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aravoth
12-01-2010, 12:38 AM
http://objectsinmotion.org/man-gets-evicted-for-living-simple/

I'd be willing to bet that if given the chance, just about everyone on this forum would jump at the chance to live off the grid on 35+ acres, no matter if it was simple living, or not.

There goes that idea...

Maybe we can generate some outcry and help this old man out? I can't think of a better way I would like to spend my last years than to just be at peace with my surroundings, with a couple of 4 legged companions nearby.

EDIT : Here are some phone numbers for you to call and voice your opinion..

Assessor, County (765) 641-9401 Cheryl Heath
Circuit Court (765) 641-9436 Judge Pyle
Clerk (765) 641-9443 Ludy Watkins
Commissioners (765) 641-9470 Linda Smith
Community Justice Center (765) 649-7341 Ann Roberts
County Attorney (765) 641-9474 Gerald Shine
Court Administration (765) 641-9503 James Hunter
Prosecuting Attorney (765) 641-9585 Thomas Broderick Jr
Purdue Extension (765) 641-9514 Gary Simmons
Sheriff's Department (765) 646-9290 Ron Richardson
Surveyor (765) 641-9638 Patrick Manship

Anti Federalist
12-01-2010, 12:49 AM
http://objectsinmotion.org/man-gets-evicted-for-living-simple/

I'd be willing to bet that if given the chance, just about everyone on this forum would jump at the chance to live off the grid on 35+ acres, not matter if it was simple living, or not.

There goes that idea...

Maybe we can generate some outcry and help this old man out? I can't think of a better way I would like to spend my last years than to just be at peace with my surroundings, with a couple of 4 legged companions nearby.

Peace and being left alone?

Not permitted, mundane.

angelatc
12-01-2010, 01:21 AM
I remember a similiar story in St Petersburg. The family was living in a trailer, with no running water or electricity, but they were clean and fed. The kids bathed at their father's house, and I forget what they had arranged for a toilet, but it was something clean and legal.

So social services came to get the kids. They ran away, and agreed to enter foster care only if the reporter would write about the situation.

They were in school, getting good grades, not in any trouble...it was sickening to think of what they might have been exposed to in foster care.

Anti Federalist
12-01-2010, 01:23 AM
I remember a similiar story in St Petersburg. The family was living in a trailer, with no running water or electricity, but they were clean and fed. The kids bathed at their father's house, and I forget what they had arranged for a toilet, but it was something clean and legal.

So social services came to get the kids. They ran away, and agreed to enter foster care only if the reporter would write about the situation.

They were in school, getting good grades, not in any trouble...it was sickening to think of what they might have been exposed to in foster care.

As more and more people lose their homes and jobs, the state is right there to leap on them and make sure they are fully crushed.

amy31416
12-01-2010, 06:32 AM
It's happening with relative frequency...the public utilities commission got the police involved in this case, and the guy's actually gone to jail--3 times. It's fucking outrageous:

http://www.off-grid.net/2008/08/20/william-williams-fighting-fund/


William Williams fighting fund
by NICK ROSEN on AUGUST 20, 2008 - 2 Comments in EVENTS

http://www.off-grid.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/william-williams-153x188.jpg

Williams: off-grid hero This web site is organising donations to help pay lawyers for a Pittsburgh man who uses no public utilities — and has served three stints in the county jail because of his battles. Now he faces more legal wrangling for refusing to tap into the local sewage system.

Off-Grid was the first to report on William Williams, 78, of Cecil, back in 2006. Now Williams is again pressing ahead with his long- held doctrine that he, not public utilities or authorities, dictates what happens on his property. He describes utility companies and authorities as “troublemakers,” “bullies” and “yo-yos with ***** ideas” about encroaching on people’s lives.

Based on that philosophy, he’s refused to tap into the sewage system that the Midway Sanitary Authority operates on Reissing Road.

“I don’t like to see big outfits like this giving all this [hassle] to the people,” Mr. Williams said. “These companies are trying to barge in on everybody.”

The Washington County Sewage Council sent him a certified letter June 26 stating he had 45 days to tap into the sewage line. The council said it will inspect his septic system to see if it’s malfunctioning, which would be grounds to force him to tap into the public system.

But Thomas F. Wright of the council said if a visual inspection reveals no leaks, that tactic won’t work. Then Cecil would have to step in to enforce its ordinance requiring homeowners to tap into the public sewage system.

He said Mr. Williams is one of 21 homeowners yet to tap in, although most others cite money problems as the reason.

But if it goes to court, Mr. Williams could face a fine as high as $5,000 and imprisonment of up to 30 days. Every day he fails to comply also can be considered a separate offense.

It’s the latest in Mr. Williams’ campaign to avoid being wired, plugged in, tapped in or in the pipeline.

“If they want to play hard ball, I’ll play hard ball,” he said.

Mr. Williams served 31 days in the Washington County Jail for repeatedly cutting a guy wire securing an Allegheny Power utility pole on his property in 2005 and 2006. When the company kept reinstalling the wire, Mr. Williams dug a 5-foot hole and removed the guy wire anchor.

At the time, Allen Staggers of Allegheny Power said Mr. Williams’ actions could result in power outages and personal injury.

“It’s dangerous for people to tamper with our equipment, whether it is a live wire or a guy wire,” he said.

But Mr. Williams said the utility company’s right of way does not usurp his property rights. And to this day, the utility pole has no guy wire and leans a bit precariously over Reissing Road.

Without front teeth and wearing his trademark orange tassel cap, Mr. Williams said the citations, fines and jail time have strengthened his resolve to fight intrusions into his simple lifestyle.

“People let their wants outpace their needs, and that’s why we’re in economic trouble now,” he said.

Cost prompted him decades ago to wean himself from public utilities. He retired from Homestead Valve in 1974 and lives on Social Security and a small pension.

He collects rainwater from his roof gutters into a holding tank. The water then flows through a filter into a basement sink. His 1960s-era septic system includes two tanks.

His refusal to pay for electrical service prompted Allegheny Power to remove electrical lines to his house. He installed solar panels in his front window and relies on batteries to power his radio. He uses propane and wood for what little heat he needs and washes his clothes in a bucket, then dries them on a clothesline. Owning no refrigerator, he stores perishables in his basement. He has no telephone. Weeds fill his yard.

At 5 feet 11 inches, he weighs about 134 pounds and eats a diet of cereal, cheese, tomatoes and hoagies with little meat — and shares his diet with his dog, a mountain cur named Peppy. He said he hasn’t been to a doctor in 54 years, save for an exam to get his driver’s license.

Mr. Williams remains spry with bold opinions about the virtues of simplicity. And if necessary, he said, he’ll go to jail yet again, although he’s unsure what he would do with Peppy.

“People are used to going along, so they don’t rock the boat,” he said. “I’ll rock that boat.”

Bern
12-01-2010, 06:45 AM
Yeah property rights in the land of the free.

noxagol
12-01-2010, 06:50 AM
Any of you know if that is madison county, Illinois perchance? If so, he lives real close by to me.

Nevermind, its in indiana

Brooklyn Red Leg
12-01-2010, 07:28 AM
Peace and being left alone?

Not permitted, mundane.

Exactly. The Social Contract means everyone else around you gets to determine what you do.

james1906
12-01-2010, 07:37 AM
This guy seems to be the epitome of 'green living.' Where are the liberal treehuggers to support this guy?

armstrong
12-01-2010, 09:24 AM
bump so all can see this

Pericles
12-01-2010, 09:38 AM
"the protection guaranteed by the amendments is much broader in scope. The makers of our Constitution undertook to secure conditions favorable to the pursuit of happiness. They recognized the significance of man's spiritual nature, of his feelings and of his intellect . . . They sought to protect Americans in their beliefs, their thoughts, their emotions, and their sensations. They conferred as against the government the right to be left alone -- the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men."

Justice Louis Brandeis

Olmstead v. United States

Melissa
12-01-2010, 09:58 AM
at least for once the comments are encouraging

UtahApocalypse
12-01-2010, 10:06 AM
My question is this:

If you are forced to comply then you are also forced to pay?

kahless
12-01-2010, 10:31 AM
More proof we do not live in a free society that honors private property rights. If it was not zoning they would be forcing him to pay education - property taxes and taking his property if does not comply.

The people that are working against him are the true terrorists that threaten America. I hope the people as well as the militias put together a show a force in protest to stop these terrorists.

Bern
12-01-2010, 10:35 AM
I sent an email to Linda Smith, the clerk for the county commissioners office, asking what the scoop is for the eviction proceedings.

http://madisoncountyindiana.org/CountyOffices.html

ChaosControl
12-01-2010, 10:54 AM
I want the damn government destroyed, piece of **** scumbags.

GunnyFreedom
12-01-2010, 11:15 AM
Shared both Thompson and Williams on FB

aravoth
12-01-2010, 11:17 AM
I edited the OP, and put the county phone numbers on the front page. Call the county commissioners and tell them to put a stop to this. Harassing an old man that just wants to be left alone is utter bullshit.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 11:24 AM
Are they trying to take his land, or only trying to evict him from living on it?

Either way, I might go to the meeting. It’s like two counties over from Indianapolis. I’d like to go and at least video the commissioners (zoom in on all their faces and YT it).

sailingaway
12-01-2010, 11:28 AM
Are they trying to take his land, or only trying to evict him from living on it?

Either way, I might go to the meeting. It’s like two counties over from Indianapolis. I’d like to go and at least video the commissioners (zoom in on all their faces and YT it).

Post it when you do so we all can watch and favorite it.

This is messed up.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 11:29 AM
The Madison county website lists no meeting for the 7th, but there’s one for the same time on the 14th. I’m calling.

aravoth
12-01-2010, 12:09 PM
Should call the sheriffs office also, They must be fielding a few calls right now because no -one is answering...

TheeJoeGlass
12-01-2010, 12:21 PM
This is how home grown terrorism is born. This man is clearly not in his right mind, but he is living by himself and is hurting no one. Other than the high and mighty that want their crappy little Indiana town to not look so poor.:mad::mad:

idirtify
12-01-2010, 12:42 PM
God, did I just have a bit of fun! :D I just spoke with the planning commission of Madison county Indiana and found out that there are no meetings left, and no court date is set for the Dick Thompson case. Apparently it is the hands of a court/judge/trial at this time. But the planning commission was the responsible entity, and is the one to call about questions. But the best part was when I asked if I could check back periodically for updates. At that point, the lady I was speaking with got a defensive tone and asked me my name. I told her, and then I asked her for hers. Get this: she refused to tell me! I replied with, “you’re kidding; you’re not going to identify yourself?!” She said, “I don’t see why it matters.” It continued with something like, “but you’re a public official”; “no, I’m just an employee”, and after some coaxing she ended up giving me her first name only: “Liz”. (BTW, I got it all on tape. Anybody wanna hear it? It’s hilarious!) Apparently, judging from that ridiculous response, they have been getting some flack over this case. Let’s keep it up. Call the planning department right now at (765) 641-9480 and ask LIZ about the case of Dick Thompson. Don’t be rude, but play dumb and be persistent. First prize goes to the caller who succeeds in getting Liz’s last name!!!

