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Lucille
12-16-2010, 01:48 PM
For a site called Big Peace...

What To Do With Bradley Manning? Execute Him, Says Incoming Intel Chairman (http://bigpeace.com/pschweizer/2010/12/16/what-to-do-with-bradley-manning-execute-him-says-incoming-intel-chairman/)


A former Army officer who has called for the execution of a soldier charged with leaking classified documents has been tapped by Republicans to head the House Intelligence Committee next year.

Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., who served three years in the Army in the late 1980s and is also a former FBI agent, was announced Wednesday as the next chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.

Commenting in early August about charges facing Army Spc. Bradley Manning, accused of being the source of classified military and diplomatic documents that have been posted on the website WikiLeaks, Rogers said in an interview with a Michigan radio staton that the “death penalty clearly should be considered here.”

“If they won’t charge him with treason, they ought to charge him with murder,” Rogers said.

A majority of the commenters agree. Monsters. And who has Manning murdered?!

Manning's a whistleblower, like Ellsberg, not a traitor.

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 01:54 PM
For a site called Big Peace...

What To Do With Bradley Manning? Execute Him, Says Incoming Intel Chairman (http://bigpeace.com/pschweizer/2010/12/16/what-to-do-with-bradley-manning-execute-him-says-incoming-intel-chairman/)

a whistle blower deals purely in government corruption.

most of the info dumps were designed to embarrass, but didn't amount to corruption. listing areas of interest overseas Listing derogatory names used for foreign leaders, that stuff isn't corruption, so it doesn't qualify for whistle blower protection.

Heimdallr
12-16-2010, 01:59 PM
Ugh, I just can't handle this wikileaks fiasco. People just lose their shit and can't think critically.

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 02:03 PM
Ugh, I just can't handle this wikileaks fiasco. People just lose their shit and can't think critically.

this isn't about wikileaks, this is about a US citizen disseminating information, and we do have laws on the books to deal with him.

Heimdallr
12-16-2010, 02:05 PM
this isn't about wikileaks, this is about a US citizen disseminating information, and we do have laws on the books to deal with him.

Yes, but they associate him with Wikileaks. Have you been reading the comments on that page?

Freedom 4 all
12-16-2010, 02:09 PM
Tokyomatt96p · 7 hours ago
He needs to be executed. Just how many people have and will die because of his actions!

No one "have die" because of his actions. No one will die. Some arrogant assholes got embarrassed. That is all.

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 02:30 PM
Yes, but they associate him with Wikileaks. Have you been reading the comments on that page?

not in any depth.

I'm also pretty sick of the wikileaks stuff, but likely for a different reason.

From a liberty standpoint, I have no problems defending Assange's right to share this info.

What I question, is his motive. What good does it accomplish to publicize areas that aren't specifically corruption? Is the goal to make governments more hostile to one another, is it for personal fame, or does he actually think some good will come of this?

I see the first two things happening, he is infamous, and leaders likely are unhappy with other leaders.

What I fail to see, is any good coming out of this gossip style leaking of info

show me the corruption, I was hopeful their would be some meat, but it is largely fluff.

Acala
12-16-2010, 02:35 PM
this isn't about wikileaks, this is about a US citizen disseminating information, and we do have laws on the books to deal with him.

This is about a soldier who arguably was upholding his oath to protect the Constitution from the corrupt, treacherous, bastards that are running an unconstitutional world empire from Washington D.C. If anything, he is a patriot.

People who have their undies all in a bunch about protecting the troops should be advocating bringing them home. But they aren't because most of them are REALLY concerned about protecting the GOVERNMENT.

He didn't imperil this country's LEGITMATE interests. On the contrary he probably advanced them by waking people up to the evil being done in our name.

amy31416
12-16-2010, 02:39 PM
a whistle blower deals purely in government corruption.

most of the info dumps were designed to embarrass, but didn't amount to corruption. listing areas of interest overseas Listing derogatory names used for foreign leaders, that stuff isn't corruption, so it doesn't qualify for whistle blower protection.

So do you think he should be executed?

Acala
12-16-2010, 02:41 PM
Holder: "What should we do with him?"

Dick Cheney (visibly aroused): "Waterboard him untill he reveals the secrets of the terrorist organization he works for!!! *Pant Pant*"

Holder: "He already did that. That's what we are prosecuting him for."

Elwar
12-16-2010, 02:46 PM
I'd hold him for breach of contract that he signed when he got his clearance stating that he wouldn't divulge information.

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 02:50 PM
This is about a soldier who arguably was upholding his oath to protect the Constitution from the corrupt, treacherous, bastards that are running an unconstitutional world empire from Washington D.C. If anything, he is a patriot.

Do you really believe that?

He had no problems with our empire. He was either pissed off about the don't ask, don't tell political decisions being made, or by how his peers treated him for being gay.

