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RonPaulFanInGA
12-16-2010, 03:36 PM
http://www.caaflog.com/


LTC Lakin, convicted on all counts by a general court-martial, has been sentenced.

The sentence is a dismissal, confinement for six months, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances.

HOLLYWOOD
12-16-2010, 07:07 PM
This country is frigin a circus... they the US Military is a Communistic socially engineered society. Associated Press is your monopoly globalist cabal painting the statist picture too. Funny how a 4 star calls Obama a Bafoon and he just get's to retire. Lt Colonel and it's in the brig.

Here's the scoop:

Military jury: Prison, dismissal for Army Birther



http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20101216/capt.4928bd0a11dc41bc97280a87dd757349-4928bd0a11dc41bc97280a87dd757349-0.jpg?x=213&y=262&xc=1&yc=1&wc=333&hc=410&q=85&sig=2fOhiwR99JPieTkQxiv0Lg-- (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Army-Lt-Col-Terrence-Lakin-Greeley-Colo-left-leaves-military/photo//101216/480/urn_publicid_ap_org4928bd0a11dc41bc97280a87dd75734 9//s:/ap/20101216/ap_on_re_us/us_army_birther)

AP – Army Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin of Greeley, Colo., left, leaves a military court after being found guilty …

By JESSICA GRESKO, Associated Press Jessica Gresko, Associated Press – 36 mins ago

FORT MEADE, Md. – An Army doctor[ (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101216/ap_on_re_us/us_army_birther#) who disobeyed orders to deploy to Afghanistan because he questioned President Barack Obama's eligibility to be commander in chief was sentenced by a jury Thursday to six months in a military prison and dismissal from the Army.
The military jury spent nearly five hours deliberating punishment for Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin on Thursday after three days of court martial proceedings at Fort Meade, outside Baltimore.
Lakin was convicted of disobeying orders — he had pleaded guilty to that count — and missing a flight that would have gotten him to his eventual deployment. An Army]commander (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101216/ap_on_re_us/us_army_birther#), Maj. Gen. Karl Horst, still has to approve the sentence returned by the jury. Upon approval of the sentence, Lakin is granted an automatic appeal that would be considered by the Army Court of Criminal Appeals. He was to begin serving his sentence immediately.
In online videos posted on YouTube, Lakin (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101216/ap_on_re_us/us_army_birther#) aligned himself with the so-called "birther" movement that questions whether Obama is a natural-born citizen, as the Constitution requires for presidents, and said he was inviting his own court martial.

But Lakin said Wednesday that despite his questions about Obama's eligibility (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101216/ap_on_re_us/us_army_birther#) for office, he was wrong not to follow Army orders. He acknowledged that the Army was the wrong place to raise his concerns about Obama, asked to keep his job and said he was now willing to deploy.
"I don't want it to end this way," Lakin told the jury Wednesday under questioning from his lawyer. "I want to continue to serve."
Military prosecutors disagreed. On Thursday morning, a military prosecutor asked the jury to sentence Lakin to at least two years in a military prison and to dismiss him from the service. It was a sentence he "invited and he earned," military prosecutor Capt. Philip J. O'Beirne told the jury.
The prosecutor said Lakin had other options such as resigning or asking not to be deployed if he had issues with his orders. Instead, he used his deployment earlier this year as a political ploy, O'Beirne said, going to great lengths to create a "spectacle" by informing people of what he was doing.
"He knew exactly what he was doing and he did it anyway," O'Beirne told the jury, asking members to send a message with their sentence and telling them they could "write the headline" that appears in papers about Lakin.

But Lakin's defense attorney, Neal Puckett, asked the jury to be lenient, calling Lakin's case unique. He described the 17-year veteran and Greeley, Colo. man as giving, compassionate and patriotic but also naive in trusting the poor advice of a previous civilian lawyer. He called Lakin the "victim of an obsession," referring to questions about Obama's eligibility, and said he made "one bad decision on one day of his career."
Officials in Hawaii say they have seen and verified Obama's original 1961 birth certificate, which is on record with that state. But birthers have not been satisfied with that assurance or the "Certification of Live Birth" Obama has released. The certification is a digital document that is a record of a person's birth in the state, but the certificate does not list the name of the hospital where Obama's mother (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101216/ap_on_re_us/us_army_birther#) gave birth or the physician who delivered him.

Puckett asked the jury to consider Lakin's wife and three children at Christmas and said he should be allowed to stay in the Army because of his value as a doctor.
"Make him work off his debt to the Army," Puckett said, suggesting Lakin could be sent on multiple deployments.
Lakin's parents declined comment after the proceeding.

oyarde
12-16-2010, 07:11 PM
Three more years and he had full retirement , now he has nothing but prison time .

pcosmar
12-16-2010, 07:17 PM
Three more years and he had full retirement , now he has nothing but prison time .

But perhaps he retains his honor.
;)

VegasPatriot
12-16-2010, 07:24 PM
But perhaps he retains his honor.
;)
+ rep
The oath is an individual obligation.

qh4dotcom
12-16-2010, 07:26 PM
Three more years and he had full retirement , now he has nothing but prison time .

He can write a book after he gets out of jail...and he still has the support of the birther community

tpreitzel
12-16-2010, 07:27 PM
Understandably, Lakin yielded somewhat to pressure from the US Army. Regardless, he retains his dignity and likely has a bright political future ahead of him. The US Army may have ticked off the wrong man. ;) Time will tell.

ArmyCowboy
12-16-2010, 07:56 PM
Lakin took an oath and then chose not to honor that oath.

As a Soldier who has deployed several times in support of military action I don't personally agree with, I have absolutely no respect for Lakin and believe the sentence he received was far too lenient.

oyarde
12-16-2010, 07:58 PM
I dunno that I would say lenient . He has lost a great deal . I do not think a young enlisted guy would have gotten a much different sentence .

pcosmar
12-16-2010, 08:07 PM
Lakin took an oath and then chose not to honor that oath.

As a Soldier who has deployed several times in support of military action I don't personally agree with, I have absolutely no respect for Lakin and believe the sentence he received was far too lenient.

Following "orders" in violation of the oath is not honoring the oath.

What part of the constitution are you defending and protecting?
(Asking as a Nam era vet)

lynnf
12-16-2010, 08:09 PM
But perhaps he retains his honor.
;)

not in my book, at least yet. looks like he already copped out if the report is right:

'But Lakin said Wednesday that despite his questions about Obama's eligibility for office, he was wrong not to follow Army orders. He acknowledged that the Army was the wrong place to raise his concerns about Obama, asked to keep his job and said he was now willing to deploy.
"I don't want it to end this way," Lakin told the jury Wednesday under questioning from his lawyer. "I want to continue to serve." '

Pericles
12-16-2010, 08:09 PM
It is not the way to beat the system. Back in the days of the draft, you could get some Harvard or Yale Law grad pissed about being drafted, who could run circles around a military court - not anymore.

qh4dotcom
12-16-2010, 08:10 PM
Lakin took an oath and then chose not to honor that oath.