ARealConservative
12-01-2010, 12:51 PM
no sewage is troubling. If everyone chose to go that route, we would have health problems at epidemic proportions.

he should at least create a septic tank and passive leach field, or he is responsible for the pollution, which will be far greater cost to him in the long run.

still off the grid, but being responsible for his "actions".

idirtify
12-01-2010, 01:01 PM
http://www.madisoncountyindiana.org/PlanningCommission.html
Apparently the man in charge of the planning commission is Bill Maxwell (at that same phone number). Here are all the board members:

Bill Maxwell, President
Wesley Likens, Vice President
John Simmermon
Mark Gary
Paul Wilson
John Orick
Pat Manship
Larry Crenshaw
Phil Isom

http://www.madisoncountyindiana.org/Plan%20Commission/PCA101210.pdf
It looks like I found the last name of our mystery lady: “Elizabeth A. Bruns, secretary”. But please, still feel free to call and try to get her to tell you. :)

But next appropriate question to them would be: “Which planning commission date on the website would have the minutes for the most recent Dick Thompson meeting?
http://www.madisoncountyindiana.org/PlanningCommission_AgendasandMinutes.html

fgd
12-01-2010, 01:07 PM
"no sewage is troubling."

Not in the least. A basic sawdust composting toilet built out of free materials will give years and years of service with no pathogens leaking into the environment at all. Instead, all you get is a pile of awesome compost.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 01:09 PM
no sewage is troubling. If everyone chose to go that route, we would have health problems at epidemic proportions.

he should at least create a septic tank and passive leach field, or he is responsible for the pollution, which will be far greater cost to him in the long run.

still off the grid, but being responsible for his "actions".

I’m curious. At what point does manure cease to be fertilizer and magically becomes “pollution”? This question is especially appropriate since we are not talking about “everyone”, but we ARE talking about ONE man living on FORTY acres which he OWNS!

sailingaway
12-01-2010, 01:11 PM
no sewage is troubling. If everyone chose to go that route, we would have health problems at epidemic proportions.

he should at least create a septic tank and passive leach field, or he is responsible for the pollution, which will be far greater cost to him in the long run.

still off the grid, but being responsible for his "actions".

It isn't all THAT troubling, for one person. It wasn't all THAT long ago that outhouses were the norm, still, in rural areas. (Not my lifetime, but my mother's.) Don't put it by the river, is all.

Dr.3D
12-01-2010, 01:15 PM
I’m curious. At what point does manure cease to be fertilizer and magically becomes “pollution”? This question is especially appropriate since we are not talking about “everyone”, but we ARE talking about ONE man living on FORTY acres which he OWNS!

That guy could build an outhouse and used it forever without causing any pollution. It might smell a bit down wind though.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 01:32 PM
I called again. Apparently they’ve been getting lots of calls. Liz read me a prepared statement from the county attorney:

“A zoning violation was filed against mr Thompson by the planning dept after an investigation commenced. After two hearings in superior court, the court entered an order that mr Thompson vacate the recreational vehicle as his permanent residence. Mr Thompson has the right to appeal through the courts. As of nov 30 mr Thompson said he was moving out of the RV. That doesn’t mean mr Thompson can’t go back on the property to feed and water his horses. Also mr Thompson can park his RV on the parcel; he just cannot reside there as his permanent residence.”

Anti Federalist
12-01-2010, 01:35 PM
For a more high tech off grid sewage solution:

Fully enclosed composting toilet:

http://www.natureshead.net/?gclid=CP3Wr_Ply6UCFRZ-5QodF33vmg

Incinerating toilet:

http://ecojohn.com/

oyarde
12-01-2010, 01:35 PM
Are they trying to take his land, or only trying to evict him from living on it?

Either way, I might go to the meeting. It’s like two counties over from Indianapolis. I’d like to go and at least video the commissioners (zoom in on all their faces and YT it).

No doubt , scumbags .

idirtify
12-01-2010, 01:36 PM
I called again. Apparently they’ve been getting lots of calls. Liz read me a prepared statement from the county attorney:

“A zoning violation was filed against mr Thompson by the planning dept after an investigation commenced. After two hearings in superior court, the court entered an order that mr Thompson vacate the recreational vehicle as his permanent residence. Mr Thompson has the right to appeal through the courts. As of nov 30 mr Thompson said he was moving out of the RV. That doesn’t mean mr Thompson can’t go back on the property to feed and water his horses. Also mr Thompson can park his RV on the parcel; he just cannot reside there as his permanent residence.”

So apparently it’s OK to have horse shit on your property, but not your own shit. It looks like that’s what it comes down to.

Anti Federalist
12-01-2010, 01:37 PM
This is how home grown terrorism is born. This man is clearly not in his right mind, but he is living by himself and is hurting no one. Other than the high and mighty that want their crappy little Indiana town to not look so poor.:mad::mad:

Wait, wait, wait, wut?

Why is this man not in his right mind?

:confused:

oyarde
12-01-2010, 01:38 PM
So apparently it’s OK to have horse shit on your property, but not your own shit. It looks like that’s what it comes down to.

Yeah , the leftists love animals , not people .

TonySutton
12-01-2010, 01:45 PM
Does it say anywhere what he is doing for water and sewage? I do not see it noted anywhere. Remember he is living in a recreational vehicle. Most have fresh water, gray water and black water storage tanks. He could be taking his trailer to a dump site to fill up with fresh water and discharge the sewage.

It amazes me that I can buy a trailer and travel the country for the rest of my life but if I try to put my trailer on my land and live there for the rest of my life I am suddenly a criminal. wtf??

Dr.3D
12-01-2010, 01:54 PM
A simple solution is for him to drive the RV to another location and live there for a time, then move to another location and do the same thing. Seems they just don't want him living on his own land.

aravoth
12-01-2010, 02:03 PM
God, did I just have a bit of fun! :D I just spoke with the planning commission of Madison county Indiana and found out that there are no meetings left, and no court date is set for the Dick Thompson case. Apparently it is the hands of a court/judge/trial at this time. But the planning commission was the responsible entity, and is the one to call about questions. But the best part was when I asked if I could check back periodically for updates. At that point, the lady I was speaking with got a defensive tone and asked me my name. I told her, and then I asked her for hers. Get this: she refused to tell me! I replied with, “you’re kidding; you’re not going to identify yourself?!” She said, “I don’t see why it matters.” It continued with something like, “but you’re a public official”; “no, I’m just an employee”, and after some coaxing she ended up giving me her first name only: “Liz”. (BTW, I got it all on tape. Anybody wanna hear it? It’s hilarious!) Apparently, judging from that ridiculous response, they have been getting some flack over this case. Let’s keep it up. Call the planning department right now at (765) 641-9480 and ask LIZ about the case of Dick Thompson. Don’t be rude, but play dumb and be persistent. First prize goes to the caller who succeeds in getting Liz’s last name!!!

Yes I want to hear it, upload to youtube plz!

aravoth
12-01-2010, 02:07 PM
no sewage is troubling. If everyone chose to go that route, we would have health problems at epidemic proportions.

he should at least create a septic tank and passive leach field, or he is responsible for the pollution, which will be far greater cost to him in the long run.

still off the grid, but being responsible for his "actions".

dude, it's his property, he owns 36 acres ourtight. He can take a shit anywhere on that property, because it's his. He can drop a turd in the driveway, in the middle of a field, he can even climb a tree and drop a deuce right on the tallest branch. Why?

Because it's his.

aravoth
12-01-2010, 02:08 PM
I called again. Apparently they’ve been getting lots of calls. Liz read me a prepared statement from the county attorney:

“A zoning violation was filed against mr Thompson by the planning dept after an investigation commenced. After two hearings in superior court, the court entered an order that mr Thompson vacate the recreational vehicle as his permanent residence. Mr Thompson has the right to appeal through the courts. As of nov 30 mr Thompson said he was moving out of the RV. That doesn’t mean mr Thompson can’t go back on the property to feed and water his horses. Also mr Thompson can park his RV on the parcel; he just cannot reside there as his permanent residence.”

I'm gonna ask her if it's ok to sleep in a tent on my own property in madison county.

sailingaway
12-01-2010, 02:12 PM
I'm gonna ask her if it's ok to sleep in a tent on my own property in madison county.

What law is he supposed to have violated?

I honestly don't get this.

aravoth
12-01-2010, 02:16 PM
What law is he supposed to have violated?

I honestly don't get this.

He violated county zoning laws by living in an RV on his own property.

He is charged with not living the way the government thinks he should.

sailingaway
12-01-2010, 02:18 PM
I mean, come on. Given the economy, there are about 3 recreational vehicles I RECOGNIZE because they periodically park around the larger neighborhood area in different spots NOT on their own land. Since the people living in them aren't taking leaks by our garbage cans, we just pretend they aren't there. It isn't ideal, we have kids and worry about transients, it is a nice neighborhood (likely why they would rather be here.) But, come on, they are trying to take care of themselves as best they can, and seem to be respecting us and our stuff.

And this is on his own PROPERTY.

I literally don't get how a law can prevent someone from living in an RV on 40 acres of their own property.

ARealConservative
12-01-2010, 02:20 PM
dude, it's his property, he owns 36 acres ourtight. He can take a shit anywhere on that property, because it's his. He can drop a turd in the driveway, in the middle of a field, he can even climb a tree and drop a deuce right on the tallest branch. Why?

Because it's his.

What a person does to their property does have an effect on others. You are not free to pollute those around you.

It is unsanitary, not just for him, but those around him. He is liable for damage done based on his improper handling of human waste. If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isn’t going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.

He needs to build a passive leach field (assuming he isn’t paying someone to handle his waste in a non-polluting manner)!

aravoth
12-01-2010, 02:22 PM
What a person does to their property does have an effect on others. You are not free to pollute those around you.

It is unsanitary, not just for him, but those around him. He is liable for damage done based on his improper handling of human waste. If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isn’t going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.

He needs to build a passive leach field (assuming he isn’t paying someone to handle his waste in a non-polluting manner)!

How is he polluting people around him exactly? His horses shit 10 times as much as he does, does he need a passive leach field for that?

robert9712000
12-01-2010, 02:36 PM
What a person does to their property does have an effect on others. You are not free to pollute those around you.

It is unsanitary, not just for him, but those around him. He is liable for damage done based on his improper handling of human waste. If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isn’t going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.

