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Reason
11-29-2010, 09:46 PM
WTF are people basing all this fearmongering off of?

Did I miss some vast multitude of relevant incidents that would justify this?

Please fill me in...

aravoth
11-29-2010, 09:54 PM
WTF are people basing all this fearmongering off of?

Did I miss some vast multitude of relevant incidents that would justify this?

Please fill me in...

This lady I work with is bat-shit insane, I could go into detail but I am scared she'll send her cult over to my house and have me sacrificed to whatever it is she worships. Anyway....

She went on a 3 hour rant yesterday about MOOSLEMS! And by the time she got done, she had the new girl thinking that Sharia law was days away, and if you didn't comply they'd force you to wear an exploding burka in a church, during mass.

I have no fucking clue where this irrational fear came from, but it is real.

The fear part I mean, as for the rest? It's all bullshit.

oyarde
11-29-2010, 09:57 PM
This lady I work with is bat-shit insane, I could go into detail but I am scared she'll send her cult over to my house and have me sacrificed to whatever it is she worships. Anyway....

She went on a 3 hour rant yesterday about MOOSLEMS! And by the time she got done, she had the new girl thinking that Sharia law was days away, and if you didn't comply they'd force you to wear an exploding burka in a church, during mass.

I have no fucking clue where this irrational fear came from, but it is real.

The fear part I mean, as for the rest? It's all bullshit.

I am curious about what she worships . I never figured the pagans to be scared of Islam .....

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 09:57 PM
There's a reason for concern about Sharia Law.


British Pupils Taught to Carry Out Shariah Law Punishments
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=269901

Islamic Court Says Men Can Legally Beat Wives and Children | Sharia Law
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=268320

UK's Islam Channel Censured for Guests Advocating Marital Rape
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=268890

Idealized Islam: Interview With Rev. Elijah Abraham
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=266428

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Islam incompatible with Libertarian ideals
http://www.libertarianrepublican.net/2010/04/ayaan-hirsi-ali-islam-incompatible-with.html

Canada National Security: Muslim 'Parallel Society' within Canada a Threat
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=269167

Son of Hamas co-founder Warns the US: Muslims Want 'Global Islamic State'; US Fooled
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=258525

"Islamists" Denounce Capitalism, Call for Global Caliphate
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=201135

Federal Judge: Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) Linked to Hamas
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=270237

phx420
11-29-2010, 10:06 PM
Frankrep, i fucking hate you

Kotin
11-29-2010, 10:07 PM
WTF are people basing all this fearmongering off of?

Did I miss some vast multitude of relevant incidents that would justify this?

Please fill me in...

islamophobia.

Dr.3D
11-29-2010, 10:08 PM
Frankrep, i fucking hate you
Have a nice day.

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 10:09 PM
islamophobia.

Islamofascism :p

BlackTerrel
11-29-2010, 10:10 PM
Are there really that many people worried about it?

I haven't heard much discussion other than that stupid law in Oklahoma...

pcosmar
11-29-2010, 10:11 PM
islamophobia.

Dingdingding!!!
We have a winnah.

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 10:19 PM
Frankrep, i fucking hate you
You're welcome.

phx420
11-29-2010, 10:20 PM
people like you are the reason i left the church, i just thought you should know that

Monarchist
11-29-2010, 10:21 PM
Frank, all those example of Islamification you listed are in Britain and Europe, which are places most susceptible to having Sharia imposed on them, by a large number of Moslems desiring to do so, because their people are mostly complacent and emasculated. I, for one, don't see that happening here in America because, well, we have guns and aren't wont to take that kind of crap.

Brian4Liberty
11-29-2010, 10:25 PM
Frankrep, i fucking hate you

Someone is celebrating Festivus early this year. You may need to move over to this thread:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=270578

phx420
11-29-2010, 10:27 PM
haha too late

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 10:31 PM
people like you are the reason i left the church, i just thought you should know that


John 14:6 (Jesus Speaking) "I am the way, the truth, and the life: No man cometh unto the father, but by me".

Hate me all you want. Jesus would call Islam a false religion.



John 15:18 (Jesus Speaking) "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.


Frankrep, i fucking hate you

Reason
11-29-2010, 10:33 PM
Can we keep this thread focused on the OP question please...

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 10:41 PM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:RhGVEY7q4rK-WM:http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/rifqa.jpg&t=1

Columbus, Ohio:

Christian Teen Flees Home, Says She Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father
Rifqa Bary Turned Up in Florida Pastor's Home Weeks After Leaving Ohio Home

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=8303567


Background...

Rifqa Bary in Danger Again
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/2200-rifqa-bary-in-danger-again

Another Honor Killing?
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/2133-another-honor-killing

Rifqa Bary Must Return to Ohio
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/2092-rifqa-bary-must-return-to-ohio

Rifqa Bary to Stay in Florida Temporarily
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/1826

Rifqa Bary's Fate To Be Decided
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/1808

Rifqa Bary Safe for Now
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/crime/1714

Save Rifqa Bary From an Honor Killing
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/crime/1692

jmdrake
11-29-2010, 10:45 PM
Islamofascism :p

I hope you realize that "Islamofascism" is a made up word that means absolutely nothing. Not unless you an actually find some Islamic leader espousing the economic ideals of Benito Mussolini. There are Islamic marxist terrorist and the U.S. government backs them.

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 10:48 PM
I hope you realize that "Islamofascism" is a made up word that means absolutely nothing. Not unless you an actually find some Islamic leader espousing the economic ideals of Benito Mussolini. There are Islamic marxist terrorist and the U.S. government backs them.

"Islamophobia" is just as silly.

Kotin
11-29-2010, 10:52 PM
"Islamophobia" is just as silly.

sadly, it's not.

pcosmar
11-29-2010, 10:52 PM
Jesus would call Islam a false religion.
Perhaps, He called out the religious leaders of his own religion. Called them false teachers.

He also promised that the other son of Abraham (Ishmael) would become a great nation.
;)

phx420
11-29-2010, 10:55 PM
edited for stupidity

heavenlyboy34
11-29-2010, 10:55 PM
Ironically, if Sharia law WERE enforced here, the FED would be put out of business (Sharia forbids usury). OP, tell the fearmongers that their fears are not exactly well founded. ;)

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 10:55 PM
Perhaps, He called out the religious leaders of his own religion. Called them false teachers.

He also promised that the other son of Abraham (Ishmael) would become a great nation. ;)

Either Jesus is the only way to God or Jesus is a liar. Take your pick.

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 10:57 PM
Ironically, if Sharia law WERE enforced here, the FED would be put out of business (Sharia forbids usury). OP, tell the fearmongers that their fears are not exactly well founded. ;)

heavenlyboy34 wants to be ruled by strict religious law! :eek:

Aren't you an atheist or something? LOL

Kotin
11-29-2010, 10:57 PM
Either Jesus is the only way to God or Jesus is a liar. Take your pick.


That is full of logical fallacies and is even more full of fail

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 10:58 PM
Either Jesus is the only way to God or Jesus is a liar. Take your pick.


That is full of logical fallacies and even more full of fail.


John 14:6 (Jesus Speaking) "I am the way, the truth, and the life: No man cometh unto the father, but by me".

Kotin says Jesus is a liar. That's fine.

Kotin
11-29-2010, 11:00 PM
Kotin says Jesus is a liar. That's fine.

Wow.. You always set the bar low.. And you always manage to find a way to go even further.


Frank you have a lot of deprogramming to do.. A lot of learning.. And frankly, a lot of growing up.

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 11:02 PM
Wow.. You always set the bar low.. And you always manage to find a way go even further.

Frank you have a lot of deprogramming to do.. A lot of learning.. And frankly, a lot of growing up.

Christian deprogramming, you mean. Brainwashed by Christianity.

Kotin
11-29-2010, 11:03 PM
Christian deprogramming, you mean. Brainwashed by Christianity.

There you go again.. Straw-manning like a child.

pcosmar
11-29-2010, 11:03 PM
Either Jesus is the only way to God or Jesus is a liar. Take your pick.

That is not the question,
Reaching and teaching is best done without the threat of violence.
I do not live in fear. there are far greater threats to the Constitution of this country than Islam.

I am far more concerned with secular humanism (That is already well established) than I am with Islam. And in the fight against a satanic One World Government, I may like to have them as an ally.
;)

heavenlyboy34
11-29-2010, 11:04 PM
heavenlyboy34 wants to be ruled by strict religious law! :eek:

Aren't you an atheist or something? LOL

I wasn't advocating religious law, just pointing something out. Go back and re-read my post, please.

No, I'm not an atheist. I shun organized religion for the most part, but there are pearls of wisdom and enlightenment in most traditions. Jesus was anti-state, like yours truly, FYI. I would highly regard him if I ever met him in person. :cool::D I would call myself "Unitarian Universalist" or something like that if I wanted a label (I'm not fond of labels).

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 11:06 PM
John 14:6 (Jesus Speaking) "I am the way, the truth, and the life: No man cometh unto the father, but by me".


There you go again.. Straw-manning like a child.

Is Jesus right or wrong? Is Jesus the only way?

heavenlyboy34
11-29-2010, 11:06 PM
wow.. You always set the bar low.. And you always manage to find a way to go even further.


frank you have a lot of deprogramming to do.. A lot of learning.. And frankly, a lot of growing up.

+10000000000

phx420
11-29-2010, 11:08 PM
bro, the message of any religion should be peace and your entirely too antagonistic.

amy31416
11-29-2010, 11:09 PM
Kotin says Jesus is a liar. That's fine.

If you're around 12 years old and know nothing outside of what your church has taught you, your mode of "thought" is understandable.

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 11:12 PM
Frank you have a lot of deprogramming to do.. A lot of learning.. And frankly, a lot of growing up.
Kotin, Define Exactly what you mean by "deprogramming."

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 11:13 PM
If you're around 12 years old and know nothing outside of what your church has taught you, your mode of "thought" is understandable.

All religions lead to heaven? Sweet.
Christianity lied to me. amy31416, you have enlightened me.

jmdrake
11-29-2010, 11:14 PM
"Islamophobia" is just as silly.

Not really. Break Islamophobia in two. "Islam" and "fear". There are people who fear Islam. You seem to be one of them. You may feel your fear is justified, but it's still fear. On the flipside Islamo fascism just doesn't exist. Fascists are corporatists. There are Islamo marxists. Considering how the JBS is so worried about marxism I'd think you'd be up on that. ;) But perhaps you're too worried about a neocon made up word to even see what you of all people should be the first to pick up on.

