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View Full Version : Important: How to bring my dad around to RP again




Son of Detroit
12-14-2010, 07:17 PM
I've gotten my dad to come around a bit to our side since 2008 from a strong neo-con position. He's against the Patriot act, questioning the wars, and feels the war on drugs is useless.

All of that is for naught it seems now. After watching Freedom Watch tonight with Ron Paul explaining his vote for the tax bill, my dad said he will never ever vote for Ron Paul for president because he's a "compromiser". He doesn't like that RP is voting for a bill that will increase spending. Says RP is nothing more than a typical politician.

I'm so frustrated...All of the progress I thought I had with him is gone. What can I say to bring him around again?

oyarde
12-14-2010, 07:19 PM
I've gotten my dad to come around a bit to our side since 2008 from a strong neo-con position. He's against the Patriot act, questioning the wars, and feels the war on drugs is useless.

All of that is for naught it seems now. After watching Freedom Watch tonight with Ron Paul explaining his vote for the tax bill, my dad said he will never ever vote for Ron Paul for president because he's a "compromiser". He doesn't like that RP is voting for a bill that will increase spending. Says RP is nothing more than a typical politician.

I'm so frustrated...All of the progress I thought I had with him is gone. What can I say to bring him around again?

Well , what does he think his alternative would be ? Put it up here and these guys will give you enough info to pick the flesh from the bone .

specsaregood
12-14-2010, 07:19 PM
I'm so frustrated...All of the progress I thought I had with him is gone. What can I say to bring him around again?

So dad, you prefer to have a president that thinks it has a right to assassinate american citizens without any due process?

Son of Detroit
12-14-2010, 07:21 PM
Well , what does he think his alternative would be ? Put it up here and these guys will give you enough info to pick the flesh from the bone .

He says Ron should vote no and wait for a bill that cuts taxes without raising spending.

FunkBuddha
12-14-2010, 07:26 PM
He says Ron should vote no and wait for a bill that cuts taxes without raising spending.

He'd probably vote for that too.

Anti Federalist
12-14-2010, 07:26 PM
My dad said he will never ever vote for Ron Paul for president because he's a "compromiser". He doesn't like that RP is voting for a bill that will increase spending. Says RP is nothing more than a typical politician.

*facepalm*

If there is anybody in Congress that is not "just a typical politician" and a "compromiser" it's Ron Paul.

I'm thinking your dad may be yanking your chain.

oyarde
12-14-2010, 07:27 PM
He says Ron should vote no and wait for a bill that cuts taxes without raising spending.

Actually , I think many pubs would wait ....... except , waiting presents real problems . This will cause selloff in the market between now and end of year , driving it down , employers who plan to hire early Jan. will not if they get a tax increase , increasing unemployment , then there is the estate tax problem , own a large farm , want to leave it to your kid ? better die by 12/31 .......

oyarde
12-14-2010, 07:28 PM
The screwed up economy may make a big nose dive for the worse if the tax cut is not extended ....

hazek
12-14-2010, 07:33 PM
Tell him that Ron would have done that if there was time. But it was either this bill, thanks to Obama, or nothing before the new year and the Bush tax cuts expire on 1.1.2012 so Ron thought voting for the bill was better then not extending the cuts.


And next you can tell him that even tho it says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." in the declaration of independence, he can't be ignorant and naive and think that others will assert this right for him.

If he doesn't want his government to infringe upon his rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness he is going to have to do his part, learn about the politicians in detail and then vote for the one who has a track record of following the rule of law. And if he doesn't he will have no right to complain and moan when his rights are taken away!

cswake
12-14-2010, 07:35 PM
I'm so frustrated...All of the progress I thought I had with him is gone. What can I say to bring him around again?Ask him what happens to the economy in 2011 if the Democrats block tax cuts...

sailingaway
12-14-2010, 07:42 PM
He'd probably vote for that too.

In a heartbeat he'd vote for that.

I was afraid this would happen. All the people who never paid attention to spending before are suddenly touting this vote as a litmus test, whereas Ron, who ALWAYS tries to cut spending and taxes, and has a more complicated and less two dimensional approach to legislation is going to be called out for this vote. And it is a vote the tea party will think means something whereas they won't be looking at other votes.