As a Soldier who has deployed several times in support of military action I don't personally agree with, I have absolutely no respect for Lakin and believe the sentence he received was far too lenient.

An immigrant from Kenya has no constitutional authority to be giving Lakin nor you orders to deploy....only a natural born citizen president can do so...am I correct?

Inkblots
12-16-2010, 08:17 PM
An immigrant from Kenya has no constitutional authority to be giving Lakin nor you orders to deploy....only a natural born citizen president can do so...am I correct?

Perhaps so, but President Obama isn't a Kenyan immigrant, and no serious person could believe he is.

He was born in Hawaii in 1961. Obama's campaign released his birth certificate in 2008. It was confirmed by the Republican governor of Hawaii to be genuine. There was a birth announcement for Obama in the Honolulu Advertiser in 1961.

That's what is so depressing about Birthers: there's so much direct evidence that they're wrong - what more could they want? The answer, of course, is nothing, because no amount of evidence will convince them they’re wrong. They have rejected objective reality, and substituted their own. This is a very common practice these days, and it really gets me down.

qh4dotcom
12-16-2010, 08:25 PM
Perhaps so, but President Obama isn't a Kenyan immigrant, and no serious person could believe he is.

He was born in Hawaii in 1961. Obama's campaign released his birth certificate in 2008. It was confirmed by the Republican governor of Hawaii to be genuine. There was a birth announcement for Obama in the Honolulu Advertiser in 1961.

That's what is so depressing about Birthers: there's so much direct evidence that they're wrong - what more could they want? The answer, of course, is nothing, because no amount of evidence will convince them they’re wrong. They have rejected objective reality, and substituted their own. This is a very common practice these days, and it really gets me down.

It is not an original birth certificate, it's not a piece of paper from 1961...has no doctor's name nor hospital name, no signature, etc....in other words it does not prove anything.

Also Michelle Obama was caught saying that Barack's home country is Kenya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBJihJBePcs

HOLLYWOOD
12-16-2010, 08:28 PM
It is not the way to beat the system. Back in the days of the draft, you could get some Harvard or Yale Law grad pissed about being drafted, who could run circles around a military court - not anymore.

Yes, the Government at all levels has had decades, even centuries to perfect their racketeering... the judicial branch is just as corrupt as the other two, especially the military courts which are more of a Nazi tribunal.

Pericles
12-16-2010, 08:31 PM
And those pesky Internet Archives with stuff like this:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040627142700/eastandard.net/headlines/news26060403.htm

Inkblots
12-16-2010, 08:33 PM
It is not an original birth certificate, it's not a piece of paper from 1961...has no doctor's name nor hospital name, no signature, etc....in other words it does not prove anything.

Not that arguing with you will do any good, but yes, the copy of his birth certificate released by the Obama campaign is valid proof of citizenship under US law. And gee, if he was born in Kenya, how did an announcement of his birth come to appear in both of Honolulu's newspapers in 1961? Or was his family just thinking ahead, knowing that he was going to one day fraudulently run for President?

I know it doesn't matter, of course. I'm sure you don't accept the reality of any facts that contradict your worldview. And I can't force anyone to end the practice of selective acceptance of reality. But honestly, if you're looking for something to believe, I recommend Christianity - it's much more positive, and also has the advantage of being true.

Inkblots
12-16-2010, 08:35 PM
And those pesky Internet Archives with stuff like this:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040627142700/eastandard.net/headlines/news26060403.htm

Here's your sign: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/ap.asp


the Associated Press made no such reference; the identification of Barack Obama as "Kenyan-born" was added to the Sunday Standard's version of the AP story by someone else (who misspelled the politician's given name as "Barrack" in the process) and is apparently unique to that publication. The full text of the "Jack Ryan Abandons Senate Bid" article as originally issued by the Associated Press is retrievable from the LexisNexis archive of global news sources, and it contains no reference (in the lead-in or elsewhere) to Barack Obama's being "Kenyan-born".

Pericles
12-16-2010, 08:37 PM
Yes, the Government at all levels has had decades, even centuries to perfect their racketeering... the judicial branch is just as corrupt as the other two, especially the military courts which are more of a Nazi tribunal.

The problem with military courts is that they rely on the integrity of the officers who do the Article 32 investigations, and serve on the courts.

osan
12-16-2010, 08:46 PM
We should start a "Hire Terry Lakin" campaign to get him a well paying position at some concern for which his abilities and interests would be well served.

Fuck the military. What assholes.

ArmyCowboy
12-16-2010, 08:46 PM
Following "orders" in violation of the oath is not honoring the oath.

What part of the constitution are you defending and protecting?
(Asking as a Nam era vet)

First of all I don't buy into the whole birther issue.

Secondly, if Lakin had a problem with Obama being the CINC, he should have resigned his commission after the election. He didn't do that. He obeyed the orders until he received an order to deploy.

He has no honor as far as I'm concerned.

low preference guy
12-16-2010, 08:48 PM
Fuck the military. What assholes.

Don't generalize like that. Some are good. We have good members of the military in our forums.

ArmyCowboy
12-16-2010, 08:49 PM
It is not an original birth certificate, it's not a piece of paper from 1961...has no doctor's name nor hospital name, no signature, etc....in other words it does not prove anything.

Also Michelle Obama was caught saying that Barack's home country is Kenya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBJihJBePcs

That Michele Obama quote is so out of context it's insane.

My grandparents immigrated from Greece and my parents considered Greece to be the home country.

I' don't support Obama but the whole birther issues is ridiculous.

ArmyCowboy
12-16-2010, 08:50 PM
We should start a "Hire Terry Lakin" campaign to get him a well paying position at some concern for which his abilities and interests would be well served.

Fuck the military. What assholes.

From someone who has served for nearly 18 years, much appreciated. :rolleyes:

Pericles
12-16-2010, 09:23 PM
Here's your sign: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/ap.asp

the Associated Press made no such reference; the identification of Barack Obama as "Kenyan-born" was added to the Sunday Standard's version of the AP story by someone else (who misspelled the politician's given name as "Barrack" in the process) and is apparently unique to that publication. The full text of the "Jack Ryan Abandons Senate Bid" article as originally issued by the Associated Press is retrievable from the LexisNexis archive of global news sources, and it contains no reference (in the lead-in or elsewhere) to Barack Obama's being "Kenyan-born".

Snopes has zero credibility as a source for truth. Even allowing for the editing of the AP story, unless the archive sites are in on it, too.