Anyway, the whole "Islam is a false religion, salvation is only through Jesus" argument applies as equally to Judaism as it does to Islam.

jmdrake
11-29-2010, 11:15 PM
Is Jesus right or wrong? Is Jesus the only way?

That's irrelevant to the discussion. You aren't following Jesus' way of evangelism right now. The primary "false religion" at the time of Christ was the religion of the Samaritans. It was a mixture of paganism and Judaism. Yet rather than fearmonger about Samaritans, Jesus upheld one as one of the most cherished object lessons of all time. (The story of the Good Samaritan). When Jesus met the Samaritan woman at the well, He carried on a non-condemning conversation with her. Only we she asked about which religion was correct did He go there.

pcosmar
11-29-2010, 11:16 PM
FrankRep

When I go to war with the NWO I want Kotin on one side of me and ibaghdadi on the other. And the sons of Abraham will meet the Father of Lies.
Straight up. and with God on our side.
:cool:

amy31416
11-29-2010, 11:17 PM
All religions lead to heaven? Sweet.
Christianity lied to me. amy31416, you have enlightened me.

I doubt you're capable of being enlightened.

BlackTerrel
11-29-2010, 11:29 PM
Going back to the OP's original post? Is this really something that a lot of people are worried about?

Maybe I've been too busy lately but other than that law in Oklahoma I haven't heard many people talking about this. With all the dumb shit my friends talk about this isn't top of the agenda.

Is this really an issue people are discussing?

pcosmar
11-29-2010, 11:33 PM
Going back to the OP's original post? Is this really something that a lot of people are worried about?

Maybe I've been too busy lately but other than that law in Oklahoma I haven't heard many people talking about this. With all the dumb shit my friends talk about this isn't top of the agenda.

Is this really an issue people are discussing?

It is an issue that some are pushing.
It is a threat that does not exist.

It is misdirection.
:(

Kotin
11-29-2010, 11:35 PM
Going back to the OP's original post? Is this really something that a lot of people are worried about?

Maybe I've been too busy lately but other than that law in Oklahoma I haven't heard many people talking about this. With all the dumb shit my friends talk about this isn't top of the agenda.

Is this really an issue people are discussing?

Divide and Conquer.. That's what it is.

FrankRep
11-29-2010, 11:41 PM
Not really. Break Islamophobia in two. "Islam" and "fear". There are people who fear Islam. You seem to be one of them. You may feel your fear is justified, but it's still fear.

I don't "fear" Islam. I reject the teachings of Islam, Sharia Law, and I certainly reject certain radicalized groups who want to force that lifestyle on others.


On the flipside Islamo fascism just doesn't exist. Fascists are corporatists.

I was joking by using the term "Islamofascism" because I still think "Islamophobia" is a silly term.


There are Islamo marxists. Considering how the JBS is so worried about marxism I'd think you'd be up on that. ;)

Dude, I am aware. I'm well aware these so-called radicalized "Islamic" groups are following Karl Marx rather than the Koran. They merely use "Islam" as a front.


But perhaps you're too worried about a neocon made up word to even see what you of all people should be the first to pick up on.

Being anti-Sharia Law and anti-Islam doesn't make you a Neocon.



Anyway, the whole "Islam is a false religion, salvation is only through Jesus" argument applies as equally to Judaism as it does to Islam.

This is true. According to Jesus, he's the ONLY way to God. Either Jesus is the Messiah or he's a liar. The Jewish leaders in the Bible thought he was a liar.

Tinnuhana
11-29-2010, 11:45 PM
People have always used religion as an excuse to exercise power over others. That doesn't negate the religion; it just points out how it is "used".Christians have been killing each other for years (Northern ireland) and the Sunnis and Shi'ites do the same. Power, even in the name of the Prince of Peace, corrupts. "And (the dark lord) gave nine rings to men; men who above all else desire power."
Muhammad was upset with all the worship of trivial false gods he saw his people worshipping instead of the God of Abraham and Ishmael.Most of his rants about "infidels" were reserved for them.
Jesus went after the hypocrisy he saw in Judea (calling the leadership "vipers", etc.) and gathered an inner group of twelve "apostles", which included one insurgent, Simon the zealot (zealots perpetrated a lot of terrorist acts against the Roman occupiers).
Too bad many Christians are concerned that their faith can't stand up in the free marketplace of ideas without state help. Do they think the "arm of the Lord" is that short?
Sorry for the ramble, but that's how I see it.
The "Truth shall set you free"; but "Truth is treason in the empire of lies" that sees all things in terms of power to be earned, brokered or usurped.

phx420
11-30-2010, 12:15 AM
Your backwards and extremist Frank. I respect your right to speak your mind, but you would have no problems if America became a place where I would be persecuted for speaking my mind. That's apparent.

CheezItsRule
11-30-2010, 12:23 AM
First of all, I am NO Islamophobe.

Secondly, I can't understand why more people on this forum aren't more offended by this. Aren't we trying to preserve the American way of life and government here? I am offended that Muslims would even bring this shit up. If you move to this country, expect to live under this US federal & state laws. What the hell happened to the separation of church & state?

So where does this lead us? Can Orthodox Jews get away with revenge killings because they live under Old Testament Laws (Numbers 35:16-35:21)?

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm getting carried away but I can't stand people who immigrate here & have a total lack of respect for the US.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 12:25 AM
Your backwards and extremist Frank. I respect your right to speak your mind, but you would have no problems if America became a place where I would be persecuted for speaking my mind. That's apparent.

You're spreading lies about me. I'm a Constitutionalist and I feel you have the right to say anything you want. I don't support a "Theocracy" ruled by any religion. Power corrupts and that includes Governments and organized religions.


This is extremist:

Christian Woman Sentenced to Death in Pakistan for Blasphemy Against Mohammed
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=268158

phx420
11-30-2010, 12:32 AM
Sharia law doesn't undermine American Law, the position of people like Frank is that Muslims are trying to infiltrate your government and instituting Sharia Law. I was born a Christian in this country, lost millions in this recession and im treated like a second class citizen whenever I express concern about the future of this country. Im in awe of Ron Paul and I joined this forum to learn more about libertarianism, and its being overshadowed by Frank's quickness to exploit any shortcomings of islamic people.

CheezItsRule
11-30-2010, 12:41 AM
Sharia law doesn't undermine American Law

There are already two sets of laws out there. A set for the rich & a set for the poor. The last thing this country needs is another set of laws for another group of people.

phx420
11-30-2010, 12:43 AM
There are already two sets of laws out there. A set for the rich & a set for the poor. The last thing this country needs is another set of laws for another group of people.

Its been established for centuries, its a way of life, no one is pushing any doctrines to establish an official Islam in United States, that suggestion is absurd.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 12:43 AM
people like Frank is that Muslims are trying to infiltrate your government and instituting Sharia Law.

I've targeted three explicit organizations that want Sharia Law imposed on the world. Many more exist.

Hizb ut-Tahrir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir), Muslim Brotherhood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood), and Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas)

Recently the Council on American-Islamic Relations (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=270237) (CAIR) is being exposed as having connections to these Islamic groups.


Canada National Security: Muslim 'Parallel Society' within Canada a Threat
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=269167

Son of Hamas co-founder Warns the US: Muslims Want 'Global Islamic State'; US Fooled
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=258525

phx420
11-30-2010, 12:46 AM
Bro, read Anne Frank.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 01:07 AM
Bro, read Anne Frank.
I have. Being against Sharia Law doesn't make me a National Socialist (Nazi). I support small Government, the Constitution, and states rights in case the Federal Government gets corrupt. Power corrupts governments and organized religions.

phx420
11-30-2010, 01:10 AM
but not your religion, i get it

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 01:12 AM
but not your religion, i get it

No, you don't. Read my previous statement.


You're spreading lies about me. I'm a Constitutionalist and I feel you have the right to say anything you want. I don't support a "Theocracy" ruled by any religion. Power corrupts and that includes Governments and organized religions.

Brian4Liberty
11-30-2010, 01:16 AM
Im in awe of Ron Paul and I joined this forum to learn more about libertarianism...

This forum will show you what a variety of people actually support and mostly agree with Ron Paul. It's not exclusively Libertarian or libertarian.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 01:17 AM
This forum will show you what a variety of people actually support and mostly agree with Ron Paul. It's not exclusively Libertarian or libertarian.
I'm a Constitutionalist, not a Libertarian.

Promontorium
11-30-2010, 02:27 AM
This is one of those instances where perspectives distort distances, and labels distort the truth. Sadly no one replied to my thread on this problem. :(

I'm actually disturbed by that guy who claimed FrankRep was preventing him from learning more about libertarianism. Heres a good lesson 1 for you: No one's opinion harms you. If you fail in your own efforts, scapegoating a person you disagree with is absolutely counter-productive, if anything, disagreement forces you to think, whereas blind agreement will never lead you to knowledge. But I digress.

There are all kinds of people on RPF. Thinking Islamic law shouldn't exist in America isn't implicity "Islamophobic" (which really is a stupid name, do you anti-zionists want to be called Judeophobic?) But this dialog is pointless, because then the other side thinks that person is pro-Sharia law. Nuetrality is a tough gig here.

I agree with FrankRep, no religious law should exist. Is the threat of Sharia law being blown up, especially in America? Probably, but that's none of your damn business. Sharia Law isn't a boogey man, real people die unjust deaths from it, maybe they felt good dying, I don't know, but you haven't a leg to stand on trying to tell other people how much time and effort they should spend worrying about things, free will, individual rights, and all that crap.

Reason
11-30-2010, 02:31 AM
this thread went downhill pretty quick....

GreenLP
11-30-2010, 02:32 AM
WTF are people basing all this fearmongering off of?

Did I miss some vast multitude of relevant incidents that would justify this?

Please fill me in...
Southern states are fully of God-fearing white people. Notice I emphasized the word "fearing." When you live with a lot of fear, it makes you think and do a lot of irrational things.

Dripping Rain
11-30-2010, 02:48 AM
As a Christian im ashamed to see some elements reminiscent of the Spanish inquisition in this thread and others.
Heck Im ashamed of myself I admit because I just realized that Ive done something very similar last night
all while being a Friedrich hayek reader well aware of the concept of the "negative" :(

crazyfacedjenkins
11-30-2010, 03:26 AM
Sharia Law?? I'm more worried about Christians, they have quite a violent history in this country. Christianity has set a precedents as the religion of hate in the US. It will take a long time for dem Muslims to catch up.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uYhwjSHoQ3k/SW8w8sLTdTI/AAAAAAAABMQ/nLU9bKRDR7M/s400/kkk_1925.jpg

Imperial
11-30-2010, 03:47 AM
Either Jesus is the only way to God or Jesus is a liar. Take your pick.