However, I don't know that he CAN vote against it. He has pledged never to vote to raise taxes, hasn't he? and has never voted to do so. And to vote against the bill would be to vote to raise taxes, wouldn't it? Because if the vote fails, taxes automatically rise.

He could abstain, I suppose.

This bill is sounding worse and worse to me, but I trust Ron, and he has more facts than I do.

oyarde
12-14-2010, 07:48 PM
In a heartbeat he'd vote for that.

I was afraid this would happen. All the people who never paid attention to spending before are suddenly touting this vote as a litmus test, whereas Ron, who ALWAYS tries to cut spending and taxes, and has a more complicated and less two dimensional approach to legislation is going to be called out for this vote. And it is a vote the tea party will think means something whereas they won't be looking at other votes.

However, I don't know that he CAN vote against it. He has pledged never to vote to raise taxes, hasn't he? and has never voted to do so. And to vote against the bill would be to vote to raise taxes, wouldn't it? He could abstain, I suppose.

Yes , voting against the bill is voting to steal more from taxpayers to go to Fed . Govt

Koz
12-14-2010, 07:50 PM
Ask pops who besides the good Doctor is the champion of the Constitution. Who besides Dr. Paul will lead the charge to audit the Federal Reseve. Who besides Dr. Paul will bring our troops home and institute a non-interventionist foreign policy to keep us safe on the home front. What politician has never voted for a tax increase. What politician vowed to eliminate the IRS? What politician actually advocates to actually reduce the size of government?

If he still won't come around then say that some people are just not smart enough to understand liberty because it hasn't been around for thousands of years, it is a relatively new concept.

angelatc
12-14-2010, 07:56 PM
Just buy him a gift subscription to American Conservative and be done with it.

I didn't see Freedom Watch tonight. Was Paul explaining that vote - the one where the Republicans voted against tax cuts, and the Democrats voted for them?

That's ridiculous. Why not take what you can get, then try to get more? I don't have any interest in raising taxes on the rich, but we would have been better off with that bill than the massive wad of pork that's rolling down to the House now.

Inkblots
12-14-2010, 07:57 PM
He says Ron should vote no and wait for a bill that cuts taxes without raising spending.

The Democratic Senate and especially President Obama will not vote for and sign an extension of the tax cuts without some inducement. If this compromise isn't passed now, no extension will be. That means taxes will go up on all Americans at year end, immediately doing huge damage to our economy.

It's true that the tax cut extension contains substantial additional spending, but the increase that causes in the deficit can theoretically be undone once the GOP House majority is sworn in: that can be fixed later. While on the other hand, the tax increase will come on Jan. 1 if nothing is done - that can't be fixed later. Voting 'no' on the compromise is quite literally voting 'yes' to a large tax increase.

Now, people of good will can disagree on this issue, but does your father really think that the option which causes delayed and fixable damage is preferable to that which causes immediate harm? There is time to vote for a bill that reduces spending without raising taxes - but there is quite literally no time at all to wait for a bill that prevents the tax increase without raising spending.

Son of Detroit
12-14-2010, 08:03 PM
Also, the death tax issue. This is one place I'm unclear on with this bill. I've heard it would raise the tax while other sources say it would lower it... What's the deal? I haven't been paying much attention to the news lately. Busy time of year.

Inkblots
12-14-2010, 08:05 PM
A good summary of the compromise can be found here: http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/2126-What-Exactly-Is-In-Obama-s-Tax-Cut-Unemployment-Extension-Compromise-


2. Two-year estate tax cut — Bush’s 2001 tax bill gradually scaled back the estate tax, a federal assessment on inherited wealth, to 0% in 2010. But because it was done using budget reconciliation, the bill sunsets after ten years (just like the income taxes) and the rate is scheduled to go back up on January 1st to the pre-Bush rate — 55%, with the first $675,000 being exempt. Obama’s proposal would lower this significantly for 2011 and 2012 — the first $5 million would be exempt and the rest would be taxed at 35%. This compromise is taken directly from a Sen. Blanche Lincoln [D, AR] amendment that was added to the 2010 budget resolution by a vote of 51-48.