If his leak was just the Iraq war footage showing a potential cover-up, I would be a huge fan.

but he went way, way further. Most of what he leaked had nothing to do with corruption.

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 02:50 PM
So do you think he should be executed?

seems pretty extreme.

amy31416
12-16-2010, 02:53 PM
seems pretty extreme.

Your response seems pretty ambivalent.

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 02:57 PM
Your response seems pretty ambivalent.

It is.

If we actually had a declaration of war - I would consider his actions far more objectionable - and potentially worthy of the death.

But since we didn't, even if Manning shit the bed, maybe the politicians that ignored the constitution should be forced to lie in the mess he made.

I think a dishonorable discharge is enough.

cooker263
12-16-2010, 02:58 PM
All I know is I sure hope he isn't executed. Sure, he should be punished to some extent by the military according to the contract he signed. Despite that, I just hope he's able to eventually live a normal life. Any chance he doesn't sit his whole life in prison?

Acala
12-16-2010, 02:58 PM
Do you really believe that?

He had no problems with our empire. He was either pissed off about the don't ask, don't tell political decisions being made, or by how his peers treated him for being gay.

If his leak was just the Iraq war footage showing a potential cover-up, I would be a huge fan.

but he went way, way further. Most of what he leaked had nothing to do with corruption.

I have not heard any reports of his motivation. Have you? If not, then your speculation is as good as mine.

I believe that the US world empire IS unconstitutional and that an oath to protect the Constitution from domestic enemies includes exposing the government for the lying sacks of crap that they are.

You also don't know what "most of what he leaked" relates to as most of it has not been published yet. But what he HAS released is plenty. The State department spying on diplomats, the CIA blowing up school children and getting someone else to take the blame, our mercenary forces arranging for the ritual sodomy of little boys, our government threatening and bribing other countries to support the climate change agenda, to name just a few.

He has exposed a bunch of vermin who are now squirming in the sunlight. He should get a medal to encourage others to do the same. The more truth that comes out about the rottenness of our "leaders" the better the chance of throwing their asses out.

coastie
12-16-2010, 02:59 PM
Do you really believe that?

He had no problems with our empire. He was either pissed off about the don't ask, don't tell political decisions being made, or by how his peers treated him for being gay.

If his leak was just the Iraq war footage showing a potential cover-up, I would be a huge fan.

but he went way, way further. Most of what he leaked had nothing to do with corruption.

:confused:

His reasons for doing this have been on the web (in his own words) for months now...and have nothing to do with the drivel that just oozed from your fingertips. Have you done any research on this subject? And by research I dont mean expertly parroting what you've seen on TV since this all started.:rolleyes:

amy31416
12-16-2010, 03:01 PM
It is.

If we actually had a declaration of war - I would consider his actions far more objectionable - and potentially worthy of the death.

But since we didn't, even if Manning shit the bed, maybe the politicians that ignored the constitution should be forced to lie in the mess he made.

I think a dishonorable discharge is enough.

Nice pro-life stance--blows with the wind.

Acala
12-16-2010, 03:10 PM
:confused:

His reasons for doing this have been on the web (in his own words) for months now...and have nothing to do with the drivel that just oozed from your fingertips. Have you done any research on this subject? And by research I dont mean expertly parroting what you've seen on TV since this all started.:rolleyes:

I missed it. Could you please enlighten me?

angelatc
12-16-2010, 03:17 PM
a whistle blower deals purely in government corruption.

most of the info dumps were designed to embarrass, but didn't amount to corruption. listing areas of interest overseas Listing derogatory names used for foreign leaders, that stuff isn't corruption, so it doesn't qualify for whistle blower protection.

Exposing tax money used to fund child sex parties may not technically fall under corruption, but it is wrong and as such deserves to be included.

Mike Rogers is my rep. He's also ex-CIA. I really don't like him - he's a total neocon.

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 03:22 PM
I missed it. Could you please enlighten me?

good luck, it isn't readily available through a web search.

HOLLYWOOD
12-16-2010, 03:23 PM
For a site called Big Peace...

What To Do With Bradley Manning? Execute Him, Says Incoming Intel Chairman (http://bigpeace.com/pschweizer/2010/12/16/what-to-do-with-bradley-manning-execute-him-says-incoming-intel-chairman/)

A majority of the commenters agree. Monsters. And who has Manning murdered?!

Manning's a whistle-blower, like Ellsberg, not a traitor.

Everything that Rep. Mike Rogers has said, is pure theatrics of a Grandstander and propaganda NEOCON... the Ex-FBI agent ought to look at his very own alum... Robert Hanssen and Earl Edwin Pitts are just a few, that were not only spying for other nations, they disclosed the most sensitive compartmented information AND many people died or were killed/executed.

Assange is tabloid compared to the FBI's very own... maybe the hypocrite can start with the FBI, NSA, and CIA, agents in prison or in asylum somewhere around the planet. Then the Intel chairman can go after the dozens of AIPAC/PNAC/Israeli spies which are exponentially more dangerous than Assange can ever become.