See this:
(http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~shagin/logfal-pbc-eitheror.htm)


An either/or fallacy occurs when a speaker makes a claim (usually a premise in an otherwise valid deductive argument) that presents an artificial range of choices. For instance, he may suggest that there are only two choices possible, when three or more really exist. Those who use an either/or fallacy try to force their audience to accept a conclusion by presenting only two possible options, one of which is clearly more desirable.


FOR YOUR INFORMATION

These tactics are purposefully designed to seduce those who are not well informed on a given topic. A clever writer or speaker may use the either/or fallacy to make his idea look better when compared to an even worse one. This type of selective contrast is also a form of stacking the deck. This type of argument violates the principles of civil discourse: arguments should enlighten people, making them more knowledgeable and more capable of acting intelligently and independently.


Or check out this article (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/paradoxical-truth/?ref=opinion) from a philosophy professor


So let’s come to back to the Liar Paradox. Which of the two kinds of paradox is this? Can we accept the conclusion, or must there be something wrong with the argument? Well, notice that the conclusion of the argument is a bald contradiction: the claim on the blackboard is both true and false. Now, the principle of noncontradiction says that you can never accept a contradiction. And the principle of noncontradiction has been high orthodoxy in Western philosophy since Aristotle mounted a spirited defense of it in his “Metaphysics” — so orthodox that no one seems to have felt the need to mount a sustained defense of it ever since. So the paradox must be of the second kind: there must be something wrong with the argument. Or must there?

Not according to a contentious new theory that’s currently doing the rounds. According to this theory, some contradictions are actually true, and the conclusion of the Liar Paradox is a paradigm example of one such contradiction. The theory calls a true contradiction a dialetheia (Greek: “di” = two (way); “aletheia” = truth), and the view itself is called dialetheism. One thing that drives the view is that cogent diagnoses of what is wrong with the Liar argument are seemingly impossible to find. Suppose you say, for example, that paradoxical sentences of this kind are simply meaningless (or neither true nor false, or some such). Then what if Professor Greene had written on the board:

Everything written on the board in Room 33 is either false or meaningless.

If this were true or false, we would be in the same bind as before. And if it’s meaningless, then it’s either false or meaningless, so it’s true. We are back with a contradiction. This sort of situation (often called a strengthened paradox) affects virtually all suggested attempts to explain what has gone wrong with the reasoning in the Liar Paradox.


Either way we are left with plenty of mysteries (the Holy Trinity anybody?) that God has left unrevealed to us, so I think the above idea is really the most feasible under those circumstances.

Nevertheless, I do understand the concern about sharia law. Yes, it is better on economics than many Western sources you will read. Yes, on some civil liberties issues it can be pretty bad.

However, it seems that the system of common law we have has created the framework whereby such concerns can be alleviated. First, you may note that in Heller v District of Columbia or McDonald v City of Chicago attorney Alan Gura actively scouted out plaintiffs for his case in order to create a reason to challenge the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. A court does not rule on an issue until it comes up; we may assume that if such a problem emerges in Oklahoma, a relevant court will have the ability to act.

nobody's_hero
11-30-2010, 04:34 AM
So, is this thread about a particular religion, or is this thread about theocracy in general?

Are we going to not vote for the politician who admits he's a Christian, however has given no indication that he'd force his beliefs on others through government, and yet not hold same skepticism about Muslims?

I theorize that every religion goes through phases. The Christians have tried to use government to do their bidding, and yes, that was a bloody time in human history. But you'd have to be a fool to ignore the fact that nearly every major Muslim nation in the middle east bases their laws on religious doctrine, still today.

That isn't a huge problem to me. They're sovereign nations and they can impose whatever laws [on themselves] they see fit. (Personally, I think it'd be kind of interesting to see how a nation so quick to stone its women for showing their faces manages to defy Darwinism after killing off its females, but hey, that's just my cynical side talking.) We live in the age of travel, however, and people aren't as keen to keep to themselves as they were in the past.


Frank, all those example of Islamification you listed are in Britain and Europe, which are places most susceptible to having Sharia imposed on them, by a large number of Moslems desiring to do so, because their people are mostly complacent and emasculated. I, for one, don't see that happening here in America because, well, we have guns and aren't wont to take that kind of crap.

There was a time when this may have been true. Apparently, I am not looking at the American people through the same lens as you. Last time I checked, we have selective civil rights lawyers who will rush to the aid of minorities whenever they feel as though their rights have been violated, but if a member of a majority has his/her rights violated, well, it's just assumed that they can endure it, I suppose. Add to those selective lawyers the backing of millions of selectively-apologist liberals (you know, people who have never owned slaves but senselessly feel like they owe President Obama his vote so to reverse the course of an unchangeable history) in this country, and you have . . . 'Britain, and Europe.'

Brooklyn Red Leg
11-30-2010, 05:01 AM
Seriously, Frank, let's worry about the straight up regular Fascism here in the US before we start chasing the boogeyman of 'islamofascism'. We have to keep our eye on the ball cause we're down to playing for all the marbles. Nuts who preach/teach/practice honor killing of women, stoning gays etc and other whacked out religious beliefs are a small minority.

crazyfacedjenkins
11-30-2010, 05:25 AM
Seriously, Frank, let's worry about the straight up regular Fascism here in the US before we start chasing the boogeyman of 'islamofascism'. We have to keep our eye on the ball cause we're down to playing for all the marbles. Nuts who preach/teach/practice honor killing of women, stoning gays etc and other whacked out religious beliefs are a small minority.

Christians got that one covered. Frank's in good company.

http://reason.com/assets/mc/mwelch/2010_03/Westboro.jpg

"While promoting her new book... Ann Coulter came out solidly against allowing women the right to vote. " --http://www. liveleak.com/view?i=102_1191711540

jmdrake
11-30-2010, 05:32 AM
I don't "fear" Islam. I reject the teachings of Islam, Sharia Law, and I certainly reject certain radicalized groups who want to force that lifestyle on others.


I reject Islam as a religion and I reject Sharia law and it's Mosaic law (torah) precedent. (It's interesting how those so concerned about Sharia law ignore the fact that the Mosaic law included stoning adulterers, Sabbath breakers and a lot of other equivalents to what is disliked about Sharia). But the difference is that it doesn't worry me. It clearly worries you. Worry is an approximation for "fear".



I was joking by using the term "Islamofascism" because I still think "Islamophobia" is a silly term.


Why? Because you are merely an "Islamoworrier"?



Dude, I am aware. I'm well aware these so-called radicalized "Islamic" groups are following Karl Marx rather than the Koran. They merely use "Islam" as a front.


Are you aware that our government funds and supports such a group because they are against Iran? Can you name the specific group that I'm talking about and their history? I'm not talking about some theoretical JBS sitting in the armchair theorizing how such and such must be communist. I'm talking about the actual claimed economic philosophy of this terrorist group. Are you aware of the fact that the Iranian government rejected them because they were Marxist?



Being anti-Sharia Law and anti-Islam doesn't make you a Neocon.


Straw man - red herring - cheap diversion. I never said you were necon. I said the word ISLAMOFACISM is a neocon word. They made it up to distract people from the fact that they support Islamomarxists.



This is true. According to Jesus, he's the ONLY way to God. Either Jesus is the Messiah or he's a liar. The Jewish leaders in the Bible thought he was a liar.

Yes. And I'm not worried about the Jews imposing Mosaic law either. Both groups (Jews and Muslims) simply that the demographic power to carry out such a plan. The best they can hope for is to influence the society at large through other means. The Saudis influence Fox News through their Kingdom Foundation investments to attack their enemies the Shia and secular Arab leaders who protect Christians like Saddam Hussein. The Zionists influence policy through AIPAC. But neither group has the numbers or is on track to have the numbers to actually get the public at large to go along with it. That doesn't mean it can't happen within their own enclaves. Some orthodox Jews voluntarily submit to Mosaic family law just some Muslims voluntarily submit to Sharia family law. And yes you have some Muslims attempting to force Sharia law on others in their community. The idea of Jews doing that has been domesticated out of them from thousands of years in exile.

Anyway, Jesus didn't have a habit of going around attacking other religions. He spent His time trying to reform His OWN religion. Christianity wasn't officially split off for Judaism until after his death. During his life the equivalent of "Islam" was the Samaritan religion. Compare Jesus dealings with the Samaritans with your dealings with Muslims and get back with me.

jmdrake
11-30-2010, 05:47 AM
So, is this thread about a particular religion, or is this thread about theocracy in general?

Are we going to not vote for the politician who admits he's a Christian, however has given no indication that he'd force his beliefs on others through government, and yet not hold same skepticism about Muslims?


I haven't seen anybody in this thread suggest that we should vote for some radical Muslim cleric for political office. I haven't seen any evidence of Muslims reaching any type of demographic mass where they could start influencing elections. And current immigration / birth trends are not trending Muslim, they are trending Catholic. (Most Latin American immigrants are Catholic). Should protestants be the ones worried? Right now our Supreme Court has no protestants on it. It only has Catholics and Jews. (It doesn't have any Muslims on it either). So who's power is really increasing in this country?



I theorize that every religion goes through phases. The Christians have tried to use government to do their bidding, and yes, that was a bloody time in human history. But you'd have to be a fool to ignore the fact that nearly every major Muslim nation in the middle east bases their laws on religious doctrine, still today.


Iraq was secular before we overthrew Saddam and helped the Shiites turn it into an Islamic Republic.



That isn't a huge problem to me. They're sovereign nations and they can impose whatever laws [on themselves] they see fit. (Personally, I think it'd be kind of interesting to see how a nation so quick to stone its women for showing their faces manages to defy Darwinism after killing off its females, but hey, that's just my cynical side talking.) We live in the age of travel, however, and people aren't as keen to keep to themselves as they were in the past.


Sharia law doesn't require women to hide their faces. If it did then how do you explain these Iranian women?

http://articleinspector.com/images/persian-women.jpg

Just because country X has a law and country X is Muslim doesn't mean all Muslims hold to that law. Also I don't know of any country where stoning is the punishment for showing your face. That wasn't even true under the Taliban.




