Any of you out there rural, subsistence types?

[rodent]

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[rodent]

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[klamath]

I live on a homestead and generate my own power and grow a lot of food but I am not self sustaining yet.

[rodent]

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[RP4ME]

I am very intereste din this as well!

[fj45lvr]

You can sustain alot on your own but to do it you have to invest in the necessary items needed and even at that there will be certain things necessary to "purchase" unless you were not to farm with any "motorized" implements....One could create ethanol from various types of natural things and run certain engines with it but typically those that are doing that are already growing HUGE quantities of corn or wheat already in the course of their farming operations. Steam engines would be feasible for tractor but I don't think there are many of those manufacturers currently.

Most definetly with horse driven plow you could grow enough to make it.

[RP4ME]

You can sustain alot on your own but to do it you have to invest in the necessary items needed and even at that there will be certain things necessary to "purchase" unless you were not to farm with any "motorized" implements....One could create ethanol from various types of natural things and run certain engines with it but typically those that are doing that are already growing HUGE quantities of corn or wheat already in the course of their farming operations. Steam engines would be feasible for tractor but I don't think there are many of those manufacturers currently.

Most definetly with horse driven plow you could grow enough to make it.

There hs been resurgence in horse nd plow farming and supposedly its s efficient if not more so! Who knew?


goto WWW.SOLARIACTIONNETWORK.COM these are folsk interested in the same siutation many have been planning for years now.....i wish I had known

[Daveforliberty]

I'd love to find some like-minded Ron Paulers to form a community (not a commune) in South Dakota. I'm currently in Washington State. Thinking everyone pools their resources to buy lots of property, but each owns their own section. Each family be as connected or disconnected from the world as they want to be. We help each other by sharing our skills and maybe farming together, etc.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I'd like to talk to some people who live entirely off of the land and actually have a self-sustained power setup. Lately, I've become obsessed with moving away from city-life and learning to live off of the land -- even if only on a very basic level.

Any of you out there actual farmers who can live off of your land entirely without any assistance from the outside world?

How can you when you are taxed on your land? Prevents you from living entirely off of the land, you have to earn some sort of income.

[constituent]

You can actually begin phasing out of existance today if you choose to do so. Here is how:

Begin by looking around in your local public and university libraries for your state's equivalent
to this (http://txdot.lib.utexas.edu/) and then find several of the counties surrounding that in which you've chosen to live. Print several copies of each county map and then spend some time driving aroud. Watch for areas of disturbed land like fencelines, railroads and things of the like.

Prior to driving around spend some time in your local library looking for books about edible and medicinal plants of your region. You will probably be surprised to find that there is wealth of information available, likely written in the late 20/30's or 60/70's (atleast around here). Familiarize yourself with several plants, then do a google search for "plant key+(whatever plants you're interested in)" and spend some time looking around.

While driving mark areas containing an abundance of your edible plants and remember that every season something has some edible part, you just have to know what you're looking for. After awhile, maybe a couple of years, you'll be familiar w/ several areas of great production and you'll begin to find your favorite spots that are the best producers and most importantly, begin to recognize the traits of high production spots for wild foods (year round).

On electricity the key is diversity. Your number one killer is cooling costs, so that is your major peak to climb. The other thing is, fighting your own individualistic nature and looking to you neighbors to form energy production cooperatives. Utilizing this you can take advantage of many cheap forms of alternative energy that do not translate well to large scale production/transmission. Another alternative is going through the licensing to run an ethanol still and use the many self fermenting ditch plants that are available year round on the nation's rural highways and backroads (they are abundant, some producing ethanol in ratio's of 5:1 against corn per acre). This is an abundant energy source that is at present not only untapped, but mowed down every year and burnt as refuse.

These are only a few small things. If you've taken the time to read all of this I can elaborate more for you on any of it.

edit: P.S. Don't waste your time w/ a plow and farm equipment, monoculture is dead. A world of abundance exists at your fingertips.

[Corydoras]

How can you when you are taxed on your land? Prevents you from living entirely off of the land, you have to earn some sort of income.

You can do stuff like selling garden seedlings (tomato, eggplant, pepper, cucumber, cantaloupe, marigold), which is hard work but not bad money, especially when the people around your area learn you are doing this every year.

[Primbs]

Here in DC they just had a solar energy competition for house designs.

http://www.solardecathlon.org/

[thompsonisland]

We don't homestead, although we are working towards more subsistence, but even when we finally get up and running we won't be entirely off the grid. However, the division of labor is not a bad thing, even if you don't want to make/spend money. There are lots of ways to trade with people who have stuff you want, including labor-for-goods. In Maine we have a time bank, although I don't know much about it.

[klamath]

Ok, I just got back in from building the tool to build the tool to build the tool to build my replacement water turbine. I have been doing the homestead thing for over 40 years and I grew up doing this.
If you are looking for land here are my suggestions. Look for land with at least 20 acres of good soil and your own source of water. If you rely on summer rains to water your crops all it takes is one dry period and your food source is dead and you to follow.
If you have falling water in the form of a stream or river this makes for a great energy source to pump water or creat electric power. Wind and solar are good but more expensive sources of electricity. If you are trying to grow your own liquid fuel I believe your best source is biodiesel. If requires the least amount of refinery equipment and takes very little engine modification to use. Believe me the more of your infrastructure you build the more time it takes to keep running. The last thing you want is to be have you infrastructure so complacated you cant keep it going with the time you have available. Livestock is an important
for the nitrogen cycle in your farming. Remember that most of your nitrogen fertilizers come from petro chemicals now.

Well I guess I better not write a book here on the subject.

[porcupine]

I'd like to talk to some people who live entirely off of the land and actually have a self-sustained power setup. Lately, I've become obsessed with moving away from city-life and learning to live off of the land -- even if only on a very basic level.