He needs to build a passive leach field (assuming he isn’t paying someone to handle his waste in a non-polluting manner)!



That is kind of a ignorant comment.as the other person stated he lives on 36 acres and im sure his horse craps a lot more than him,Plus you know not everyone is gonna do what he does because 90 percent of people wouldn't want to deal with the inconvenience .So why not just let the few who wanna live that way do what they want.

The second problem i see with your thinking is the preemptive judgment that hes gonna pollute.Instead of judging a person for what they might do,why don't you judge a person for what they actually do

sailingaway
12-01-2010, 02:44 PM
What a person does to their property does have an effect on others. You are not free to pollute those around you.

It is unsanitary, not just for him, but those around him. He is liable for damage done based on his improper handling of human waste. If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isn’t going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.

He needs to build a passive leach field (assuming he isn’t paying someone to handle his waste in a non-polluting manner)!

40 acres is a HUGE leachfield.

oyarde
12-01-2010, 03:41 PM
It's happening with relative frequency...the public utilities commission got the police involved in this case, and the guy's actually gone to jail--3 times. It's fucking outrageous:

http://www.off-grid.net/2008/08/20/william-williams-fighting-fund/

The jagoffs in Penn that did this ............. unbelievable . I am speechless .

armstrong
12-01-2010, 03:46 PM
Does it say anywhere what he is doing for water and sewage? I do not see it noted anywhere. Remember he is living in a recreational vehicle. Most have fresh water, gray water and black water storage tanks. He could be taking his trailer to a dump site to fill up with fresh water and discharge the sewage.

It amazes me that I can buy a trailer and travel the country for the rest of my life but if I try to put my trailer on my land and live there for the rest of my life I am suddenly a criminal. wtf??

this people,,:mad:

TruckinMike
12-01-2010, 04:16 PM
This makes my BLOOD BOIL --- (I would say more but I'm afraid that josh would have NO CHOICE, but to put a permanent ban on my account.)

TMike:mad:

idirtify
12-01-2010, 04:26 PM
Yes I want to hear it, upload to youtube plz!

First I’m gonna have to learn how to go from cassette tape to audio file. My pc has Nero on it, so it shouldn’t be hard – just never done it before.

TruckinMike
12-01-2010, 05:19 PM
What a person does to their property does have an effect on others. You are not free to pollute those around you.

It is unsanitary, not just for him, but those around him. He is liable for damage done based on his improper handling of human waste. If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isn’t going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.

He needs to build a passive leach field (assuming he isn’t paying someone to handle his waste in a non-polluting manner)!

Is it smelly(35 acres is a long way for smell to travel)?Running into a stream? Or did he dig a hole and let the Waste go in there?

I can tell you for a fact, for one person, all he needs for the RV toilet is a 4 foot deep hole 1 foot in diameter with a piece of 3/4 plywood covering it -- . And let the grey water(what little there would be) run out of a hose away from where he walks.

Thats all he needs. Clean, no smell, and sanitary.

I know this to be true because that is exactly the way I have a small trailer set up on my property right now. Its been there 3 years with No smell, no mess, and sanitary. With one person living in it -- with all the water they can use.

TMike

PS- And I even have heavy clay content soil.

PPS- "City sewage" is WAY over rated. Its for the sheeple. Folks nowadays have no clue how easy, and how well a simple septic can work. The government wants you thinking that you need it ---- But we understand that, don't we??

Reason
12-01-2010, 05:29 PM
have we heard anything more on if he got evicted?

idirtify
12-01-2010, 05:43 PM
have we heard anything more on if he got evicted?

see post #31.

Vessol
12-01-2010, 05:47 PM
What the fuck?

oyarde
12-01-2010, 05:47 PM
I called again. Apparently they’ve been getting lots of calls. Liz read me a prepared statement from the county attorney:

“A zoning violation was filed against mr Thompson by the planning dept after an investigation commenced. After two hearings in superior court, the court entered an order that mr Thompson vacate the recreational vehicle as his permanent residence. Mr Thompson has the right to appeal through the courts. As of nov 30 mr Thompson said he was moving out of the RV. That doesn’t mean mr Thompson can’t go back on the property to feed and water his horses. Also mr Thompson can park his RV on the parcel; he just cannot reside there as his permanent residence.”

What are the bastards going to do ? I would just tell them I am moving out . I would just go back and live there , are they going to check on you every day ? It is cold out now , windows & doors will be closed , just do not answer . If they catch you in the yard , you say you are checking on the livestock . They cannot require you give them another address . You may have to get a po box .

ARealConservative
12-01-2010, 06:43 PM
How is he polluting people around him exactly? His horses shit 10 times as much as he does, does he need a passive leach field for that?

this depends largely on the people around him.

as I said, if just one person lived like animals, it doesn't cause a problem.

But if we all did it, then it would be a huge problem.

so rather then allowing a huge problem to develop, I completely endorse local communities setting basic requirements - like requiring a septic system to handle waste matter.

i'm just crazy that way.

but this is the point where I remind myself it is a waste of time arguing with the purists and slowly back away.

ARealConservative
12-01-2010, 06:45 PM
I can tell you for a fact, for one person, all he needs for the RV toilet is a 4 foot deep hole 1 foot in diameter with a piece of 3/4 plywood covering it -- . And let the grey water(what little there would be) run out of a hose away from where he walks.

Thats all he needs. Clean, no smell, and sanitary.

sounds like a simple leach field. works for me!

oyarde
12-01-2010, 06:49 PM
Waste is not a problem at all as long as nobody is ingesting it .

amy31416
12-01-2010, 06:53 PM
http://humanurehandbook.com/

Lots of great tech info on the microbiology of human poo composting. It's the most eco-friendly and inexpensive way to deal with human waste.

It is rather odd when you think about the fact that we take completely potable drinking water, intentionally contaminate it, flush it and forget about it when so many can't even get clean drinking water.

Even if you're squeamish about this sort of thing, it's really great information to have if there's a disastrous breakdown of public sewage systems. What's your alternative then? There's a PDF of the each chapter that's free to read: http://humanurehandbook.com/contents.html

ARealConservative
12-01-2010, 06:53 PM
Waste is not a problem at all as long as nobody is ingesting it .

but if it isn't handled properly, people will ingest it.

http://www.swopnet.com/engr/sanitation/India_sewers.html

Todd
12-01-2010, 07:35 PM
For a more high tech off grid sewage solution:

Fully enclosed composting toilet:

http://www.natureshead.net/?gclid=CP3Wr_Ply6UCFRZ-5QodF33vmg

Incinerating toilet:

http://ecojohn.com/


People could pitch in and buy him one. Problem solved.

now, Get the **** out government.

johnny.rebel
12-01-2010, 08:06 PM
What a person does to their property does have an effect on others. You are not free to pollute those around you.

It is unsanitary, not just for him, but those around him. He is liable for damage done based on his improper handling of human waste. If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isn’t going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.

He needs to build a passive leach field (assuming he isn’t paying someone to handle his waste in a non-polluting manner)!
what is your claim against this guy? if he's not bothering you, why do you care?

CaliforniaMom
12-01-2010, 08:08 PM
I wonder if the government will start doing this to the Amish, or others who want to just live a simple life.

Something similar happened to my grandfather's friend. He built a traditional log cabin by hand on his land with no electricity or water. The govenment came in and told him he couldn't live there because the cabin wasn't following the building codes. He told them he built it that way because that was how he wanted to live. But the government wouldn't allow it.

oyarde
12-01-2010, 08:19 PM
I believe it , crazy !

Dr.3D
12-01-2010, 08:21 PM
"Oh we have ordinances, people have to follow the ordinances!" :rolleyes:

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-01-2010, 08:27 PM
Government is force. Government is the negation of liberty. Until people stop believing in the notion that you must violate property rights in order to 'save' property rights nothing will change. It's the same BS as Bushisms 'We must abandon capitalism to save capitalism', even though we have no such thing, and even if we did that statement is beyond absurd. In any event, the Government is the opposite of private property, and it cannot be said to uphold it, when its founding charters make it in violation of the principles of homesteading, private property, and self-ownership. GET GOVERNMENT OUT OF EVERYTHING.

Voluntary land clubs & associations are immeasurably superior to Government/State.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 09:03 PM
but if it isn't handled properly, people will ingest it.

http://www.swopnet.com/engr/sanitation/India_sewers.html

It seems your argument has been refuted more than a couple times, but you persist as if you don’t understand. Now you compare one man in a 36-acre field in an agricultural region of a technologically advanced country like the US with the filthy conditions of an over-crowded third world country like India. Amazing. Do you have any concept of how big 36 acres is? Do you know anything about the lay of this parcel of land? Do you know if it’s wooded, or meadow, or all pasture? Do you know anything about drainage, fertilizer, horticulture, livestock, soil-type, percolation, precipitation, or the conditions for pathogenic microbes? Because to credibly insinuate the allegations you are insinuating, you must know all these things AND assume the worst.

I raise domestic rats. Do you think I should be prevented because of bubonic plague in medieval Europe? :confused:

idirtify
12-01-2010, 09:06 PM
I wonder if the government will start doing this to the Amish, or others who want to just live a simple life.

Something similar happened to my grandfather's friend. He built a traditional log cabin by hand on his land with no electricity or water. The govenment came in and told him he couldn't live there because the cabin wasn't following the building codes. He told them he built it that way because that was how he wanted to live. But the government wouldn't allow it.

what happened then?

low preference guy
12-01-2010, 09:06 PM
Government is force. Government is the negation of liberty. Until people stop believing in the notion that you must violate property rights in order to 'save' property rights nothing will change. It's the same BS as Bushisms 'We must abandon capitalism to save capitalism', even though we have no such thing, and even if we did that statement is beyond absurd. In any event, the Government is the opposite of private property, and it cannot be said to uphold it, when its founding charters make it in violation of the principles of homesteading, private property, and self-ownership. GET GOVERNMENT OUT OF EVERYTHING.

Voluntary land clubs & associations are immeasurably superior to Government/State.

So if there is one violent enterprise in a territory, that is evil and wrong. If there are two or more violent enterprises in the same territory, then everything is great. Is this the anarchist position? If not, please clarity.

oyarde
12-01-2010, 09:07 PM
It seems your argument has been refuted more than a couple times, but you persist as if you don’t understand. Now you compare one man in a 36-acre field in an agricultural region of a technologically advanced country like the US with the filthy conditions of an over-crowded third world country like India. Amazing. Do you have any concept of how big 36 acres is? Do you know anything about the lay of this parcel of land? Do you know if it’s wooded, or meadow, or all pasture? Do you know anything about drainage, fertilizer, horticulture, livestock, soil-type, percolation, precipitation, or the conditions for pathogenic microbes? Because to credibly insinuate the allegations you are insinuating, you must know all these things AND assume the worst.