There was a time when this may have been true. Apparently, I am not looking at the American people through the same lens as you. Last time I checked, we have selective civil rights lawyers who will rush to the aid of minorities whenever they feel as though their rights have been violated, but if a member of a majority has his/her rights violated, well, it's just assumed that they can endure it, I suppose. Add to those selective lawyers the backing of millions of selectively-apologist liberals (you know, people who have never owned slaves but senselessly feel like they owe President Obama his vote so to reverse the course of an unchangeable history) in this country, and you have . . . 'Britain, and Europe.'

You mean like the evil liberal ACLU that recently helped a white, male, Christian member of the CampaingForLiberty after he was harassed by the TSA for carrying a large amount of cash through the airport? They must have helped him because he was part of a political minority. ;)

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 07:54 AM
I reject Islam as a religion and I reject Sharia law and it's Mosaic law (torah) precedent. (It's interesting how those so concerned about Sharia law ignore the fact that the Mosaic law included stoning adulterers, Sabbath breakers and a lot of other equivalents to what is disliked about Sharia). But the difference is that it doesn't worry me. It clearly worries you. Worry is an approximation for "fear".

These radicalized Islamic groups are openly calling for world conquest. I don't see the Jewish leaders (Mosaic law) openly calling for this type of domination. When an organization calls for world conquest (like the Nazis) I don't view it as "fear" to actively prepare a defense against the conquest.


"Islamists" Denounce Capitalism, Call for Global Caliphate (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/election/1499)

A militant Islamist group, Hizb ut-Tahrir al Islami (The Islamic Liberation Party), held a recruiting conference in Chicago on Sunday July 19. by William F. Jasper

Son of Hamas co-founder Warns the US: Muslims Want 'Global Islamic State'; US Fooled (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=258525)

As the son of a Hamas co-founder who became a Christian, a spy for Israel and a consultant to the Holy Land Foundation terror-finance trial, Mosab Hassan Yousef offers a rare perspective on the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood – at once the spawn of nearly every major Islamic terrorist group and of "mainstream" operatives in the U.S. such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Yieu
11-30-2010, 09:24 AM
FrankRep, I'm not sure why you keep posting anti-muslim rhetoric on this forum, because clearly you are the only one who has an interest in it. It is not a position of the liberty movement and we do not need people seeing such things on our site, causing them to think everyone here thinks this way for so many articles on the topic to be posted so often.

angelatc
11-30-2010, 09:25 AM
Hate me all you want. Jesus would call Islam a false religion.

That's kind of sad, because Islam recognizes Christianity as a true religion.


FrankRep, I'm not sure why you keep posting anti-muslim rhetoric on this forum, because clearly you are the only one who has an interest in it. It is not a position of the liberty movement and we do not need people seeing such things on our site, causing them to think everyone here thinks this way for so many articles on the topic to be posted so often.

Yes. And when his arguments are destroyed in a thread, he just wanders away and reposts all the same hateful propaganda to another thread. He should be banished to Hot Topics, because he makes us all look politically ignorant.

Seraphim
11-30-2010, 09:26 AM
OOGA BOOGA BOOGA SHARIA LAW OOGA BOOGA BOOGA...








HAHAHAHHA that made me laugh. LOL.

Brooklyn Red Leg
11-30-2010, 09:37 AM
http://articleinspector.com/images/persian-women.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/Brooklyn_Red_Leg/019-Drooling-SuperEmoticonscom.gif

Sorry, I have a thing for women with black hair and Persian women tend to be all kinds of beautiful.....:D

Seraphim
11-30-2010, 09:38 AM
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/Brooklyn_Red_Leg/019-Drooling-SuperEmoticonscom.gif

Sorry, I have a thing for women with black hair and Persian women tend to be all kinds of beautiful.....:D

Persian women (Morroco included) have, quite possibly, the most beautiful women in the world.

GORGEOUS.

I love that caramel coloured skin. I need me one of those. :)

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 09:41 AM
Hate me all you want. Jesus would call Islam a false religion.


That's kind of sad, because Islam recognizes Christianity as a true religion.

The Judeo-Christian God doesn't believe in equality. (Sorry)

First Commandment:


"I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me..."

Go ahead and keep hating me.



Yes. And when his arguments are destroyed in a thread, he just wanders away and reposts all the same hateful propaganda to another thread. He should be banished to Hot Topics, because he makes us all look politically ignorant.


No arguments have been destroyed. People are only saying they hate me and call me rude names.


Proof this wrong. Then we'll talk:


I've targeted three explicit organizations that want Sharia Law imposed on the world. Many more exist.

Hizb ut-Tahrir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir), Muslim Brotherhood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood), and Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas)

Recently the Council on American-Islamic Relations (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=270237) (CAIR) is being exposed as having connections to these Islamic groups.


Canada National Security: Muslim 'Parallel Society' within Canada a Threat
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=269167

Son of Hamas co-founder Warns the US: Muslims Want 'Global Islamic State'; US Fooled
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=258525

Yieu
11-30-2010, 09:46 AM
The Judeo-Christian God doesn't believe in equality. (Sorry)

First Commandment:


"I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me..."

As a Hindu, I believe I am following the First Commandment to the letter. Muslims worship the "God of Abraham" just the same.


Go ahead and keep hating me.

No arguments have been destroyed. People are only saying they hate me and call me rude names.


Proof this wrong. Then we'll talk:


I'm not saying that I hate you or calling you rude names, I'm trying to politely tell you that the information you make several dozens of threads regarding Islam is not a viewpoint that is shared by anyone else on the forum, so it is not particularly welcome here in General Politics, where we know such talk has led to less freedom and more war in the past.

pcosmar
11-30-2010, 09:47 AM
So, all we have to do is restore the Constitution, and respect for the Constitution.

Problem solved.
:cool:

YumYum
11-30-2010, 09:58 AM
So, all we have to do is restore the Constitution, and respect for the Constitution.

Problem solved.
:cool:

We have to enforce the Declaration of Independence, since the Constitution is ambiguous.

Madly_Sane
11-30-2010, 09:58 AM
My Grandfather doesn't exactly have a concious fear of Shariah law, but he certainly has a subconcious one. He constantly rants on about how the 'Mooslims' are the cause of all his problems and how they should all be killed. He says these things even in front of his 8 year old Grandson, who is starting to pick these things up.
But, he believes any race except white should be removed from the earth, that he should rule the world and if all that happened everything would be fine.
Whats even worse (from the way I view things) is that he is not only teaching him (either directly or indirectly) about his views but is also teaching him how to use weapons. Although, he is teaching him how to use them properly/safely, but I still believe teaching him those things at the same time could be a recipe for future disaster.

heavenlyboy34
11-30-2010, 10:09 AM
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/Brooklyn_Red_Leg/019-Drooling-SuperEmoticonscom.gif

Sorry, I have a thing for women with black hair and Persian women tend to be all kinds of beautiful.....:D

+a zillion :D

heavenlyboy34
11-30-2010, 10:10 AM
We have to enforce the Declaration of Independence, since the Constitution is ambiguous.

qft!:cool:

heavenlyboy34
11-30-2010, 10:13 AM
The Judeo-Christian God doesn't believe in equality. (Sorry)

First Commandment:

"I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me..."Go ahead and keep hating me.





No arguments have been destroyed. People are only saying they hate me and call me rude names.


Proof this wrong. Then we'll talk:

I've targeted three explicit organizations that want Sharia Law imposed on the world. Many more exist.

Hizb ut-Tahrir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir), Muslim Brotherhood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood), and Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas)

Recently the Council on American-Islamic Relations (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=270237) (CAIR) is being exposed as having connections to these Islamic groups.


Canada National Security: Muslim 'Parallel Society' within Canada a Threat
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=269167 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=269167)

Son of Hamas co-founder Warns the US: Muslims Want 'Global Islamic State'; US Fooled
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=258525 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=258525)

Frank, this doesn't support your argument at all-it describes the opinions of a few extremists. This is as absurd as quoting KKK members as representative of Christians.

pcosmar
11-30-2010, 10:17 AM
We have to enforce the Declaration of Independence, since the Constitution is ambiguous.

I don't believe that it is ambiguous, I believe it is IGNORED.

1st Amendment
2nd amendment
4th Amendment
5th Amendment
etc.
These would eliminate any danger from any other law. And many present ones.
If they were followed and respected.

phx420
11-30-2010, 11:33 AM
im the one that said I hate him / or calling him rude names, "i fucking hate you" gets right to the point, something this guy cant achieve in 15000 posts. Just say that you hate Muslims, get to the point. If your clear about your intentions then I wouldn't be bothered by you at all.

Fozz
11-30-2010, 11:36 AM
Islamofascism :p

Anyone who thinks Eric Dondero's blog is a legitimate source of info is a neocon.

Fozz
11-30-2010, 11:41 AM
"Islamophobia" is just as silly.

No it isn't. Ron Paul and Rush Limbaugh have used that word.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 11:50 AM
Anyone who thinks Eric Dondero's blog is a legitimate source of info is a neocon.
You apparently have no clue what a "Neocon" is.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 11:51 AM
No it isn't. Ron Paul and Rush Limbaugh have used that word.

Yes, it is silly. Just as silly as "Governophobia."

virgil47
11-30-2010, 11:56 AM
FrankRep, I'm not sure why you keep posting anti-muslim rhetoric on this forum, because clearly you are the only one who has an interest in it. It is not a position of the liberty movement and we do not need people seeing such things on our site, causing them to think everyone here thinks this way for so many articles on the topic to be posted so often.

If you actually believe that he is the only one with these beliefs you are very, very mistaken. Islam is diametrically opposed to the liberty movement. Islam is NOT about the individual freedoms that many on here claim to be proponents of. Islam is about the unquestioning obedience to a set of laws and rules that was formulated in the 6th century. The vast majority of Muslims cannot ever be true loyal citizens of the U.S. because of their belief that the U.S. laws and constitution do not apply to them except when it is to their benifit.

phx420
11-30-2010, 12:00 PM
The vast majority of Muslims cannot ever be true loyal citizens of the U.S. because of their belief that the U.S. laws and constitution do not apply to them except when it is to their benifit.

Kill em all I say

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 12:04 PM
Kill em all I say

Do you mean Jihad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad)?


MSNBC:
Bomb suspect to classmate: 'I hate Americans' (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40402994/ns/us_news-security/)
FBI: Ore. teen hoped to kill revelers at Christmas tree lighting ceremony


http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/imgLib/201011281_mohamedosmanmohamud.jpg
Mohamed Osman Mohamud


Analysis: Somali Terror Suspects Multiplying in U.S. (http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.8024/pub_detail.asp)

Family Security Matters
November 29, 2010

phx420
11-30-2010, 12:06 PM
good job taking it out of context ******

Yieu
11-30-2010, 12:07 PM
FrankRep, don't fall for the propagandizing!