I'm not a "birther" but I do believe in Occam's Razor. The easy way to settle the issue - trot out the original and not an extract. Mucho dinero has been spent not to do that, and I do wonder why.

libertarian4321
12-16-2010, 10:15 PM
Lakin took an oath and then chose not to honor that oath.

As a Soldier who has deployed several times in support of military action I don't personally agree with, I have absolutely no respect for Lakin and believe the sentence he received was far too lenient.

Yup.

I've served almost 30 years in the Army, active and reserve.

If I'd been one of the officers deciding Lakin's fate, I would have voted to NAIL HIS ASS.

I'm not a military hard ass, but this guy was way out of line and deserved to get smacked.

I also think he was lucky to get a relatively short confinement term. He could have been brought up on a lot more UCMJ charges, and if the military really wanted to hammer him, he could have ended up spending most of the rest of his life at Leavenworth.

libertarian4321
12-16-2010, 10:22 PM
I've said it before when Lakin was brought up, but it needs saying again.

Soldiers do NOT get to pick and choose when they obey orders from their superiors. If every soldier demanded a court hearing every time he didn't like an order (for whatever reason), the military would cease to function. If you can't follow orders, STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE MILITARY- it ain't that difficult to comprehend.

If Lakin thought Obama was illegitimate, and couldn't serve under him, he could have resigned his commission on election day in 2008.

BTW, the orders Lakin disobeyed did NOT come from Obama, he disobeyed the orders of FELLOW SOLDIERS- the officers appointed over him. Obama did not sign the orders to deploy Lakin. Obama's name did not appear anywhere on his orders. The people who told Lakin when and where he was to show up were SOLDIERS, not Obama.

Lakin is either a pawn of the birther nuts, or was just looking for an excuse to not do the job he was being paid to do- in either case, the military will be better off without him.

qh4dotcom
12-16-2010, 11:27 PM
Bump

coastie
12-16-2010, 11:40 PM
Oh dear, where to begin...


I've said it before when Lakin was brought up, but it needs saying again.

Soldiers do NOT get to pick and choose when they obey orders from their superiors. If every soldier demanded a court hearing every time he didn't like an order (for whatever reason), the military would cease to function. If you can't follow orders, STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE MILITARY- it ain't that difficult to comprehend.

Soldiers do not have to follow illegal orders-your post implies otherwise. He believed the orders were illegal based on the possibility Obama wasn't a US citizen. In all honesty, that has yet to be proven, however, Lakin now is going back on himself, so....well, fuck him.


If Lakin thought Obama was illegitimate, and couldn't serve under him, he could have resigned his commission on election day in 2008.

Agreed


BTW, the orders Lakin disobeyed did NOT come from Obama, he disobeyed the orders of FELLOW SOLDIERS- the officers appointed over him. Obama did not sign the orders to deploy Lakin. Obama's name did not appear anywhere on his orders. The people who told Lakin when and where he was to show up were SOLDIERS, not Obama.

For someone with 30 years of "service"-(sorry, I just spit my Honey Nut Cherrios all over the place with that one..."service", hah!!!), you would know that the orders to deploy to war always come from the President, him being Commander in Chief(of the military) and all.:rolleyes:

So enjoy your 75% of basic pay retirement plan, adjusted for "cost of living" every year, of course. I'm sure you think you "deserve" it. Following orders must be so hard:rolleyes:Oh wait...I did that, too, and got out before I became more of a tax burden for my fellow Americans...

Lakin should have been a real man and stuck to his guns.

Romulus
12-16-2010, 11:43 PM
Here's your sign: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/ap.asp


the Associated Press made no such reference; the identification of Barack Obama as "Kenyan-born" was added to the Sunday Standard's version of the AP story by someone else (who misspelled the politician's given name as "Barrack" in the process) and is apparently unique to that publication. The full text of the "Jack Ryan Abandons Senate Bid" article as originally issued by the Associated Press is retrievable from the LexisNexis archive of global news sources, and it contains no reference (in the lead-in or elsewhere) to Barack Obama's being "Kenyan-born".

Sorry but snopes got caught in a lie. Its even on their own forum. Ironically, search the user 'snopes' and she what he/she posted. They are links to the Supreme Court wesite that show Elaina Kagan on record working for Obama against various birth lawsuits. That's why she was selected.

qh4dotcom
12-16-2010, 11:48 PM
If Lakin thought Obama was illegitimate, and couldn't serve under him, he could have resigned his commission on election day in 2008.


How do you know that in election day 2008 Lakin was aware that Obama was illegitimate? Plenty of folks who are birthers in 2010 were not birthers in 2008, they hadn't heard about the birther evidence back then.

libertarian4321
12-17-2010, 12:38 AM
Soldiers do not have to follow illegal orders-your post implies otherwise. He believed the orders were illegal based on the possibility Obama wasn't a US citizen. In all honesty, that has yet to be proven, however, Lakin now is going back on himself, so....well, fuck him.



I never said soldiers have to follow illegal orders. For example, they do not have to follow orders to slaughter innocent women and children.

However, they do not get to disobey orders of the officer's appointed over them because of some crazy belief they hold. If soldiers got to demand a court case every time they didn't want to follow orders because they believe the CINC had committed some violation of the Constitution, no soldier would EVER have to follow an order. There isn't a President in the history of the USA that a soldier couldn't "question" in this manner, because one could make a theoretical argument that every President has violated the Constitution at some point.

However, the military is NOT A DEBATING SOCIETY. You don't get to play Constitutional lawyer every time you get an order. If you or Lakin or anyone else wants to play these games, get on the RPF and debate, but GET THE HELL OUT OF THE MILITARY.


For someone with 30 years of "service"-(sorry, I just spit my Honey Nut Cherrios all over the place with that one..."service", hah!!!), you would know that the orders to deploy to war always come from the President, him being Commander in Chief(of the military) and all.:rolleyes:

Wrong wrong wrong wrong.

If you'd ever been in the military (the Coast Guard is NOT military, its part of the Dept of Transportation), you'd realize that.

How about this, I'll see you're eye roll and raise you $10,000. I'll bet you $10,000 (or whatever you can afford to lose- and I'll donate half to charity) Obama did NOT cut Lakin's orders. Nor did Obama choose Lakin for deployment, nor did Obama choose Lakin's unit for deployment, nor did Obama's name appear on Lakin's orders.

All those things were done by MILITARY OFFICERS appointed over Lakin. They set the unit rotation. They cut Lakin's orders. They signed the papers. They told him when and where to show up for deployment. It was THEIR orders, not Obama's, that Lakin was charged with disobeying.

BTW, genius, any orders for the war in Afghanistan wouldn't have come from Obama, they would have been from George W. Bush.