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 03:25 PM
Exposing tax money used to fund child sex parties may not technically fall under corruption, but it is wrong and as such deserves to be included.

Mike Rogers is my rep. He's also ex-CIA. I really don't like him - he's a total neocon.

that's my point. If he would of just cut out all the extraneous bullshit meant to embarrass and bring fame, then you would see so much more sympathy.

there was some elements of corruption, or at least gross negligence, which falls under the whistle blower protection act, but he didn't limit it to that.

ninepointfive
12-16-2010, 03:27 PM
Swearing an oath to the Constitution means you defend your country from enemies who are both foreign and domestic. By revealing state secrets, Manning is therefore upholding his oath to defend the country from domestic enemies who are hostile to the Constitution. How hard is that to understand? When you seek office, you likewise swear an oath to defend the US Constitution.

If nothing else, these issues help to expose those who aren't exactly pro-liberty and freedom. National figureheads, and members of this forum alike.

Acala
12-16-2010, 03:29 PM
that's my point. If he would of just cut out all the extraneous bullshit meant to embarrass and bring fame, then you would see so much more sympathy.

there was some elements of corruption, or at least gross negligence, which falls under the whistle blower protection act, but he didn't limit it to that.

Lol!! So your complaint is that he did a poor job of editing? And for this he should be executed?

Acala
12-16-2010, 03:33 PM
Swearing an oath to the Constitution means you defend your country from enemies who are both foreign and domestic. By revealing state secrets, Manning is therefore upholding his oath to defend the country from domestic enemies who are hostile to the Constitution. How hard is that to understand? When you seek office, you likewise swear an oath to defend the US Constitution.

If nothing else, these issues help to expose those who aren't exactly pro-liberty and freedom. National figureheads, and members of this forum alike.

^this

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 03:35 PM
Lol!! So your complaint is that he did a poor job of editing? And for this he should be executed?

I believe treason can be punishable by death, especially in times of war, or if the act of treason is particularly heinous

And as I explained, we aren't at war, and the leaks weren't that damaging so I thing execution is pretty extreme in this case (but not in all cases)

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 03:36 PM
Swearing an oath to the Constitution means you defend your country from enemies who are both foreign and domestic. By revealing state secrets, Manning is therefore upholding his oath to defend the country from domestic enemies who are hostile to the Constitution. How hard is that to understand? When you seek office, you likewise swear an oath to defend the US Constitution.

If nothing else, these issues help to expose those who aren't exactly pro-liberty and freedom. National figureheads, and members of this forum alike.

And the defense for leaking derogatory names we call foreign leaders in private - how is he protecting the Constitution by doing this?

oyarde
12-16-2010, 03:43 PM
I believe treason can be punishable by death, especially in times of war, or if the act of treason is particularly heinous

And as I explained, we aren't at war, and the leaks weren't that damaging so I thing execution is pretty extreme in this case (but not in all cases)

He will likely be looking at a life sentence .

angelatc
12-16-2010, 03:44 PM
It took me less than 30 seconds.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/wikileaks-chat/

(1:52:29 PM) Manning: i dont… i just want the material out there… i dont want to be a part of it

(02:18:34 AM) Lamo: what’s your endgame plan, then?

(02:20:57 AM) Manning: well, it was forwarded to WL
(02:21:18 AM) Manning: and god knows what happens now
(02:22:27 AM) Manning: hopefully worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms
(02:23:06 AM) Manning: if not… than we’re doomed
(02:23:18 AM) Manning: as a species
(02:24:13 AM) Manning: i will officially give up on the society we have if nothing happens

amy31416
12-16-2010, 03:45 PM
I believe treason can be punishable by death, especially in times of war, or if the act of treason is particularly heinous

And as I explained, we aren't at war, and the leaks weren't that damaging so I thing execution is pretty extreme in this case (but not in all cases)

You shouldn't promote it unless you'd be able to look a person in the eye, a person who thought (right or wrong) that he was doing the right thing, and pull the trigger yourself.

This kid has been kept in solitary confinement for 23 hours/day for the last 7 months for leaking documents that "embarrassed" our gov't. (And yes, that's considered torture by most civilized countries.) The people who actually tortured and authorized torture, are running free and bragging about it. The government, who keeps killing civilians on our dime and lie about it repeatedly, will never see a god damned day in court.

How about you start on them first, then we can talk about Manning? You're a religious fellow, do you really think that Jesus would be in favor of torturing and possibly executing some kid who exposed gov't secrets?

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 03:48 PM
You shouldn't promote it unless you'd be able to look a person in the eye, a person who thought (right or wrong) that he was doing the right thing, and pull the trigger yourself.

