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View Full Version : Are unions and labor laws always bad?




eugenekop
12-08-2010, 02:38 PM
In the 19th century most of the factories in western countries have made their employees work for 12 hours a day and more. After a few years of such exhausting work many people had become ill, but then the factories just replaced them with new workers. These short-sighted policies I believe have not only decreased the total economic output but also made a lot of people ill and exhausted.

Although I am not an expert on that period, but it seems to me that unionizing and labor laws have lead to a better economy and well being overall. So despite the fact that unions and labor laws are usually considered anti-Libertarian, I am not convinced it is always the case.

What do you think?

Heimdallr
12-08-2010, 02:44 PM
Well, labor laws are generally unneccessary in a free market, and there's nothing wrong with unions. The problem is when the unions get their tentacles in the government and end up wielding huge power.

jmdrake
12-08-2010, 02:47 PM
Unions = freedom of association. Nothing wrong with that.

Labor laws = (typically) unconstitutional meddling in private business. I say "typically" because if the private business is truly engaged in interstate commerce or foreign commerce the federal government arguably has a right to regulate. But note, making widgets in Tennessee that might be sold to other states is not the original definition of interstate commerce.

As far as the economy goes...sure we have much better working conditions at U.S. factories....right before they go overseas to China where the labor unions are controlled by the government. :rolleyes: So there's only an illusion of better working conditions.

Vessol
12-08-2010, 02:48 PM
Well, labor laws are generally unneccessary in a free market, and there's nothing wrong with unions. The problem is when the unions get their tentacles in the government and end up wielding huge power.

This. I am not against unions, unless they depend on the government for violence or threat of violence to get what they want. THen they are nothing more than criminals.

Acala
12-08-2010, 02:55 PM
In the 19th century most of the factories in western countries have made their employees work for 12 hours a day and more. After a few years of such exhausting work many people had become ill, but then the factories just replaced them with new workers. These short-sighted policies I believe have not only decreased the total economic output but also made a lot of people ill and exhausted.

Although I am not an expert on that period, but it seems to me that unionizing and labor laws have lead to a better economy and well being overall. So despite the fact that unions and labor laws are usually considered anti-Libertarian, I am not convinced it is always the case.

What do you think?

This is not accurate. This is revisionist history. The fact is that people swarmed into the cities to work in factories because the pay was higher and the work EASIER than work on the farms from which they came.

That being said, as long as labor unions do not use force or special government privileges, they are fine.

fisharmor
12-08-2010, 03:13 PM
This is not accurate. This is revisionist history. The fact is that people swarmed into the cities to work in factories because the pay was higher and the work EASIER than work on the farms from which they came.

That being said, as long as labor unions do not use force or special government privileges, they are fine.

This.
For every case of factories that abused their workers that you can come up with, I can come up with a cop who has unjustly killed or beaten someone. Yet nobody feels like we need a bunch of laws to keep the cop in check.
It's not a perfect analogy because we need the factories and don't need the cops, but hopefully you can see how completely statism corrupts your opinions. Most of us defend every single cop despite evidence that we shouldn't, and jump all over the factory owners, when conditions were not the same across the board.

Also, much better post this time, Eugene.

Galileo Galilei
12-08-2010, 03:28 PM
Unions in the private sector are good. They are a voluntary organization of people, just like a corporation. The NBA basketball union has been especially effective in raising wages for workers.

Elwar
12-08-2010, 03:30 PM
Should there be laws to keep people's wages down and their work hours long?

If there were such laws would you be in favor of government meddling in the free market?

Jordan
12-08-2010, 03:34 PM
Unions by their own free standing and with no extra powers from government are, in my opinion, generally good.

If unions weren't granted favors by government, I don't think they'd be so disliked. Sure, dangerous or unhealthy working conditions aren't good, and workers do have the right to organize and assemble. That's reasonable.

What isn't reasonable is using your new found powers to demand $40 an hour for what you could find lines of people to do for $15, even $10 an hour. Cough, UAW, cough.

oyarde
12-08-2010, 03:48 PM
They lead to inflated prices / wages and ineffeciency and large corrupt organizations that spend the peoples money on evil , socialistic things .

crazyfacedjenkins
12-08-2010, 03:54 PM
They lead to inflated prices / wages and ineffeciency and large corrupt organizations that spend the peoples money on evil , socialistic things .

Bull shit. In earlier times when they were voluntary, they helped during recessions by negotiating to uniformly bring down wages so everyone would stay employed. Then when unemployment was created, if fucked everything up.

It's a 1st amendment right-- freedom of assembly. So long as it's voluntary, how could you be against that?

vita3
12-08-2010, 03:58 PM
You can be trained thru a union

ChaosControl
12-08-2010, 03:59 PM
Unions in a free market are a good thing.
They are a way to make labor laws unnecessary.

eugenekop
12-08-2010, 04:01 PM
But can unions be formed and really be active if they are not supported by the government? It is very difficult to form a union because the management is keen on not allowing this to happen.

Acala
12-08-2010, 04:04 PM
But can unions be formed and really be active if they are not supported by the government? .

If they can't then they go away. And life goes on. They certainly aren't NECESSARY in any way.

ItsTime
12-08-2010, 04:07 PM
As far as the economy goes...sure we have much better working conditions at U.S. factories....right before they go overseas to China where the labor unions are controlled by the government. :rolleyes: So there's only an illusion of better working conditions.

I never thought of it that way before. Makes sense.

awake
12-08-2010, 04:09 PM
The most difficult problem when government spoils freely forming societal movements is to identify the corrupt influences from the good aspects inherent in voluntary association.

Volunteer Unions, absent preferential laws and legislation, are the good kind, so as long as they don't use force or threat to coerce others, it's all good. This means striking becomes voluntary resignation, and "scabs" are free agents willing to take the empty positions under no threat. As well, minimum wage should be dissolved outright. But people tend to see the whole idea as corrupt instead of separating the good from the bad and singling out the driving reasons behind the corrupt aspects. It really is an honest investigation into causation, one does not discard the body to cure a treatable disease.

Special interests get special laws - this is the root.

WilliamShrugged
12-08-2010, 04:14 PM
Not to change the subject, but what about anti-trust laws?

awake
12-08-2010, 04:21 PM
Not to change the subject, but what about anti-trust laws?

Price is to high you go to jail, price is to low you go to jail, price is the same? yup.. you go to jail. It is a racket of ignoramuses wielding arbitrary excesses of power used in the most corrupt and contradictory manner.

A monopolist can not claim to be the great savior from monopoly.

Back on topic. Current unions, are at best "sand in the gears".

oyarde
12-08-2010, 04:22 PM
Bull shit. In earlier times when they were voluntary, they helped during recessions by negotiating to uniformly bring down wages so everyone would stay employed. Then when unemployment was created, if fucked everything up.

It's a 1st amendment right-- freedom of assembly. So long as it's voluntary, how could you be against that?

I am not against others participating . I have not and will not . My description may not please you , but it is my opinion of what I have seen in auto industry , teachers unions , service employee etc. In fact it is so corrupt at the top , I consider it the most powerful arm of the democratic socialist party .