So enjoy your 75% of basic pay retirement plan, adjusted for "cost of living" every year, of course. I'm sure you think you "deserve" it. Following orders must be so hard:rolleyes:Oh wait...I did that, too, and got out before I became more of a tax burden for my fellow Americans...

I don't have enough points for a retirement and I don't intend to get them. I got out of the active military after 9 years, then went into the reserves. When Bush started saber rattling about the Iraq war, I got out of the regular reserves and went into the IRR- essentially giving up any realistic chance to be able to retire (in the IRR, you only get token points toward retirement- I'd have to stay in for decades in order to retire at that rate- and I'm not going to do that).

libertarian4321
12-17-2010, 12:44 AM
How do you know that in election day 2008 Lakin was aware that Obama was illegitimate? Plenty of folks who are birthers in 2010 were not birthers in 2008, they hadn't heard about the birther evidence back then.

It's safe to bet that Lakin did not become "suddenly realize" Obama was (in his addled brain) "illegitimate" the same day he got the orders. He could have resigned at any time (he's an officer with no service obligation). He did not do so.

This dip shit could have quietly resigned, instead he decided to play political games.

Big mistake...

Entirely predictable, btw. I don't know who was advising this guy, but he must have been an idiot. Any military officer who'd been in the military more than a couple of weeks could have predicted the results of this fiasco with 100% certainty- as I did many months ago.

The only question was how long this guy was going to spend breaking rocks at Leavenworth- I think he actually got off VERY easy.

coastie
12-17-2010, 01:43 AM
I never said soldiers have to follow illegal orders. For example, they do not have to follow orders to slaughter innocent women and children.- or any other order the soldier truly believes may be illegal.

However, they do not get to disobey orders of the officer's appointed over them because of some crazy belief they hold -considering the evidence out there, it's not merely a "crazy belief"..


If soldiers got to demand a court case every time they didn't want to follow orders because they believe the CINC had committed some violation of the Constitution, no soldier would EVER have to follow an order. There isn't a President in the history of the USA that a soldier couldn't "question" in this manner, because one could make a theoretical argument that every President has violated the Constitution at some point. we're gonna play a game, and see if you catch what you just did here...




Wrong wrong wrong wrong.

If you'd ever been in the military (the Coast Guard is NOT military, its part of the Dept of Transportation), you'd realize that.- ok, now this takes the cake-and I could give a fuck of my "service" in the USCG, which, BTW, GENIUS, has been involved in EVERY major armed conflict the .gov has ever been involved in, with the exception of Afghanistan, obviously. Guess I imagined the military-style boot camp, the deployments, the training while I was in. Funny how the (expired)Military ID in my pocket says "Armed Forces of the United States" in the top right corner, you know, like ALL of the military services do. CG has not been a part of the DOT since 2002-2003, either, it's part of DHS now and actually becomes under the direct command of the US Navy during war. Do at least a little research before you run your mouth, sheesh.


How about this, I'll see you're eye roll and raise you $10,000. I'll bet you $10,000 (or whatever you can afford to lose- and I'll donate half to charity) Obama did NOT cut Lakin's orders. Nor did Obama choose Lakin for deployment, nor did Obama choose Lakin's unit for deployment, nor did Obama's name appear on Lakin's orders.

All those things were done by MILITARY OFFICERS appointed over Lakin. They set the unit rotation. They cut Lakin's orders. They signed the papers. They told him when and where to show up for deployment. It was THEIR orders, not Obama's, that Lakin was charged with disobeying. ok....sooooooo, where do those officers orders come from then????????????????? I guess there's some Rogue Assignment Officer Unit out there, right:confused::rolleyes: Answer that question then ....where do these officers get their orders from????)



BTW, genius, any orders for the war in Afghanistan wouldn't have come from Obama, they would have been from George W. Bush.Look here, genius, Obama is now the CINC, so that makes him...follow along here....oh yeah, THE GUY GIVING FUCKING ORDERS TO THE MILITARY. Are you seriously suggesting here that because GWB started the war, that Obama doesn't have a say in it??? DId the war end during GWB and I missed it? Holy crap man




I don't have enough points for a retirement and I don't intend to get them. I got out of the active military after 9 years, then went into the reserves. When Bush started saber rattling about the Iraq war, I got out of the regular reserves and went into the IRR- essentially giving up any realistic chance to be able to retire (in the IRR, you only get token points toward retirement- I'd have to stay in for decades in order to retire at that rate- and I'm not going to do that).

AHHH, well, you said 30 yrs of service, one assumes full time.

libertarian4321
12-17-2010, 02:54 AM
[QUOTE]ok, now this takes the cake-and I could give a fuck of my "service" in the USCG, which, BTW, GENIUS, has been involved in EVERY major armed conflict the .gov has ever been involved in, with the exception of Afghanistan, obviously.

Yeah, kinda sorta. But unless you were a WWI vet or a WW2 vet, where the CG really did do something, the CG war involvement was mostly jerking off and playing sailor. From all US wars, other than WW1 and WW2, the CG has lost 9 men in combat. Yup, that's 9- a single digit. In other words, someone serving in the CG had only a slightly higher chance than of dying in combat than a florist in Omaha.




CG has not been a part of the DOT since 2002-2003, either, it's part of DHS now and actually becomes under the direct command of the US Navy during war. Do at least a little research before you run your mouth, sheesh.[/B]

Wow, the CG switched from Dept. of Transportation to DHS. How did I miss that big news?


ok....sooooooo, where do those officers orders come from then????????????????? I guess there's some Rogue Assignment Officer Unit out there, right:confused::rolleyes: Answer that question then ....where do these officers get their orders from????)


The broad general initial order to deploy to Afghanistan was given by PRESIDENT BUSH (with the complicity of Congress) to the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld). Rumsfeld then passed the information to the Unified Combatant Command. The UCC representatives then send their directives to the service branches they represent. The leaders of each service then determine what men and materiel they need to deploy to accomplish the mission. They pass that information to their major commands, and down to unit or individual level. Once the initial deployment is complete, the MILITARY and MILITARY OFFICERS decide what troops to deploy, set rotations, etc. The President has NO ROLE in determining what units or what men are deployed.

In other words, neither Bush nor Obama ever "ordered" Lakin or his unit to do anything. Lakin was hammered for failing to refuse the orders of his commander, not for failing to obey Obama.

A soldier has no more right to refuse to deploy because he gets a wild hair up his ass about Birther fantasies than he would have had to refuse to deploy in 2003 because he may have had a wild hair telling him the war in Iraq (or Afghanistan) was "illegal."

Soldiers don't get to make those calls, that is WHY IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE ELECT GOOD LEADERS who won't start bad wars.

The military is not the place to play Constitutional lawyer. If you do, you'll end up in Leavenworth.

Lakin has been around the military for a long time, he should have known better.