This kid has been kept in solitary confinement for 23 hours/day for the last 7 months for leaking documents that "embarrassed" our gov't. (And yes, that's considered torture by most civilized countries.) The people who actually tortured and authorized torture, are running free and bragging about it. The government, who keeps killing civilians on our dime and lie about it repeatedly, will never see a god damned day in court.

How about you start on them first, then we can talk about Manning? You're a religious fellow, do you really think that Jesus would be in favor of torturing and possibly executing some kid who exposed gov't secrets?

I'm an atheist, so you clearly don't know the first think about me.

oyarde
12-16-2010, 03:55 PM
You shouldn't promote it unless you'd be able to look a person in the eye, a person who thought (right or wrong) that he was doing the right thing, and pull the trigger yourself.

This kid has been kept in solitary confinement for 23 hours/day for the last 7 months for leaking documents that "embarrassed" our gov't. (And yes, that's considered torture by most civilized countries.) The people who actually tortured and authorized torture, are running free and bragging about it. The government, who keeps killing civilians on our dime and lie about it repeatedly, will never see a god damned day in court.

How about you start on them first, then we can talk about Manning? You're a religious fellow, do you really think that Jesus would be in favor of torturing and possibly executing some kid who exposed gov't secrets?

That is very interesting ... the treatment he is getting currently would be common in military prison ..... If we could ask Jesus , I would surmise that he would say that the young man should have followed the rules and will have to accept the consequences .... I do not think Jesus would be in favor of torture and executing the young fellow .

Monarchist
12-16-2010, 04:05 PM
The maximum penalty for what Manning did is a $10,000 fine and/or 10 years imprisonment.

http://www.archives.gov/isoo/training/standard-form-312.html

tangent4ronpaul
12-16-2010, 04:07 PM
Better option - EXECUTE the incoming Intel chair...

txaslftist
12-16-2010, 04:08 PM
he was indiscriminate, but there was a lot of corruption involved. An example is the cable detailing our State Department's cooperation in a scheme to raise food prices worldwide in order to "encourage" Europe to admit GM crops. Exposure of that corruption (which actually killed people) was part of the wiki dump.

oyarde
12-16-2010, 04:08 PM
The maximum penalty for what Manning did is a $10,000 fine and/or 10 years imprisonment.

http://www.archives.gov/isoo/training/standard-form-312.html

I would expect a multitude of charges .

amy31416
12-16-2010, 04:09 PM
I'm an atheist, so you clearly don't know the first think about me.

My apologies. However, not believing in god is no reason to throw ethics and consistency out the window. And you should still be willing to pull the trigger yourself if you're going to promote it.

txaslftist
12-16-2010, 04:09 PM
I'm gonna just go ahead and call that corruption. Pimping kids on the US dime ... yeah, that's corruption.

txaslftist
12-16-2010, 04:10 PM
You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

amy31416
12-16-2010, 04:12 PM
he was indiscriminate, but there was a lot of corruption involved. An example is the cable detailing our State Department's cooperation in a scheme to raise food prices worldwide in order to "encourage" Europe to admit GM crops. Exposure of that corruption (which actually killed people) was part of the wiki dump.

Hadn't heard of that part of the leak...thanks for the info.

CUnknown
12-16-2010, 04:14 PM
The maximum penalty for what Manning did is a $10,000 fine and/or 10 years imprisonment.

http://www.archives.gov/isoo/training/standard-form-312.html

The man's a hero. Punishment like this would be a crime against humanity. How about a short prison sentence (time already served) and a dishonorable discharge? He did leak classified information, so obviously he can't maintain his position with the military. But 10 years in prison? Or execution??? WTF?

Acala
12-16-2010, 04:16 PM
Hadn't heard of that part of the leak...thanks for the info.

I hadn't heard that either. But I'm sure it was covered by the MSM. Right?

txaslftist
12-16-2010, 04:16 PM
You asked: "What good does it accomplish to publicize areas that aren't specifically corruption?"

Intrinsic in the question is the notion that there exists a portion of our diplomacy which we shouldn't be allowed to see. I reject that. If our diplomats are sending cables to each other and to foreign diplomats that are reflective our arrogance and our condescension to the world, I would like to know that. Because (for example) Hillary Clinton and other high level diplomats maintain a very different image of our diplomacy for public consumption. This leads us to not understand why other nations react as they do to our high-handedness, to think them unreasonable, and in some cases to support policies that if we knew the truth, we would find abhorrent.

I say blow the whistles, treat the people like grown ups, quit keeping us in the dark and feeding us like mushrooms. Its the essence of a free society.

oyarde
12-16-2010, 04:19 PM
Hadn't heard of that part of the leak...thanks for the info.

Food prices are manipulated world wide which would result in malnourishment and death . There are many people involved in that . Governments , companies , investors etc. At some point , as an example , if the US quit foreign aid , many countries will need to try the gm crops because they cannot produce enough to feed themselves and cannot afford to import it without handouts .