So, in a sense it raises AND lowers the estate tax: the rate will be higher than it is now, but lower than it would be if no action is taken.

sailingaway
12-14-2010, 08:09 PM
Also, the death tax issue. This is one place I'm unclear on with this bill. I've heard it would raise the tax while other sources say it would lower it... What's the deal? I haven't been paying much attention to the news lately. Busy time of year.

I don't know if it changed in the last day or so, but it had no death tax to an estate of $5 million, or $5 mill each for a married couple, and 35% above that.

dannno
12-14-2010, 08:11 PM
Tell your dad to reverse the bill...

Pretend that it is a bill to raise taxes and decrease spending.

Ron Paul would HAVE to vote against it on principle because he can't vote for a tax increase.

That's essentially what this bill is, since it is a role reversal bill. So his "Yes" vote in this case is actually the same as the "No" vote in the above example.

cswake
12-14-2010, 08:11 PM
Ron Paul elaborated on the vote today on Freedom Watch:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si-6dCZSFj8

Son of Detroit
12-15-2010, 05:10 PM
Seems like I have no shot in changing his mind. He doesn't care if taxes go up, just "sick of congress compromising". It's basically all or nothing in his opinion. "This has got to stop. If it means my taxes go up for a couple of years so be it".
:(

oyarde
12-15-2010, 05:12 PM
Seems like I have no shot in changing his mind. He doesn't care if taxes go up, just "sick of congress compromising". It's basically all or nothing in his opinion. "This has got to stop. If it means my taxes go up for a couple of years so be it".
:(

Well if he has no regard for his money , let me know and I will send him an address he can mail some checks to :)

Inkblots
12-15-2010, 05:16 PM
Seems like I have no shot in changing his mind. He doesn't care if taxes go up, just "sick of congress compromising". It's basically all or nothing in his opinion. "This has got to stop. If it means my taxes go up for a couple of years so be it".
:(

Well, people who never compromise on anything ever tend to end up as mad gunmen, but if your father's being obdurate, I suppose there's nothing to be done.

Chieppa1
12-15-2010, 05:17 PM
Well if he has no regard for his money , let me know and I will send him an address he can mail some checks to :)

Tell him he has no regard for his PROPERTY. That always raises an eyebrow.

cswake
12-15-2010, 05:17 PM
Seems like I have no shot in changing his mind. He doesn't care if taxes go up, just "sick of congress compromising". It's basically all or nothing in his opinion. "This has got to stop. If it means my taxes go up for a couple of years so be it".
:(Ask him that, if there should be no compromising, he means we should immediately cut all Social Security checks? End Medicaid/Medicare? They are clearly unconstitutional, but funding them means a compromise.

What we need are compromises in the direction of less taxes & less spending. For the past 100 years we've headed in the other direction.

tangent4ronpaul
12-15-2010, 05:18 PM
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/images/clockwork_big.jpg

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/lsd-3.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/user/ronpauladcompetition

j/k :cool:

-t

Son of Detroit
12-15-2010, 05:19 PM
I don't think those arguments would work. Basically all he's saying is the games have to stop. "Make a stand right now and stop the games in Washington".

I think this is a lost cause.

sailingaway
12-15-2010, 05:19 PM
Seems like I have no shot in changing his mind. He doesn't care if taxes go up, just "sick of congress compromising". It's basically all or nothing in his opinion. "This has got to stop. If it means my taxes go up for a couple of years so be it".
:(

Well, it's a shame because if he wants someone who really doesn't compromise their principles, he can't do better than Ron. Unfortunately, the self important posturing types are trying to pretend this is about real conservatism when it isn't. Ron won't vote to raise the debt ceiling, and cuts will need to be made then, no matter what they vote now, if others vote the same.

dannno
12-15-2010, 05:20 PM
Seems like I have no shot in changing his mind. He doesn't care if taxes go up, just "sick of congress compromising". It's basically all or nothing in his opinion. "This has got to stop. If it means my taxes go up for a couple of years so be it".
:(

You should try and get him to watch the freedom watch clip, one of the things mentioned that is important is that if taxes go up, tax revenue may very well go down and this will hurt the economy a lot more.

oyarde
12-15-2010, 05:21 PM
You should try and get him to watch the freedom watch clip, one of the things mentioned that is important is that if taxes go up, tax revenue may very well go down and this will hurt the economy a lot more.