He let the birther crazies get in his head and cloud his judgment, and now it's time for him to pay the piper.


Look here, genius, Obama is now the CINC, so that makes him...follow along here....oh yeah, THE GUY GIVING FUCKING ORDERS TO THE MILITARY. Are you seriously suggesting here that because GWB started the war, that Obama doesn't have a say in it??? DId the war end during GWB and I missed it? Holy crap man

Actually, as I said, the President doesn't directly order the military to do anything. He gives directives to the Sec Def, who passes them along to the military. Once the war is up and running, he, at worst, he gives broad general directives.

None of which is relevant to Lakin's birther fantasies, btw.

Well, he'll have plenty of time to think about it at Leavenworth. Six months doesn't sound like much, but I suspect six months at Leavenworth will seem like an eternity. It ain't "club fed." They don't call it the "United States Disciplinary Barracks" for nothing.

RonPaulFanInGA
12-17-2010, 11:47 AM
How do you know that in election day 2008 Lakin was aware that Obama was illegitimate? Plenty of folks who are birthers in 2010 were not birthers in 2008, they hadn't heard about the birther evidence back then.

Lakin: another gullible victim of WorldNetDaily's campaign of disinformation?

coastie
12-17-2010, 12:07 PM
[QUOTE=coastie;3032174]





Yeah, kinda sorta. But unless you were a WWI vet or a WW2 vet, where the CG really did do something, the CG war involvement was mostly jerking off and playing sailor. From all US wars, other than WW1 and WW2, the CG has lost 9 men in combat. Yup, that's 9- a single digit. In other words, someone serving in the CG had only a slightly higher chance than of dying in combat than a florist in Omaha.


Ahh, I see. So, according to you, "service" only "counts" if you have a lot of war dead in the "service" you were in. Got ya. I'll let my 2 uncles know they "jerking off and playing sailor" while in Vietnam in the CG, the one shot in the shoulder while on an '82ft Patrol Boat will think that's particularly funny.





Wow, the CG switched from Dept. of Transportation to DHS. How did I miss that big news?

That would be because you dont research things, you just kinda open your mouth and shit starts falling out. See above for examples.



The broad general initial order to deploy to Afghanistan was given by PRESIDENT BUSH (with the complicity of Congress) to the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld). Rumsfeld then passed the information to the Unified Combatant Command. The UCC representatives then send their directives to the service branches they represent. The leaders of each service then determine what men and materiel they need to deploy to accomplish the mission. They pass that information to their major commands, and down to unit or individual level. Once the initial deployment is complete, the MILITARY and MILITARY OFFICERS decide what troops to deploy, set rotations, etc. The President has NO ROLE in determining what units or what men are deployed.

In other words, neither Bush nor Obama ever "ordered" Lakin or his unit to do anything. Lakin was hammered for failing to refuse the orders of his commander, not for failing to obey Obama.

A soldier has no more right to refuse to deploy because he gets a wild hair up his ass about Birther fantasies than he would have had to refuse to deploy in 2003 because he may have had a wild hair telling him the war in Iraq (or Afghanistan) was "illegal."

Again, you are wrong here, there have been many people who've got out for these very reasons.

Soldiers don't get to make those calls, that is WHY IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE ELECT GOOD LEADERS who won't start bad wars.

The military is not the place to play Constitutional lawyer. If you do, you'll end up in Leavenworth.

Interesting, I refused to take the Swine Flu shot, made a much bigger deal out of it than they wanted and yet, here I sit not in federal prison in Kansas.

Lakin has been around the military for a long time, he should have known better.

He let the birther crazies get in his head and cloud his judgment, and now it's time for him to pay the piper.

Here you go again, with the "birther crazies" and :birther fantasies"...your true issue is with them, which is why you're not making any coherent arguments here.



Actually, as I said, the President doesn't directly order the military to do anything. He gives directives to the Sec Def, who passes them along to the military. Once the war is up and running, he, at worst, he gives broad general directives.

None of which is relevant to Lakin's birther fantasies, btw.

Well, he'll have plenty of time to think about it at Leavenworth. Six months doesn't sound like much, but I suspect six months at Leavenworth will seem like an eternity. It ain't "club fed." They don't call it the "United States Disciplinary Barracks" for nothing.

Spending millions of dollars of your own money(obama) to keep a lid on your birth certificate doesn't ring alarm bells in your head??? You still subscribe to the (now debunked) thing he posted on line a while back that was supposed to be his BC, but wasn't, don't you? Well hey, if sticking your head in the sand makes you feel better about it, have fun and remember to breathe deeply.

ArmyCowboy
12-17-2010, 01:05 PM
How do you know that in election day 2008 Lakin was aware that Obama was illegitimate? Plenty of folks who are birthers in 2010 were not birthers in 2008, they hadn't heard about the birther evidence back then.

Convenient timing, huh?

ArmyCowboy
12-17-2010, 01:19 PM
[QUOTE=libertarian4321;3032201]

Spending millions of dollars of your own money(obama) to keep a lid on your birth certificate doesn't ring alarm bells in your head??? You still subscribe to the (now debunked) thing he posted on line a while back that was supposed to be his BC, but wasn't, don't you? Well hey, if sticking your head in the sand makes you feel better about it, have fun and remember to breathe deeply.

Millions of dollars?

Sure about that?

osan
12-17-2010, 01:44 PM
Lakin took an oath and then chose not to honor that oath.

As a Soldier who has deployed several times in support of military action I don't personally agree with, I have absolutely no respect for Lakin and believe the sentence he received was far too lenient.

You have a lot to learn. Lakin had a very legitimate point. If Obammy is not an American by birth, then he is not the legitimate CIC and his orders are consequently not valid. Following orders to fight in warfare wherein your actions lead to the destruction of other lives, whether directly or merely through support, is very serious business. Doing so casually through blind obedience is bad enough when the source of your orders is demonstrably legitimate. It is far worse when they are not. If you, as a soldier, follow his orders to go there and kill those, and you do so under conditions of uncertaintly such as those Lakin raised, you place yourself behind the 8-ball in a number of ways. If you obey such questionable orders, you become an accessory to murder with no defense for any actions you may have taken under such. If you kill others, you are guilty of murder. This is probably so even if the orders are "legitimate" froma purely moral perspective, but at least there is the legal fiction behind which you may stand for protection. This way, however, your ass is in the wind.

If Obammy is outed, there is nothing AFAIK and in principle to stop the world court from issuing a warrant for your arrest for murder, accessory to murder before and after the fact, crimes against humanity, and so forth. Surely you are not concerned with that, and perhaps rightly so, but the principle is still applicable and the world has a funny way of changing in the most unexpected ways. Thirty years ago few would have envisioned the fall of the Soviet Union, the rise of China, or 9/11. Shit happens and on occasion "vee ver zhust follovink ohduz" fails to cut the mustard. Ask Hitler's buddies about that. Oh wait, they were all executed. Never mind.