Monarchist
12-16-2010, 04:20 PM
The man's a hero. Punishment like this would be a crime against humanity. How about a short prison sentence (time already served) and a dishonorable discharge? He did leak classified information, so obviously he can't maintain his position with the military. But 10 years in prison? Or execution??? WTF?

Execution would only be an option if they charged him with treason for transmitting classified material to a foreign/hostile government, which the prosecution would probably have to prove was his intent, so that's likely off the table. And it's up to, but no more than, ten years, so it could be fewer years, or simply a fine of $10,000 or less. This is all assuming prosecution doesn't charge him with multiple counts.

txaslftist
12-16-2010, 04:21 PM
The maximum penalty for what Manning did is a $10,000 fine and/or 10 years imprisonment.

http://www.archives.gov/isoo/training/standard-form-312.html

Well, not exactly. The real maximum is a $10,000 fine and 10 years imprisonment PER DOCUMENT (ie, indictable/chargeable unit). What he's really looking at as a maximum sentence is pretty much whatever the government attorneys want and can get the federal judge to go along with, assuming a jury conviction.

Acala
12-16-2010, 04:21 PM
I believe treason can be punishable by death, especially in times of war, or if the act of treason is particularly heinous

And as I explained, we aren't at war, and the leaks weren't that damaging so I thing execution is pretty extreme in this case (but not in all cases)

Okay, so you believe this kid, who apparently was trying to do something good for the human race, should be severely punished because he failed to read through fifty thousadn documents and consequently revealed some things that were merely embarassing to our asshole diplomatic corps mixed in with the stuff that is appallingly evil. I disagree and think it is in the interest of liberty and honest government that he be fully exhonerated.

But let me ask you this: what of the government officials and mercenaries who have now been exposed? I see they got this kid into the jug pretty fast and are working on Assange, but nary a hand has been laid on the real scum. Care to pass judgment?

oyarde
12-16-2010, 04:23 PM
Execution would only be an option if they charged him with treason for transmitting classified material to a foreign/hostile government, which the prosecution would probably have to prove was his intent, so that's likely off the table. And it's up to, but no more than, ten years, so it could be fewer years, or simply a fine of $10,000 or less. This is all assuming prosecution doesn't charge him with multiple counts.

I would expect multiple counts and treason , I imagine there is a determination that he never sees light of day .

txaslftist
12-16-2010, 04:26 PM
http://www.activistpost.com/2010/12/leaked-cable-hike-food-prices-to-boost.html

I got it here... And no, it was not covered by the MSM.

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 04:26 PM
Okay, so you believe this kid, who apparently was trying to do something good for the human race, should be severely punished because he failed to read through fifty thousadn documents and consequently revealed some things that were merely embarassing to our asshole diplomatic corps mixed in with the stuff that is appallingly evil. I disagree and think it is in the interest of liberty and honest government that he be fully exhonerated.

But let me ask you this: what of the government officials and mercenaries who have now been exposed? I see they got this kid into the jug pretty fast and are working on Assange, but nary a hand has been laid on the real scum. Care to pass judgment?

he failed to live up to obligations he promised to make, so my suggestion of a dishonorable discharge seems pretty reasonable.

I'm all for anybody involved in the actual corruption to stand trial as well. Start a thread on that, and I'll be sure to chime in just to alleviate any fears you might have. (eye roll)

txaslftist
12-16-2010, 04:27 PM
There will most definitely be multiple counts.

Acala
12-16-2010, 04:28 PM
You asked: "What good does it accomplish to publicize areas that aren't specifically corruption?"

Intrinsic in the question is the notion that there exists a portion of our diplomacy which we shouldn't be allowed to see. I reject that. If our diplomats are sending cables to each other and to foreign diplomats that are reflective our arrogance and our condescension to the world, I would like to know that. Because (for example) Hillary Clinton and other high level diplomats maintain a very different image of our diplomacy for public consumption. This leads us to not understand why other nations react as they do to our high-handedness, to think them unreasonable, and in some cases to support policies that if we knew the truth, we would find abhorrent.

I say blow the whistles, treat the people like grown ups, quit keeping us in the dark and feeding us like mushrooms. Its the essence of a free society.

Yup. This is really it. I deny my government the authority to lie, cheat, bribe, torture, and murder in my name. We have reached the point where most of the process of "governing" is done in secret and the public sees only a carefully managed facade. That is wrong. The facade needs to be knocked down. We are not at war. This country is not in danger from foreign powers. We don't need a government that operates in secrecy.

Acala
12-16-2010, 04:31 PM
he failed to live up to obligations he promised to make, so my suggestion of a dishonorable discharge seems pretty reasonable.



His HIGHEST obligation is his oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies. Hillary Clinton and the other scum he exposed are enemies of the Constitution. Therefore he met his highest obligation. Or is it your belief that soldiers are obligated to protect and shield government that has exceeded its Constitutional authority?