I raise domestic rats. Do you think I should be prevented because of bubonic plague in medieval Europe? :confused:

Dont tell everybody about that new plague you have been working on ! :D

idirtify
12-01-2010, 09:15 PM
Dont tell everybody about that new plague you have been working on ! :D

Right. In fact, we better make laws against animals dying, since cadavers/carcasses produce ptomaine poisoning; and if roadkill “ISN’T HANDLED PROPERLY, PEOPLE WILL INGEST IT”. :eek: LOL.

oyarde
12-01-2010, 09:16 PM
Right. In fact, we better make laws against animals dying, since cadavers/carcasses produce ptomaine poisoning; and if roadkill “ISN’T HANDLED PROPERLY, PEOPLE WILL INGEST IT”. :eek: LOL.

Hilarious !

Bern
12-01-2010, 09:17 PM
idirtify, did anyone ever tell you *what* zoning ordinance was being violated? How does the county planning commission claim jurisdiction to zone his property?

idirtify
12-01-2010, 09:19 PM
Waste is not a problem at all as long as nobody is ingesting it .

Exactly!

Hey, ArealConservative,
You want to know how to properly “handle” shit in a field? DON’T!
:)

kahless
12-01-2010, 09:19 PM
I wonder if the government will start doing this to the Amish, or others who want to just live a simple life.

Something similar happened to my grandfather's friend. He built a traditional log cabin by hand on his land with no electricity or water. The govenment came in and told him he couldn't live there because the cabin wasn't following the building codes. He told them he built it that way because that was how he wanted to live. But the government wouldn't allow it.

What happened?

You only get one life and mine is more than half over. I have been working towards living that kind of simple life my whole life but government always stands in the way.

The obstacles - zoning, ordinances and property taxes (local, county, state and education taxes). Coming soon will be the expensive healthcare mandate, so it looks like government will never allow me to live free.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-01-2010, 09:20 PM
So if there is one violent enterprise in a territory, that is evil and wrong. If there are two or more violent enterprises in the same territory, then everything is great. Is this the anarchist position? If not, please clarity.

How again are voluntary organizations that do not violate property rights and uphold them violent? I don't even know how you picked that out, from what I said.

moostraks
12-01-2010, 09:23 PM
I wonder if the government will start doing this to the Amish, or others who want to just live a simple life.

Something similar happened to my grandfather's friend. He built a traditional log cabin by hand on his land with no electricity or water. The govenment came in and told him he couldn't live there because the cabin wasn't following the building codes. He told them he built it that way because that was how he wanted to live. But the government wouldn't allow it.

They are constantly battling the state over this issue. One example:

http://www.blogtopsites.com/outpost/b5f42d80b5bda64a787e26cd14a54a67

low preference guy
12-01-2010, 09:23 PM
How again are voluntary organizations that do not violate property rights and uphold them violent? I don't even know how you picked that out, from what I said.

so what happens in a voluntary society when someone punches you in the face? if there is any organized way to punish him such that force is used, there is a violent organization that does that, either spontaneous or permanent.

or are you saying that in your voluntary society when someone punches you in the face, nothing happens to the aggressor?

idirtify
12-01-2010, 09:25 PM
idirtify, did anyone ever tell you *what* zoning ordinance was being violated? How does the county planning commission claim jurisdiction to zone his property?

I don’t know the answer to either. I know you could call them and ask them those excellent questions. I also know that lots of local codes are not really legal/constitutional, but you have to spend lots of legal fees to fight city hall. And if you win (unlikely), your prize is lots of scowls from residents and loss of police service, among other things (know from experience).

oyarde
12-01-2010, 09:25 PM
idirtify, did anyone ever tell you *what* zoning ordinance was being violated? How does the county planning commission claim jurisdiction to zone his property?

I am curious about that , I bet it is because of no septic .

CCTelander
12-01-2010, 09:26 PM
It seems your argument has been refuted more than a couple times, but you persist as if you don’t understand. Now you compare one man in a 36-acre field in an agricultural region of a technologically advanced country like the US with the filthy conditions of an over-crowded third world country like India. Amazing. Do you have any concept of how big 36 acres is? Do you know anything about the lay of this parcel of land? Do you know if it’s wooded, or meadow, or all pasture? Do you know anything about drainage, fertilizer, horticulture, livestock, soil-type, percolation, precipitation, or the conditions for pathogenic microbes? Because to credibly insinuate the allegations you are insinuating, you must know all these things AND assume the worst.

I raise domestic rats. Do you think I should be prevented because of bubonic plague in medieval Europe? :confused:


Some people just have a hard time giving up the "security" of being able to point guns at others to get their way. Go figure.

CCTelander
12-01-2010, 09:29 PM
what happened then?


My guess?

They sent out an 80 member SWAT team, shot the place full of holes (with him IN it), gassed the poor guy with tear gas and hauled him away in handcuffs. All for his own "safety," of course.

Dr.3D
12-01-2010, 09:29 PM
Some people just have a hard time giving up the "security" of being able to point guns at others to get their way. Go figure.

But, but, but... all of those 'officials' who were elected to the planning board would be out of a job. :rolleyes:

Dr.3D
12-01-2010, 09:30 PM
My guess?

They sent out an 80 member SWAT team, shot the place full of holes (with him IN it), gassed the poor guy with tear gas and hauled him away in handcuffs. All for his own "safety," of course.

Probably more likely, something similar to what happened at Waco.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 09:30 PM
so what happens in a voluntary society when someone punches you in the face? if there is any organized way to punish him such that force is used, there is a violent organization that does that, either spontaneous or permanent.

or are you saying that in your voluntary society when someone punches you in the face, nothing happens to the aggressor?

That’s where you have to separate initiated violence from self-defense and justice. While finding out who started it (who crossed the line into overt aggression) is not always easy, it is key. So hopefully you can see that justice is not violence/aggression. The distinction is fairly important.

moostraks
12-01-2010, 09:33 PM
http://humanurehandbook.com/

Lots of great tech info on the microbiology of human poo composting. It's the most eco-friendly and inexpensive way to deal with human waste.

It is rather odd when you think about the fact that we take completely potable drinking water, intentionally contaminate it, flush it and forget about it when so many can't even get clean drinking water.

Even if you're squeamish about this sort of thing, it's really great information to have if there's a disastrous breakdown of public sewage systems. What's your alternative then? There's a PDF of the each chapter that's free to read: http://humanurehandbook.com/contents.html

:D Funny, I own this book. I am also a member of compost-toilet · waterless odourless eco toilets compost-toilet http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/compost-toilet/ For the true enthusiast. :p

The Humanure Handbook is an very cool resource. Eye opening as to the wasteful nature of how we deal with human waste.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-01-2010, 09:34 PM
so what happens in a voluntary society when someone punches you in the face? if there is any organized way to punish him such that force is used, there is a violent organization that does that, either spontaneous or permanent.

or are you saying that in your voluntary society when someone punches you in the face, nothing happens to the aggressor?

It was my assumption that you know enough of my arguments to adequately know that when I say force, I am specifically talking about the initiation of force. Well, I guess our many posts between each other have not reflected any understanding between us.

Now, since that issue has been cleared up, you have any objections? As to what would happen, it would go to a court of law or any other such abitratrative system where a judgment would be found either for or against the plaintiff. Personally, I prefer a non-statutory law legal system (E.g. I prefer polycentric law orders focused around common/customary law). There is a ton of precedence for these types of societies. They certainly weren't the egregious violators of person and property that Government certainly is. It is still highly hilarious to see the lengths people will go to to actually brainwash themselves into believing the engine of oppression, and anti-private property is actually an engine of liberty and private property. (Not saying you do, because I all ready know your views, but there are many folks around here who fit that billet)

PS: I am not against the use of force, merely the initiation of such force. Obviously a person who has initiated force has no legitimate claim to not have force used against him. That is just logic 101.

low preference guy
12-01-2010, 09:35 PM
So hopefully you can see that justice is not violence/aggression.

violence in retaliation is still violence

low preference guy
12-01-2010, 09:37 PM
It was my assumption that you know enough of my arguments to adequately know that when I say force, I am specifically talking about the initiation of force. Well, I guess our many posts between each other have not reflected any understanding between us.

Now, since that issue has been cleared up, you have any objections? As to what would happen, it would go to a court of law or any other such abitratrative system where a judgment would be found either for or against the plaintiff. Personally, I prefer a non-statutory law legal system (E.g. I prefer polycentric law orders focused around common/customary law). There is a ton of precedence for these types of societies. They certainly weren't the egregious violators of person and property that Government certainly is. It is still highly hilarious to see the lengths people will go to to actually brainwash themselves into believing the engine of oppression, and anti-private property is actually an engine of liberty and private property. (Not saying you do, because I all ready know your views, but there are many folks around here who fit that billet)

so back to the question, what is the key reason of why you like what you are talking about and call a situation in which there is one state wrong?

in other words... is the key the fact that there are two or more violent enterprises instead of one? or is the key that they don't initiate force? if the latter, if there is only one agency that deals with retributive violence, but doesn't initiate force, is that also good? a theoretical example would be a state that protects nothing but life and property and is funded by Bill Gates. it's theoretical. it would be a monopoly that doesn't initiate violence, or at least i fail to see how it does.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 09:37 PM
I have a mission for yall. Go to the GIS map of Madison County through here:

http://mccog.grwinc.com/default.asp
(go to bottom and press “accept and enter…search service”)

And find a 36-acre parcel owned by Richard Thompson. Then post the parcel number.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 09:42 PM
violence in retaliation is still violence

While you changed “justice” to “retaliation” (not as familiar with defintion), it’s still not “INITIATED violence”. Individual liberty is all about the cessation of INITIATED aggression. IOW, it’s all about WHO STARTED IT.

low preference guy
12-01-2010, 09:44 PM
While you changed “justice” to “retaliation” (not as familiar with defintion), it’s still not “INITIATED violence”. Individual liberty is all about the cessation of INITIATED aggression. IOW, it’s all about WHO STARTED IT.

so justified violent retaliation is not synonym with justice? isn't putting a killer in jail using force justified violent retaliation AND justice?

Vessol
12-01-2010, 09:44 PM
He becomes socially ostracized for one. Go over and punch your neighbor in the face. Then see how the rest of the neighbors look at youy.

amy31416
12-01-2010, 09:46 PM
:D Funny, I own this book. I am also a member of compost-toilet · waterless odourless eco toilets compost-toilet http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/compost-toilet/ For the true enthusiast. :p

The Humanure Handbook is an very cool resource. Eye opening as to the wasteful nature of how we deal with human waste.

And it's stupid-funny too. :) Lots of poo jokes, yet lots of valuable information on the actual microbiology...invaluable resource, even if you might never have to use the info, in my opinion.

