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teacherone
12-15-2010, 09:23 AM
I have never seen anything like it. In the last month or so the mood on liberal blogs has completely turned. The hopey changey fog has lifted and they are beginning to SEE Obama for the disaster he is.

Can we capture their vote? And how?

RM918
12-15-2010, 09:33 AM
Not going to be satisfied until Conservatives are the same way. Unfortunately it looks like they're more emboldened than ever to spend, torture and murder.

acptulsa
12-15-2010, 09:47 AM
We're getting through to them.

Just keep finding the nicest way you can to say, 'We told you so.' And I do mean both sides.

tangent4ronpaul
12-15-2010, 10:00 AM
We've got the only anti-war candidate (unless Kucinich runs again)
We want to legalize pot
we want to get rid of the gvmt spying
organic food and raw milk
etc.

Now if Paul can only keep his mouth shut about his personal views on abortion, we've got a potential winning ticket. Otherwise we are sunk. That's a deal breaker with liberals. We have to get through to them that it's a state issue and the federal government isn't going to do anything about it.

cswake
12-15-2010, 10:07 AM
The consensus I've read is that Obama won't be primaried because the Democratic Party doesn't want to throw out the first black President after one term. The point to make is that they should help get Paul into the Presidential debate so that he could call Obama on his lies and, if they want, actually choose a candidate that supports at least some of their major positions.

amy31416
12-15-2010, 10:53 AM
Not going to be satisfied until Conservatives are the same way. Unfortunately it looks like they're more emboldened than ever to spend, torture and murder.

Yep. Hate on liberals all you want, but at least they actually criticize Obama, whereas most conservatives didn't utter a whimper about Bush until his last year in office. I'd be willing to wager that most of the buffoons who call themselves conservatives would vote for him again, and don't give a rat's ass about the Constitution unless it's a partisan issue.

Andrew-Austin
12-15-2010, 10:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

fisharmor
12-15-2010, 11:10 AM
Now if Paul can only keep his mouth shut about his personal views on abortion, we've got a potential winning ticket. Otherwise we are sunk. That's a deal breaker with liberals. We have to get through to them that it's a state issue and the federal government isn't going to do anything about it.

He talks about it being a moral evil, but then he says that a state solution is the answer.
If liberals don't believe this, then they should stop to consider things they don't like that are done on the federal level, like No Child Left Behind.

Ninja Homer
12-15-2010, 11:24 AM
The consensus I've read is that Obama won't be primaried because the Democratic Party doesn't want to throw out the first black President after one term. The point to make is that they should help get Paul into the Presidential debate so that he could call Obama on his lies and, if they want, actually choose a candidate that supports at least some of their major positions.

The only way they'll throw out the first black President after one term is if they can put in the first woman President. I think Hillary will take the primary. She has already been distancing herself from Obama's policies, so it's pretty much a guarantee that she'll run.

tangent4ronpaul
12-15-2010, 11:33 AM
The only way they'll throw out the first black President after one term is if they can put in the first woman President. I think Hillary will take the primary. She has already been distancing herself from Obama's policies, so it's pretty much a guarantee that she'll run.

Hillary has publicly stated that she will not seek further public office beyond her stated dept position. I think WikiLeaks ended her political career.

-t

cswake
12-15-2010, 11:44 AM
I will say that they are seeing glimpses of truth, although can't quite seem to piece it together:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x8902


California is more like a third world country every day

I care more than many folks that I know, but I have to disconnect from it before I'm overtaken by despair. Because if that comes, then Second Amendment solutions start to sound good.

Now that the Democratic party is enabling the destruction of Social Security and is now touting trickle down economics as a job generator, I don't even know where to go anymore. :-(

But there is no way around that fact. And what that means is that things don't work on principle or on the basis of what's fair - they work on the basis of who is paying the most money to whom. (That is what corruption is. Look it up.) And this is why many of our elected officials say whatever they have to in order to get elected, but they will turn right around and do THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT THEY JUST SAID, if that is what their paymasters want them to do.

Or am I being too cynical? If so, I apologize.

People have saying "it will all come crashing down" for decades. Republicans think the same thing how eventually the "redistributionist state" will come crashing down.