Any of you out there actual farmers who can live off of your land entirely without any assistance from the outside world?

If you want to do that (cut yourself off from the rest of society), it might help to have a community of liberty minded people around you...Especially one where you can buy and sell in hard metals so you don't have to use FRNs. Check out the Free State Project (see my signature below).

Also, take a look at survivalblog.com

[Spirit of '76]

Well I guess I better not write a book here on the subject.

Please don't hesitate to keep sharing your thoughts on this topic. It's very interesting to lots of us.

[EvilEngineer]

If you guys are interested in information on this subject, check out the zombie squad forums. They have a massive forum covering all aspects of survival and self-sufficiency. I post over there too. =)

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/index.php

[ladycat]

You guys interested in learning more need to check out homesteadingtoday.com Lots of very helpful homesteading types hang out there.

[rodent]

..

[aravoth]

I used to be self sustaining, and now I live in the city. What a shithole. I hate it. It stinks, there's garbage everywhere, there's a cast system. I don't have any idea how people can live like this. I've done it for less than a year, and I am about to go insane.

Anyway. A good water source, is key. I prefer living next to a river, or something that will survive a drought, but not flood you out of house and home in the winter. Flooding isn't all bad, I've been through a few. It's good for the soil. Get some critters. Cows, pigs, a horse or two. Etc. I had a few rabbits, which ended up turning into a few hundred rabbits. No, I didn't allow the stupid bunnies to run all over the place, I caged them. And I used thier manure to fertilized my 3 acre garden. Had great seasons doing that. I sold the rest off to folks in my area. Turns out that rabbit shit is a pretty good fertilizer. Learn how to shoot a rifle, Learn how dress wild game. blahh, I'm rambling.

It's all really easy guys. You'd be suprised at how incredibly natural you are at it once you start doing it. It's what our bodies where built for, not sitting in a cubicle in the middle of some shithole office building.

[Man from La Mancha]

Thanks for the zombie link. Fortunately rural taxes are pretty cheap. Here is a link to How To Build Your Own Underground Home. I have the video course. All I can say is mind blowing great. It is very easy and cheap to do with a ton of light coming in. People have built 5000sg.ft homes for under $20,000. They are also dry, little maintenance, warm in the winter and cool in the summer with very little energy input, super quiet and can't be seen from the surface very well. The author discovered that to build a house underground one uses the same shape of a home above ground which is a slopped roof, the no.1 reason people with underground homes have problems is the flat roofs they have. Also he creates a step terrace in the rear of the home to take the pressure off the rear uphill wall which he can also control water run off. The big secrete is he uses a beam and post construction like mines do. He digs out the hole and puts up posts then beams then planks covering it. Now he covers it all in plastic polyethylene which will last forever underground. Then he just covers it all up. For the floor, he just smooths out the ground covers it plastic and a carpet, very easy to get to pipes and the like under the floor.
http://www.undergroundhousing.com/videos.html

diesel generators that last 50,000 hrs..http://psychicworldusa.com/Lister_Gen/Lister1.html

another fuel source..an oil press to run the diesel...http://stores.ebay.com/PowerfulSolutions
http://farmshow.com/issues/30/04/300403.asp..show you how
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html..how much oil from crops, gal/acre

How to build a 20ft dia. windmill from scratch and whole lot more homemade power end energy stuff..http://www.otherpower.com/20page1.html...It seems that even in the calm summer winds this machine is producing all the power we need, and between the two wind turbines I have surplus.


.

[klamath]

Backwoods home magazine is another good source. here is a link to the editors endorsement of RP. http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/silveira104lw.html.
For small hydroelectric turbines a great source is microhydro E group on Yahoo. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/microhydro/messages It is geared toward micro hydro techology for the third word which is basically what you need. A good portion of the worldwide small turbine manufacturers hang out there and there is some real intelligent engineers there. A word of warning though, do some research on the subject before you go on and ask a question like how do you build a hydro plant.
If you live in a canyon wind doesn't work good. Too many eddies.

[klamath]

I used to be self sustaining, and now I live in the city. What a shithole. I hate it. It stinks, there's garbage everywhere, there's a cast system. I don't have any idea how people can live like this. I've done it for less than a year, and I am about to go insane.

Anyway. A good water source, is key. I prefer living next to a river, or something that will survive a drought, but not flood you out of house and home in the winter. Flooding isn't all bad, I've been through a few. It's good for the soil. Get some critters. Cows, pigs, a horse or two. Etc. I had a few rabbits, which ended up turning into a few hundred rabbits. No, I didn't allow the stupid bunnies to run all over the place, I caged them. And I used thier manure to fertilized my 3 acre garden. Had great seasons doing that. I sold the rest off to folks in my area. Turns out that rabbit shit is a pretty good fertilizer. Learn how to shoot a rifle, Learn how dress wild game. blahh, I'm rambling.

It's all really easy guys. You'd be suprised at how incredibly natural you are at it once you start doing it. It's what our bodies where built for, not sitting in a cubicle in the middle of some shithole office building.

What were you thinking?:D

[klamath]

Something I might add is I have laughed so many times when I hear people talk about coming out in the woods to survive if there is a total ecconomic chaos. "Just get me a gun as I know how to hunt and I will go out in the woods and survive." Yeaw right. When there are millions with the same thought the wild game is going to last maybe a month!

[murrayrothbard]

Have been interested in this stuff off and on for a while now. As for food I have heard this (http://www.amazon.com/Mini-Farming-Sufficiency-Brett-Markham/dp/0615134580) book was good (haven't read it though).

Only problem with leaving out in the sticks is leaving my cable modem... :( I love my internet :)

[klamath]

Have been interested in this stuff off and on for a while now. As for food I have heard this (http://www.amazon.com/Mini-Farming-Sufficiency-Brett-Markham/dp/0615134580) book was good (haven't read it though).