Made me start to think that it's absolutely asinine that so many 3rd world countries have issues with human waste disposal, when it could be so (relatively) simple.

Dr.3D
12-01-2010, 09:46 PM
He becomes socially ostracized for one. Go over and punch your neighbor in the face. Then see how the rest of the neighbors look at youy.

That would depend on if the neighbors liked the one you punched. Maybe they would all invite you over for dinner.

low preference guy
12-01-2010, 09:46 PM
good discussion. gotta go now. will check back the thread.

CCTelander
12-01-2010, 09:46 PM
While you changed “justice” to “retaliation” (not as familiar with defintion), it’s still not “INITIATED violence”. Individual liberty is all about the cessation of INITIATED aggression. IOW, it’s all about WHO STARTED IT.


A bit oversimplified, perhaps, but this really does hit at the heart of the matter.

Funny how virtually ALL of us understood this so perfectly back in Kindergarten, but some have managed to somehow "forget."

idirtify
12-01-2010, 09:48 PM
a theoretical example would be a state that protects nothing but life and property and is funded by Bill Gates. it's theoretical. it would be a monopoly that doesn't initiate violence, or at least i fail to see how it does.

Well the theory of a monopoly on justice is not the best theory. Such a monopoly implies a no-opt-out system. A better theory is competing systems which are like any other enterprise (buy our service only if you want it), where they would have to do a good job or they would die.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-01-2010, 09:49 PM
so back to the question, what is the key reason of why you like what you are talking about and call a situation in which there is one state wrong?

in other words... is the key the fact that there are two or more violent enterprises instead of one? or is the key that they don't initiate force? if the latter, if there is only one agency that deals with retributive violence, but doesn't initiate force, is that also good? a theoretical example would be a state that protects nothing but life and property and is funded by Bill Gates. it's theoretical. it would be a monopoly that doesn't initiate violence, or at least i fail to see how it does.


it would be a monopoly that doesn't initiate violence, or at least i fail to see how it does.

I suppose you assume this theoretical situation is sealed in a time vacuum where time never moves forward and it is eternally stuck in the same state of being forever? Well, if you do that hardly serves as any useful tool for anything. So, let us assume the otherwise.

I suppose in your scenario there is also never an ounce of corruption (especially not from the sole provider of the entirity of the system), and that everything runs as if everyone is an angel? Well since that obviously isn't the case let's scratch that. We can safely pressupose that Mr. Gates will undoubtedly assert growing control over his monopoly, and will want a return on his sums of cash he is giving away. Imagine now an individual who has been ruled against, egregiously so, in a case where it was clear his property had been violated by the State under which Mr. Gates holds supreme authority. He rejects further involvement in the state of affairs, and wishes to set up a new competiting authority/firm/etc. Will Mr. Gates, and this benevolent dictator State freely let him go? Of course not. A State presupposes an involuntary state of affairs, and hence no one is allowed to leave the State (For then it would not be a monopoly in a given territory if persons, and entities could seceede from it (That would be called voluntary the opposite of a State)).

In any event, we didn't even need to delve into it to see the absurdity. The definitions themselves give clear inclination that a State can never be voluntary, and therefore your scenario is oxymoronical (A logical absurdity).

I like and prefer voluntary organizations because they respects as a foundational layer persons property, liberty, and life; whereas involuntary organizations are precisely the opposite. The State occupies the involuntary, and the firm, enterprise, associations, clubs, orders, polycentricities, etc. occupy the former.

oyarde
12-01-2010, 09:55 PM
A bit oversimplified, perhaps, but this really does hit at the heart of the matter.

Funny how virtually ALL of us understood this so perfectly back in Kindergarten, but some have managed to somehow "forget."

Yep , I was pretty smart in kindergarten ( kinder = children , garten = garden ) :)

low preference guy
12-01-2010, 09:57 PM
I suppose you assume this theoretical situation is sealed in a time vacuum where time never moves forward and it is eternally stuck in the same state of being forever? Well, if you do that hardly serves as any useful tool for anything. So, let us assume the otherwise.



no. it's just a state with laws, which receives donations. it's not inconceivable. if you don't want to talk about Bill Gates, suppose one day I become rich and fund a small state. that state has only laws to protect life and property. but it's a monopoly.



A State presupposes an involuntary state of affairs, and hence no one is allowed to leave the State (For then it would not be a monopoly in a given territory if persons, and entities could seceede from it (That would be called voluntary the opposite of a State)).




In any event, we didn't even need to delve into it to see the absurdity. The definitions themselves give clear inclination that a State can never be voluntary, and therefore your scenario is oxymoronical (A logical absurdity).


i don't see the logical absurdity. let's scratch the word state in case we have different conceptions. let me just introduce the definition without using the word state. i'm talking about an organization funded by donations, which protects life and property of individuals, and is the only organization of its type in a given area. if you kill or steal, there are penalties for that, possibly jail.

i don't see the logical absurdity. can you be specific as to where is the contradiction?

anyway, i wanted a simple answer for why you dislike what you dislike. you dislike a scenario in which one entity has the monopoly in the use of force because it is a monopoly? if not, why? i think this is a pretty basic question.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 09:58 PM
so justified violent retaliation is not synonym with justice? isn't putting a killer in jail using force justified violent retaliation AND justice?

Your reasoning is good but your word usage isn’t perfect. It’s good except for your insertion of “violence”, which in these realms usually implies INITIATION of force; as is listed here
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence
in definition number three:

vi·o·lence 
3. an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights

Therefore, you should see how your insertion is not the best choice of terms.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 10:00 PM
He becomes socially ostracized for one. Go over and punch your neighbor in the face. Then see how the rest of the neighbors look at youy.

Yes, very good point. And since it will also all be on YouTube in the future, you will be afraid to leave the house.

low preference guy
12-01-2010, 10:00 PM
Your reasoning is good but your word usage isn’t perfect. It’s good except for your insertion of “violence”, which in these realms usually implies INITIATION of force; as is listed here
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence
in definition number three:

vi·o·lence 
3. an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights

Therefore, you should see how your insertion is not the best choice of terms.

i think violence is the natural word for what i mean, the expression of physical force against a person. what is your alternative?

idirtify
12-01-2010, 10:15 PM
And it's stupid-funny too. :) Lots of poo jokes, yet lots of valuable information on the actual microbiology...invaluable resource, even if you might never have to use the info, in my opinion.

Made me start to think that it's absolutely asinine that so many 3rd world countries have issues with human waste disposal, when it could be so (relatively) simple.

Much (most?) fertilization problems in the US could be solved by pooing in the field.

New Green Invention: the Pooseat upgrade for your car. Basically a toilet/driver’s seat with automatic hatch underneath. You drive through a farm field after the crops are out, make a “deposit”, and feel good that you recycled. If the field is wet and muddy, you drive through the “private” bay at the recycling center (curtained-off of course), and deposit in the sub-floor tank (which any local farmer can swing by and pick up). light-bulb-smiley

idirtify
12-01-2010, 10:20 PM
A bit oversimplified, perhaps, but this really does hit at the heart of the matter.

Funny how virtually ALL of us understood this so perfectly back in Kindergarten, but some have managed to somehow "forget."

Well that depends on your kindergarten teacher. Many would just yell, “I don’t care who started it, you are both disrupting the class and will both go to the corner!” And that was one of the many beginnings of our indoctrination into collectivism.

CCTelander
12-01-2010, 10:24 PM
Well that depends on your kindergarten teacher. Many would just yell, “I don’t care who started it, you are both disrupting the class and will both go to the corner!” And that was one of the many beginnings of our indoctrination into collectivism.


The teachers would probably ALL resort to that. The KIDS, however, are usually the ones saying "He started it!"

That's how it was when I was in school anyway, like 100 or so years ago. ALL the kids understood. The "authorities" were the ones who didn't get it.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 10:32 PM
i think violence is the natural word for what i mean, the expression of physical force against a person. what is your alternative?

We are where we are (forum w theme of individual liberty), and the third definition of ‘violence’ is the most contextual. Again, individual liberty is all about the truce on INITIATED aggression. Using “violence” in this environment will typically relay INTIATION of force. If we can’t agree on definitions, we will have difficulty discussing; and “violence” does not appear to be the natural word for what you mean.

low preference guy
12-01-2010, 10:35 PM
We are where we are (forum w theme of individual liberty), and the third definition of ‘violence’ is the most contextual. Again, individual liberty is all about the truce on INITIATED aggression. Using “violence” in this environment will typically relay INTIATION of force. If we can’t agree on definitions, we will have difficulty discussing; and “violence” does not appear to be the natural word for what you mean.

that's what you posted in the previous post. so i asked you a new question. what is your word? what word do you use to refer to "the expression of physical force against a person" that is better to use than violence?

idirtify
12-01-2010, 10:42 PM
The teachers would probably ALL resort to that. The KIDS, however, are usually the ones saying "He started it!"

That's how it was when I was in school anyway, like 100 or so years ago. ALL the kids understood. The "authorities" were the ones who didn't get it.

Well at least we children had the right idea. Not that we always told the truth about who started it, since children are often little tyrants too. But now that we are clear-thinking adults, we can better understand the parameters for “starting it”. And we have the best tool ever invented for communicating the vital information. And may I say it’s a pleasure to participate in that (re)educational process with such fine folks as present company.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 10:48 PM
that's what you posted in the previous post. so i asked you a new question. what is your word? what word do you use to refer to "the expression of physical force against a person" that is better to use than violence?

Oh, OK. How’s “justified SELF-DEFENSE”?

low preference guy
12-01-2010, 10:49 PM
Oh, OK. How’s “justified SELF-DEFENSE”?

this is the moment that you convinced me we can't have a discussion. talk to you in the distant future.

idirtify
12-01-2010, 11:27 PM
this is the moment that you convinced me we can't have a discussion. talk to you in the distant future.

Right; if we can’t agree on definitions, it will be exceedingly difficult.

CaliforniaMom
12-02-2010, 12:04 AM
what happened then?

I'm not sure how it all turned out. My grandfather told me about that a few years ago. I'll ask him about it again when I see him on Friday.

Humanae Libertas
12-02-2010, 05:13 AM
Good to see the government arresting terrorists. How extreme is that: no water, electricity, etc. This guy must be part Taliban or something. :rolleyes:

ARealConservative
12-02-2010, 07:18 AM
It seems your argument has been refuted more than a couple times, but you persist as if you don’t understand. Now you compare one man in a 36-acre field in an agricultural region of a technologically advanced country like the US with the filthy conditions of an over-crowded third world country like India. Amazing. Do you have any concept of how big 36 acres is? Do you know anything about the lay of this parcel of land? Do you know if it’s wooded, or meadow, or all pasture? Do you know anything about drainage, fertilizer, horticulture, livestock, soil-type, percolation, precipitation, or the conditions for pathogenic microbes? Because to credibly insinuate the allegations you are insinuating, you must know all these things AND assume the worst.