The economy will be further trashed if these tax rates expire . That is correct .

Son of Detroit
12-15-2010, 05:24 PM
You should try and get him to watch the freedom watch clip, one of the things mentioned that is important is that if taxes go up, tax revenue may very well go down and this will hurt the economy a lot more.

We were watching, that's when he made that comment after watching the interview.

Like I said, he doesn't care if the economy blows up. Just wants the games in Washington to stop. Also said maybe if the economy does totally falter then people will finally rise up in the streets to stop this, and he'll be right there with them.

I can see where he's coming from, I'm just disappointed he'll write off the only man who can stop this based off of one vote compared to years and years of constitutional voting.

dannno
12-15-2010, 05:27 PM
We were watching, that's when he made that comment after watching the interview.

Like I said, he doesn't care if the economy blows up. Just wants the games in Washington to stop. Also said maybe if the economy does totally falter then people will finally rise up in the streets to stop this, and he'll be right there with them.

I can see where he's coming from, I'm just disappointed he'll write off the only man who can stop this based off of one vote compared to years and years of constitutional voting.


RP isn't trying to play any games, he's trying to put his foot on the collective brake the best way he can.

Inkblots
12-15-2010, 05:30 PM
Just wants the games in Washington to stop. Also said maybe if the economy does totally falter then people will finally rise up in the streets to stop this, and he'll be right there with them.

Well, that's the key difference right there, isn't it? Ron Paul's out there every day working as hard as he can to prevent a complete systemic collapse from occurring. I don't want to see society break down either, so I support him 100%. But those who want to tear everything down and start over; who want to watch the world burn? Of course they won't be as enthused about the good doctor's efforts.

South Park Fan
12-15-2010, 05:30 PM
To be fair, I don't think your dad is necessarily wrong on this position. While I would rather both taxes and spending be eliminated, it may be better to tax the current generation which actually have representation in government, rather than increasing spending which is taxing the unrepresented future generations. This is especially true of a bill that would keep taxes from rising a measly 4% for a two-year time period compared with another trillion dollars in spending that will be an additional burden on future generations. The tax hikes will go into effect two years later than they otherwise would, and our children will be saddled with an even more burdensome debt.

hazek
12-15-2010, 05:42 PM
I have a feeling that the mentality of his father is probably similar to about 70% of the general public. He is pissed, he clearly can see that there's something wrong but is too disgusted by politics and too disheartened to actually calm down, learn about economics and learn the right direction to move out of this mess.

All he wants is a quick fix and to be left alone "or else".


I'm 90% convinced there's no more hope for a real change unless some smart general decides to impose martial law, take over the government, take over the TV stations, start broadcasting Austrian economics for half a year and then hold an election. :)

sailingaway
12-15-2010, 07:00 PM
By the way, I don't know if he is following the tea parties, but you could point out that FreedomWorks has come out in favor of the tax package. Another tea party group is against. It is just an area where people differ whether they will be able to get a better package and retroactive treatment, and don't want to give the hit to the economy. It is a tough decision for people, now. It isn't a litmus test like TARP or the stimulus or Obamacare.

dannno
12-15-2010, 07:07 PM
To be fair, I don't think your dad is necessarily wrong on this position. While I would rather both taxes and spending be eliminated, it may be better to tax the current generation which actually have representation in government, rather than increasing spending which is taxing the unrepresented future generations. This is especially true of a bill that would keep taxes from rising a measly 4% for a two-year time period compared with another trillion dollars in spending that will be an additional burden on future generations. The tax hikes will go into effect two years later than they otherwise would, and our children will be saddled with an even more burdensome debt.