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 12:08 PM
FrankRep, don't fall for the propagandizing!

Is Mohamed Osman Mohamud is real person or not?

Dr.3D
11-30-2010, 12:10 PM
good job taking it out of context ******

If you are going to try to insult someone, at least use the correct spelling of the word. It's fagot.

Meaning.... a bundle of sticks and branches bound together.

Now I don't know why anybody would consider FrankRep to be a bundle of sticks.

Fozz
11-30-2010, 12:10 PM
If you actually believe that he is the only one with these beliefs you are very, very mistaken. Islam is diametrically opposed to the liberty movement. Islam is NOT about the individual freedoms that many on here claim to be proponents of. Islam is about the unquestioning obedience to a set of laws and rules that was formulated in the 6th century. The vast majority of Muslims cannot ever be true loyal citizens of the U.S. because of their belief that the U.S. laws and constitution do not apply to them except when it is to their benifit.

Another nutball :rolleyes:

It is exactly your rhetoric that can lead to massive internment camps and a nuclear genocide against 1.5 billion people. What you are trying to do is portray every single Muslim as an enemy that needs to be defeated, so the religion can be eradicated.

phx420
11-30-2010, 12:11 PM
remove me and my posts from this site, thanks

Dr.3D
11-30-2010, 12:13 PM
remove me and my posts from this site, thanks
You are not the first to make that request for themselves.

Sorry, if you want your posts removed, you will have to do it yourself.
As far as removing yourself.... that's something you do by not logging in.

pcosmar
11-30-2010, 12:13 PM
Is Mohamed Osman Mohamud is real person or not?

A real person,,perhaps.
A real threat,, Doubts.

Was he turned into one by rampant paranoia, and the FBI ?

Undoubtedly.
:(

Yieu
11-30-2010, 12:16 PM
I think it would be nice and would show how peaceful and non-interventionist we are if there weren't any anti-muslim FrankRep type threads here in General Politics.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 12:16 PM
Another nutball :rolleyes:

It is exactly your rhetoric that can lead to massive internment camps and a nuclear genocide against 1.5 billion people. What you are trying to do is portray every single Muslim as an enemy that needs to be defeated, so the religion can be eradicated.

I've only called out the following radicalized Islamic groups:


Hizb ut-Tahrir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir), Muslim Brotherhood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood), Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas), and Al-Shabaab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shabaab)

Recently the Council on American-Islamic Relations (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=270237) (CAIR) is being exposed for having connections to these radicalized Islamic groups.

Yieu
11-30-2010, 12:17 PM
And why should a non-interventionist care?

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 12:21 PM
And why should a non-interventionist care?
These radicalized Islamic groups have people in America and they are NOT non-interventionist.

Dr.3D
11-30-2010, 12:21 PM
These radicalized Islamic groups have people in America and they are NOT non-interventionist.

Exactly!

jmdrake
11-30-2010, 12:24 PM
These radicalized Islamic groups are openly calling for world conquest. I don't see the Jewish leaders (Mosaic law) openly calling for this type of domination. When an organization calls for world conquest (like the Nazis) I don't view it as "fear" to actively prepare a defense against the conquest.


You've never heard of AIPAC? Interesting. Sure AIPAC isn't pushing for Mosaic law, but that's because they've largely abandoned the torah in favor of the talmud anyway. Anyway, Muslim "organization" is an oxymoron. There are various Muslims sects in competition in the world. There are Christian groups pushing for one world government. (Pat Robertson. the pope etc).



Son of Hamas co-founder Warns the US: Muslims Want 'Global Islamic State'; US Fooled (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=258525)


Oh yes. You always post this Mossad double agent as "proof" of something while ignoring all of the evidence that Israel (Mossad's country of origin) fostered the creation and expansion of Hamas. That's just plain funny.

You = http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee230/krayzee114/PittedBrickWall_g.jpg

YouTube - Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3vF6Vcjr0)

pcosmar
11-30-2010, 12:25 PM
I've only called out the following radicalized Islamic groups:


.

Yes, over and over again.
While ignoring the fact that Hamas was created by Israel (their own blowback) and that none are relevant to US laws.

Yieu
11-30-2010, 12:30 PM
Yes, over and over again.

And it's been enough, so let it be over.

Yieu
11-30-2010, 01:15 PM
For a counter-example to some of the claims made earlier in the thread, and to pay respect for the nice comments, enjoy these wise words given in a reply to me:


I agree with you that all people are created equal, and it is nice to hear that from someone who (I suspect) is probably Christian, because many would tell me I am worth less than them and should go to hell for worshiping God slightly differently.


Indeed I am a Christian. Sometimes I imagine it can be confusing to try and pin down where I stand, because I can 'take on' the perspective of others pretty much at will. If I am arguing a point for Jewish people, I'll take on their perspective. If I am arguing a point for atheists, I take on their perspective. That's just what I do.

You have to divorce the tenants of doctrinal belief from the passing of judgment and the enforcement of government law. I was just arguing in another thread against the notion that Christians should enforce Christian doctrine at the point of a government gun. In this thread, I am arguing against the notion that atheists should enforce atheist doctrine at the point of a government gun. Let it not be said that I am inconsistent here.

In my experience, the vast majority of Christians have Christianity very wrong. Christianity says that belief in Jesus Christ is the only assurance of salvation. It pointedly does NOT say that all who do not believe in Jesus are certainly going to hell. There is a pretty big difference, and one should not require a Venn diagram to see that.

Christianity also says that passing judgment is one of the worst sins, and yet so many Christians love to pass judgment. Any Christian who says someone should go to hell (for whatever reason) is passing judgment and placing themselves in the position of God -- one of the worst sins in the entire Christian faith.

From the unbeliever's perspective, it can be difficult to discern between a statement of doctrine (people who do not believe in Jesus are not guaranteed admission into heaven) and a statement of judgment (people who do not believe in Jesus ought to go to hell). Understand that a difference DOES exist. The first is independent of will or desire, and rendered as a statement of doctrinal fact separate from will or desire. The second tries to put people into hell by force of will.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 01:47 PM
Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09

Yes, over and over again.
While ignoring the fact that Hamas was created by Israel (their own blowback) and that none are relevant to US laws.


Israel didn't "create" Hamas. Israel allowed the organization to build mosques, clubs, schools, and a library in Gaza.


Israel is sooo EVIL!!!


History of Hamas > Early Islamic activism in Gaza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas#Early_Islamic_activism_in_Gaza)

amas was established in 1987, and has its origins in Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood movement, which had been active in the Gaza Strip since the 1950s and gained influence through a network of mosques and various charitable and social organizations. In the 1980s the Brotherhood emerged as a powerful political factor, challenging the influence of the PLO, and in 1987 adopted a more nationalist and activist line under the name of Hamas. During the 1990s and early 2000s, the organization conducted numerous suicide bombings and other attacks against Israel and its occupation of the Palestinian Territories.
...

Among the activists benefited was Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, who had also formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, a charity recognized by Israel in 1979. Israel allowed the organization to build mosques, clubs, schools, and a library in Gaza.
...

In 1987, several Palestinians were killed in a traffic accident involving an Israeli driver, and the events that followed–a Palestinian uprising against Israel's West Bank and Gaza occupation–led Yassin and six other Palestinians to found Hamas as an offshoot of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood.
...

Hamas carried out its first attack against Israel in 1989, abducting and killing two soldiers.

Heimdallr
11-30-2010, 01:54 PM
You're backwards and extremist Frank. I respect your right to speak your mind, but you would have no problems if America became a place where I would be persecuted for speaking my mind. That's apparent.

Just sayin'.

amy31416
11-30-2010, 01:57 PM
Israel didn't "create" Hamas. Israel allowed the organization to build mosques, clubs, schools, and a library in Gaza.

EVIL!!!


History of Hamas > Early Islamic activism in Gaza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas#Early_Islamic_activism_in_Gaza)

amas was established in 1987, and has its origins in Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood movement, which had been active in the Gaza Strip since the 1950s and gained influence through a network of mosques and various charitable and social organizations. In the 1980s the Brotherhood emerged as a powerful political factor, challenging the influence of the PLO, and in 1987 adopted a more nationalist and activist line under the name of Hamas. During the 1990s and early 2000s, the organization conducted numerous suicide bombings and other attacks against Israel and its occupation of the Palestinian Territories.
...

Among the activists benefited was Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, who had also formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, a charity recognized by Israel in 1979. Israel allowed the organization to build mosques, clubs, schools, and a library in Gaza.
...

In 1987, several Palestinians were killed in a traffic accident involving an Israeli driver, and the events that followed–a Palestinian uprising against Israel's West Bank and Gaza occupation–led Yassin and six other Palestinians to found Hamas as an offshoot of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood.
...

Hamas carried out its first attack against Israel in 1989, abducting and killing two soldiers.

So. Ron Paul is lying? Just like Jesus? :D

You don't believe that Israel had a hand in Hamas' creation--strangely, a lot of people disagree with you, who aren't nearly as biased as you are:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/25/how_israel_created_hamas_and_k/
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2006/01/27/hamas-son-of-israel/
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2007/feb/12/00017/
http://www.democracynow.org/2006/1/26/how_israel_and_the_united_states
http://washington-report.org/archives/november02/0211020.html


Please, respond again with the same articles that you keep posting over and over and over again.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 02:02 PM
So. Ron Paul is lying? Just like Jesus? :D

You don't believe that Israel had a hand in Hamas' creation--strangely, a lot of people disagree with you, who aren't nearly as biased as you are:

Israel helped Hamas (Mujama al-Islamiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujama_al-Islamiya)) "build mosques, clubs, schools, and a library in Gaza," but Israel didn't "create" Hamas.

Israel helped Hamas build mosques.

EVIL!!!! :rolleyes:

jmdrake
11-30-2010, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09

Israel didn't "create" Hamas. Israel allowed the organization to build mosques, clubs, schools, and a library in Gaza.


Frankrep, I've disagreed with you quite a bit. But this is the first time that you have purposefully twisted my quote to attribute to me something I did not say.

I did NOT say "Israel created Hamas". I posted a video where Ron Paul said "Hamas was encouraged and really started by Israel". You clipped out the video and left in the title to deceitfully make it appear that I said "Israel created Hamas". That's low Frank and you should be ashamed of yourself. Again here is Ron Paul's video.