I raise domestic rats. Do you think I should be prevented because of bubonic plague in medieval Europe? :confused:

refuted, lmao.

you nitwits haven't refuted a thing.

As I previously stated:

If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isn’t going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.

amy31416
12-02-2010, 08:03 AM
refuted, lmao.

you nitwits haven't refuted a thing.

As I previously stated:

If simply one person alone is living in such unsanitary manners, it isn’t going to cause a problem, but when everyone does it, it does create issues.

In cities it will obviously create a problem, given that they don't have the information, land or anything else to deal with it. The fellow on 35 acres is not an issue for public health reasons so far as I can tell.

ARealConservative
12-02-2010, 08:09 AM
In cities it will obviously create a problem, given that they don't have the information, land or anything else to deal with it. The fellow on 35 acres is not an issue for public health reasons so far as I can tell.

ahh. so you are certain that he isn't doing this stuff on the very edge of his land then? Paid him a visit did you?

and why would anyone want to develop property next to some nut that can't take the time to build a simple leach field?

and why do we have to wait for over population to have some sensible policy dealing with pollution?


these threads are why I have no hope. the purists are just as idiotic as the neocons.

amy31416
12-02-2010, 08:15 AM
ahh. so you are certain that he isn't doing this stuff on the very edge of his land then? Paid him a visit did you?

and why would anyone want to develop property next to some nut that can't take the time to build a simple leach field?

and why do we have to wait for over population to have some sensible policy dealing with pollution?


these threads are why I have no hope. the purists are just as idiotic as the neocons.

Didn't you say earlier that he does have a leach field?

ARealConservative
12-02-2010, 08:28 AM
Didn't you say earlier that he does have a leach field?


I have no idea of his situation. All I said is I support basic zoning laws that require people handle their waste in a safe manner, so would have no problem with laws forcing him to have a leach field.

At that point, all the nutballs starting attacking the statist on board.

moostraks
12-02-2010, 08:30 AM
ahh. so you are certain that he isn't doing this stuff on the very edge of his land then? Paid him a visit did you?

and why would anyone want to develop property next to some nut that can't take the time to build a simple leach field?

and why do we have to wait for over population to have some sensible policy dealing with pollution?


these threads are why I have no hope. the purists are just as idiotic as the neocons.

Did you watch the video? It appears that the trailer is out in the property backed up to a woodlot. Second it sounds like they want sewer, which would mean link into the county line not a septic system. They never did clarify what he is currently doing-which could be using the holding tank on his current toilet and disposing or composting. An incinerating toilet would be much more cost effective and easier than your suggestion. They are also often frowned upon when the city is after money (sewer hook ups and monthly payments).

Furthermore the issue isn't stopping there as they want him to have running water and electricity. Would that be too invasive for you? (genuinely curious) Or does one also need running water and electricity to be sanitary?

ARealConservative
12-02-2010, 08:37 AM
Did you watch the video? It appears that the trailer is out in the property backed up to a woodlot. Second it sounds like they want sewer, which would mean link into the county line not a septic system. They never did clarify what he is currently doing-which could be using the holding tank on his current toilet and disposing or composting. An incinerating toilet would be much more cost effective and easier than your suggestion. They are also often frowned upon when the city is after money (sewer hook ups and monthly payments).

Furthermore the issue isn't stopping there as they want him to have running water and electricity. Would that be too invasive for you? (genuinely curious) Or does one also need running water and electricity to be sanitary?

I have no reason to watch the video. My comments were not originally directed at him specifically.

I’m the statist that supports local ordinances to require people to handle their waste matter in a safe manner. My entire point of this thread is to say that a passive leach field would require no electricity and as such a person could still live off the grid while not being a menace to those around him. I fully support such ordinances.

agitator
12-02-2010, 08:52 AM
38 acres! Can you imagine all the animal feces that much land must collect in a year? He'll need more than one leach field for all that!

moostraks
12-02-2010, 09:12 AM
I have no reason to watch the video. My comments were not originally directed at him specifically.

I’m the statist that supports local ordinances to require people to handle their waste matter in a safe manner. My entire point of this thread is to say that a passive leach field would require no electricity and as such a person could still live off the grid while not being a menace to those around him. I fully support such ordinances.

The article wasn't strictly regarding waste. It was regarding government mandating people have certain basic services for health and safety. You seem to be bitter that so many disagree with you and not interested in a discussion but stomping and complaining that a leach field is the acceptable manner to handle human waste for off grid. You appear unknowledgeable or unwilling to consider any alternative viewpoints. This is a typical attitude many take and make government oppressive and dictatorial. Thus the blowback for your attitude.

I don't think anyone likes being called a nutcase.

I think the current use of perfectly good drinking water for flushing pee and turds is ignorant and wasteful. This when so many communities are having water wars over water ownership.There are more ways to handle waste then the current manner put forth through local ordinances. By making people aware of issues they may be ignorant on then creative alternative solutions can be utilized.

Some properties cannot support a septic system. A 39 acre farm with one man utilizing a sawdust compost system would be perfectly sanitary. This solution is irregardless of results of a perc test not to mention the burden of construction and maintenance of a costly septic tank installation which in turn breaks down and can lead to an unhealthy, unsanitary situation for his neighbors. Furthermore, an incinerating system would be an ideal solution as well because it can run off propane and leaves nothing but ash.

Pericles
12-02-2010, 09:16 AM
.................................

Will Mr. Gates, and this benevolent dictator State freely let him go? Of course not. A State presupposes an involuntary state of affairs, and hence no one is allowed to leave the State (For then it would not be a monopoly in a given territory if persons, and entities could seceede from it (That would be called voluntary the opposite of a State)).

In any event, we didn't even need to delve into it to see the absurdity. The definitions themselves give clear inclination that a State can never be voluntary, and therefore your scenario is oxymoronical (A logical absurdity).

...................................

Therefore, we can conclude that there is no way to leave the state and form a voluntary whatever, so all this chat is theoretical cloud stuff. As it would be a requirement that whatever controlling entity there is give up control, and revolutionary activity would violate the NAP.

Seraphim
12-02-2010, 09:22 AM
ahh. so you are certain that he isn't doing this stuff on the very edge of his land then? Paid him a visit did you?

and why would anyone want to develop property next to some nut that can't take the time to build a simple leach field?

and why do we have to wait for over population to have some sensible policy dealing with pollution?


these threads are why I have no hope. the purists are just as idiotic as the neocons.

Really man?

If he takes a dump on the fringe of his property on someone else land, why can't this simply be resolved in a civil court with the plaintiff citing property rights infrigement?

We need to kick this guy off his land for something he MIGHT do because he does not want to be hooked up to public utilities?

And you call these so call "purists" idiots?

I'm a little baffled by the entire premise of your argument. Very...unthinking.

idirtify
12-02-2010, 09:43 AM
you nitwits haven't refuted a thing.


and why would anyone want to develop property next to some nut that can't take the time to build a simple leach field?


these threads are why I have no hope. the purists are just as idiotic as the neocons.


At that point, all the nutballs starting attacking the statist on board.




I have no reason to watch the video. My comments were not originally directed at him specifically.

I’m the statist that supports local ordinances to require people to handle their waste matter in a safe manner. My entire point of this thread is to say that a passive leach field would require no electricity and as such a person could still live off the grid while not being a menace to those around him. I fully support such ordinances.

Readers:

Observe the STATIST (self-admitted), in response to disagreements, immediately and repeatedly resorting to juvenile name-calling. This should be no surprise, since a STATIST initiating aggression is entirely typical and predictable. Initiating aggression is standard operating procedure for a STATIST. Oh, and it’s also not atypical for a STATIST like ArealConservative (this is not name-calling or ad hominem, since it was admitted) to demonstrate such fallacies as the presumption of guilt, such misperceptions as mistaking disagreements for attacks, and such unabashed STATISM as fully supporting bad laws.

Let’s not waste this valuable opportunity to observe the behavior of this STATIST and identify the key features of Statism. It is not every day that a user so flatly admits to being a STATIST and offers himself/herself up as an educational model of what NOT TO BE.

ProBlue33
12-02-2010, 09:43 AM
This thread illustrates why freedom in America is an illusion, the TSA, people being evicted from their own land and homeland security shutting down websites that are capitalistic, but some how supposedly steal other peoples money.

Gestapo type tactics seem to be the norm in the good old US of A these days.

How pathetic.

denison
12-02-2010, 11:13 AM
This thread illustrates why freedom in America is an illusion, the TSA, people being evicted from their own land and homeland security shutting down websites that are capitalistic, but some how supposedly steal other peoples money.

Gestapo type tactics seem to be the norm in the good old US of A these days.

How pathetic.

AmErIkA :rolleyes:

Anti Federalist
12-02-2010, 12:07 PM
This thread illustrates why freedom in America is an illusion, the TSA, people being evicted from their own land and homeland security shutting down websites that are capitalistic, but some how supposedly steal other peoples money.

Gestapo type tactics seem to be the norm in the good old US of A these days.

How pathetic.

Yup, and outside of small lunatic fringe of malcontents, rabble rousers and refuseniks, (that's us folks) the vast majority love it, support it and defend it.

ARealConservative
12-02-2010, 12:20 PM
I'm done with you interventionists.

I don't know all the facts in that case, and it isn't my government, so I'm not prone to intervene, unnlike the majority of you chiming in.

you live in my region, and I will happily vote to throw you off land if you are unwilling to find a means of handling human waste in a fashion the rest of us are comfortable with.

wouldn't lose a nights sleep over it either.

Brooklyn Red Leg
12-02-2010, 12:26 PM
I'm done with you interventionists.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/Brooklyn_Red_Leg/DemotivationalPoster-InigoMontoya.jpg


I don't know all the facts in that case, and it isn't my government, so I'm not prone to intervene, unlike the majority of you chiming in.

:confused:


you live in my region, and I will happily vote to throw you off land if you are unwilling to find a means of handling human waste in a fashion the rest of us are comfortable with.

wouldn't lose a nights sleep over it either.

:rolleyes:

Might I suggest you go post over at Hannity.com cause its apparent you are in the wrong place. Inquisition much?

aravoth
12-02-2010, 12:28 PM
I'm done with you interventionists.

I don't know all the facts in that case, and it isn't my government, so I'm not prone to intervene, unnlike the majority of you chiming in.

you live in my region, and I will happily vote to throw you off land if you are unwilling to find a means of handling human waste in a fashion the rest of us are comfortable with.

wouldn't lose a nights sleep over it either.