Beyond that lies the moral question but we will let that sleep for now.

oyarde
12-17-2010, 01:49 PM
Yup.

I've served almost 30 years in the Army, active and reserve.

If I'd been one of the officers deciding Lakin's fate, I would have voted to NAIL HIS ASS.

I'm not a military hard ass, but this guy was way out of line and deserved to get smacked.

I also think he was lucky to get a relatively short confinement term. He could have been brought up on a lot more UCMJ charges, and if the military really wanted to hammer him, he could have ended up spending most of the rest of his life at Leavenworth.

If they had brought multiple charges , at his age , he would have died there .

Feeding the Abscess
12-17-2010, 01:55 PM
Does anyone have any video of Obama saying that he was born in Kenya at some point? In a serious manner. Otherwise, nobody is going to get behind the cause. Focus on more important issues.

coastie
12-17-2010, 03:37 PM
[QUOTE=coastie;3032537]

Millions of dollars?

Sure about that?

Now that you questioned it, to be honest, no. Are you sure he hasn't?

Pericles
12-17-2010, 05:17 PM
Let's have a look at the oaths used in the Army, first for enlisted:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).


Officer's Oath:



"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)


Note, that in the officer's oath, there is no mention of the President, or any other member of government. The oath is to the Constitution of the United States. What would be the implications of a President later found not to be constitutionally qualified for his office? I'd guess - the new commissions for officers under his term would be questionable (having been confirmed by the Senate [as all officer appointments and promotions are] would tend to negate the question). Direct order issued by an unqualified person could be subject to question, but the general authority of officers is not questioned. While commissions as officers are given in the name of the President, officers have their own authority to issue orders not dependent on Presidential authority. This is different from Non-commissioned officers, whose authority to issue orders to subordinates is in the name of a commander and his authority as a commissioned officer.

ArmyCowboy
12-17-2010, 06:20 PM
Now that you questioned it, to be honest, no. Are you sure he hasn't?

You claimed he spent millions of dollars, and then, when called on it, you want me to prove that he didn't.

Seriously, this makes sense to you as an intellectually honest form of debate?

ArmyCowboy
12-17-2010, 06:22 PM
You have a lot to learn. Lakin had a very legitimate point. If Obammy is not an American by birth, then he is not the legitimate CIC and his orders are consequently not valid. Following orders to fight in warfare wherein your actions lead to the destruction of other lives, whether directly or merely through support, is very serious business. Doing so casually through blind obedience is bad enough when the source of your orders is demonstrably legitimate. It is far worse when they are not. If you, as a soldier, follow his orders to go there and kill those, and you do so under conditions of uncertaintly such as those Lakin raised, you place yourself behind the 8-ball in a number of ways. If you obey such questionable orders, you become an accessory to murder with no defense for any actions you may have taken under such. If you kill others, you are guilty of murder. This is probably so even if the orders are "legitimate" froma purely moral perspective, but at least there is the legal fiction behind which you may stand for protection. This way, however, your ass is in the wind.

If Obammy is outed, there is nothing AFAIK and in principle to stop the world court from issuing a warrant for your arrest for murder, accessory to murder before and after the fact, crimes against humanity, and so forth. Surely you are not concerned with that, and perhaps rightly so, but the principle is still applicable and the world has a funny way of changing in the most unexpected ways. Thirty years ago few would have envisioned the fall of the Soviet Union, the rise of China, or 9/11. Shit happens and on occasion "vee ver zhust follovink ohduz" fails to cut the mustard. Ask Hitler's buddies about that. Oh wait, they were all executed. Never mind.

Beyond that lies the moral question but we will let that sleep for now.

I've been in the Army nearly 18 years and serve in the rank of Master Sergeant. I'm not the one with a lot to learn. Of course, I don't expect someone who says "Fuck the military" to have a thimble full of knowledge about how we operate.

You honestly believe that the President's legitimacy (and I'm not going to give the birther nonsense any legitimacy) determines is an order is lawful?

Nothing has been proven in the case with the birther nonsense.

Lakin's FEELINGS on Obama's legitimacy do not matter. If it is PROVEN that Obama is not native born, then this moron might have had a leg to stand on. It is not.

coastie
12-17-2010, 06:34 PM
[QUOTE=coastie;3032895]

You claimed he spent millions of dollars, and then, when called on it, you want me to prove that he didn't.

Seriously, this makes sense to you as an intellectually honest form of debate?

Reading comprehension owns you, get a clue. I came back and admitted that I wasn't so sure about my number, and merely asked you if you were so sure he didn't spend that number. A simple yes or no would have sufficed, and TBH, I could give a shit if you even answered.

ArmyCowboy
12-17-2010, 06:37 PM
[QUOTE=ArmyCowboy;3033102]

Reading comprehension owns you, get a clue. I came back and admitted that I wasn't so sure about my number, and merely asked you if you were so sure he didn't spend that number. A simple yes or no would have sufficed, and TBH, I could give a shit if you even answered.

Yeah, I'm sure, since he produced it.

There's enough to bash Obama about without going out in left field to do it.

This tends to marginalize you when you present legitimate arguments.

Ask Lakin where tilting at windmills gets you.

coastie
12-17-2010, 06:54 PM
[QUOTE=coastie;3033127]

Yeah, I'm sure, since he produced it.

There's enough to bash Obama about without going out in left field to do it.

This tends to marginalize you when you present legitimate arguments.

Ask Lakin where tilting at windmills gets you.

Since he produced what? This?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/BarackObamaCertificationOfLiveBirthHawaii.jpg/280px-BarackObamaCertificationOfLiveBirthHawaii.jpg

And refuses to publish the one with the hospital name, phys names, etc, like so:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/1961_Hawaii_Certificate_Of_Live_Birth.jpg/280px-1961_Hawaii_Certificate_Of_Live_Birth.jpg

Question is, why? Or do you just take the word of certain people who claim to have seen it personally(the real one) as verification? This falls under, "trust us, because we said it is". When the hell did that become the standard of proving something...

pcosmar
12-17-2010, 07:45 PM
I've been in the Army nearly 18 years
That explains a lot.
I had the good sense to get the fuck out at my first opportunity. I "served" with some real fuckin' idiots the would get a bunch of folks killed for no good reason.
Had I ever gone to combat with them , they would have been the very first casualties. ( I told an Lt. that with a loaded M16 in my hands)

The cluster fuck going into Iraq was no surprise.

osan
12-17-2010, 08:43 PM
Don't generalize like that. Some are good. We have good members of the military in our forums.

