Where do you stand on fracking?

[TomtheTinker]

YouTube - A Fracking joke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWMsHW4SMCY&feature=recentlik)

I'm absolutely not the government intervention or regulation type of guy. But I believe once you start negatively interfering with peoples private property and destroying drinking water..Its one of governments legit functions to protect life and liberty through the court system.

I don't have all the facts about this fracking stuff but it really doesn't seem safe and does seem to affect peoples private property..

What do you think?

[tremendoustie]

If they pollute their neighbor's property, they owe them compensation.

[RideTheDirt]

If they pollute their neighbor's property, they owe them compensation.
This

[Yieu]

The solution isn't more government regulation, it is to remove the government regulation which is preventing these property owners from suing the companies which are polluting their water.


If they pollute their neighbor's property, they owe them compensation.

Not only compensation in monetary form, but also compensation by cleaning up the pollution and being barred from further practicing whatever caused the pollution in the first place, through the court system.

[TomtheTinker]

The solution isn't more government regulation, it is to remove the government regulation which is preventing these property owners from suing the companies which are polluting their water.

What government regulation prevents individuals from suing??

[Yieu]

What government regulation prevents individuals from suing??

The video highlights that due to "Cheney's influence", there was a provision which exempts the fracking companies.

[dean.engelhardt]

YouTube - A Fracking joke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWMsHW4SMCY&feature=recentlik)

I'm absolutely not the government intervention or regulation type of guy. But I believe once you start negatively interfering with peoples private property and destroying drinking water..Its one of governments legit functions to protect life and liberty through the court system.

I don't have all the facts about this fracking stuff but it really doesn't seem safe and does seem to affect peoples private property..

What do you think?

I agree with your assessment. There are questions, that should be easily answered, but are not. For instatnce, we've all seen the tap water being set on fire. This could be from the fracking fluid or methane released from the drilling, or a combination of both. I imagine a good chemist give us good data, but I have not seen any. I wonder why?

The fracking debate is becoming to political, much like climate change. If we could get the politics out of it and examine it scientifiically, we would get better answers. If we had good data concerning risk to ground water, I could be in favor of some type of government regulation to protect property rights.

[TomtheTinker]

The video highlights that due to "Cheney's influence", there was a provision which exempts the fracking companies.

Got you..I don't see how certain people can be exempt from justice..I guess that just my sense talking..I forget government doesn't operate that way.

[tremendoustie]

What government regulation prevents individuals from suing??

Actually, they did pass a lot of awful laws during the industrial revolution that protected polluters from being held accountable by their victims.

So now, instead of basing environmental protection on liability, as we should, we've got massive (and corrupt) government regulations.

[tremendoustie]

Not only compensation in monetary form, but also compensation by cleaning up the pollution and being barred from further practicing whatever caused the pollution in the first place, through the court system.

Well, if that's what the harmed owner wants. They could have a larger monetary reward, or a slightly smaller one plus cleanup. If they wanted to reach an agreement with the polluter to continue to allow them to operate, they could.

[hazek]

But I believe once you start negatively interfering with peoples private property and destroying drinking water..Its one of governments legit functions to protect life and liberty through the court system.

Wrong. The government has no legit function of protecting life and liberty. The constitution clearly says that it cannot impose on life or personal liberty which is something completely different.

But what it has to do is uphold contracts in courts, so if you own a contract for a land and someone is violating that contract, courts should punish them.

[kahless]

"fracking" is an explective used in Caprica and Battlestar Gallactica. I thought this was a sci-fi thead. :D

[TomtheTinker]

Wrong. The government has no legit function of protecting life and liberty. The constitution clearly says that it cannot impose on life or personal liberty which is something completely different.

But what it has to do is uphold contracts in courts, so if you own a contract for a land and someone is violating that contract, courts should punish them.

That's pretty much what I meant. One individual has no right to destroy another persons property.

[ronpaulhawaii]

What government regulation prevents individuals from suing??

Specifically, the Halliburton Exemption


The Halliburton exemption in the 2005 Energy Bill allows the drilling companies to keep secret (IP) the chemicals used in the process, which drastically reduces both the affected land-owners ability to sue for damages and the doctors to treat the sick.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2799223

[hazek]

That's pretty much what I meant. One individual has no right to destroy another persons property.

Well choose your words more carefully then.


A lot of the shit that's happening today is possible solely because people misunderstand what government is or isn't allowed and what it is or isn't suppose to do because someone (either teacher, or official, or reporter, or writer) used the wrong words to describe it.

[SneakyFrenchSpy]

Does anyone know if the good doctor has ever been on record about this issue? After seeing Gasland recently, I've become more interested in the subject and it'd be great if Ron Paul could be the first of the candidates to bring the issue to the fore. I think we could educate people about property rights while scoring points on the populist level.