YouTube - Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3vF6Vcjr0)

What's the position I've taken on Israel and Hamas? I said earlier in this thread that Israel fostered Hamas. You euphemistically talk about Israel "allowing Hamas to build mosques, clubs, schools and a library". That's all true. But all of this was happening [b]while Israel had good intelligence that Hamas was behind suicide bombings. Israel would then bomb Yasser Arrafat for "allowing" Hamas to carry out terror! Israel did NOT attack Hamas during this period. So Israel allowed Hamas to reap the benefits of its propaganda campaign, but then attacked the PLO for not "stopping" Hamas terror.

Quit playing games. They're getting old and they aren't impressing anyone. Besides, by your own admission Israel had a top level spy inside Hamas. Surely he told his Mossad handlers all along the true intent of Hamas. But he really didn't need to because Hamas never hid its animosity to Israel. As far as whether Israel was "so evil" to foster Hamas the way it did, I didn't say they were "evil". But what they did was at least very stupid.

pcosmar
11-30-2010, 02:29 PM
Frank, Why do you support Fascism?

I understand opposing communism, I dislike it too. But this is the mistake that Germany made.
Choosing Fascism over communism, and voted in Hitler.

Zionism is Fascism. Compare the both side by side.
Master Race or Chosen Race ,same difference
Hitler had the Jews as a universal enemy
Zionism has Muslims

Both are Authoritarian, Both are socialist, Both are Nationalistic.

The similarities outweigh any small differences.
They are the same.

amy31416
11-30-2010, 02:29 PM
Israel helped Hamas (Mujama al-Islamiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujama_al-Islamiya)) "build mosques, clubs, schools, and a library in Gaza," but Israel didn't "create" Hamas.

Israel helped Hamas build mosques.

EVIL!!!! :rolleyes:

You didn't read a single article.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 03:08 PM
Frankrep, I've disagreed with you quite a bit. But this is the first time that you have purposefully twisted my quote to attribute to me something I did not say.

Your video says: "YouTube - Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09"

The video title is false and misleading.



I did NOT say "Israel created Hamas". I posted a video where Ron Paul said "Hamas was encouraged and really started by Israel".



It's one thing to spy on your enemies. It's another thing to create them. Hamas was not "radicalized". Hamas had the same mission statement from day one. The PLO was a secular group that wanted to retake Palestine and Hamas was an radical Islamic group that wanted to do the same thing but from an Islamic point of view. If Israel thought Hamas was not "radical" when Hamas was formed then Israel is stupid. I don't think Israel is stupid.

jmdrake, you have said in the past the Israel created Hamas.




You clipped out the video and left in the title to deceitfully make it appear that I said "Israel created Hamas". That's low Frank and you should be ashamed of yourself. Again here is Ron Paul's video.

You should be ashamed to attacking Israel because they helped the Muslims build mosques, schools, and a library and call it "Blowback" when the Muslims start terrorist attacks on Israel.

Israel helped Hamas and got stabbed in the back.





You euphemistically talk about Israel "allowing Hamas to build mosques, clubs, schools and a library". That's all true. But all of this was happening while Israel had good intelligence that Hamas was behind suicide bombings.



[B]In 1984 the Israeli army received intelligence that Yassin's followers were collecting arms in Gaza. Israeli troops raided mosques and found a cache of weapons.[19] Yassin was arrested, but told his interrogators the weapons were meant to be used against secular Palestinians, not Israel. The cleric was released a year later and allowed to continue to develop his movement in Gaza.[19]

Around the time of Yassin's arrest, Avner Cohen, an Israeli religious affairs official, sent a report to senior military officers and civilian leadership in Gaza advising them of the dangers of the Islamic movement, but this report and similar ones were ignored.[19] Former military intelligence officer Shalom Harari said the warnings were ignored out of neglect, not a desire to fortify the Islamists: "Israel never financed Hamas. Israel never armed Hamas."[19][22] In contrast, French investigative newspaper Le Canard enchaîné writes that Shin Bet also supported Hamas as an attempt to give "a religious slant" to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, to make the West believe that it was essentially between Jews and Muslims.[23]

What a crazy mess.





Israel would then bomb Yasser Arrafat for "allowing" Hamas to carry out terror! Israel did NOT attack Hamas during this period. So Israel allowed Hamas to reap the benefits of its propaganda campaign, but then attacked the PLO for not "stopping" Hamas terror.


Hamas carried out its first attack against Israel in 1989, abducting and killing two soldiers. The Israel Defense Forces immediately arrested Yassin and sentenced him to life in prison, and deported 400 Hamas activists, including Zahar, to South Lebanon, which at the time was occupied by Israel. During this time Hamas built a relationship with Hezbollah.


Israel attacked Hamas right here.



Quit playing games. They're getting old and they aren't impressing anyone. Besides, by your own admission Israel had a top level spy inside Hamas. Surely he told his Mossad handlers all along the true intent of Hamas. But he really didn't need to because Hamas never hid its animosity to Israel. As far as whether Israel was "so evil" to foster Hamas the way it did, I didn't say they were "evil". But what they did was at least very stupid.


I have a new respect for Israel after learning how they tried to help the Muslims in Gaza strip and the Israel got stabbed in the back. I certainly hope Israel has spies in Hamas and hopefully in other terrorist organizations and radicalized nations like Iran.

I have a new disrespect for you, jmdrake, for attacking Israel for helping the Muslims build mosques and schools in Gaza.

jmdrake
11-30-2010, 03:40 PM
Your video says: "YouTube - Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09"

The video title is false and misleading.

jmdrake, you have said in the past the Israel created Hamas.


Uh-huh. I said so based on what Ron Paul said. But after our previous conversation I was willing to back off from what Ron Paul said and go with Israel "merely" fostered Hamas. I see you decided to be a douche about that. So you want to attack me for believing Ron Paul, ignore my different position, and still claim to be a Ron Paul supporter.



You should be ashamed to attacking Israel because they helped the Muslims build mosques, schools, and a library and call it "Blowback" when the Muslims start terrorist attacks on Israel.

Israel helped Hamas and got stabbed in the back.


Don't be an idiot. I'm saying that at the very least it is very stupid if Hamas makes public statements claiming responsibility for setting off bombs in Israel, and Israel has a Mossad agent inside Hamas reporting what Hamas "really" thinks for Israel to help Hamas in the name of "helping Muslims build mosques, schools and libraries". Using your retarded logic everybody who supports Hamas should be let off the hook including Saddam. After all paying off the families of suicide bombers could be construed as "helping widows and orphans".







In 1984 the Israeli army received intelligence that Yassin's followers were collecting arms in Gaza. Israeli troops raided mosques and found a cache of weapons.[19] Yassin was arrested, but told his interrogators the weapons were meant to be used against secular Palestinians, not Israel. The cleric was released a year later and allowed to continue to develop his movement in Gaza.[19]


Right. This proves my point! It also proves Ron Paul's point to a lesser degree though Ron Paul goes FURTHER than I did! Israel decided to let Hamas keep it's weapons because they wanted Hamas to serve as a counterbalance to secular Palestinians. They preferred the "Islamofacists" to the secular Arabs. So who's fault is that? Did you honestly think Hamas was going to use that weapons cache to "build mosques, schools and libraries"?

At the very least this was a very stupid move on the part of Israel.



Around the time of Yassin's arrest, Avner Cohen, an Israeli religious affairs official, sent a report to senior military officers and civilian leadership in Gaza advising them of the dangers of the Islamic movement, but this report and similar ones were ignored.[19] Former military intelligence officer Shalom Harari said the warnings were ignored out of neglect, not a desire to fortify the Islamists: "Israel never financed Hamas. Israel never armed Hamas."[19][22] In contrast, French investigative newspaper Le Canard enchaîné writes that Shin Bet also supported Hamas as an attempt to give "a religious slant" to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, to make the West believe that it was essentially between Jews and Muslims.[23]


You call it "neglect". I call it stupidity. By your own admission Israel knew Hamas was planning to use violence against secular Palestinians. By your own admission Mossad had a high level spy inside Hamas. Your own admissions condemn your own position.



What a crazy mess.


What you call a "crazy mess" I call a "stupid mess". What's the diff?





Hamas carried out its first attack against Israel in 1989, abducting and killing two soldiers. The Israel Defense Forces immediately arrested Yassin and sentenced him to life in prison, and deported 400 Hamas activists, including Zahar, to South Lebanon, which at the time was occupied by Israel. During this time Hamas built a relationship with Hezbollah.


Israel attacked Hamas right here.


Uh-huh. And then they let him go. I've gone over this with you before.




I have a new respect for Israel after learning how they tried to help the Muslims in Gaza strip and the Israel got stabbed in the back. I certainly hope Israel has spies in Hamas and hopefully in other terrorist organizations and radicalized nations like Iran.


If you think that allowing a militant organization to keep weapons to attack secularists is a way to "help Muslims" then you're nuts. And the problem isn't that Israel has "spies" in Hamas. The problem is that it's ridiculous for you to continue to assert that Israel believed they were "helping Hamas build schools" when they had a high level spy inside the organization to tell them Hamas had a different agenda.



I have a new disrespect for you, jmdrake, for attacking Israel for helping the Muslims build mosques and schools in Gaza.

Again, if you think a weapons cache that Islamists muslims were planning to use against secular muslims was needed to help Muslims build mosques and schools in Gaza than you are nuts. And you probably have a disrespect for Ron Paul that you are unwilling to come out and admit.

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 03:41 PM
Personally, I think it'd be kind of interesting to see how a nation so quick to stone its women for showing their faces manages to defy Darwinism after killing off its females, but hey, that's just my cynical side talking.)

Any proof of this? Or are you just talking out of your ass? Muslim countries for the most part have more females than males (this is true of Pakistan). China and India have more males than females and they are definitely not Muslim countries.

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 03:45 PM
No arguments have been destroyed. People are only saying they hate me and call

You don't make arguments. You just post the same BS links over and over again. Posting links is not making an argument.

Depressed Liberator
11-30-2010, 03:45 PM
Leave it to FrankRep to spew bullshit hate on Muslims.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 03:49 PM
http://www.cnsnews.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/medium/images/burqa%20woman%20palestinian.jpg
A Palestinian woman wears a niqab. (AP Photo)


Statistics Show Women Fare Badly in Muslim Countries, but U.N. Official Says Critics Are ‘Stereotyping’ Islam (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/statistics-show-women-do-fare-badly-unde)

CNS News
October 22, 2010


The head of the U.N. Population Fund blames stereotyping for the perception that Islamic societies are “backward” when it comes to the treatment of women, but data released by other international agencies challenge that assertion.