Here I refer to the top level administration and not those in the line of fire. I thought that was obvious. Sorry for being unclear.

osan
12-17-2010, 08:51 PM
That explains a lot.
I had the good sense to get the fuck out at my first opportunity. I "served" with some real fuckin' idiots the would get a bunch of folks killed for no good reason.
Had I ever gone to combat with them , they would have been the very first casualties. ( I told an Lt. that with a loaded M16 in my hands)

Such fates were served upon more than a few such imbeciles. I know at least two people who shot and killed their immediate superiors during fights precisely because they were not prepared to die for an idiot.


The cluster fuck going into Iraq was no surprise.

Not to anyone with a minimally functional mind, anyhow.

ArmyCowboy
12-17-2010, 09:16 PM
That explains a lot.
I had the good sense to get the fuck out at my first opportunity. I "served" with some real fuckin' idiots the would get a bunch of folks killed for no good reason.
Had I ever gone to combat with them , they would have been the very first casualties. ( I told an Lt. that with a loaded M16 in my hands)

The cluster fuck going into Iraq was no surprise.

If I had a dollar for every internet tough guy bad ass wanna be who talked big shit about what he would have done.....I wouldn't have to be working now.

ArmyCowboy
12-17-2010, 09:17 PM
Such fates were served upon more than a few such imbeciles. I know at least two people who shot and killed their immediate superiors during fights precisely because they were not prepared to die for an idiot.



Not to anyone with a minimally functional mind, anyhow.

Of course.:cool:

oyarde
12-17-2010, 09:22 PM
Of course.:cool:

I am lost , what was specifically disorganized about Iraq ? Other than the Turks would not allow the 4th Division to come in from the North .

ArmyCowboy
12-17-2010, 09:34 PM
I am lost , what was specifically disorganized about Iraq ? Other than the Turks would not allow the 4th Division to come in from the North .

I was being sarcastic.

We shouldn't have been there and the whole invasion was a huge foreign policy disaster, but as far as the fighting of the war, we blew through the country in a week. It was a strategic masterpiece.

qh4dotcom
12-17-2010, 09:38 PM
That Michele Obama quote is so out of context it's insane.

My grandparents immigrated from Greece and my parents considered Greece to be the home country.

I' don't support Obama but the whole birther issues is ridiculous.

Sorry man, Obama can't have two home countries...either his home country is Kenya, or his home country is the U.S...which one is it? and according to the dictionary "home country" is the country you were born in.

http://www.allwords.com/word-home+country.html

oyarde
12-17-2010, 09:38 PM
If I had a dollar for every internet tough guy bad ass wanna be who talked big shit about what he would have done.....I wouldn't have to be working now.

: ) Just so you know PCOS probably really is an old bad ass . When he says those things , he is likely being truthful and meant it .

oyarde
12-17-2010, 09:40 PM
I was being sarcastic.

We shouldn't have been there and the whole invasion was a huge foreign policy disaster, but as far as the fighting of the war, we blew through the country in a week. It was a strategic masterpiece.

Do not take any of this to heart . The people on the board are very anti intervention ( I am as well ) . It is not directed at you .

ArmyCowboy
12-17-2010, 09:45 PM
Do not take any of this to heart . The people on the board are very anti intervention ( I am as well ) . It is not directed at you .

I am anti-interventionist as well.

The invasion went well but was a bad idea.

It is possible to admit that. :)

ArmyCowboy
12-17-2010, 09:46 PM
Sorry man, Obama can't have two home countries...either his home country is Kenya, or his home country is the U.S...which one is it? and according to the dictionary "home country" is the country you were born in.

http://www.allwords.com/word-home+country.html

Give Michelle a call and ask her what she meant, then.

nobody's_hero
12-17-2010, 09:50 PM
I don't know where Obama was born, but I'm not gonna come down hard on anyone who questions whether someone is legitimately qualified to be the commander in chief of the most fuckin' powerful military the world has ever seen. It might be time to institute some quality-control measures somewhere, ya think?

But, also, if we had a Congress that would actually do anything about it, they'd have impeached Obama/Bush/Clinton/etc. the moment they went off on an unconstitutional tangent, and ineligible birthright would have been far down the list of infractions, after torture and domestic surveillance. Of course, there is a code among thieves, and Congress's hands are just as bloody, so I don't know what standing they'd have left with which to impeach Obama, without the whole thing stinking of hypocrisy.

oyarde
12-17-2010, 09:53 PM
I don't know where Obama was born, but I'm not gonna come down hard on anyone who questions whether someone is legitimately qualified to be the commander in chief of the most fuckin' powerful military the world has ever seen. It might be time to institute some quality-control measures somewhere, ya think?

But, also, if we had a Congress that would actually do anything about it, they'd have impeached Obama/Bush/Clinton/etc. the moment they went off on an unconstitutional tangent, and ineligible birthright would have been far down the list of infractions, after torture and domestic surveillance. Of course, there is a code among thieves, and Congress's hands are just as bloody, so I don't know what standing they'd have left with which to impeach Obama, without the whole thing stinking of hypocrisy.

If we could get a congress to follow the Constitution it would cure about everything .

Pericles
12-17-2010, 10:22 PM
If we could get a congress to follow the Constitution it would cure about everything .

I think you have identified the source of the problem.

ArmyCowboy
12-17-2010, 10:36 PM
I think you have identified the source of the problem.

+1

pcosmar
12-18-2010, 07:41 AM
If I had a dollar for every internet tough guy bad ass wanna be who talked big shit about what he would have done.....I wouldn't have to be working now.

Come see me.
There is a digital trail to my front door.

Bring it.

ArmyCowboy
12-18-2010, 08:55 AM
Come see me.
There is a digital trail to my front door.

Bring it.

:)

AGRP
12-18-2010, 11:12 AM
Rather than requiring Obama to show his Birth Certificate as required by the U.S. Constitution they send a man to prison?

What a country!

ArmyCowboy
12-18-2010, 11:27 AM
Rather than requiring Obama to show his Birth Certificate as required by the U.S. Constitution they send a man to prison?

What a country!

The Constitution requires someone to show their birth certificate?

Really?

libertarian4321
12-19-2010, 12:38 AM
[QUOTE=libertarian4321;3032201]

Spending millions of dollars of your own money(obama) to keep a lid on your birth certificate doesn't ring alarm bells in your head??? You still subscribe to the (now debunked) thing he posted on line a while back that was supposed to be his BC, but wasn't, don't you? Well hey, if sticking your head in the sand makes you feel better about it, have fun and remember to breathe deeply.

No, it doesn't "bug me" at all.

I'd react the same way if a bunch of inbred CT's tried to get me to put up proof of citizenship that is 1) NOT required by law and 2) hasn't been required of any other candidate.

I'd spend the money just to tell the CTs to go fuck themselves.