Here is Stossel's take on all this by the way:

http://reason.com/archives/2011/05/19/plentiful-fuel (http://reason.com/archives/2011/05/19/plentiful-fuel)

[A Son of Liberty]

Gasland is a hyperbolic mess. I live in "gasland" - not the one depicted in the film, but a region which has been heavily drilled. There are no barren wastelands nor flammable kitchen sinks. I'm talking about an entire county, which has been drilled hundreds of times.

This whole issue comes down four-square to property rights. A property owner has every legitimate moral right to negotiate terms with a drilling firm. A smart one will demand addenda which requires equal or more greater compensation for any unanticipated consequences as a result of drilling; and if the driller does not like it, he can move to the next piece of property. And if on the next piece of property he damages the drinking water or any other natural resource as a consequence of his operation on neighboring properties, then he should be held liable to equal if not greater compensation.

Only government or stupidity can prevent this free exchange from occurring.

[osan]

If they pollute their neighbor's property, they owe them compensation.

Jesus.... compensation? You think money will make up for a ruined water system?

Not all losses can be measured in monetary terms.

[osan]

Well choose your words more carefully then.


A lot of the shit that's happening today is possible solely because people misunderstand what government is or isn't allowed and what it is or isn't suppose to do because someone (either teacher, or official, or reporter, or writer) used the wrong words to describe it.

Well stated. Language is the single most important thing that we learn and do. If our language is wrong, our thoughts follow suit.

It amazes me how people take language for granted, treating is so casually. Is it any wonder the world is up to its eyes in shit?

[A Son of Liberty]

Jesus.... compensation? You think money will make up for a ruined water system?

Not all losses can be measured in monetary terms.

Well, yeah. As long as the cost of replacing the damaged water over the lifetime of the property is considered.

Everything but love can be measured in monetary terms.

[isrow]

What government regulation prevents individuals from suing??

Cheney pushed very hard to get fracking removed from the regulations and liability in the Clean Water Act, it's called the Cheney exception. Also it takes place on the peoples' land managed by the Bureau of Land Management. Additionally, it often comes down to permitting and getting exemptions from the government which is a highly political process. I am getting concerned with huge environmental liabilities some corporations are leaving us with, gulf oil spill, fukashima, and oil toxic wastes.

[A Son of Liberty]

Cheney pushed very hard to get fracking removed from the regulations and liability in the Clean Water Act, it's called the Cheney exception. Also it takes place on the peoples' land managed by the Bureau of Land Management. Additionally, it often comes down to permitting and getting exemptions from the government which is a highly political process. I am getting concerned with huge environmental liabilities some corporations are leaving us with, gulf oil spill, fukashima, and oil toxic wastes.


Cheney pushed very hard to get fracking removed from the regulations and liability in the Clean Water Act, it's called the Cheney exception. Also it takes place on the peoples' land managed by the Bureau of Land Management. Additionally, it often comes down to permitting and getting exemptions from the government which is a highly political process. I am getting concerned with huge environmental liabilities some GOVERNMENT SPONSORED ENTITIES are leaving us with, gulf oil spill, fukashima, and oil toxic wastes.

Fixed your post.

Note - this site needs a /strikethrough option. It would allow us to make less ham-fisted and more witty comments. Thank you. ;)

[Brian4Liberty]

Fixed your post.

Note - this site needs has a /strikethrough option.

You need to "Go Advanced". ;)

[angelatc]

YouTube - A Fracking joke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWMsHW4SMCY&feature=recentlik)

I'm absolutely not the government intervention or regulation type of guy. But I believe once you start negatively interfering with peoples private property and destroying drinking water..Its one of governments legit functions to protect life and liberty through the court system.

I don't have all the facts about this fracking stuff but it really doesn't seem safe and does seem to affect peoples private property..

What do you think?

The people that made the movie already admitted they intentionally omitted material to slant the message. Let the states decide.

Here's an article from the WSJ: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303936704576398462932810874.html Even if the process is imperfect, it won't get better if it is banned.


EPA administrator Lisa Jackson, a determined enemy of fossil fuels, recently told Congress that there have been no "proven cases where the fracking process itself has affected water."

[A Son of Liberty]

You need to "Go Advanced". ;)

Oh yeah!? I'm not stoopid, ya know...

http://www.expulsion-creations.com/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

[jbuttell]

Jesus.... compensation? You think money will make up for a ruined water system?

Not all losses can be measured in monetary terms.

I agree. I suspect current regulation limits the liability of these drillers. Without such artificial 'regulations' in place to comfort drillers, the risk/reward may not be attractive enough for them to warrant drilling in the area without more careful consideration of the consequences.

[thequietkid10]

question probably a stupid one, a lot of talk here about property rights and the like, what if you aren't the property owner. What if your the neighbor to the guy who wrote a contract with the frackers, then can you still sue for property damage? Because it's not the government infringing on your property and it's not you who wrote the contract.