Only problem with leaving out in the sticks is leaving my cable modem... :( I love my internet :)

Satelite internet:D

[aravoth]

Something I might add is I have laughed so many times when I hear people talk about coming out in the woods to survive if there is a total ecconomic chaos. "Just get me a gun as I know how to hunt and I will go out in the woods and survive." Yeaw right. When there are millions with the same thought the wild game is going to last maybe a month!

I've thought about this. But most people don't know how to hunt. They can shoot for sure, but hunt? I can see it now. I bunch of people wearing brand new "hunting" clothes. lol, a veritable sea of blaze orange. Bwahahaha!, they'd prolly be talking on thier cell phones the whole time. Snapping every single stick they can. Even if they did shoot something it's most likely be a squirrel. But if they did get something, like a white tail, then what? I could just see the horror in thier eyes when they realize they need to slice open it's gut, put your hands inside, grab onto the throat, and pull. Yeah......that would be awsome. Shit, I hope there is a major collapse, this would be hilarious to watch.

Anyway, yeah, people that can hunt will be out in mass, which is why I say always have livestock.

[constituent]

What would it look like if TSHTF (http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Fields-Sam-Waterston/dp/B00004RF82/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5595398-4682448?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1193069603&sr=8-1)?

[rodent]

..

[Meatwasp]

Just raise a garden and you'll have all the deer you want. They will strip it down.

[rodent]

..

[constituent]

I couldn't kill an animal (mammals in particular) without a guilty conscience. I'd only do it if my life was on the line. I can eat fish with less guilt, but mammals are like cousins with interesting hair in my eyes.

uhhhh, you've never been hungry. not as an insult, but if you (or your children) were going without food you will kill anything that moved. trust your instincts, they're there whether you've used them or not.

i actually have more trouble with killing fish.

[klamath]

This worries me also, so I'm trying to figure out a multi-pronged strategy. First step is the simple one: keep 1-2 years of food supplies, secure, and underground. Second step is to get independent power. Third step is to learn to fish, or breed fish in a pool/pond. Fourth and very last step is hunting and farming.

I couldn't kill an animal (mammals in particular) without a guilty conscience. I'd only do it if my life was on the line. I can eat fish with less guilt, but mammals are like cousins with interesting hair in my eyes.

Not many people like to kill, but when you are taking care of yourself you need to put the guilt behind. It is not something you like to do but when you and your family are relying on the killing of animals to survive you will think different. One time decades ago our family made some bad decisions about not killing preditors. My normal weight is 150 lbs and I dropped to 109 lbs. When you are in that state mammals are FOOD.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

You can do stuff like selling garden seedlings (tomato, eggplant, pepper, cucumber, cantaloupe, marigold), which is hard work but not bad money, especially when the people around your area learn you are doing this every year.

Yeah. I know of some hippie communes that sell stuff in order to raise money. They usually will make things themselves and then just sell it in their travels. I bet that sounds a bit too anarcho communist to some here lol I don't have a problem with anarcho communism, anarcho communist societies would most definitely flourish in a stateless environment. I would join one.

[klamath]

I've thought about this. But most people don't know how to hunt. They can shoot for sure, but hunt? I can see it now. I bunch of people wearing brand new "hunting" clothes. lol, a veritable sea of blaze orange. Bwahahaha!, they'd prolly be talking on thier cell phones the whole time. Snapping every single stick they can. Even if they did shoot something it's most likely be a squirrel. But if they did get something, like a white tail, then what? I could just see the horror in thier eyes when they realize they need to slice open it's gut, put your hands inside, grab onto the throat, and pull. Yeah......that would be awsome. Shit, I hope there is a major collapse, this would be hilarious to watch.

Anyway, yeah, people that can hunt will be out in mass, which is why I say always have livestock.

Ewww. Yuuuck!:D:D

[pcosmar]

I have a small (20 acre) Farm. I am not self sustaining yet but am moving in that direction.
I am not sure that I would go 100% self sustaining, but I would like to be self supporting.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/226/524049696_5ad0f15010.jpg

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I've thought about this. But most people don't know how to hunt. They can shoot for sure, but hunt? I can see it now. I bunch of people wearing brand new "hunting" clothes. lol, a veritable sea of blaze orange. Bwahahaha!, they'd prolly be talking on thier cell phones the whole time. Snapping every single stick they can. Even if they did shoot something it's most likely be a squirrel. But if they did get something, like a white tail, then what? I could just see the horror in thier eyes when they realize they need to slice open it's gut, put your hands inside, grab onto the throat, and pull. Yeah......that would be awsome. Shit, I hope there is a major collapse, this would be hilarious to watch.

Anyway, yeah, people that can hunt will be out in mass, which is why I say always have livestock.

I can learn lol I must admit I don't like the idea of gutting, but I guess if I'm hungry I have to, eh? “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”

I don't care about my attire, I'd hunt naked if I had to :p

[Daveforliberty]

I really enjoy Mother Earth News magazine, but I really love Hobby Farms magazine. I just feel good every time I read it.

BTW if anyone is interested in kicking around the idea of forming a community in the northern Black Hills of South Dakota, send me a message. South Dakota is one of the more free states, and close to or at #1 in lowest taxes and lowest cost of living.

[lucius]

I am a off-grid-guy as well--my last house that I built, I converted from a surplus Whiskey-Kilo Quonset-hut smack right in the middle of remote 42.8 hectares with a un-logged water well. Bio-diesel pollutes too much, most don’t have the snap to use the more expensive caustic catalyst, and end-up creating minor superfund sites. I converted a diesel truck to run on straight/waste vegetable oil to circumvent the issue. Big fan of Lister powered generators…

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I really enjoy Mother Earth News magazine, but I really love Hobby Farms magazine. I just feel good every time I read it.