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 04:31 PM
Yup. This is really it. I deny my government the authority to lie, cheat, bribe, torture, and murder in my name. We have reached the point where most of the process of "governing" is done in secret and the public sees only a carefully managed facade. That is wrong. The facade needs to be knocked down. We are not at war. This country is not in danger from foreign powers. We don't need a government that operates in secrecy.

and they better not ever, ever make fun of the playboy ways of foreign leaders. If any of our leaders ever do that, we need to know about it! Somebody has body odor at an important conference, this should be public knowledge!

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 04:32 PM
His HIGHEST obligation is his oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies. Hillary Clinton and the other scum he exposed are enemies of the Constitution. Therefore he met his highest obligation. Or is it your belief that soldiers are obligated to protect and shield government that has exceeded its Constitutional authority?

the whistle blower protection act will (or should anyway) protect against actual corruption, negligence, etc, etc. He went further with his info dumps.

txaslftist
12-16-2010, 04:32 PM
Oh... it should be included in an official government cable, though?

Acala
12-16-2010, 04:38 PM
and they better not ever, ever make fun of the playboy ways of foreign leaders. If any of our leaders ever do that, we need to know about it! Somebody has body odor at an important conference, this should be public knowledge!

I would prefer that representatives of my country behave like ladies and gentlemen and refrain from gossip - especially in writing and on government time and channels. I don't think it is particularly important that it be exposed. But exposing it hardly warrants a long prison sentence especially when, as in this case, it was merely chaff that came along with the VERY important wheat.

The wise application of the law looks to how a ruling will affect FUTURE actors. If you want government employees in the future to expose government malfeasance, you need to protect them from punishment. I WANT people like Manning to do exactly what he did in the future. Therefore I do not want him to be punished.

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 04:41 PM
Oh... it should be included in an official government cable, though?

I fail to see the harm in compiling information about foreign leaders we do business with. If you are going to attend meetings with a known womanizer, it might help to know of this ahead of time.

I see no reason to claim this is the type of info that must be made public, or anybody is better served for making it public.

HOLLYWOOD
12-16-2010, 04:42 PM
Let's Rewind...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IFlp_8BGhw

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 04:43 PM
I would prefer that representatives of my country behave like ladies and gentlemen and refrain from gossip - especially in writing and on government time and channels. I don't think it is particularly important that it be exposed. But exposing it hardly warrants a long prison sentence especially when, as in this case, it was merely chaff that came along with the VERY important wheat.

The wise application of the law looks to how a ruling will affect FUTURE actors. If you want government employees in the future to expose government malfeasance, you need to protect them from punishment. I WANT people like Manning to do exactly what he did in the future. Therefore I do not want him to be punished.

I don't want the next person to do exactly what he did. I want the next person to remove the items that aren't corruption.

oyarde
12-16-2010, 04:50 PM
I don't want the next person to do exactly what he did. I want the next person to remove the items that aren't corruption.

When everyone sees the sentence he will get , I think it will pretty well exclude the possibility of a next person releasing anything that can be traced to them ?

Acala
12-16-2010, 05:11 PM
I don't want the next person to do exactly what he did. I want the next person to remove the items that aren't corruption.

The gossipy crap is trivial. Punishing him for that is simply a pretext for what the government REALLY wants to do which is protect its ability to engage in nefarious conduct with impunity. I think we should bend WAY over backwards to protect people who expose them. You seem to be very concerned about protecting the phony dignity of a bunch of lame civil servants. I'm concerned with bringing down the brutal empire. Your position is penny wise and pound foolish, assuming your main concern is liberty

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 05:18 PM
The gossipy crap is trivial. Punishing him for that is simply a pretext for what the government REALLY wants to do which is protect its ability to engage in nefarious conduct with impunity. I think we should bend WAY over backwards to protect people who expose them. You seem to be very concerned about protecting the phony dignity of a bunch of lame civil servants. I'm concerned with bringing down the brutal empire. Your position is penny wise and pound foolish, assuming your main concern is liberty

we are ruled by laws. the law only protects corruption being exposed, and I think that is a reasonable law. sorry if my belief structure offends you, but I'm not going to address your attacks directed at me.

VBRonPaulFan
12-16-2010, 05:33 PM
Okay, so you believe this kid, who apparently was trying to do something good for the human race, should be severely punished because he failed to read through fifty thousadn documents and consequently revealed some things that were merely embarassing to our asshole diplomatic corps mixed in with the stuff that is appallingly evil. I disagree and think it is in the interest of liberty and honest government that he be fully exhonerated.

But let me ask you this: what of the government officials and mercenaries who have now been exposed? I see they got this kid into the jug pretty fast and are working on Assange, but nary a hand has been laid on the real scum. Care to pass judgment?

