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View Full Version : Has there ever been a real democracy?




Icymudpuppy
12-13-2010, 11:00 AM
Hello RPFs!

A question. We often hear pundits refer to us as a democracy, or that we are bringing Democracy to the middle east, but I think there never has been a real democracy in any government in history... Republics, and democratic republics abound, but true democracies have never existed.

A true democracy would not have any official leaders.. No representatives, no president, no prime minister, nothing of the like.

What laws there are, would be based on a majority vote of all the people, and no leader would have veto power.

In my state, we have a legal backdoor to repeal bad laws, and propose new laws referred to as the people's initiative process. Over the last 20 years, one man has become the unofficial leader of lowering our taxes through the initiative process. The state legislature keeps raising taxes, and each year we the people democratically vote to eliminate their tax hikes. Our legislature recently had to make $580,000,000 budget cuts based on our initiatives for economic freedom. On the other hand, our initiatives have also been a tool of fewer social liberties. Our public smoking ban was a result of the initiative process, as was our trapping ban.

fisharmor
12-13-2010, 11:36 AM
A true democracy would not have any official leaders.. No representatives, no president, no prime minister, nothing of the like.

What laws there are, would be based on a majority vote of all the people, and no leader would have veto power.

Well, I take it from your sig line and the experiences with your state that you're not a fan.
Pure democracy would quickly devolve into genocide or civil war. All it takes is for 90% of the population to agree that the other 10% ought not to be here.
The things you mention - supermajorities and leaders with veto power - are there to keep things under control.
If the population was able by simple majority to do whatever it wished, that would be the situation everyone things of when they think "anarchy".
After a 15-20% reduction in population, the people might actually come to their senses and start a dialogue about how that system of government is bogus.

Brian4Liberty
12-13-2010, 11:58 AM
Unfortunately, the Initiative Process usually works with a simple majority. It is the tyranny of the 50.00001% of the people to oppress the other 49.99999% of the people.

My suggestion: passing new laws should take a 90% majority, to repeal laws should only take a 50% (simple) majority.

fisharmor
12-13-2010, 12:02 PM
Make it 90/40 and I'm on board.

romacox
12-13-2010, 12:30 PM
Greece was a democracy. The Founding Fathers studied that government (among others), and realized that the majority could vote to take your land...in other words it was something they were against because the individual's freedoms could be taken by the majority.

History also points out that governments that collapsed resorted to a democratic government before their collapse.

Madly_Sane
12-13-2010, 12:34 PM
Greece was a democracy. The Founding Fathers studied that government (among others), and realized that the majority could vote to take your land...in other words it was something they were against because the individual's freedoms could be taken by the majority.

History also points out that governments that collapsed resorted to a democratic government before their collapse.

Hmm, I wonder, since our founding fathers 'resorted' to a 'democratic republic', if we will collapse because of that decision. :confused:

fisharmor
12-13-2010, 12:49 PM
Greece was a democracy. The Founding Fathers studied that government (among others), and realized that the majority could vote to take your land...in other words it was something they were against because the individual's freedoms could be taken by the majority.
Greece was no such thing.
Athens was marginally democratic (though their slaves and women might have disagreed).
Sparta was an oligarchy,
Thebes led a local confederacy.
Corinth was led by tyrants at one point.
Many of them changed government structure over time.
Their "Greekness" was cultural and linguistic - it had nothing to do with the state.


History also points out that governments that collapsed resorted to a democratic government before their collapse.
I can't think of an example of this. All the collapses I can think of were either due to foreign pressure, financial reasons, or civil unrest. Which did you have in mind?

Icymudpuppy
12-13-2010, 01:00 PM
So, the consensus is that there has never been a true democracy, and that any such thing based on simple majorities is drastically flawed.

12 is considered a divine number for finding consensus. There were 12 Apostles, 12 men sit on a Jury, etc.

11 out of 12 is 91.67%

What if we started our own democracy 91.67% super majority to pass new laws with each law expiring after 5 years, and 50% simple majority to repeal old laws before their time. Perhaps a Sims like game could be designed to test this concept.

Madly_Sane
12-13-2010, 01:04 PM
12/13 is 92.3% :eek:

Icymudpuppy
12-13-2010, 01:13 PM
12/13 is 92.3% :eek:

I mentioned 11 of 12, but if you want 12 of 13, that's okay by me.

Madly_Sane
12-13-2010, 01:15 PM
Sweet! :p

mconder
12-13-2010, 01:47 PM
The mob that demanded Pilot ignore the law and slay Jesus was a very effective democracy, although short in it's lifespan.

Promontorium
12-13-2010, 01:58 PM
Athens was a democracy. All citizens would gather and vote on everything. - good enough for government work. It didn't last long.

romacox
12-13-2010, 02:05 PM
Hmm, I wonder, since our founding fathers 'resorted' to a 'democratic republic', if we will collapse because of that decision. :confused:

When I was in college in the 60s, we were being taught we were a Democratic Republic. My father, educated much earlier, would say, "no. We are a Republic.

I wrongfully thought my professors and college text books knew more than my Dad. Ever noticed that we pledge allegiance to "the Republic":. Dad was right. Today' leaders are leaving out the word republic altogether, calling it a Democracy. Like so many things, it is about misinformation so that we cannot find our way back to the Constitution.