BTW if anyone is interested in kicking around the idea of forming a community in the northern Black Hills of South Dakota, send me a message. South Dakota is one of the more free states, and close to or at #1 in lowest taxes and lowest cost of living.

I'm interested. I will consider all propositions.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Ok, I just got back in from building the tool to build the tool to build the tool to build my replacement water turbine. I have been doing the homestead thing for over 40 years and I grew up doing this.
If you are looking for land here are my suggestions. Look for land with at least 20 acres of good soil and your own source of water. If you rely on summer rains to water your crops all it takes is one dry period and your food source is dead and you to follow.
If you have falling water in the form of a stream or river this makes for a great energy source to pump water or creat electric power. Wind and solar are good but more expensive sources of electricity. If you are trying to grow your own liquid fuel I believe your best source is biodiesel. If requires the least amount of refinery equipment and takes very little engine modification to use. Believe me the more of your infrastructure you build the more time it takes to keep running. The last thing you want is to be have you infrastructure so complacated you cant keep it going with the time you have available. Livestock is an important
for the nitrogen cycle in your farming. Remember that most of your nitrogen fertilizers come from petro chemicals now.

Well I guess I better not write a book here on the subject.

How about building a green house? This would eliminate the drought factor. Or maybe do both, have the green house(s) as insurance.

[Man from La Mancha]

Five Acres and Independence (Paperback).....http://www.amazon.com/Five-Acres-Independence-Maurice-Kains/dp/0486209741/ref=pd_sim_b_shvl_img_2/102-8717980-4292963

An excellent guide to the realities of a small farm., August 26, 1999
By A Customer

I have a 1946 edition of this book which my father used as a reference in supplying our family all of our food from 1948 until 1962 and a large portion of our food thereafter. I have referred to it on a regular basis since 1972. While the precise numbers for costs and quantity of production are dated, the basic principles for successful small farming are clearly elucidated. You can update the costs and quantities yourself. Some of the information on animal breeds should be updated by additional research. But the priciples are all here. The chapters on "City vs. Country Life" and "Tried and True Ways to Fail" are essential reading if you have never been involved in agriculture previously. I have many reference books, and this is one of the best...with a tattered cover and yellowed pages!

Not the latest which there a lot of and should be looked at, but a basic encouragement

.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

You guys interested in learning more need to check out homesteadingtoday.com Lots of very helpful homesteading types hang out there.

Cool forum ;) I read "raising rabbits for profit." I have always liked dwarf rabbits, and I have thought about breeding them for profit.

[klamath]

Yeah. I know of some hippie communes that sell stuff in order to raise money. They usually will make things themselves and then just sell it in their travels. I bet that sounds a bit too anarcho communist to some here lol I don't have a problem with anarcho communism, anarcho communist societies would most definitely flourish in a stateless environment. I would join one.

It sounds good but communist systems don't work. They go against the normal human nature to look out for yourself and your own survival. What happens in a commune is a few end up doing the most work and the most live off of the few until the few quit, then no more commune. However a comunity of self surviving individual trading skills, products and such is a great setup, what is what America was susposed to be about. One guy might be a great fisherman while being a terrible farmer, while one guy might be a terrible fisherman but a great farmer so what do they do, trade fish and produce.

[Chrispy]

I would highly recommend reading some Henry Thoreau. He came to this conclusion that modern living (1850s) was over-rated and you could be happier living off the land. He gives a lot of good insight to what you need and what you don't need. I'm reading the book Waldin, Civil Disobedience right now and find it to be extremely insightful.

[klamath]

How about building a green house? This would eliminate the drought factor. Or maybe do both, have the green house(s) as insurance.

A green house keeps plants warm but it doesn't water them except for a certain amount of condensation. It would take one huge green house to grow all of your food.

[Chrispy]

Klamath i assume you live in the klamath basin correct? I just visited there last month, beautiful area.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

It sounds good but communist systems don't work. They go against the normal human nature to look out for yourself and your own survival. What happens in a commune is a few end up doing the most work and the most live off of the few until the few quit, then no more commune. However a comunity of self surviving individual trading skills, products and such is a great setup, what is what America was susposed to be about. One guy might be a great fisherman while being a terrible farmer, while one guy might be a terrible fisherman but a great farmer so what do they do, trade fish and produce.

Well, the amish are doing quite well.

[klamath]

Klamath i assume you live in the klamath basin correct? I just visited there last month, beautiful area.

Yep. That's the area:D

[Daveforliberty]

It sounds good but communist systems don't work. They go against the normal human nature to look out for yourself and your own survival. What happens in a commune is a few end up doing the most work and the most live off of the few until the few quit, then no more commune. However a comunity of self surviving individual trading skills, products and such is a great setup, what is what America was susposed to be about. One guy might be a great fisherman while being a terrible farmer, while one guy might be a terrible fisherman but a great farmer so what do they do, trade fish and produce.

Precisely why I'm talking about community and not commune. Every person owns his or her own land, and profits from the fruits of their labors.

I should add that the community can pool resources to purchase large amounts of property, and then deed it out to individuals according to their contribution.

[klamath]

Well, the amish are doing quite well.

The last time I was through the amish country of western penn. I saw a lot of family farms but not one big communal farm. They help each other out they are not totally relying on the community for their survival. They follow a very strict faith and order that the average group of people doesn't follow.

[Wendi]

I wish that I had the ability to be entirely self-sufficient. Right now, I don't. I live in the middle of the nation's fourth largest city. It drives me bonkers...

I've got some friends who are fairly well-prepared, but even they are not 100% self-sufficient. I don't know anyone who is. It seems it would be a fairly daunting process... not saying it's impossible but... ???

I always like seeing what others have to say, what ideas are out there. Wind & solar power come to mind as options but I have no idea what the cost (or expertise necessary) in setting it up would be. Then there is the issue of water.

