PDA

View Full Version : Countries with big government prosper?




nodeal
12-19-2010, 03:21 PM
So, I'm trying to spread the message of liberty, trying to get the good word out there but I'm met with harsh opposition.

The newest argument I have come across:

"Some of the highest per capita GDP countries have much greater government regulation and intervention than the US. Countries such as Norway, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Netherlands and Japan have very high GDP per capita--close to or above the US'--with nevertheless larger or much larger/ more interventionist governments. There is a similar situation when we measure economic growth.

In all rich countries, including the US, government has grown tremendously over the last 100 years, and yet economies have continued to grow and per capita wealth has continued to grow as well."

In other words, my friend is pointing out that countries with big governments show positive results. According to him, there is a correlation between economic growth and an increase in government intervention. Countries that have larger governments than America out-perform the U.S. economically.

How would you respond?

Fozz
12-19-2010, 03:35 PM
Also, some of these countries are a fraction of America's size and much more homogeneous in culture and style of living, so it is unfair to compare per capita GDP between the US and a country like Luxembourg.

Yes, government has grown, but we've also industrialized, with a much higher productive capacity than 100 years ago. Ron Paul in his manifesto refers to the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy in which liberals claim that we're richer now with bigger government than before, so therefore, big government made our country wealthy.

By the way, some of these countries are not great examples. Japan has had slow economic growth for the past two decades.

Others still rank very high on the index of economic freedom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom_historical_rankings

cswake
12-19-2010, 03:45 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?272887-Evidence-that-libertarian-states-are-more-prosperous

nodeal
12-19-2010, 04:05 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?272887-Evidence-that-libertarian-states-are-more-prosperous

WOW. Thanks!

forsmant
12-19-2010, 04:08 PM
Maybe the big governments states have regulated the market to have industrial cartels and defacto national monopolies. State capitalism is nothing if not efficient.

hazek
12-19-2010, 04:10 PM
I say wait a few more years. Almost all European countries are super shaky atm even if it doesn't look like it to you outsiders.

sevin
12-19-2010, 05:10 PM
"Some of the highest per capita GDP countries have much greater government regulation and intervention than the US. Countries such as Norway, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Netherlands and Japan have very high GDP per capita--close to or above the US'--with nevertheless larger or much larger/ more interventionist governments. There is a similar situation when we measure economic growth.

In all rich countries, including the US, government has grown tremendously over the last 100 years, and yet economies have continued to grow and per capita wealth has continued to grow as well."

In other words, my friend is pointing out that countries with big governments show positive results. According to him, there is a correlation between economic growth and an increase in government intervention. Countries that have larger governments than America out-perform the U.S. economically.

How would you respond?


Those governments only got as large as they did because the countries used to be more free. It's a cycle: Freedom --> more government (and prosperity at the same time, which seems like a paradox) --> less freedom --> economic disaster, and it starts all over again.

The government that starts out the smallest ends up the largest. Think about that.

Sentient Void
12-19-2010, 05:18 PM
Also, some of these countries are a fraction of America's size and much more homogeneous in culture and style of living, so it is unfair to compare per capita GDP between the US and a country like Luxembourg.

Yes, government has grown, but we've also industrialized, with a much higher productive capacity than 100 years ago. Ron Paul in his manifesto refers to the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy in which liberals claim that we're richer now with bigger government than before, so therefore, big government made our country wealthy.

By the way, some of these countries are not great examples. Japan has had slow economic growth for the past two decades.

Others still rank very high on the index of economic freedom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom_historical_rankings

Absolutely.

Also, based on his statement that 'there is a correlation between economic growth and an increase in government intervention', it should logically follow that places like Cuba, North Korea, and former Soviet Union and old Maoist China (which is no longer Communist BTW, but in many ways more capitalistic than the US, while also having a state-controlled economy in others) should be the most prosperous and economically powerful countries that ever existed.

I think it's safe to say that he's wrong and doesn't know WTF he's talking about.

Also, as for the Scandinavian countries like Sweden and norway, this:

http://mises.org/daily/4146

As for Canada, they have been gaining more economic freedom over time - and are currently listed as more 'economically free' via the Economic Freedom Index (from the Heritage Foundation) than even the Unite States. Canada is moving in the opposite direction of us, and becoming more prosperous, while we're becoming less.

Keith and stuff
12-20-2010, 11:01 AM
Your friend is completely wrong. The least restrictive places on earth, like New Hampshire, US, Switzerland, Canada, Norway, Hong Kong and Singapore tend to be near the highest earning and most prosperous in the region. Where as the least free (most of central and South America, all of Africa, parts of Asian) tend to be 3rd world nations full of poor people.

Chester Copperpot
12-20-2010, 11:50 AM
GDP is such a joke. id like to see the GNP figures for all these countries and find out whats really going on...

nodeal
12-20-2010, 01:09 PM
Absolutely.

Also, based on his statement that 'there is a correlation between economic growth and an increase in government intervention', it should logically follow that places like Cuba, North Korea, and former Soviet Union and old Maoist China (which is no longer Communist BTW, but in many ways more capitalistic than the US, while also having a state-controlled economy in others) should be the most prosperous and economically powerful countries that ever existed.

I think it's safe to say that he's wrong and doesn't know WTF he's talking about.

Also, as for the Scandinavian countries like Sweden and norway, this:

http://mises.org/daily/4146

As for Canada, they have been gaining more economic freedom over time - and are currently listed as more 'economically free' via the Economic Freedom Index (from the Heritage Foundation) than even the Unite States. Canada is moving in the opposite direction of us, and becoming more prosperous, while we're becoming less.

BOOM.

Thank you for that article! Clarifies a lot for me!

Zatch
12-20-2010, 01:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M68TfgP36po