Tax hikes often lead to less revenue collection and destroying the economy even further.. it would leave future generations with even more debt.. In the freedom watch episode Ron Paul goes through the numbers, he said as it is now he would vote for it because of what the numbers are.

oyarde
12-15-2010, 07:09 PM
By the way, I don't know if he is following the tea parties, but you could point out that FreedomWorks has come out in favor of the tax package. Another tea party group is against. It is just an area where people differ whether they will be able to get a better package and retroactive treatment, and don't want to give the hit to the economy. It is a tough decision for people, now. It isn't a litmus test like TARP or the stimulus or Obamacare.

The only litmus that compares to obomacare and that unstimulus would be LBJ and medicare/medicaid and Woodrow Wilson with the UN & segregating govt .

oyarde
12-15-2010, 07:23 PM
:)
I don't think those arguments would work. Basically all he's saying is the games have to stop. "Make a stand right now and stop the games in Washington".

I think this is a lost cause. :D Alright , but if he is willing to write more of my money off to the feds to waste , at the very least he can make a donation of one box of ammo to my favorite charity in compensation.

Rede
12-15-2010, 07:35 PM
All of that is for naught it seems now. After watching Freedom Watch tonight with Ron Paul explaining his vote for the tax bill, my dad said he will never ever vote for Ron Paul for president because he's a "compromiser". He doesn't like that RP is voting for a bill that will increase spending.

Point out that this was precisely the position those who always compromise want to put those who don't in to. It is political gamesmanship, but he should be directing his anger at the leadership of the two parties who came up with the idea rather than those forced to choose between bad and worse.

jmdrake
12-15-2010, 08:00 PM
We were watching, that's when he made that comment after watching the interview.

Like I said, he doesn't care if the economy blows up. Just wants the games in Washington to stop. Also said maybe if the economy does totally falter then people will finally rise up in the streets to stop this, and he'll be right there with them.

I can see where he's coming from, I'm just disappointed he'll write off the only man who can stop this based off of one vote compared to years and years of constitutional voting.

Ask him who he's planning on voting for in the alternative. Or better yet just wait 6 months before broaching the subject again. If he doesn't like compromise he can't vote for Sarah "bailouts create tax cuts" Palin or Mike "I raised taxes in Arkansas but I won't in D.C." Huckabee or Mitt "Romneycare good - Obamacare bad" Romney.

oyarde
12-15-2010, 08:01 PM
Ask him who he's planning on voting for in the alternative. Or better yet just wait 6 months before broaching the subject again. If he doesn't like compromise he can't vote for Sarah "bailouts create tax cuts" Palin or Mike "I raised taxes in Arkansas but I won't in D.C." Huckabee or Mitt "Romneycare good - Obamacare bad" Romney.

Well said . That Romneycare/Obamacare stuff is scary .

Son of Detroit
12-15-2010, 08:06 PM
Unless he changes his mind, he's not voting. At least that's better than giving a vote to someone else.

Inkblots
12-15-2010, 08:15 PM
Unless he changes his mind, he's not voting. At least that's better than giving a vote to someone else.

Not voting? I'm sure the an-caps approve!

oyarde
12-15-2010, 08:18 PM
Unless he changes his mind, he's not voting. At least that's better than giving a vote to someone else.

I hope he would consider voting in primary .....

hazek
12-15-2010, 08:44 PM
I know how you can change his mind and if you do as I tell you I guarantee you, come 2012 your father will vote for Ron Paul.


1.

Your problem with your father is his belief that everyone in D.C. is the same. He associates pain to giving his vote to a politician because he thinks they will screw him and he associates pleasure to just not giving a fuck and putting politics completely out of his mind.

2.

Beliefs can change and it's perfectly possible for you to achieve that if you approach the task with the right strategy. And the right thing to do is reverse the pain-pleasure associations to his belief. You have to convince him that him giving up has, is and is going to cause him a major amount of pain. And you have to convince him that him engaging in politics and learning and researching is going to give him a massive amount of pleasure.