It looks very much like all the world leaders agreed to the IMF/World Bank demands at the G-20 in Toronto and it's a done deal no matter how much the public objects.

I can't believe we had all three "houses" and ended up in WORSE shape than we were to start: Social Security on the way out, a health insurance mandate, and an escalation of the war.

I'm so bummed right now and I know I'm not alone. People I work with are saying, man, Obama has lost me. I tell them the whole lot of them (save our rep) are completely without merit. That said, voting Republican won't help. I will be leaving the POTUS selection on my 2012 ballot blank, unless we have a reasonable challenger that will, without much doubt, support US, not the corporations.

I only see blindly loyal supporters left, happily drinking the sand because they don't know the difference.

The Democrats are NOT going to help us. They have proven since Obama was elected that they will tie themselves in knots to make sure they do not offend their corporate benefactors by helping the middle class.

I will say it one more time - THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DOES NOT GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT YOU!!!!

After the shellacking I got from falling head over heels for a movement masquerading as a leader who was going to change the game, I am very hesitant to believe in anyone who acts as though he/she can lead us anywhere but off the cliff we're heading toward. Local is what I've realized. We need to create small communities and hopefully interlace them in such a way that we become the leaderless infrastructure. No, it isn't going to give us the luxuries some of us seem to think are birthrights, but we might survive and possibly even thrive in a very different way. Certainly, the insulated nuclear family needs to go the way of the dodo bird. It's a dead man walking.

i am 67. when i was a child there weren't beggars on every street. there were beggars in india, not america. in the 60's i was an acitivist; i marched, organized, and began a war tax resistance group in the 60's. now, i am a social worker in a welfare office helping people get health care.

What is sad for me is that i don't see that things have gotten better. there are more people who are more poor with fewer options. the movement to harsher times happened during my lifetime, despite my efforts. i feel despair and am also tired of being angry.


... paid off?
... complicit from the get-go?
... or threatened?

It's pretty evident to me that the ultra-wealthy of the world are calling the shots and I've often wondered if Obama (and others in congress) have been given a choice: play along and be rewarded financially or if not, they or their families have been threatened.

I've stopped listening to the news and I get annoyed when it comes on.

.. but I don't think there is much we can do about it. Take care yourself and your family if any, that's about all you can do.

The politicians are all bought and paid for (except for a handful, and they cannot do it alone).

Our system seems irreconcilably corrupt. There is a constant ache in my chest from feeling utterly hopeless, and I too, am very tired of feeling angry and hopeless all the time. This corrupt oligarchic way of doing things is simply un-sustainable. We are being crushed. Maybe that's what the power elite truly want, them on top of a slave caste, grinding their boot on our throats.

charrob
12-15-2010, 11:47 AM
I have never seen anything like it. In the last month or so the mood on liberal blogs has completely turned. The hopey changey fog has lifted and they are beginning to SEE Obama for the disaster he is.

Can we capture their vote? And how?

Speaking for myself, you already have, since 2007. Do I agree with RP 100%? No. But he gives me 70% which is more than any democrat, or democratic candidate has offered since before Clinton. (I've voted Nader since.)

It's important that those newly soured by the democratic party realize that it is not just Obama: that Hillary would be worse, that her husband was worse, and John Kerry wouldn't be any better for democratic ideals (war, civil liberties, 'free' trade pacts, torture, billions in annual foreign aide, bailouts of wall street, the federal reserve, the police state, military bases all around the world, a new dpt. of 'Homeland Security' that needs to be eliminated, expansion of executive powers, etc.).

I would point out Ron Paul's voting record that demonstrates unequivically that he remains true to his word and is principled. I'd also point out the monies given by lobbyists and special interests to other candidates versus the amount RP has accepted (which, if i remember correctly, was like a couple hundred or so- pretty much nothing).

Someone mentioned abortion as a hot-button issue; everyone's different, but, although pro-choice, that's not a deal-breaker for me personally as long as cases of rape, incest, and the mother's health are the exceptions. A deal-breaker would be a candidate getting rid of social security overnight- and RP has stated he would not do this but would rather phase in slowly any changes: that's important to bring up for those older voters who have paid into social security their entire working lives.