Plus, this issue helps Obama. People look at the birther nut jobs and the way they are carrying on, and start to believe people are persecuting Obama just because he's black, rather than over his stupid policies.

BTW, if you want to see a logical analysis of why the "birthers" are NUTS, check out this piece from the notoriously "liberal" John Birch Society:

http://www.jbs.org/index.php/us-constitution-blog/4196

Zippyjuan
12-19-2010, 01:01 AM
Lakin knew he was going to lose this one. He served in the military long enough to know that refusing to follow orders was a court martial offense- he said so at one of his first press conferences. He accepted and honored previous orders to deploy and obeyed all orders up until this time and Obama was President for over a year or more before he decided to disobey his orders. Now that he finally realizes the severity of his actions and his loss of benefits including pension and serving prision time, he decides to change his mind? I think he just did not want to go back to Afghanistan (not that I could blame him on that) and was hoping to merely get transfered someplace he would not have to go. Being an officer, the military had to make an example of him.

libertarian4321
12-19-2010, 01:37 AM
If they had brought multiple charges , at his age , he would have died there .

You are right.

The UCMJ is harsh. If taken to the extremes, even minor infractions can lead to brutal prison terms. Lakin could have easily spent the rest of his life in a military prison if they had chosen to go hard. He probably realized he could be facing a very grim future and decided to cut his losses.

You don't do 30 years hard time in Leavenworth over a crazy conspiracy theory unless you are completely insane. I don't think Lakin is insane, just terribly misguided.

libertarian4321
12-19-2010, 01:45 AM
That explains a lot.
I had the good sense to get the fuck out at my first opportunity. I "served" with some real fuckin' idiots the would get a bunch of folks killed for no good reason.
Had I ever gone to combat with them , they would have been the very first casualties. ( I told an Lt. that with a loaded M16 in my hands)

The cluster fuck going into Iraq was no surprise.

I assure you, there are many people serving in the military who are vastly more intelligent than you are.

libertarian4321
12-19-2010, 01:51 AM
I don't know where Obama was born, but I'm not gonna come down hard on anyone who questions whether someone is legitimately qualified to be the commander in chief of the most fuckin' powerful military the world has ever seen. It might be time to institute some quality-control measures somewhere, ya think?



To work to change the current system of checks (which are mentioned in the JBS link I gave above) is rational. To carry on with this "birther" nonsense is not.

Obama won the election and passed the checks that are in place. He is the President and CINC until the next election at a minimum.

So we ought to stop wasting time and resources on this Birther nonsense and focus on POLICY for now, and getting someone better elected later.

libertarian4321
12-19-2010, 01:55 AM
Rather than requiring Obama to show his Birth Certificate as required by the U.S. Constitution they send a man to prison?

What a country!

There is no such requirement in the Constitution (I'm pretty sure you know that, but are just throwing shit against the wall).

The soldier in question clearly committed multiple UCMJ violations, and could have been sent to prison for the rest of his life.

Again, this guy was lucky he only got 6-months confinement, discharge, and loss of retirement benefits.

ArmyCowboy
12-19-2010, 08:12 AM
To work to change the current system of checks (which are mentioned in the JBS link I gave above) is rational. To carry on with this "birther" nonsense is not.

Obama won the election and passed the checks that are in place. He is the President and CINC until the next election at a minimum.

So we ought to stop wasting time and resources on this Birther nonsense and focus on POLICY for now, and getting someone better elected later.

+1

Using the birther argument marginalizes Obama's opponents when there are so many legitimate issues one can oppose him with.

pcosmar
12-19-2010, 08:40 AM
+1

when there are so many legitimate issues one can oppose him with.

And they all will do diddly squat.

TPTB chose him, and promoted him to serve their purpose.
I have never been on the "birther' bandwagon, but I am for any and all opposition to Obama.
I welcome it, and any other resistance to the wishes of the puppet masters.

It makes little difference in the long run. If McCain or Romney had been anointed the same shit would be happening.
Exactly the same.
So I welcome it, and any other resistance.

pcosmar
12-19-2010, 08:43 AM
I assure you, there are many people serving in the military who are vastly more intelligent than you are.

Perhaps. Doubts, but perhaps.
I did have the sense to get the fuck out.
;)

Paul Revered
12-19-2010, 09:32 AM
Lakin took an oath and then chose not to honor that oath.

As a Soldier who has deployed several times in support of military action I don't personally agree with, I have absolutely no respect for Lakin and believe the sentence he received was far too lenient.What oath was that? Do you mean that one about defending the Constitution?

ArmyCowboy
12-19-2010, 10:03 AM
And they all will do diddly squat.

TPTB chose him, and promoted him to serve their purpose.
I have never been on the "birther' bandwagon, but I am for any and all opposition to Obama.
I welcome it, and any other resistance to the wishes of the puppet masters.

It makes little difference in the long run. If McCain or Romney had been anointed the same shit would be happening.
Exactly the same.
So I welcome it, and any other resistance.

The image of Don Quixote, tilting at windmills, comes to mind here.

pcosmar
12-19-2010, 10:21 AM
The image of Don Quixote, tilting at windmills, comes to mind here.

And so.?
Electing a fucking socialist with an "R" is better?
Or the bunch of Neo-Cons (Trotskys) that were just elected in the last election. And folks think that is some kind of victory.

:rolleyes:

The one bright spot to being unemployed is that I am not paying any taxes for this shit.
:)

qh4dotcom
12-19-2010, 10:22 AM
No, it doesn't "bug me" at all.

I'd react the same way if a bunch of inbred CT's tried to get me to put up proof of citizenship that is 1) NOT required by law and 2) hasn't been required of any other candidate.

I'd spend the money just to tell the CTs to go fuck themselves.



I doubt you would spend your life savings in legal fees if 100+ folks sued you and they all wanted to see your original birth certificate.
Is poverty worth it?

libertarian4321
12-19-2010, 04:43 PM
I doubt you would spend your life savings in legal fees if 100+ folks sued you and they all wanted to see your original birth certificate.
Is poverty worth it?

Obama isn't spending "his life savings." He's spending loose change- the guy has millions in personal wealth and raised hundreds of millions in campaign funds. Even if you believe the somewhat dubious numbers being tossed around, it's not costing him money he can't easily afford.

Again, if I was in his position, I'd do the same thing, though I'd probably tell the little pissants to go fuck themselves first (something Obama probably won't do :)

qh4dotcom
12-19-2010, 06:39 PM
Again, if I was in his position, I'd do the same thing, though I'd probably tell the little pissants to go fuck themselves first (something Obama probably won't do :)

You can't afford the legal fees if 100+ folks sued you and they all wanted to see your original birth certificate....you don't have millions in personal wealth like Obama

Is poverty worth it?