You can live without electricity if you had to, but water is kind of a necessity...

[JosephTheLibertarian]

The last time I was through the amish country of western penn. I saw a lot of family farms but not one big communal farm. They help each other out they are not totally relying on the community for their survival. They follow a very strict faith and order that the average group of people doesn't follow.

Each family owns their own farm? Well, you know, communes aren't all set up the same way.

[Ozwest]

Being self-sufficient is a great idea, but having owned a property myself, the initial out-lay to set up your infrastructure is substantial. Most acreage owners would probably agree.

[Daveforliberty]

I see the community being responsible for power generation and possibly water (community well). Everyone shares the capital cost of installation (solar, wind) and shares maintenance costs. The individual can also have supplemental power sources on his/her own like geothermal or solar water heating. The government gets zip. I don't think there would be any need to monitor individual power usage as long as there was surplus. Again the idea is to decrease the overall cost of individuals all putting up wind turbines or installing solar cells.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

How about a stretch of land and just let people do whatever they want to do on it? Perhaps set up a mutual agreement of paying the taxes to the state: "each individual must pay his or hers own share or be expelled" Yeah, what I am proposing is legal anarchism.

[lucius]

Being self-sufficient is a great idea, but having owned a property myself, the initial out-lay to set up your infrastructure is substantial. Most acreage owners would probably agree.

I built a super-high energy efficiency state-of-the-art-low-tech using mostly surplus materials and did most of the work myself, but infrastructure is expensive--had to build two kilometers of road with seven large-culvert dry-water crossings, 130 semi-truck loads of road base, just to get access to the site. Drilling water well is expensive as well, pay extra so it is not logged in the appropriate databases: all a substantial outlay.

[Daveforliberty]

Yes, Joseph, that is another option, which my wife favors, by the way, and which I would be happy with if it was the community decision.

[Ozwest]

I see the community being responsible for power generation and possibly water (community well). Everyone shares the capital cost of installation (solar, wind) and shares maintenance costs. The individual can also have supplemental power sources on his/her own like geothermal or solar water heating. The government gets zip. I don't think there would be any need to monitor individual power usage as long as there was surplus. Again the idea is to decrease the overall cost of individuals all putting up wind turbines or installing solar cells.

This concept has always appealed to me. Share the cost burden, and importantly share the various skills of each member of the community... What has probably been the downfall of previous attempts at this is the hierarical structure. The imperfect human component.

[klamath]

It is quite possible to be totally self sustaining but you will be living at a standard of 150 years ago. My problem is I love technology, internet etc. If push comes to shove I could get rid of it and still survive though.

[Ozwest]

I built a super-high energy efficiency state-of-the-art-low-tech using mostly surplus materials and did most of the work myself, but infrastructure is expensive--had to build two kilometers of road with seven large-culvert dry-water crossings, 130 semi-truck loads of road base, just to get access to the site. Drilling water well is expensive as well, pay extra so it is not logged in the appropriate databases: all a substantial outlay.

Gotta laugh. A man's best friend on the land is HYDRAULIC POWER!

[murrayrothbard]

Why go for self-sufficiency? The division of labor is beautiful thing...

[Daveforliberty]

My idea allows you to be as high or low-tech as you want. The idea of anything shared is to bring costs down, but immediately after the cost benefits are realized, you are on your own.

[klamath]

This concept has always appealed to me. Share the cost burden, and importantly share the various skills of each member of the community... What has probably been the downfall of previous attempts at this is the hierarical structure. The imperfect human component.

I think the better word is trade skills not share skills.

[lucius]

Gotta laugh. A man's best friend on the land is HYDRAULIC POWER!

Hell yes! They will rent the largest most dangerous of machines to any monkey with a credit card!

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Yes, Joseph, that is another option, which my wife favors, by the way, and which I would be happy with if it was the community decision.

It's completely voluntary. You either agree to this contract or you are expelled lol. People won't HAVE TO sign

[murrayrothbard]

It's completely voluntary. You either agree to this contract or you are expelled lol. People won't HAVE TO sign

The only problem it is unenforcable in the present statist world. All someone has to do is run to mommy (aka the government) and it all falls apart :(

[JosephTheLibertarian]

The only problem it is unenforcable in the present statist world. All someone has to do is run to mommy (aka the government) and it all falls apart :(

It's completely enforceable. You have signed a contractual agreement and I'm sure other signees will be happy to enforce it. You just call the police and evict him. Easy. Key words of my other post: LEGAL ANARCHISM. If it were true anarchism, we wouldn't need to pay any involuntary taxes.

[klamath]

I don't think there would be any need to monitor individual power usage as long as there was surplus. .

Believe me you will have power wars. My hydro plant supplies two houses and an excess of heavy appliances can cause brownouts and irratations.:D
The first time one of your members trys to heat a 10,000sq. ft green house with the electric power:mad::mad:

[klamath]

Gotta laugh. A man's best friend on the land is HYDRAULIC POWER!

Gotta love hydraulics!

[murrayrothbard]

It's completely enforceable. You have signed a contractual agreement and I'm sure other signees will be happy to enforce it. You just call the police and evict him. Easy. Key words of my other post: LEGAL ANARCHISM. If it were true anarchism, we wouldn't need to pay any involuntary taxes.


It all depends on what your contract is. There are all sorts of things the state can say to invalidate it. Maybe you are 'violating' someone's 'civil rights' or something.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm all for it. I just think the state would be all over it.