It's not worth discussing the 30% i do not agree with him on since he's giving 70% more than any democratic candidate.

specsaregood
12-15-2010, 11:49 AM
He talks about it being a moral evil, but then he says that a state solution is the answer.
If liberals don't believe this, then they should stop to consider things they don't like that are done on the federal level, like No Child Left Behind.

Liberals don't like "no child left behind"? You sure about that?

tangent4ronpaul
12-15-2010, 11:49 AM
He talks about it being a moral evil, but then he says that a state solution is the answer.
If liberals don't believe this, then they should stop to consider things they don't like that are done on the federal level, like No Child Left Behind.

The problem is he goes on at length about his personal beliefs, and anyone that cares a lot about it has shut their mind off before he adds as an afterthought that he thinks it's a state issue that the federal gvmt shouldn't be involved with. When he started doing this about 1/4 to 1/3 of our supporters were democrats. We lost them overnight. I've seen him do this several times. Once, in a college auditorium, the crowd was upbeat, interested and likeing what they were hearing. You could literally FEEL the entire auditorium turn hostile, or at least un-supportive when he did that.

One of these kind of moments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxs6s8wTKgk&feature=related

-t

Krugerrand
12-15-2010, 12:00 PM
Liberals don't like "no child left behind"? You sure about that?

My experience has been that they do not. Generally they think it fell short.

charrob
12-15-2010, 12:02 PM
Liberals don't like "no child left behind"? You sure about that?

yes. Years ago when it was first introduced there was a full page article in the Balt. Sun (a very liberal paper) and how it made teachers "teach to the test" rather than actually create a real learning environment for children. Additionally, i have two teachers in my extended family (both liberal) who are, and have been, totally against it.

tangent4ronpaul
12-15-2010, 12:04 PM
Speaking for myself, you already have, since 2007. Do I agree with RP 100%? No. But he gives me 70% which is more than any democrat, or democratic candidate has offered since before Clinton. (I've voted Nader since.)

It's important that those newly soured by the democratic party realize that it is not just Obama: that Hillary would be worse, that her husband was worse, and John Kerry wouldn't be any better for democratic ideals (war, civil liberties, 'free' trade pacts, torture, billions in annual foreign aide, bailouts of wall street, the federal reserve, the police state, military bases all around the world, a new dpt. of 'Homeland Security' that needs to be eliminated, expansion of executive powers, etc.).

I would point out Ron Paul's voting record that demonstrates unequivically that he remains true to his word and is principled. I'd also point out the monies given by lobbyists and special interests to other candidates versus the amount RP has accepted (which, if i remember correctly, was like a couple hundred or so- pretty much nothing).

Someone mentioned abortion as a hot-button issue; everyone's different, but, although pro-choice, that's not a deal-breaker for me personally as long as cases of rape, incest, and the mother's health are the exceptions. A deal-breaker would be a candidate getting rid of social security overnight- and RP has stated he would not do this but would rather phase in slowly any changes: that's important to bring up for those older voters who have paid into social security their entire working lives.

It's not worth discussing the 30% i do not agree with him on since he's giving 70% more than any democratic candidate.

+rep
Good Post!

-t

fisharmor
12-15-2010, 12:05 PM
Liberals don't like "no child left behind"? You sure about that?

The only liberals I have the misfortune to associate with are teachers, and to a man and woman, they don't like it.
They don't even get into spitting venom at the fact that it was a Bush thing. They honestly criticize the act, and they don't like it.

specsaregood
12-15-2010, 12:15 PM
My experience has been that they do not. Generally they think it fell short.
Ok, that makes sense.


yes. Years ago when it was first introduced there was a full page article in the Balt. Sun (a very liberal paper) and how it made teachers "teach to the test" rather than actually create a real learning environment for children. Additionally, i have two teachers in my extended family (both liberal) who are, and have been, totally against it.
See I have teachers in my family as well and they hate it, but they aren't liberals.


The only liberals I have the misfortune to associate with are teachers, and to a man and woman, they don't like it.
They don't even get into spitting venom at the fact that it was a Bush thing. They honestly criticize the act, and they don't like it.
Hrm, maybe it isn't liberals that hate it but rather teachers?

acptulsa
12-15-2010, 12:21 PM
I will say that they are seeing glimpses of truth, although can't quite seem to piece it together:

They do seem to be prone to mistake their belief structure for conventional wisdom. Of course, it isn't, as one would expect wisdom to be wise.