Now I don't know the man so I'm only guessing how to do this, but you should be able to grasp the general idea and modify if necessary:

a)
Explain to him that the reason why he lives in a country that's in an economic mess right now is because of people like him. Explain to him that because he didn't care until now he must use a dolar, that's losing value, live in a country with record deficits and debt and must fear for his security not only from people from other countries that USA pissed off but even of his own government if it ever decides that it doesn't like him. Explain to him how things are only going to get worse,how he's going to sufer even more then he already does, especially if he doesn't get involved and try to change things and explain to him that if he does nothing it could get as bad as living under martial law, struggling to find something to eat, losing all his freedoms, his job, his home, his family - everything.

I'm exaggerating but say what ever you think he will associate the most amount of pain with.

Tell him to think about the future, ask to think about if he feels bad right now, how much worse he is going to feel in a year, then 2 years, then 5 years, then 15 years and then ask him how is he going to feel when he is old on his death bad thinking back knowing that he could have done something.

b)
And then present the alternative. Explain to him that every vote counts and how proud of him self he will be to have done something, explain to him that if he starts talking to his friends, coworkers he can contribute even more votes, explain to him that all it takes is for one sane person to be president for real change to happen, explain to him he will be able to feel proud to have done the right thing, to feel joy to have fought for his rights, to feel safety for his family, his home and his future if he only does the right thing and start caring.

And paint a picture of how the country could look like in say 10 years if enough people get motivated to do the right thing, how much can be achieved, how good it will feel to finally have prosperity again, how good it will feel to have done something for you, his child and eventually his grandchildren.

Again I'm exaggerating again but you probably know what would make your dad feel good.



If you manage to get him to associate enough pain with his current apathy and enough pleasure with him getting evolved I guarantee you he will change his mind and start paying attention.

And when he does, don't shove Ron down his throat right away instead expose him to mises.org and other libertarian sites where he can learn which is the right answer to our problems and his support for Ron will come naturally.


It's simple but not easy. You will have to get him in a really good mood first so he will listen and talk with you before you try what I told you to do, but if you succeed I guarantee you, voting for Ron will be the least he will do.

p.s.: my instructions are basically from this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BED5oOvYBk4

p.s.: good luck

Son of Detroit
12-15-2010, 08:54 PM
+1 hazek. Excellent post, will definitely try.

hazek
12-15-2010, 09:06 PM
No problem, just what ever you do, make sure he is in a good mood before you start talking about it and make sure to tell him how much this means to you if he just listens for a second. Rapport is extremely important if you want to get through to him.

AuH2O
12-16-2010, 12:22 PM
I've gotten my dad to come around a bit to our side since 2008 from a strong neo-con position. He's against the Patriot act, questioning the wars, and feels the war on drugs is useless.

All of that is for naught it seems now. After watching Freedom Watch tonight with Ron Paul explaining his vote for the tax bill, my dad said he will never ever vote for Ron Paul for president because he's a "compromiser". He doesn't like that RP is voting for a bill that will increase spending. Says RP is nothing more than a typical politician.

I'm so frustrated...All of the progress I thought I had with him is gone. What can I say to bring him around again?

Here's what you tell him:

1) The Democrats have the votes to pass the Unemployment insurance extension without GOP support. They've done it before.
2) The Democrats probably have the votes to pass the "middle class" tax cuts without GOP help.
3) The "compromise" is nothing more than the Democrats caving in on top marginal tax rates, and gaining nothing they couldn't already get. The remaining "compromise" is agreeing to an death tax of 35% on estates over $5mil, as opposed to 55% on estates over 1mil.

The GOP should NOT hold out for the new Congress and try for something better. They could get it through the House, and maybe fight it through the Senate, but Obama would likely never sign it. In the meantime, the Dems would probably have passed the unemployment spending anyhow. Even if Obama does sign it, you've improved nothing other than the estate tax, and where does all that spent political capital put the GOP in terms of fighting for additional (and more fundamental) tax reform?

erowe1
12-16-2010, 12:50 PM
He says Ron should vote no and wait for a bill that cuts taxes without raising spending.

RP already did vote for a bill that cut taxes without raising spending. He was one of only 3 Republicans who did, before that bill didn't get passed in the Senate. And he was excoriated by the party faithful for it.

He can't win.