[Daveforliberty]

Believe me you will have power wars. My hydro plant supplies two houses and an excess of heavy appliances can cause brownouts and irratations.:D
The first time one of your members trys to heat a 10,000sq. ft green house with the electric power:mad::mad:

First off, I love the discussion. I never want to let obstacles stop the conversation. Rather, I'd like to keep the same goal in mind and come up with creative ways to overcome the obstacles. Okay, so maybe monitoring individual use, with a "reasonable cap" on what an individual can consume before he has to go to personal supplementation? This way no one person can abuse the investment of others.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

It all depends on what your contract is. There are all sorts of things the state can say to invalidate it. Maybe you are 'violating' someone's 'civil rights' or something.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm all for it. I just think the state would be all over it.

That's what lawyers are for. The more people there are, the less we all pay... I'd really like to move to Antarctica or some deserted island though, countries really get in the way of projects like this.

[Ozwest]

Gotta love hydraulics!

One good piece of machinery can do the work of ten men. No complaining, and no sick days off from work...

[Ozwest]

That's what lawyers are for. The more people there are, the less we all pay... I'd really like to move to Antarctica or some deserted island though, countries really get in the way of projects like this.

Lawyers. Uggghh!

[RP4ME]

I'd love to find some like-minded Ron Paulers to form a community (not a commune) in South Dakota. I'm currently in Washington State. Thinking everyone pools their resources to buy lots of property, but each owns their own section. Each family be as connected or disconnected from the world as they want to be. We help each other by sharing our skills and maybe farming together, etc.

we are looking at SD too Black hills area and Montana and WY....i have thought about teh exact same thing about pooling resorces.

[Daveforliberty]

I chose SD for a number of reasons. One is that, like Washington, there is no income tax. Sales tax is 4% I think, and property taxes are moderate.

I've taken a few trips there and have selected the Spearfish area as my target. It's a lovely little town, very friendly and American-feeling. Easy access to the Black Hills and the Rapid City airport, which is important for me. Little league for my grandson. My wife is also part native American and wants to do something to help America's poorest people, the Lakota Sioux. Pine Ridge is about an hour away.

Oh yeah, and while I wait to get established, I can rent a nice 3-bedroom house for under $850 per month.

[CurtisLow]

The last time I was through the amish country of western penn. I saw a lot of family farms but not one big communal farm. They help each other out they are not totally relying on the community for their survival. They follow a very strict faith and order that the average group of people doesn't follow.

I live in western Pa. Just in the last two years the Amish have been selling off there small lots, acres and buying big chunks of land to live on as a group 200 to 300 acres.

The big thing about western Pa is if you buy your land with gas rights and have a natural gas well on it you can run almost everything you need off of it. Heat your home, water and you can use it to run a generator too. I almost bought 80 acres with 800,000 qf of free gas per year. for almost $1000 an acre.

I have really been thinking hard about being self sufficient but I the same time I thought about buying an apartment building for income... I know if the shit should hit the fan a apartment building is not a good choice. But if I buy a farm I won't have a good income. I'm really torn between the two... I wanted to travel the world from the income from the apt building before I get too old.


:confused:

[RP4ME]

I hear ya its quite a shift in my own personal thinking to focus on Survival.....and its not cheap either - but i look at what going on whenI think its all just my imagination and I think we are doing teh right thing. my only worry is will we be able to get setlled fats enough! We have to sell property now to do tht...Much of our $$ is in Property.....urban mostly...

Anyway I like thsi thread and I look forwrd to reading all teh links that have been posted. Keep it up!

[klamath]

I live in western Pa. Just in the last two years the Amish have been selling off there small lots, acres and buying big chunks of land to live on as a group 200 to 300 acres.

The big thing about western Pa is if you buy your land with gas rights and have a natural gas well on it you can run almost everything you need off of it. Heat your home, water and you can use it to run a generator too. I almost bought 80 acres with 800,000 qf of free gas per year. for almost $1000 an acre.

I have really been thinking hard about being self sufficient but I the same time I thought about buying an apartment building for income... I know if the shit should hit the fan a apartment building is not a good choice. But if I buy a farm I won't have a good income. I'm really torn between the two... I wanted to travel the world from the income from the apt building before I get too old.


:confused:

Yeaw I hear you. We have a small rental unit of small houses in a nearby town. We own it out right so if there is a economic down turn all I have to ask from my tenets is enought rent to cover the taxes and fees. I think peoples best bet is to try and eliminate all their personal debt. Get yourself situatated so you don't lose everthing if there is a down turn in the economy. I keep myself out of debt and only get what I can afford. There is a series of books call the Tightwad Gazette. It is a great series of books for people that want to learn to save money no matter whether you are in the city or country.
I did most of my world travels in the National Guard thought not to places I necessarily would have wanted to go, Bosnia Iraq, etc.:D

[MsDoodahs]

We have talked about expatriating, but honestly, the idea of moving to a community comprised of liberty minded folks holds a lot of appeal.

Book recommendation: Carla Emery's "Encyclopedia of Country Living"

:)

[thompsonisland]

I love the idea of buying a large chunk of land with other people, bring in the lawyers before settlement, carve it up and make your community. We have talked about it with friends many times. Problem is, we can't live without the sea. Maine is the most highly taxed state in the country, by some measures, and it is outrageous. Nonetheless, we plan to be as self-sufficient as we can up in Midcoast, and hopefully get other families on board. We might buy a smaller lot of oceanfront and a larger inland lot for wood, water, orchard, etc.

I think we probably won't go completely off the grid, though. I don't like those battery banks. We were thinking about just running the meter backwards, but having the infrastructure so that if we needed to get the batteries and go off, we could.