Hrm, maybe it isn't liberals that hate it but rather teachers?

And who would know better? Good ol' Ronald Reagan--didn't like his wars but he was quotable. 'We're from the (federal) government and we're here to help.' *runs screaming*

cswake
12-15-2010, 12:21 PM
Why are Americans so Angry (and frustrated)? - 2005


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sQ114S9IKw

Krugerrand
12-15-2010, 12:34 PM
yes. Years ago when it was first introduced there was a full page article in the Balt. Sun (a very liberal paper) and how it made teachers "teach to the test" rather than actually create a real learning environment for children. Additionally, i have two teachers in my extended family (both liberal) who are, and have been, totally against it.

"Teaching to the test" is a complaint I frequently heard as well.

I find it to be completely bogus complaint. Do these teachers not have tests in their classes? Do they not teach to them? Before NCLB was the learning environment faulty because it had exams?

Exams are a part of education. They evaluate a students command of the subject material. A better complaint would be that the exams do not accurately access the students learning. If that's the case, then fix the exam.

I hardly expect these same teachers that reject NCLB because of teaching to the tests would accept the same criticism of them being crappy teachers for teaching to their own tests.

specsaregood
12-15-2010, 12:47 PM
"Teaching to the test" is a complaint I frequently heard as well.
I find it to be completely bogus complaint. Do these teachers not have tests in their classes? Do they not teach to them? Before NCLB was the learning environment faulty because it had exams?

Exams are a part of education. They evaluate a students command of the subject material. A better complaint would be that the exams do not accurately access the students learning. If that's the case, then fix the exam.

I hardly expect these same teachers that reject NCLB because of teaching to the tests would accept the same criticism of them being crappy teachers for teaching to their own tests.

I think what is being said when they said "teaching to the test" is: Teaching to the test eliminates the need for critical thinking and simplifies it to just a sort of memorization. Rather than covering a broad range of information and focusing on the skills required to learn and self-teach.

dannno
12-15-2010, 01:04 PM
Exams are a part of education. They evaluate a students command of the subject material. A better complaint would be that the exams do not accurately access the students learning. If that's the case, then fix the exam.



That's the problem, how are you supposed to change the tests when they are coming from DC??

Also, having discussions with your class can prove to be more valuable in some cases then getting them to memorize a bunch of stuff for a test.

Heimdallr
12-15-2010, 01:17 PM
What's a "liberal"?

Don't you mean leftist?

Krugerrand
12-15-2010, 02:00 PM
I think what is being said when they said "teaching to the test" is: Teaching to the test eliminates the need for critical thinking and simplifies it to just a sort of memorization. Rather than covering a broad range of information and focusing on the skills required to learn and self-teach.

As a general concept, tests must exist. A good quality test should be able to test for critical thinking.

Ninja Homer
12-15-2010, 02:02 PM
I'd say there's now about a 50/50 split between those who have lost faith in Obama and the democrats, and those who are Obama apologists and still believe that it is the Republicans who are now getting in the way of all the "good" Obama wants to do just because they want to see him fail.

What we need to do is make those people see the truth somehow. How about if we make a list of 101 things that Obama could do to put forward the Democratic platform using his executive powers alone, without any Republican approval (and could have been doing for the last 2 years, but didn't)? Spread it far and wide, and it could go a long way towards waking them up to the truth.

The disillusioned, dismayed, and disenchanted people will be climbing up the emotional ladder. Right now, most of them are sad and apathetic about politics (sound familiar to anybody?). Next, they'll be getting angry and riled up like a bunch of media-version Tea Partiers, and they'll be wanting to do something about it. All we have to do is give them a little guidance and show them the revolutionary ladder, and they'll climb right up it. As they seek out the truth, we need to help point it out to them, and as they learn, they'll become inspired and active. Ron Paul 2012 is going to be huge, I'm tellin' ya!

teacherone
12-15-2010, 02:08 PM
here's what i sent to my obamabotfamily (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?212250-Well...I-ve-really-pissed-off-my-Obamabot-family-now) over a year ago and all i got back was majorly strained relationship.

some can't be reached. or maybe my tactics need changing. they seem sooo close sometimes but always take a statist turn.

