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eugenekop
12-14-2010, 02:50 PM
Most of the western countries were not welfare states in the 19th century, but they evolved into welfare states unanimously in the last 100 years. Can someone explain this phenomenon? Rivalries of libertarianism use this to argue that a state without welfare is not sustainable. So any ideas?

cswake
12-14-2010, 03:05 PM
Can someone explain this phenomenon?Read James Madison. Long story short, government has power and that power will be abused by corruptable people for their own benefit, under the guise of addressing the needs of the majority at the expense of the minority.


Rivalries of libertarianism use this to argue that a state without welfare is not sustainable. So any ideas? How does this make sense? You're saying that a society that has no welfare will eventually "evolve" into one that does. Yet, societies that have welfare systems will eventually collapse. So a free society with no welfare should be blamed for not being sustainable?

RedStripe
12-14-2010, 03:10 PM
Most of the western countries were not welfare states in the 19th century, but they evolved into welfare states unanimously in the last 100 years. Can someone explain this phenomenon? Rivalries of libertarianism use this to argue that a state without welfare is not sustainable. So any ideas?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?272728-How-to-make-the-case-for-ending-the-welfare-state/page2

It's no coincidence because the western countries are all, more or less, based on the same system of production.

guitarlifter
12-14-2010, 03:27 PM
I believe that it has to do with the love of power and general evil that creates welfare states over time. Until people get fed up with their government and see the evil in it, it will naturally continue to grow due to corruptibility from within. It's almost cyclical. It starts off with a libertarian-based government (what God wants) that slowly converts itself into a welfare state over time, and then a harsh battle occurs that restores the libertarian-based government. It's the same thing with Christianity. Over time, the Judaizers corrupted the word of Jesus, and it is Paul who fought tooth and nail to restore the Word to its proper former glory. Again around 1500AD, the Catholic church had corrupted Christianity once again, and it was Martin Luther who had to fight to get the Word restored to its proper former glory via the Reformation. Looking at a broader spectrum of this cycle, it is how the world and the devil works in general; evil cannot simply come in abruptly, for, if it tried to do so, it would be thrown out completely because of our better judgment, but, because it comes in so slowly with soothing words that overpower our better judgment, it grows in power over time. This is why we must stick to our guns from start to finish.

Here's a good metaphor that will help explain this; if you throw a frog into a boiling pot of water, it's going to immediately jump out or at least try to. The point is that it knows something's up. However, if you start the frog off in a cold pot of water, then slowly bring it up to boiling temperatures, the frog will never leave the pot, and it will be boiled alive. The physiology behind this is that the frog, being a cold-blooded animal, is reacting to the drastic change in blood temperature. If the frog is allowed to acclimate to its water, it will stay there until it dies because it will sense no rapid change for the worse.

Thomas Jefferson once said the following concerning why we should never step beyond the boundaries of the Constitution: "I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people." To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition." Once people taste power, they want more, and the heart is deceptive (as it says throughout the Bible), and it will try to justify its means, when, in the end, it was just for power. On top of this, when people are raised to believe in the welfare state or neoconservatism, even if they know the word, they will still stick to believing in a welfare state or neoconservatism because of the way they've been taught. Patrick J. Buchanan talks about how you cannot force virtue upon a population, for it must be chosen. "Our country . . . may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong," Buchanan quotes in his book, showing how people will latch onto homegrown ideas like a baby monkey does to its mother. Seeing how the welfare state has been shoved down their throats since childhood, making it a homegrown idea, they will use emotion as opposed to logic and reason in order to justify their homegrown beliefs. This is why the logical people in today's society (libertarians) seem crazy to neoconservatives and the like, despite the fatal discrepancies in both the actual practice (how the government actually is today) and theoretical neoconservatism.

Sorry if some of you don't believe in Christianity, but my political beliefs are based straight off of Christianity, for I am a Christian first and last. With that said, I believe that the libertarian ideology is closest to what God wants me to believe in terms of a political ideology. I think, despite the Christian references, this description can at least somewhat apply to all who accept the libertarian ideology.

fisharmor
12-14-2010, 03:37 PM
Rivalries of libertarianism use this to argue that a state without welfare is not sustainable. So any ideas?

Rivals of libertarianism first need to explain why the state itself is even desirable, before we discuss how best to sustain it.
Many of us have become fairly convinced that it is not.
Saying that welfare is necessary for the state is like telling me that if you don't steal my money, you won't be able to pay for the donkey that kicks me in the balls every night.

Acala
12-14-2010, 04:06 PM
Saying that welfare is necessary for the state is like telling me that if you don't steal my money, you won't be able to pay for the donkey that kicks me in the balls every night.

Ahahahahahahahaha!!!!

torchbearer
12-14-2010, 05:18 PM
democracy is a tryanny of the majority. it always evolves into the majority enslaving the minority.
that is why we were not a democracy, and why democracy should be seen as the same as any other form of tyranny.
Keeping the world safe for democracy- spreading democracy...

awake
12-14-2010, 05:25 PM
Check out the godfather of modern welfare Otto Von Bismarck (http://mises.org/daily/1275). Naturally, any one bent on power for power sake can not ignore the benefits of welfare in its attainment.

FrankRep
12-14-2010, 06:18 PM
Democracy is the road to socialism

- Karl Marx

RedStripe
12-14-2010, 06:55 PM
democracy is a tryanny of the majority. it always evolves into the majority enslaving the minority.
that is why we were not a democracy, and why democracy should be seen as the same as any other form of tyranny.
Keeping the world safe for democracy- spreading democracy...

1. Our system is not a democracy in theory or practice.

2. It is the minority which has enslaved the majority, and this is true for 10,000 years in virtually every civilization.

So long as social power within a society is distributed in the shape of a pyramid, with only a small few controlling the majority of wealth and political power (the same thing, in essence), there is no democracy and there is no liberty.