U.N. Population Fund (UNFPA) Executive Director Thoraya Obaid, a Saudi, made the statement in an interview with Inter Press Service (IPS), as the agency she heads released its annual report on the world’s population.

This year’s report focuses on the way women are affected by conflict, and Obaid told IPS that the overthrow of Saddam Hussein left Iraqi women worse off.

(Human rights advocates say the rights enjoyed by Iraqi women under family laws enacted two decades before Saddam seized power in 1979 were set back after the Baathist regime fell, as newly empowered Islamists pressed for marital and family matters to be regulated by shari’a law.)

“Although the [Iraqi] constitution forbids discrimination on the basis of gender, in practice conservative societal standards impeded women’s abilities to exercise their rights,” the State Department said in its most recent annual human rights report.)

Obaid said conditions for Iraqi women had worsened after the U.S.-led invasion.

The interviewer then asked her, “How does this square with the perception that, left to themselves, Muslim societies are backward, and that the U.S. is the progressive one?”

Obaid replied, “That is a political question in many ways. There are stereotypes of Muslim countries, and Muslim women.”

“This is the stereotyping of a people and also of a religion, and as a result assumptions are based on such perceptions,” Obaid added. “In many ways it is perceptions that hinder Muslim women in many places.”

Obaid pointed out that she is a Saudi woman – “and see where I am right now.”

Ali Alyami, executive director of the Washington-based Center for Democracy and Human Rights in Saudi Arabia, said Friday that Obaid was “a defender of her oppressors.”

“I know her, and her position is more important to her than speaking the truth to power,” he said.

Obaid’s career achievements stand in stark contrast to the situation faced by millions of women in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the Arab and Islamic world, as borne out by two major reports released this month.

The World Economic Forum last week distributed its annual Global Gender Gap Report (http://www.weforum.org/en/Communities/Women%20Leaders%20and%20Gender%20Parity/GenderGapNetwork/index.htm), a review of how 134 countries have succeeded in closing gaps between women and men in four areas – economic participation and opportunity, educational attainment, political empowerment and health and survival.

While some non-Muslim countries do poorly, the vast majority of the worst-scoring countries are Islamic, most of them Arab states.

Seventeen of the 20 countries at the bottom of the gender gap scale are Islamic – Lebanon (placed at 116), Qatar (117), Nigeria (118), Algeria (119), Jordan (120), Oman (122), Iran (123), Syria (124), Egypt (125), Turkey (126), Morocco (127), Benin (128), Saudi Arabia (129), Mali (131), Pakistan (132), Chad (133) and Yemen (134).

The three non-Muslim countries in the bottom 20 are Nepal at 115, Ethiopia at 121 and Cote d’Ivoire at 130.

Another 13 Muslim-majority countries appear higher up in the ratings, with the five scoring the highest Kazakhstan (41), Kyrgyzstan (51), Brunei (77), Bangladesh (82) and Indonesia (87).

School enrolment, literacy, employment, politics

On Wednesday, the U.N. Department of Economic and Social Affairs (DESA) released another major report (http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/Worldswomen/WW2010pub.htm), also dealing with the status of women around the world in 2010. The numerous indicators explored in the report include the rate of girls of primary school age enrolled in school, compared to that of boys.

The seven countries with the biggest gaps are all Islamic countries – Chad (a 22 percent difference between boys and girls enrolled), Yemen (20), Pakistan (16), Guinea-Bissau (16), Mali (14), Iraq (13) and Niger (13).

Two Islamic countries do break the pattern significantly – in Iran the percentage of girls enrolled in primary school is nine percent higher than that of boys; Mauritania also has five percent more girls enrolled than boys.

When it comes to the difference between literacy rates in adult women and men, Islamic countries once again score worst for women.

Of the seven countries with the biggest literacy gaps, five are Islamic – Yemen (a 36 percent gender gap), Mozambique (30), Guinea-Bissau (29), Niger (28) and Pakistan (27). The non-Islamic two are Central African Republic (28) and Ethiopia (27).

With the net cast wider, of the 28 countries scoring worst for women when it comes to literacy, 20 are Islamic states.

The DESA report also tracks the percentage of women represented in parliaments in 2009. Rwanda scores highest, with 56 percent of its parliamentary seats held by women.

At the other end of the scale, the only countries with no female representatives are all Islamic, and all Arab Gulf states – Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

Finally, Islamic states fare poorly in a list showing the percentage of women making up the adult labor force.

In 27 countries where women accounted for less than one-third of the total adult labor force, 22 are Islamic states, with the UAE (women comprise 15 percent of the workforce), Saudi Arabia (16) and Qatar (16) scoring worst.


SOURCE:
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/statistics-show-women-do-fare-badly-unde

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 03:51 PM
Nothing about stoning in that article. Thanks for proving my point, asswipe.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 03:53 PM
Nothing about stoning in that article. Thanks for proving my point, asswipe.

Here ya go. Stone that women in the name of Islam!

Christian Woman Sentenced to Death in Pakistan for Blasphemy Against Mohammed
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=268158


Iran Human Rights Official Draws Fire for Defense of Stoning
Official Says Stoning Is a Legal Procedure that Gives Criminals a Chance to Survive
http://abcnews.go.com/International/outrage-iran-human-rights-officials-defense-stoning/story?id=12193085

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 03:54 PM
Here ya go. Stone that women in the name of Islam!

Christian Woman Sentenced to Death in Pakistan for Blasphemy Against Mohammed
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=268158

Nothing about stoning in that article either. Why are you such a liar, Frank?

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 03:55 PM
This page lists all of the Hindu and Christian MPs in Pakistan's National assembly:

http://www.na.gov.pk/nonmuslim.html

Pakistan has had a Catholic Supreme Court Chief Justice, from 1960-1968; Alvin Robert Cornelius:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Robert_Cornelius

Also a Hindu Supreme court judge recently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rana_Bhagwandas

Pakistani Christians are also some of the best fighter pilots in the Pakistani Air force:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Chaudhry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Christy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mervyn_Middlecoat

Pakistan's top female fashion models are also Christian, such as Suneeta Marsha, Gia Ali, and Rachel Gill. If you check out their video clips on youtube, you will find them wearing not-so-conservative clothing such as skin tight jeans and leggings. They also act in our drama serials on TV. Pakistan's top fashion designer, Deepak Perwani is a Hindu.


CNN did a story on Karachi's Fashion Week, but neglected to mention the minority presence in Pakistan's fashion and entertainment industry.

If Pakistani female models, who believe Jesus is their lord and savior, can strut around in provocative clothing, their condition cannot be thatbad, at least not as bad as any other regular Pakistani.

Now, I am not saying that there is not any discrimination towards minorities in Pakistan. My family has experienced that as well due to the US supported dictator, Zia ul Haq, whose rule is the cause of Pakistan's slide towards extremism today.
Pakistan used to be open, secular, and quite modern in the 60's and 70's. It still is in the cities, but it's growing less and less modern everyday.

There's discrimination in Pakistan, but it's not just religion-based. There's ethnic discrimination, tribal discrimination and caste discrimination as well. It's unfortunate and should be eliminated. Pakistan does have a quota system (like Affirmative Action here) to give minorities more of a chance in civil service jobs.

In my opinion, it's more of a case of classicism, rich vs. poor. In Pakistan, if you are rich and a Christian/Muslim/Hindu, you will get to go to a nice private school, and get a good job. But if you're poor, well good luck. And if you're poor and a minority non-Muslim, then you have to struggle harder, like poor Iqbal Masih did:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iqbal_Masih

The blasphemy law is despicable and should be repealed. You cannot expect too much in a country where the literacy rate is less than 50%. Poor Pakistani Muslims vent out their frustrations on their poor Christian counterparts, using the blasphemy law as a vehicle. This has risen in the past years, dumb Pakistanis think Christians are siding with Americans/Mossad/whatever.

Pakistan's founder was also a minority Shiite Muslim who liked to drink whiskey, and also married a non-Muslim Zoroastrian. He was staunchly secular and explicitly said the state had no business in person's private religion.

oyarde
11-30-2010, 03:57 PM
Any proof of this? Or are you just talking out of your ass? Muslim countries for the most part have more females than males (this is true of Pakistan). China and India have more males than females and they are definitely not Muslim countries.

The Pakistani ladies are very attractive as well . :)

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 03:58 PM
Why are you such a liar, Frank?

I expect an answer here, Frank. Does Jesus tell you to lie and hate?

georgiaboy
11-30-2010, 04:00 PM
So, all we have to do is restore the Constitution, and respect for the Constitution.

Problem solved.
:cool:

so true.

Imperial
11-30-2010, 04:02 PM
remove me and my posts from this site, thanks


... intellectual honesty demands that, at least occasionally, we go out of our way to confront strong arguments opposed to our views. How else are we to protect ourselves from continuing error? - Robert Nozick, preface to Anarchy, State, and Utopia

One of the greatest political philosophers of the modern age

pcosmar
11-30-2010, 04:05 PM
The Pakistani ladies are very attractive as well . :)

Damn Man,
Ladies are attractive. Period

:cool:

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 04:09 PM
The Pakistani ladies are very attractive as well . :)

I'd like to dip my kabob in their curry. :D

Dr.3D
11-30-2010, 04:26 PM
You don't make arguments. You just post the same BS links over and over again. Posting links is not making an argument.

Maybe he is just trying to show where he is getting his ideas about Islam.

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 05:40 PM
Maybe he is just trying to show where he is getting his ideas about Islam.

Posting the same discredited shit over and over again from biased websites? Yea, that really helps. :rolleyes:

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 05:59 PM
Please, respond again with the same articles that you keep posting over and over and over again.

He certainly will. Isn't that considered trolling?

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 06:01 PM
I certainly hope Israel has spies in Hamas and hopefully in other terrorist organizations and radicalized nations like Iran.


Well Israel certainly has spies in America. Israel uses its spies in other Arab organizations to carry out attacks against America so America can attack innocent Muslim families. But since you have a genocidal hatred towards Muslims, you probably support that, don't you?

Israel has also bombed and killed Christians in Lebanon, but you probably support that since they are a different type of Christian, right Frank?

Only a mental patient would call Iran "radicalized."

libertygrl
11-30-2010, 06:04 PM
Excellent book about Islam by Karen Armstrong called "A Short History of Islam"

http://www.amazon.com/Islam-A-Short-History-ebook/dp/B000XUBEHU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2&s=digital-text&qid=1291160661&sr=8-3-spell

I tried referring it to people who were against the NYC Mosque but no one wanted to even bother to educate themselves about it.