You basically hit my beef with the whole argument against Manning. It's like a guy who sees someone rob a bank, so the guy goes and reports it and turns in the person who did the robbery...and everyone flips out on the person who reported the crime and screams "HOW DARE YOU REPORT A CRIME AND TURN IN A THIEF!". It makes absolutely no sense to me.

You guys claim that the info he leaked is going to get our citizens/troops killed... yet you ignore how many citizens/troops are killed because of the lying, cheating, and manipulating that these asshole politicians will cause - ESPECIALLY IF WE LET THEM GO ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS UNCHECKED!

amy31416
12-16-2010, 05:41 PM
You basically hit my beef with the whole argument against Manning. It's like a guy who sees someone rob a bank, so the guy goes and reports it and turns in the person who did the robbery...and everyone flips out on the person who reported the crime and screams "HOW DARE YOU REPORT A CRIME AND TURN IN A THIEF!". It makes absolutely no sense to me.

You guys claim that the info he leaked is going to get our citizens/troops killed... yet you ignore how many citizens/troops are killed because of the lying, cheating, and manipulating that these asshole politicians will cause - ESPECIALLY IF WE LET THEM GO ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS UNCHECKED!

But, but...we have laws (5.81 x 10^12 of them)...and the gov't would NEVER make laws to preserve their own power and secrecy, while stealing our money and privacy, in violation of other laws. Now sit down, shut up and watch the MSM to find out what you need to know or get labeled an "enemy combatant" which gives them the right to use "enhanced interrogation" on you during your incarceration where you are held without trial, indefinitely.

ARealConservative
12-16-2010, 05:42 PM
You basically hit my beef with the whole argument against Manning. It's like a guy who sees someone rob a bank, so the guy goes and reports it and turns in the person who did the robbery...and everyone flips out on the person who reported the crime and screams "HOW DARE YOU REPORT A CRIME AND TURN IN A THIEF!". It makes absolutely no sense to me.

You guys claim that the info he leaked is going to get our citizens/troops killed... yet you ignore how many citizens/troops are killed because of the lying, cheating, and manipulating that these asshole politicians will cause - ESPECIALLY IF WE LET THEM GO ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS UNCHECKED!

who on this forum is making this claim?

my problem, is the guy reporting the theft is also reporting that the bank president picks his nose, the teller didn't wash her hands after using the restroom, and the security guard is a fat fuck that carries an unloaded weapon.

charrob
12-16-2010, 05:50 PM
Bradley Manning is a hero like Daniel Ellsberg was. He brought to light the despicable acts by our government and i totally applaud him for it. He did this not to give 'secrets' to some enemy to give them a leg up in a war but rather to bring to light how evil our government really is. At most he should get a slap on the wrist for this.

oyarde
12-16-2010, 05:55 PM
Bradley Manning is a hero like Daniel Ellsberg was. He brought to light the despicable acts by our government and i totally applaud him for it. He did this not to give 'secrets' to some enemy to give them a leg up in a war but rather to bring to light how evil our government really is. At most he should get a slap on the wrist for this.

Yeah , but he is going to get much more than that . I hope he thought it all through .

charrob
12-16-2010, 06:01 PM
Yeah , but he is going to get much more than that . I hope he thought it all through .

He said that he did, and thought it was important enough to expose our government for what it really is; it just doesn't seem right though, his motivation was a good one.

oyarde
12-16-2010, 06:19 PM
Saying you did and then doing time in a military prison are two very different things . I have seen one .

qh4dotcom
12-16-2010, 07:49 PM
Oh dear, all of you who are criticizing Manning should go read what Obama's website change.gov says about whistleblowers

http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/



Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.

VBRonPaulFan
12-16-2010, 08:20 PM
who on this forum is making this claim?

my problem, is the guy reporting the theft is also reporting that the bank president picks his nose, the teller didn't wash her hands after using the restroom, and the security guard is a fat fuck that carries an unloaded weapon.

my bad, i was over-generalizing. that is one of the main arguments i keep hearing against the info dumps from all over the place. no one here specifically said that.

and if you've got a problem with the release of a little trivial information along with extremely important information detailing wrong-doing...well then i just don't know how you get along from day to day without murdering someone...lol

VBRonPaulFan
12-16-2010, 08:20 PM
Oh dear, all of you who are criticizing Manning should go read what Obama's website change.gov says about whistleblowers

http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/

another perfect example of a "do as i say, not as i do" politician at work

osan
12-16-2010, 08:38 PM
Swearing an oath to the Constitution means you defend your country from enemies who are both foreign and domestic. By revealing state secrets, Manning is therefore upholding his oath to defend the country from domestic enemies who are hostile to the Constitution. How hard is that to understand? When you seek office, you likewise swear an oath to defend the US Constitution.

If nothing else, these issues help to expose those who aren't exactly pro-liberty and freedom. National figureheads, and members of this forum alike.

Finally some reasonable thought. Thanks.