Yeah I don't like the way you live either, So I'll toss you off the land you own, and burn your god damn house to the ground, Why?

Because I fucking disaggree with the way you live.

Yeah, It'll violate every single natural right you have, but at least all the shitheads in the town I live in will be happy to see your wretched ass on the street. Then where are you gonna drop your turds off eh?

Pretty shitty thing for you to say man, no pun intended.

johnny.rebel
12-02-2010, 12:28 PM
I'm done with you interventionists.

I don't know all the facts in that case, and it isn't my government, so I'm not prone to intervene, unnlike the majority of you chiming in.

you live in my region, and I will happily vote to throw you off land if you are unwilling to find a means of handling human waste in a fashion the rest of us are comfortable with.

wouldn't lose a nights sleep over it either.

it's about time people take sides. i'm gonna help this guy from the tyrants.

Anti Federalist
12-02-2010, 12:34 PM
Yeah I don't like the way you live either, So I'll toss you off the land you own, and burn your god damn house to the ground, Why?

Because I fucking disaggree with the way you live.

Yeah, It'll violate every single natural right you have, but at least all the shitheads in the town I live in will be happy to see your wretched ass on the street. Then where are you gonna drop your turds off eh?

Pretty shitty thing for you to say man, no pun intended.

Yup, that ^^^

ARealConservative
12-02-2010, 12:39 PM
interventionism is a political term for significant activity undertaken to influence something not directly under its control.

a local government is a state and it does have the legal authority to implement ordinances. Any realistic constitutionalist would agree.

constitutionalists are statists by the way. Anybody that uses this forum in the manner it was originally intended would be rightly described as a statist.

so I'm honest about being a statist. I have no problem with local governments governing. Don't like it, change it legally, or vote with your feet.

but you people are most definitely interventionists by exerting pressure on this government to not govern the way its people wish.

maybe if you were as honest about your views as I as with mine, you wouldn't balk at this accurate descriptor.

Anti Federalist
12-02-2010, 12:46 PM
interventionism is a political term for significant activity undertaken to influence something not directly under its control.

a local government is a state and it does have the legal authority to implement ordinances. Any realistic constitutionalist would agree.

constitutionalists are statists by the way. Anybody that uses this forum in the manner it was originally intended would be rightly described as a statist.

so I'm honest about being a statist. I have no problem with local governments governing. Don't like it, change it legally, or vote with your feet.

but you people are most definitely interventionists by exerting pressure on this government to not govern the way its people wish.

maybe if you were as honest about your views as I as with mine, you wouldn't balk at this accurate descriptor.

Was anybody complaining?

Was anybody's property damaged in any way?

Was anybody's person damaged in any way?

As near as I can tell, nobody had a beef, but the government, nobody was missing out on charging this man money, but the government and nobody intervened, but the government.

pcosmar
12-02-2010, 01:02 PM
Was anybody complaining?

Was anybody's property damaged in any way?

Was anybody's person damaged in any way?

As near as I can tell, nobody had a beef, but the government, nobody was missing out on charging this man money, but the government and nobody intervened, but the government.

The Contractor
Hired by the Government (after certain kick-backs)
Paid by the government to build the system (that they undoubtedly lobbied for)

Saw this in the Keys also, (one of the reasons to sell my property)
The sewer contractor in collusion with developers, forced a lot of people out of affordable homes and neighborhoods so that they could replace them with High Dollar Condos.
:mad:

johnny.rebel
12-02-2010, 01:08 PM
I'm done with you interventionists.

I don't know all the facts in that case, and it isn't my government, so I'm not prone to intervene, unnlike the majority of you chiming in.

you live in my region, and I will happily vote to throw you off land if you are unwilling to find a means of handling human waste in a fashion the rest of us are comfortable with.

wouldn't lose a nights sleep over it either.
a real conservative would rather shit in his water than on the ground because he has been taught that it's healthier. when your county comes after you for not living up to their standards remember how you turned your back on this guy.

BenIsForRon
12-02-2010, 01:13 PM
All this dude needs is a composting toilet and some sawdust, and he's alright with me:

http://organicgarden.org.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/compost_toilet.jpg

Anti Federalist
12-02-2010, 01:15 PM
The Contractor
Hired by the Government (after certain kick-backs)
Paid by the government to build the system (that they undoubtedly lobbied for)

Saw this in the Keys also, (one of the reasons to sell my property)
The sewer contractor in collusion with developers, forced a lot of people out of affordable homes and neighborhoods so that they could replace them with High Dollar Condos.
:mad:

Yup, I saw the same thing on Vaca Key (Marathon) as well.

This trend culminated in the 2005 Kelo v New London SCROTUS decision that determined that government could, by it's power of eminent domain, seize private property, and then, not use it for a "public use" (a road, a school, a water plant) but turn it over to private developers all based on the proposition that these new "owners" will pay the local town more in tax dollars.

I know you probably know all this, I'm getting new folks up to speed.

pcosmar
12-02-2010, 01:17 PM
Well I do have a septic system, and a lagoon.
I also have an old fashion back up plan. (plan B)

http://jamadots.com/~pcosmar/photos/photogallery/24-outhouse_jpg.jpeg

Fully functional.
:D

Dr.3D
12-02-2010, 01:26 PM
Well I do have a septic system, and a lagoon.
I also have an old fashion back up plan. (plan B)

Fully functional.
:D

Works good, lasts a long time, and when necessary, can be moved to another location.

moostraks
12-02-2010, 01:33 PM
interventionism is a political term for significant activity undertaken to influence something not directly under its control.

a local government is a state and it does have the legal authority to implement ordinances. Any realistic constitutionalist would agree.

constitutionalists are statists by the way. Anybody that uses this forum in the manner it was originally intended would be rightly described as a statist.

so I'm honest about being a statist. I have no problem with local governments governing. Don't like it, change it legally, or vote with your feet.

but you people are most definitely interventionists by exerting pressure on this government to not govern the way its people wish.

maybe if you were as honest about your views as I as with mine, you wouldn't balk at this accurate descriptor.

You act like a petulant child with all your blustering and grousing. Some of us have a difference of opinion on what is behind the issue being discussed. Which if you would have taken the slightest amount of effort you would have listened/read the link provided. This is about dictatorial government demanding that people not tapped into the system are a danger to themselves. That not having electricity and running water along with a sewer connection is dangerous. All of which is fallacious and fearmongering. That is how governments control their citizenry.

You refuse to acknowledge that there may be more at force here. It matters not where the overreach is, bad government is bad government. Poor people without options that own property are often destroyed when they suffer in silence while opportunistic government agencies use their might to not only seize their property but then institutionalize them because they are concerned for their "safety".

Since you are in here slinging insults for disagreements it must be that you are directly threatened by this man's neglect, as an adjoing property owner or resident within this zoning area? Otherwise your opinion matters just as much as the rest of ours. Fear not I would have not interest in living near the likes of you nor the community you seem so interested in protecting. We do not share a common ground philosophically speaking.

The benefits of the internet is the capacity to link like minded individuals together for the purpose of creating a better community and shed light on that which usually operates in the shadows of a government run by the will of a select few. Maybe by taking this issue to the public some entrepreneurial individual will be able to present a decent proposal for this individual so he looses neither his chosen lifestyle nor his property but offers a solution that would otherwise not be considered were it not from the pressure currently being exerted on a system intent on seeing that everyone remain on the grid....

txaslftist
12-02-2010, 02:07 PM
Not sure what other ordinances he's breaking, but just living off the grid shouldn't be criminalized. OTOH, there more be more to the story than we are getting.

pcosmar
12-02-2010, 02:20 PM
Not sure what other ordinances he's breaking, but just living off the grid shouldn't be criminalized. OTOH, there more be more to the story than we are getting.

I'm sure there is. And I have seen it before. Elsewhere.

The Washington County Sewage Council
The Washington County Sewage Council (or WCSC) is a non-profit organization that serves over 42 municipalities in Washington County to ensure that Property Owners and Contractors in Washington County comply with PA State DEP (Department of Environmental Protection) regulations regarding the disposal of human waste.

Property Owners (Developers) and Contractors in collusion with the EPA.
Imagine that.
:(

ARealConservative
12-02-2010, 02:21 PM
The benefits of the internet is the capacity to link like minded individuals together for the purpose of creating a better community and shed light on that which usually operates in the shadows of a government run by the will of a select few. Maybe by taking this issue to the public some entrepreneurial individual will be able to present a decent proposal for this individual so he looses neither his chosen lifestyle nor his property but offers a solution that would otherwise not be considered were it not from the pressure currently being exerted on a system intent on seeing that everyone remain on the grid....


Some people on this forum were also using the power of the internet to call the local government and harass them. That is a clear cut example of interventionism.

amy31416
12-02-2010, 02:36 PM
Some people on this forum were also using the power of the internet to call the local government and harass them. That is a clear cut example of interventionism.

Everything we do here, then, is interventionism of one sort or another. If I called the TSA and complained about them patting down children--it's interventionism. If I try to put an end to the wars, it's interventionism. If I tried to help out that fellow William Williams who refuses to allow the electric co. to encroach on his property, it's interventionism. If the person in front of me in the grocery line is a dollar short on their bill, and I give the cashier a dollar to cover it, it's interventionism. If I donated to help victims of Katrina, it's interventionism. If I donated to Glen Bradley, it's interventionism.

I've done many of those things, so I guess I'm an interventionist. And if I had the cash right now, I'd probably try to help out the fellow in Indiana as well. I consider it to be backing up my principles with action, but I guess you see it negatively.

Helping out your fellow man makes you angry and accusatory?

moostraks
12-02-2010, 02:37 PM
Some people on this forum were also using the power of the internet to call the local government and harass them. That is a clear cut example of interventionism.

So you decided that was worthy of degrading anyone who disagrees with your opinion?

oyarde
12-02-2010, 02:41 PM
Everything we do here, then, is interventionism of one sort or another. If I called the TSA and complained about them patting down children--it's interventionism. If I try to put an end to the wars, it's interventionism. If I tried to help out that fellow William Williams who refuses to allow the electric co. to encroach on his property, it's interventionism. If the person in front of me in the grocery line is a dollar short on their bill, and I give the cashier a dollar to cover it, it's interventionism. If I donated to help victims of Katrina, it's interventionism. If I donated to Glen Bradley, it's interventionism.

I've done many of those things, so I guess I'm an interventionist. And if I had the cash right now, I'd probably try to help out the fellow in Indiana as well. I consider it to be backing up my principles with action, but I guess you see it negatively.

Helping out your fellow man makes you angry and accusatory?

