometimes traffic lights snarl traffic because people trying to go through in one direction get stopped by the light at the next block, but are still stuck blocking traffic coming the other direction. (I wish I had a picture to explain this). Anyway it's not a major issue for me.

Matt Collins
01-11-2011, 04:11 PM
I don't think that I would enjoy honking my horn constantly. I just don't think there's any way that would actually work in New York City or Chicago.
This was done in Germany:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2010/0331/What-happens-when-you-remove-all-traffic-signs-A-German-town-finds-out