As for all the talk of endangering people, that is a bit of a strawman in some sense. Consider the conflict, e.g. when exposing some traitor in a high government position necessitates endangering the lives of operatives or troops. What do you do? The answer is clear. You uphold your sworn oath and if that endangers others who have sworn the same oath, tough shit for them. That is part and parcel of the occupation they chose to take up. These are the types of risks of which they should have been aware when they joined the armed forces, the community of spooks, the diplomat corps, or what have you. Caveat emptor and all that. If you go into such a business, you risk injury and death as occupational hazards. If you are not prepared for such exposure, find another way to make a living. This should not be difficult to understand.

amy31416
12-17-2010, 09:18 AM
http://www.activistpost.com/2010/12/leaked-cable-hike-food-prices-to-boost.html

I got it here... And no, it was not covered by the MSM.

Here's another lovely item about them messing with the food supply that won't see MSM coverage: http://www.fastcompany.com/1708896/wiki-bee-leaks-epa-document-reveals-agency-knowingly-allowed-use-of-bee-toxic-pesticide


The world honey bee population has plunged in recent years, worrying beekeepers and farmers who know how critical bee pollination is for many crops. A number of theories have popped up as to why the North American honey bee population has declined--electromagnetic radiation, malnutrition, and climate change have all been pinpointed. Now a leaked EPA document reveals that the agency allowed the widespread use of a bee-toxic pesticide, despite warnings from EPA scientists. (More at link)

I was involved with a research project attempting to track the number of bees in various areas of the country to try to find reasons why the honeybee population is dwindling so much...so this is a very useful bit of information for the research which I'll pass along.

Thanks Wikileaks/Julian Assange and all whistleblowers!

Travlyr
12-17-2010, 09:34 AM
Great find Amy. This deserves its own thread.
+ rep

oyarde
12-17-2010, 01:54 PM
Here's another lovely item about them messing with the food supply that won't see MSM coverage: http://www.fastcompany.com/1708896/wiki-bee-leaks-epa-document-reveals-agency-knowingly-allowed-use-of-bee-toxic-pesticide

(More at link)

I was involved with a research project attempting to track the number of bees in various areas of the country to try to find reasons why the honeybee population is dwindling so much...so this is a very useful bit of information for the research which I'll pass along.

Thanks Wikileaks/Julian Assange and all whistleblowers!

I always figured it was some type of disease spreading .

oyarde
12-17-2010, 02:01 PM
Here's another lovely item about them messing with the food supply that won't see MSM coverage: http://www.fastcompany.com/1708896/wiki-bee-leaks-epa-document-reveals-agency-knowingly-allowed-use-of-bee-toxic-pesticide

(More at link)

I was involved with a research project attempting to track the number of bees in various areas of the country to try to find reasons why the honeybee population is dwindling so much...so this is a very useful bit of information for the research which I'll pass along.

Thanks Wikileaks/Julian Assange and all whistleblowers!

If you find anything significant further on this , please send it to me .

angelatc
12-17-2010, 02:39 PM
When everyone sees the sentence he will get , I think it will pretty well exclude the possibility of a next person releasing anything that can be traced to them ?

Of course they're going to revamp the system. but if Manning hadn't confided in Lamo he may have never been caught.

amy31416
12-17-2010, 02:48 PM
If you find anything significant further on this , please send it to me .

Will do...I sent the article off to the grad student doing the research, I'll ask her to forward any additional information she might find. I'm sure she'll look.

Acala
12-17-2010, 02:58 PM
we are ruled by laws.

No we are not. We are ruled by an outlaw government that long ago broke free of its Constitutional retraints and now does whatever the hell it wants in flagrant disregard of the law. Because the government disregards the law, it has no moral authority to hold the people to the law.


The law only protects corruption being exposed, and I think that is a reasonable law.

So you wish to protect pervasive government secrecy even though it has nothing to do with protecting National security. You do know that the government is supposed to be working for us? On what basis can you justify our government, our employee, our agent, keeping secrets from us?


Sorry if my belief structure offends you, but I'm not going to address your attacks directed at me.

Your belief structure doesn't offend me. I just think it is inconsistent with a free society and inconsistent with the idea that the government works for the people.

How did I attack you? I am attacking your position. That's different.

agitator
12-17-2010, 03:18 PM
No we are not. We are ruled by an outlaw government that long ago broke free of its Constitutional retraints and now does whatever the hell it wants in flagrant disregard of the law. Because the government disregards the law, it has no moral authority to hold the people to the law.



So you wish to protect pervasive government secrecy even though it has nothing to do with protecting National security. You do know that the government is supposed to be working for us? On what basis can you justify our government, our employee, our agent, keeping secrets from us?



Your belief structure doesn't offend me. I just think it is inconsistent with a free society and inconsistent with the idea that the government works for the people.

How did I attack you? I am attacking your position. That's different.

+1