Frum on whether the Founding Fathers were "libertarians"

[cavalier973]

http://www.frumforum.com/were-the-founding-fathers-libertarian

Of course, "libertarianism" is a relatively new label for an old philosophy. Some of the Founding Fathers would fit right in with the modern liberty movement, some of them would be horrified, I'm sure.

Edit: I'm wrong about the term "libertarianism" being relatively new. It actually goes back to the Enlightenment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

[t0rnado]

The concept of libertarianism isn't new at all. The idea that people should be able to do as they please as long they don't impede upon the rights of others has been around for centuries.

You could simply look at the writings of Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, and others to see that, if they were alive today, they would agree with Ron Paul and others in the libertarian movement.

[low preference guy]

Frum apparently haven't read the declaration of independence.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

I personally loved little gem in the comment section:


Has anyone else noticed the absurd elite circlejerk that one NY Mag article has enabled?

To paraphrase Stefan Molyneux, Frum is a State-sucking, assclown, toady-lackey of the Ruling Class.

[Anti Federalist]

I personally loved little gem in the comment section:



To paraphrase Stefan Molyneux, Frum is a State-sucking, assclown, toady-lackey of the Ruling Class.

Which then begs the larger question, why does anybody care what this piece of shit has to say about anything?

ETA - In glancing over this, it's not clear that I'm referring to Frum as the PoS and not Stefan Molyneux.

Frum is who I mean.

[GunnyFreedom]

Which then begs the larger question, why does anybody care what this piece of shit has to say about anything?

I assume because gathering intelligence against an enemy is one of the keys to victory?

[Cowlesy]

Dave Frum's anti-liberty, pro-Imperial writings far outweigh the few and far between good things he writes. I do not read him and do not consider his views on 18th Century America or the philosophy of liberty to be relevant.

[specsaregood]

//

[Cowlesy]

I assume because gathering intelligence against an enemy is one of the keys to victory?

I'm not sure he's worth our time. I completely agree with your assertion that knowing the opposition is a key to victory, I just think we'll save time/resources picking off Romney/Huckabee followers compared to the relatively few and concrete in their views followers of Frum.

[GunnyFreedom]

Is it possible to gather intelligence from a moron?

No. But you can gather intelligence ON a moron. ;)

[GunnyFreedom]

I'm not sure he's worth our time. I completely agree with your assertion that knowing the opposition is a key to victory, I just think we'll save time/resources picking off Romney/Huckabee followers compared to the relatively few and concrete in their views followers of Frum.

Traditionally, an IPB (Intelligence Preparation of the Battlefield) accounts for a wide range of datasets. Frum, I believe, would be data regarding 'support services' carrying the analogy from wartime intelligence.

In a war, you gather intelligence on the enemy infantry and mechanized forces. That would be Romney/Huckabee. But you ALSO gather intelligence on their fuel depots and lines of foodstuff logistics. That would be Frum/Levin etc.

[Cowlesy]

Traditionally, an IPB (Intelligence Preparation of the Battlefield) accounts for a wide range of datasets. Frum, I believe, would be data regarding 'support services' carrying the analogy from wartime intelligence.

In a war, you gather intelligence on the enemy infantry and mechanized forces. That would be Romney/Huckabee. But you ALSO gather intelligence on their fuel depots and lines of foodstuff logistics. That would be Frum/Levin etc.

Sorry, I still think David Frum is the wrong one to look at. If you want to look at 'fuel depots' and 'lines of foodstuff' logistics, look to Foreign Policy Initiative, Hudson Institute, American Enterprise Institute, Hoover Institution and the Heritage Foundation.

[GunnyFreedom]

Sorry, I still think David Frum is the wrong one to look at. If you want to look at 'fuel depots' and 'lines of foodstuff' logistics, look to Foreign Policy Initiative, Hudson Institute, American Enterprise Institute, Hoover Institution and the Heritage Foundation.

Them too, I agree. An IPB should not neglect any point of data whatsoever. IPB's tend to be rather voluminous, but having all relevant data at the fingertips is a huge help to commanders on the ground.

[Southron]

Libertarian political philosophy does not have to be joined with libertarian psychology.

He also tries to say that Calvinism is incompatible with libertarian ideas, and I disagree. A good understanding of the nature of man, should cause you to have more caution in giving fallen men unrestrained power.

[EndDaFed]

Why would libertarians want to claim the founders in the first place? Why look to the past when you can focus on the future,

[lester1/2jr]

thak you canadian machevellian for educating us about libertarianianism and our founding fathers. I'll take the ron paul sticker off my car right away. boy is my face red.

[Legend1104]

He also seems to believe that libertarianism equals anarchism.

[MaxPower]

The Founding Fathers as a group were by no means a chorus of doctrinaire libertarians, but the central ideas they rallied around in the revolution (opposition to arbitrary power, belief in negative/natural rights) were libertarian ones, and most of the core group of founders would fall at least broadly within the category of libertarianism more so than "conservatism" or "liberalism" as they are generally understood today. Moreover, libertarianism is the only political philosophy in the modern spectrum which is compatible with the Constitution- "liberalism" demands expansive government economic control and legal positivism, in opposition to the enumerated powers doctrine and 10th amendment, while "conservatism" attacks the liberties protected by Habeas Corpus and the fourth-through-eighth amendments. I daresay libertarianism does have the best claim to being the "true" founding philosophy of the United States.

[StilesBC]

Because most people hold the founding fathers in high regard, yet unknowingly support numerous issues that are in direct opposition to their principles. People dislike being called hypocrites. So if they are told they can either support neocons/social dems OR the founding fathers, but not both, perhaps they will inquire further on libertarian alternatives to the present duopoly.

[Brian4Liberty]

Is it possible to gather intelligence from a moron?

Lol! Good one...

[Brian4Liberty]

No. But you can gather intelligence ON a moron. ;)

Of course. And we have a lot of them to cover...