Krugerrand
12-15-2010, 02:10 PM
That's the problem, how are you supposed to change the tests when they are coming from DC??

Also, having discussions with your class can prove to be more valuable in some cases then getting them to memorize a bunch of stuff for a test.

I agree completely and am no fan of NCLB.

I just object to liberal teachers complaining about teaching to the test. If that is the problem, then they should complain about the quality of the test. What they are upset about is not the test but that the tests enable THEM to be quantitatively compared to other teaching professionals.

People complain about the SATs - but overall, they work. People complaint about AP exams - but overall, they work. (surprise, surprise, these are all PRIVATE ENTERPRISES)

If these students intend to earn professional certifications or the like, they will need to be able to take standardized tests. There is a place in the world for standardized tests.

There is not a place in the United States for the Federal Government to implement standardized testing. NCLB increased Federal control of education while opening an avenue of teacher evaluations. Teachers complain about the tests because they are insecure about how their teaching will be reflected in the scores. Let's just call a Spade a Spade.

tangent4ronpaul
12-15-2010, 02:40 PM
They complain about the tests because the emphasis switched from teaching to ranking and funding.

They complain about the tests because the Federal gvmt uses the tests to push it's agenda of what should be learned.

-t

specsaregood
12-15-2010, 02:46 PM
Teachers complain about the tests because they are insecure about how their teaching will be reflected in the scores.
And what is the inevitable result? Teachers end up making sure kids memorize what will be on those tests instead of working on learning skills or teaching other information that won't be on those tests.

Travlyr
12-15-2010, 02:49 PM
Can Modern Liberals become Classical Liberals?

BuddyRey
12-15-2010, 03:01 PM
Yes, leftists are pissed at Obama. But unfortunately, the reason they're mad is because Obama isn't stealing enough money from rich people. It has nothing to do with his completely spineless equivocations to the neocons on foreign policy, his despicable civil liberties record, or his authoritarian style of governing.

Sorry to sound pessimistic, but the more I talk to mainstream "liberals", the more I realize how completely removed they are from the idealized image of them as enlightened knowledge-seekers whose utmost desire is to question authority and undermine the status-quo. The sycophantic, mean-spirited, unprincipled partisans of today would make REAL anti-establishment liberals like Abbie Hoffman or John Lennon retch.

teacherone
12-16-2010, 07:15 AM
Shades of Vietnam...*..

There is nothing to win and nothing to prove in Afghanista*n.....

There is no honor to protect as it was lost 5 years ago.....

It is time to come home.


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Lies, Lies, Lies !!!!!!!!!!*!!!!!!!!!!*!!!!!!!!!!*!!!!!!!

We are making progress if the definition of progress is empire building, m=ur=der=i*ng innocent people, destroying countries, and creating a non ending supply of enemies.
SamKnause: Lies, Lies, Lies !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are making progress if the


(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/SamKnause/obamas-afghanistan-pakistan-review-progress-sustained-commitment_n_797472_70938495.html)

The dems need a new candidate for 2012. Unless Obama is going to restart the draft without deferrment*s or exceptions*, including his daughter, and a 1% tax on all income to pay for the war, he is choosing to continue the slaughter of our forces without any investment from the country. This is not the leadership that we voted for.
grf67: The dems need a new candidate for 2012. Unless Obama


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More lies and BS from the white house. We the people don't matter to the MIC.
Carl_Caroli: More lies and BS from the white house. We the


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To all the leaders of our world,
the leaders of the US-led coalition,
the Afghan government*,
the ‘Taliban/A*l-Qaeda'
and regional countries,

We are intolerabl*y angry.

All our senses are hurting.

Our women, our men and yes shame on you, our children are grieving.

Your Afghan civilian-m*ilitary strategy is a murderous stench we smell, see, hear and breathe.

President Obama, and all the elite players and people of the world, why?

-Afghan Youth Peace Volunteers and Afghans for Peace


let's get the peace candidate vote!