[alicegardener]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, I really don't. We have lived in the country for 30 years and have been fighting for our freedom from an orchestrated attempt to take over property rights in the form of a grand overarching land use plan. It masquarades as a bottom -up, grass roots movement but the half-truths and the covert moneyed influences are as dirty as the worse political campaign. It is bad enough to be vulnerable to having your land foreit to property taxes, just wait until these Plans sneak past the unsuspecting public who just want to protect the environment and be good citizens. In our plan, we would not be allowed to build on 90% of our land either because of the slope or because of proximity to a waterway. Forget hydro-electric, the Dept. of Natural Resources controls that 100% Our neighbor was denied a permit for building a little pond for fish. Another person we don't know personally was forced to tear down his brand new house. If we let them, the coalition of government and big business will make Jefferson's yeoman farmer extinct very soon. Now, did you know, they want us to pay to register every farm animal, every cow, every chicken. And each registration is going to cost a fee. The Amish are having a fit about it. I live in SW Wisconsin where land is fertile, deer plentiful, and the community supportive (lots of Amish, back-to-the-landers, Waldorf schools etc. ) so if its this bad here, I hate to think what other places are like. Google "Comprehensive Planning" if you want a scarey Halloween story.

[constituent]

^exactly what is happening in South Texas right now. It is tragic really.

[ItsTime]

Free state project :D


I'd love to find some like-minded Ron Paulers to form a community (not a commune) in South Dakota. I'm currently in Washington State. Thinking everyone pools their resources to buy lots of property, but each owns their own section. Each family be as connected or disconnected from the world as they want to be. We help each other by sharing our skills and maybe farming together, etc.

[klamath]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, I really don't. We have lived in the country for 30 years and have been fighting for our freedom from an orchestrated attempt to take over property rights in the form of a grand overarching land use plan. It masquarades as a bottom -up, grass roots movement but the half-truths and the covert moneyed influences are as dirty as the worse political campaign. It is bad enough to be vulnerable to having your land foreit to property taxes, just wait until these Plans sneak past the unsuspecting public who just want to protect the environment and be good citizens. In our plan, we would not be allowed to build on 90% of our land either because of the slope or because of proximity to a waterway. Forget hydro-electric, the Dept. of Natural Resources controls that 100% Our neighbor was denied a permit for building a little pond for fish. Another person we don't know personally was forced to tear down his brand new house. If we let them, the coalition of government and big business will make Jefferson's yeoman farmer extinct very soon. Now, did you know, they want us to pay to register every farm animal, every cow, every chicken. And each registration is going to cost a fee. The Amish are having a fit about it. I live in SW Wisconsin where land is fertile, deer plentiful, and the community supportive (lots of Amish, back-to-the-landers, Waldorf schools etc. ) so if its this bad here, I hate to think what other places are like. Google "Comprehensive Planning" if you want a scarey Halloween story.

You are right on unfortunately. You can run but you can never really hide from the long arms of the state and federal government.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

The only way to roll back this crap is to either be one hell of an organizer, one hell of an orator or get into politics.

[MsDoodahs]

Let's buy us an island. :D

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Let's buy us an island. :D

You can. But you will still be under the jurisdiction of a country. You can even rent an island if you wanted to.

[klamath]

Let's buy us an island. :D

I don't know we would probably kill each other off fighting over whether to donate our labor, now, the 5th or the 11th.:D Sorry I couldn't help it.:p

[Buffalo Bruce]

Alicegardiner (post # 83) is right about rural planning scams. Agenda 21 = smart growth = comprehensive land use planning. Before you move, do a little research about planning at the township, county, and state level. These plans do a lot of preserving, protecting and sustaining. Generally the plans preserve and protect land from its owner. Sustainability has to do with sustaining professional planners and local bureaucrats. Lenin could have had an easier time of it if he had put a similar smiley face on his land reform programs. Plans have a life of their own. The stakeholders running them often are not accountable to voters. Austrian economist F. Hayek noted that, "The more government plans, the harder it is for individuals to plan."

Distributing RP material in my rural area, I occasionally find someone who would like to display a RP yard sign but is uncomforable because it might upset government agents responsible for distributing farm payments.

[Derek Johnson]

We raise chickens, milk goats, small gardening/greenhousing, and I'm working on producing auto and home power on weekends. We will get there eventually.

[RP4ME]

How are you producing auto and home power please explin all teh details

[fj45lvr]

Distributing RP material in my rural area, I occasionally find someone who would like to display a RP yard sign but is uncomforable because it might upset government agents responsible for distributing farm payments.

good place for the quote attributed to Jefferson "When the people fear their government, there IS TYRANNY; when the government fears the people; there is LIBERTY"

In your case there I guess tyranny is the prevailing force.

The agenda 21 "sustainable development" is pure bullshit based on "hatred of man".....funny how "man" is never viewed as an "animal" by these GREEN scum. They have to try to control everyone else (and of course we know that their ideology is totally incompatible with private property and Liberty).... the idea that "natural" conditions ONLY should prevail over the lands is a little fantasy that creeps into these folks minds (normally city folks or people that carry around guilt).

My family has grown up as "hillbillys" out in the boonies and these people know more about nature, respect it dearly and yet they continue to earn their living off of natural resource (true renewable resources). It is absolutely amazing how brainwashed and naive some people are to reality and the way things really work.

I do firmly believe that these hard core greens are more of a security threat than islamists will ever be....they want the worlds population to be under 1 billion!!!

[constituent]

.

I do firmly believe that these hard core greens are more of a security threat than islamists will ever be....they want the worlds population to be under 1 billion!!!

You did it!!!!!!!

fj45lvr, you've won the battle. All we have to do now is manufacture some green grassroots into a mass suicide save the earth drive/cult.

This should not be a problem. I'm not a politician, but have been called a powerful orator before....


hmmmmm, maybe we should give this a shot?

[Wendi]

The problem with contractual self-sufficient communities is that the gov't doesn't like them. And if the gov't doesn't like you, they will find a way to destroy you.

The gov't is currently investigating (read harassing) the New Hampshire Free State Project because some of their members dared to voice support for Ed & Elaine Brown.