Well said , helping each other out is a good thing , more of that , less govt . !

sailingaway
12-02-2010, 02:41 PM
Everything we do here, then, is interventionism of one sort or another. If I called the TSA and complained about them patting down children--it's interventionism. If I try to put an end to the wars, it's interventionism. If I tried to help out that fellow William Williams who refuses to allow the electric co. to encroach on his property, it's interventionism. If the person in front of me in the grocery line is a dollar short on their bill, and I give the cashier a dollar to cover it, it's interventionism. If I donated to help victims of Katrina, it's interventionism. If I donated to Glen Bradley, it's interventionism.

I've done many of those things, so I guess I'm an interventionist. And if I had the cash right now, I'd probably try to help out the fellow in Indiana as well. I consider it to be backing up my principles with action, but I guess you see it negatively.

Helping out your fellow man makes you angry and accusatory?

Activism is interventionism? We aren't compelling, just arguing.

amy31416
12-02-2010, 02:50 PM
Activism is interventionism? We aren't compelling, just arguing.

According to ARealConservative, I guess....I don't consider it to be so.

amy31416
12-02-2010, 02:58 PM
Well said , helping each other out is a good thing , more of that , less govt . !

Agreed.

I think it's possible that ARC has argued himself into a corner and is lashing out about anything at this point. It's pretty obvious that if the fellow in question is not contaminating his neighbors property or water resources, that the local government is in the wrong.

This is about helping people defend property rights, not about local governments being able to govern however they see fit. If we don't "intervene" and help guys like that out, it will probably effect all of us eventually--we don't live in a bubble.

Brooklyn Red Leg
12-02-2010, 03:01 PM
Some people on this forum were also using the power of the internet to call the local government and harass them. That is a clear cut example of interventionism.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/Brooklyn_Red_Leg/DemotivationalPoster-InigoMontoya.jpg

oyarde
12-02-2010, 03:02 PM
Agreed.

I think it's possible that ARC has argued himself into a corner and is lashing out about anything at this point. It's pretty obvious that if the fellow in question is not contaminating his neighbors property or water resources, that the local government is in the wrong.

This is about helping people defend property rights, not about local governments being able to govern however they see fit. If we don't "intervene" and help guys like that out, it will probably effect all of us eventually--we don't live in a bubble.

Not only would it eventually effect all of us , it is clearly wrong . That local govt. deserves all of the negativity they bring themselves with that action. Pretty lowlife too , picking on the old guy .

oyarde
12-02-2010, 03:03 PM
Hopefully Idirtify was not too busy today and had time to call them some more .

armstrong
12-02-2010, 03:09 PM
so I guess living on my own land, in a 5th wheel will soon be illegal, thats where this will end up if this kind of stuff continues. its not hard to dump your holding tanks. so you must I say must have an electric bill a phone bill, pay as much tax as possible, pay sewer bills and water bills. oh and I soon cannot collect rain water for my garden.

oyarde
12-02-2010, 03:11 PM
so I guess living on my own land, in a 5th wheel will soon be illegal, thats where this will end up if this kind of stuff continues. its not hard to dump your holding tanks. so you must I say must have an electric bill a phone bill, pay as much tax as possible, pay sewer bills and water bills. oh and I soon cannot collect rain water for my garden.

Well , they may allow you to continue rain water usage as long as they can figure out what they feel is an appropriate tax . :)

tremendoustie
12-02-2010, 03:20 PM
Interventionism is a poor choice for the US military, firstly because they're horrible at making correct moral judgements, but also because people are being compelled to pay them.

If private individuals want to self-fund and go off and help stop an abuser somewhere, I've got no problem with that.

I certainly think calling local bureaucrats who are attacking innocent people is completely warranted.

amy31416
12-02-2010, 03:21 PM
so I guess living on my own land, in a 5th wheel will soon be illegal, thats where this will end up if this kind of stuff continues. its not hard to dump your holding tanks. so you must I say must have an electric bill a phone bill, pay as much tax as possible, pay sewer bills and water bills. oh and I soon cannot collect rain water for my garden.

Collecting rain water is already illegal in some places.

tremendoustie
12-02-2010, 03:21 PM
Collecting rain water is already illegal in some places.

As insane as it is, yes, that's true.

idirtify
12-02-2010, 03:33 PM
I'm done with you interventionists.

I don't know all the facts in that case, and it isn't my government, so I'm not prone to intervene, unnlike the majority of you chiming in.

you live in my region, and I will happily vote to throw you off land if you are unwilling to find a means of handling human waste in a fashion the rest of us are comfortable with.

wouldn't lose a nights sleep over it either.

Now observe the DoubleSpeak of the STATIST who supports laws that evict landowners from their private property solely because they don’t handle their poo “in a fashion the rest…are comfortable with”, yet characterizes those who disagree as the “interventionists”. Just like Statism, reverses blame and switches labels.

idirtify
12-02-2010, 03:48 PM
interventionism is a political term for significant activity undertaken to influence something not directly under its control.

a local government is a state and it does have the legal authority to implement ordinances. Any realistic constitutionalist would agree.

constitutionalists are statists by the way. Anybody that uses this forum in the manner it was originally intended would be rightly described as a statist.

so I'm honest about being a statist. I have no problem with local governments governing. Don't like it, change it legally, or vote with your feet.

but you people are most definitely interventionists by exerting pressure on this government to not govern the way its people wish.

maybe if you were as honest about your views as I as with mine, you wouldn't balk at this accurate descriptor.

To “intervene” in this context is to use non-consensual government force to “come between so as to prevent or alter a result or course of events” and/or to “delay or obstruct something being done.” Therefore, STATIST, since YOU are advocating the local government to intervene into this guy’s property rights, YOU are the one advocating intervention.

What is certainly NOT “interventionism” in any way is “exerting pressure” against “government to not govern the way its people wish”. That’s getting the cart before the horse. If you wish to maintain your backwards argument, you might as well claim that self-defense is initiated aggression and the initiator of aggression is not the aggressor.

idirtify
12-02-2010, 03:50 PM
Was anybody complaining?

Was anybody's property damaged in any way?

Was anybody's person damaged in any way?

As near as I can tell, nobody had a beef, but the government, nobody was missing out on charging this man money, but the government and nobody intervened, but the government.

It’s been fairly obvious that the STATIST knows no details, and is only presuming guilt over innocence; quite stereotypical for a STATIST.

moostraks
12-02-2010, 03:50 PM
Everything we do here, then, is interventionism of one sort or another. If I called the TSA and complained about them patting down children--it's interventionism. If I try to put an end to the wars, it's interventionism. If I tried to help out that fellow William Williams who refuses to allow the electric co. to encroach on his property, it's interventionism. If the person in front of me in the grocery line is a dollar short on their bill, and I give the cashier a dollar to cover it, it's interventionism. If I donated to help victims of Katrina, it's interventionism. If I donated to Glen Bradley, it's interventionism.

I've done many of those things, so I guess I'm an interventionist. And if I had the cash right now, I'd probably try to help out the fellow in Indiana as well. I consider it to be backing up my principles with action, but I guess you see it negatively.

Helping out your fellow man makes you angry and accusatory?

I think it is pretty sad. Glad you folks are pointing out the ridiculous nature of ARealConservative's stance. I am having some wicked nausea today and not really up for the argument esp. for someone who wants to make slurs and run without genuine respect for the discussion at hand.

Kudos to those of you who put the pressure on the local governments as well. They are the ones who often commit the greatest atrocities because people don't feel motivated since it isn't in their backyard. With all the centralization TPTB are attempting to create, this control and fearmongering affects us all. It is an infection that spreads like wildfire from city to state to federal levels all for the health and safety of its citizens of course.:rolleyes:

idirtify
12-02-2010, 03:52 PM
when your county comes after you for not living up to their standards remember how you turned your back on this guy.

Excellent warning! Martin Niemoeller would be proud of you.

idirtify
12-02-2010, 04:01 PM
All this dude needs is a composting toilet and some sawdust, and he's alright with me:


Many people in other countries make biogas out of all their waste (livestock and kitchen and bathroom waste), and then they COOK with it. Basically, they build a big “fart machine” (biogas digester) that makes the methane they light with a match to cook food with. I wonder if Madison County would approve of that. :eek:

idirtify
12-02-2010, 04:02 PM
Works good, lasts a long time, and when necessary, can be moved to another location.

let's put one on wheels and include a shovel.

pcosmar
12-02-2010, 04:06 PM
let's put one on wheels and include a shovel.

Not an issue. The neighbors don't bury theirs.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3137/2775771624_8dd40bf103_z.jpg

;)

idirtify
12-02-2010, 04:09 PM
Some people on this forum were also using the power of the internet to call the local government and harass them. That is a clear cut example of interventionism.

OK boys and girls, for today’s STATIST lesson, we learn another new meaning: “intervention” means “questioning intervention”. :confused:

MyLibertyStuff
12-02-2010, 04:31 PM
INCREDIBLE!!! Posting all over

Anti Federalist
12-02-2010, 08:32 PM
OK boys and girls, for today’s STATIST lesson, we learn another new meaning: “intervention” means “questioning intervention”. :confused:

War is Peace.

tropicangela
12-06-2010, 01:05 PM
The govt can't have this guy not contributing to the tainted sewage and water supply...


(CBS/AP) A vast array of pharmaceuticals - including antibiotics, anti-convulsants, mood stabilizers and sex hormones - have been found in the drinking water supplies of at least 41 million Americans, an Associated Press investigation shows.

How do the drugs get into the water?

CBS News correspondent Nancy Cordes reports that, according to the AP study, it's the fault of every American who ever took a pill.

When people take medicine some gets absorbed by the body, but the leftovers end up getting flushed down the toilet and into the water supply.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/10/health/main3920454.shtml

Promontorium
12-06-2010, 08:20 PM
:( This thread gave me a sad because this man was living what many of us (me) only speak about, but the government is winning.

:/ This thread gave me a peak of interest because Austrian and the Anarchists were somewhat questioned on their irregularities.

:( This thread gave me another sad because that Conservative fellow is bouncing all over the hard surfaces in the room like one of those wacky misshapen rubber balls.

idirtify
12-06-2010, 09:31 PM
The govt can't have this guy not contributing to the tainted sewage and water supply...


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/10/health/main3920454.shtml

Excellent point. And one person spreading his waste out on a 40-acre field would surely biodegrade any excreted pharmaceutical prescription before it got into the watershed.

tropicangela
12-06-2010, 09:57 PM
Commenter said this on youtube:


twstoner
6 hours ago
This was started by an attorney who owns adjacent property.

There is a commissioners meeting in the morning in Anderson, addressing this issue. Jeff Hardin is the comm. in control in this district, I THINK. The Atty's name is Leann Kirkwood. I hope this helps, please let me know if their is anything I can do to help.

idirtify
12-06-2010, 10:36 PM
Commenter said this on youtube:

Good work. That probably means I was lied to on the phone about no upcoming meeting.