And anyone who gets disgruntled and leaves, can run to the gov't with all kinds of allegations - even blatantly false ones - and next thing you know you'll have the feds at your door.

[constituent]

I think the issues is going to be actually (gasp, i know i hate them too) fencing areas and incorporating, as in create
a shelter corporation that produces wtfever contained w/in your land space.

that's one thing about our fascist state, the corporations can't friggin' be touched...

get a couple of lawyers to keep them off the land, stall any court actions, it can be done
w/ ease if the money is there.

[MsDoodahs]

I don't know we would probably kill each other off fighting over whether to donate our labor, now, the 5th or the 11th.:D Sorry I couldn't help it.:p

Cracked me up! TOO FUNNY!

[JosephTheLibertarian]

The problem with contractual self-sufficient communities is that the gov't doesn't like them. And if the gov't doesn't like you, they will find a way to destroy you.

The gov't is currently investigating (read harassing) the New Hampshire Free State Project because some of their members dared to voice support for Ed & Elaine Brown.

And anyone who gets disgruntled and leaves, can run to the gov't with all kinds of allegations - even blatantly false ones - and next thing you know you'll have the feds at your door.

Oh yeah? Fuck the feds. God damn pig mother fuckers! They can investigate me, I'll tell them to suck my cock and laugh in their faces. See how they like that. I hope we reach a depression so that they can go bankrupt

[Meatwasp]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, I really don't. We have lived in the country for 30 years and have been fighting for our freedom from an orchestrated attempt to take over property rights in the form of a grand overarching land use plan. It masquarades as a bottom -up, grass roots movement but the half-truths and the covert moneyed influences are as dirty as the worse political campaign. It is bad enough to be vulnerable to having your land foreit to property taxes, just wait until these Plans sneak past the unsuspecting public who just want to protect the environment and be good citizens. In our plan, we would not be allowed to build on 90% of our land either because of the slope or because of proximity to a waterway. Forget hydro-electric, the Dept. of Natural Resources controls that 100% Our neighbor was denied a permit for building a little pond for fish. Another person we don't know personally was forced to tear down his brand new house. If we let them, the coalition of government and big business will make Jefferson's yeoman farmer extinct very soon. Now, did you know, they want us to pay to register every farm animal, every cow, every chicken. And each registration is going to cost a fee. The Amish are having a fit about it. I live in SW Wisconsin where land is fertile, deer plentiful, and the community supportive (lots of Amish, back-to-the-landers, Waldorf schools etc. ) so if its this bad here, I hate to think what other places are like. Google "Comprehensive Planning" if you want a scarey Halloween story.
Lets pray Hillary doesn't get it as under Clinton this all started. We have friends in SD fighting Wet land regulations

[Daveforliberty]

The problem with contractual self-sufficient communities is that the gov't doesn't like them. And if the gov't doesn't like you, they will find a way to destroy you...

...And anyone who gets disgruntled and leaves, can run to the gov't with all kinds of allegations - even blatantly false ones - and next thing you know you'll have the feds at your door.

That's why I only want to be a group only when it comes to land purchase (immediatelyl carving it up into private ownership by individuals) and perhaps power and water generation.

I want to eliminate, as much as possible, the opportunity for disputes by having everyone be truly free in owning their own property. The real strength of the community will not be in contractual ties. It will be in having like-minded individuals at your borders who believe in liberty, distrust the government and are watching your back.

I'm not that familiar with the Free State Project's infrastructure. Can anyone enlighten? If it's centralized in some way, I can see how the government could be a threat. If it's truly decentralized, how can the government threaten it, since it doesn't really exist?

[constituent]

Ok, so here is this think i've been thinking.

You know how in some areas childrens' play
equipment is used to pump water?

Why could the same equipment not be converted
into equipment that generates electricity?

This would not be a magic bullet (which is one of the
big sorta mental problems the broader society has
w/ accepting alternate sources of energy), however
a combination of this sort of thing with any number
of other sources could be beneficial, i suppose.

Were one trying to build communities, it is reasonable
to assume that there would be children occupying these
communities in time if not right away.

If a park were built and space designated within the community
they could use that space as a central location for solar and wind
generation as well, this in addition to whatever individual
households generate on their own.

What are the pitfalls of this sort of idea?

...beside the obvious recess ban to enforce child
labor laws.

[klamath]

Ok, so here is this think i've been thinking.

You know how in some areas childrens' play
equipment is used to pump water?

Why could the same equipment not be converted
into equipment that generates electricity?

This would not be a magic bullet (which is one of the
big sorta mental problems the broader society has
w/ accepting alternate sources of energy), however
a combination of this sort of thing with any number
of other sources could be beneficial, i suppose.

Were one trying to build communities, it is reasonable
to assume that there would be children occupying these
communities in time if not right away.

If a park were built and space designated within the community
they could use that space as a central location for solar and wind
generation as well, this in addition to whatever individual
households generate on their own.

What are the pitfalls of this sort of idea?

...beside the obvious recess ban to enforce child
labor laws.

Here are some rough but highly optimistic figures.

The adult human body puts out about 1/3 hp peak in high energy aerobics. A child would put out an average power of 1/10th horsepower. 1/10 HP is about 70 watts. 1000 kids playing for an hour would be 70,000 watt/hours. Multiply that by .5 for your power conversion efficency and you have 35,000 watt hours. Your average electric stove burner takes about 2,000 watts so you could run about 17.5 hours on that burner.

[constituent]

bummer. but what other factors exist in this situation? b/c when a child swings, there
are all sorts of factors in play that make it easier for the child to generate motion through
their activities, then it is an issue of harnessing that motion...

you know levers and all
that good stuff.

could proper design, and use
of simple mechanisms make
an appreciable amount of difference?

math and science weren't ever my thing (until maybe
a couple of years ago) so i'm trying to catch up from
pretty much zero.