I believe the NYC Mosque has a right to be built there even though I don't personally agree with it, and I also believe you can find extremists in any group. Along with Judaism and Christianity I accept Islam as authentic religion and not some sort of terrorist cult as those on the other side try to make it appear.

That being said, I still haven't closed the door on the possibility that some extremist groups will attempt to want judges in this country to rule by Sharia Law rather than Constitutional law. And it's actually happened in a few states already thanks to CAIR.

I know this is what is freaking out many Conservatives and I got into a very long discussion on another forum about this. Some don't want Mosques built in this country at all. My argument to them is we have to preserve the right of religious freedom in this country and that if people are so concerned about Sharia, the states should pass laws that specifically forbid US judges to apply Sharia Law in cases involving Muslims. I know the CAIR has already come out and said it was anti-muslim but we simply cannot have 2 set of laws in this country.

As dangerous as I feel the thinking of some conservatives over this issue is, I also think it is equally dangerous to ignore the reality that some Islamic extremist groups are indeed attempting to do this.

dannno
11-30-2010, 06:14 PM
The Pakistani ladies are very attractive as well . :)

Hmm I could only see these first two through google images, I think they might be blocked for me but hopefully they work out for everyone else..

http://pakistanigirls.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/selfshot.jpg

http://pakistanigirls.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sara.jpg

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT2pljuJWh_cY9RiOvglMsbIGvnkhi3R nSaCkO-VQVFzzV4xozt

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 06:15 PM
I like these Pakistani ladies:

http://pakistanigirls.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/pak1.jpg

dannno
11-30-2010, 06:17 PM
I like these Pakistani ladies:

http://pakistanigirls.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/pak1.jpg

Ya that's where the first two are from, that site is blocked for me for whatever reason..

pcosmar
11-30-2010, 06:21 PM
I remember sampling some other stuff from Pakistan some years ago.
Good products as I remember.
;)

MelissaWV
11-30-2010, 06:21 PM
awww... as is my custom, I read the first and last pages to see if I should familiarize myself with the thread. I notice we went from making war to making love (or, well, thinking about it) :D

The Islamophobia is no more or less valid than the "they're going to take over!" talk about any other group. There's a whole lot of it going around. People can worry about who else is going to take them over, while happily ignoring the people at home who took them over years ago.

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 06:21 PM
Good products as I remember.
;)


Lol, were you in Pakistan when you sampled said products?

pcosmar
11-30-2010, 06:26 PM
Lol, were you in Pakistan when you sampled said products?

:D
Nope, Stationed in Hawaii. In the army. 1975.

damn I'm gettin' old

looked very much like this,
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9250/11087sdsc0333.jpg

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 06:32 PM
Ya that's where the first two are from, that site is blocked for me for whatever reason..


That's strange. But holy crap! I just found a picture of a girl I went to college with in VA on that same website. Should I tell this girl that someone posted a picture of her probably without her permission? Dayum.

oyarde
11-30-2010, 06:34 PM
That's strange. But holy crap! I just found a picture of a girl I went to college with in VA on that same website. Should I tell this girl that someone posted a picture of her probably without her permission? Dayum.

You should let her know . She may not care .

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 07:06 PM
:D
Nope, Stationed in Hawaii. In the army. 1975.

damn I'm gettin' old

looked very much like this,
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9250/11087sdsc0333.jpg

That looks way too tempting. I need to make a trip back to the homeland. :D

dannno
11-30-2010, 07:10 PM
That looks way too tempting. I need to make a trip back to the homeland. :D

Meh, I'm curing up a land race strain from that region and have plenty of good hash, I think I'll travel to Pakistan for some other reasons :p

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 07:29 PM
Meh, I'm curing up a land race strain from that region and have plenty of good hash, I think I'll travel to Pakistan for some other reasons :p

Yea, lol, maybe I'll just move to CA instead! Stuff here is hard to find.

heavenlyboy34
11-30-2010, 07:31 PM
The Pakistani ladies are very attractive as well . :)

+a zillion :)

Dr.3D
11-30-2010, 07:35 PM
:D
Nope, Stationed in Hawaii. In the army. 1975.

damn I'm gettin' old

looked very much like this,
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9250/11087sdsc0333.jpg

I see a rat turd and a rabbit turd resting on a bed of brown bread crumbs. :D

oyarde
11-30-2010, 09:48 PM
awww... as is my custom, I read the first and last pages to see if I should familiarize myself with the thread. I notice we went from making war to making love (or, well, thinking about it) :D

The Islamophobia is no more or less valid than the "they're going to take over!" talk about any other group. There's a whole lot of it going around. People can worry about who else is going to take them over, while happily ignoring the people at home who took them over years ago.

May be the first positive impact I have had on a thread recently . :D

PreDeadMan
11-30-2010, 09:55 PM
i'm more frightened of the us government than a bunch of muslim people in the middle east... al qaeda and the taliban aren't threats to your freedom your own GOVERNMENT IS....

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 10:08 PM
May be the first positive impact I have had on a thread recently . :D

Not discrediting your impact oyarde, but the thread's turnaround also has to do with the fact that Frank ran away. Guess he was out of bullshit links that his AIPAC handlers give him to post, which is surprising.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 10:15 PM
Not discrediting your impact oyarde, but the thread's turnaround also has to do with the fact that Frank ran away. Guess he was out of bullshit links that his AIPAC handlers give him to post, which is surprising.
ExPatPaki, I find it interesting you throw out the Jewish card. Those evil Jews!

I'm NOT the Mossad, an Israeli agent, an AIPAC member, apart of some Jewish Conspiracy, and I'm NOT Jewish.

Andrew-Austin
11-30-2010, 10:18 PM
Wow this thread was just one big train wreck. A lot of people not even willing to have discussion. You may disagree with Frank but for the first eight pages I read he was the only one actually talking instead of just throwing out rhetoric and insults.

No, radical Islam is not much of a threat or problem in the U.S, yes there are much bigger fish to fry, yes the neocons get carried away.. But some people seem ridiculously driven to apologia for Islam out of some misplaced duty to political correctness. You don't have to try and compensate for other people's irrational and carried away fear of Islam, by being so peachy and naive on the subject.

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 10:20 PM
ExPatPaki, I find it interesting you throw out the Jewish card. Those evil Jews!


Where did I even use the word Jew or Jewish in my post? An AIPAC member can also be an evangelical Christian. I once met an Afghan Muslim who donated to AIPAC.


I'm NOT the Mossad, an Israeli agent, an AIPAC member, apart of some Jewish Conspiracy, and I'm NOT Jewish.

So you're just a plain, boring, hateful moron who likes it when Israel bombs Muslims and Christians? Got it. Thanks.

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 10:21 PM
Wow this thread was just one big train wreck. A lot of people not even willing to have discussion. You may disagree with Frank but for the first eight pages I read he was the only one actually talking instead of just throwing out rhetoric and insults.

Since when is posting the same discredited bullshit links over and over again considered arguing or talking?



But some people seem ridiculously driven to apologia for Islam out of some misplaced duty to political correctness. You don't have to try and compensate for other people's irrational and carried away fear of Islam, by being so peachy and naive on the subject.

I have yet to see any evidence of that.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 10:23 PM
Since when is posting the same discredited bullshit links over and over again considered arguing or talking?
The links are not discredited.

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 10:24 PM
The links are not discredited.

Only in your simple mind Frank, only in your simple mind.

FrankRep
11-30-2010, 10:25 PM
Only in your simple mind Frank, only in your simple mind.
Insults do not prove your case.

ExPatPaki
11-30-2010, 10:27 PM
Insults do not prove your case.

Your repetitive postings of the same bullshit proves my case.

nobody's_hero
11-30-2010, 10:34 PM
yeah, what we have here is when two sides of a debate have absolutely no will power to alter their beliefs on any point.

But it doesn't matter, because that's not the purpose of the debate, to convince your opponents. You must convince the audience.

It would seem kind of funny if (for example—and a bad one—but the best one I can think of at the moment) John McCain faced Obama in a debate and was all like "Prove to me that you're right. I wanna see proof!". Does John McCain really want proof? Hardly. Obama wouldn't sway McCain, and McCain knows it.

So at this point, it wouldn't matter what Ex Pat Paki or FrankRep posted as sources. Each chooses to believe what they want to believe.

That's freedom. ;)

BlackTerrel
12-01-2010, 12:36 AM
Sharia Law?? I'm more worried about Christians, they have quite a violent history in this country. Christianity has set a precedents as the religion of hate in the US. It will take a long time for dem Muslims to catch up.

Man everytime we have a thread defending Muslims on RPF we always have a few posts bashing Christians for good measure.

I get it. Saying anything negative about Muslims is just about the worse crime anyone can commit and they are immediately an interventionist, want to kill all Muslims, a neocon and support nuclear war and dropping drones.

But attacking Christians is ok cause they kind of have it coming.

Brooklyn Red Leg
12-01-2010, 07:41 AM
Hmm I could only see these first two through google images, I think they might be blocked for me but hopefully they work out for everyone else..

http://pakistanigirls.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/selfshot.jpg

http://pakistanigirls.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sara.jpg

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT2pljuJWh_cY9RiOvglMsbIGvnkhi3R nSaCkO-VQVFzzV4xozt

Best thread post EVAR! MOAR! MOAR! MOAR!

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/Brooklyn_Red_Leg/019-Drooling-SuperEmoticonscom.gif

FrankRep
12-01-2010, 08:14 AM
Man everytime we have a thread defending Muslims on RPF we always have a few posts bashing Christians for good measure.

The Jews/Israel also get dragged into discussion and get bashed.

ExPatPaki
12-01-2010, 08:19 AM
The Jews/Israel also get dragged into discussion and get bashed.

You're lying again Frank, just like Jesus told you to. Jews were never brought up. There's lot of anti-Israel Jews as well.

FrankRep
12-01-2010, 08:27 AM
Not discrediting your impact oyarde, but the thread's turnaround also has to do with the fact that Frank ran away. Guess he was out of bullshit links that his AIPAC handlers give him to post, which is surprising.


You're lying again Frank, just like Jesus told you to. Jews were never brought up. There's lot of anti-Israel Jews as well.

AIPAC = American Israel Public Affairs Committee

Am I lying again, ExPatPaki?

Brooklyn Red Leg
12-01-2010, 08:52 AM
AIPAC = American Israel Public Affairs Committee

Come on Frank, you know better than that. AIPAC =/= Jewish. Iraeli =/= Jewish. Anti-Semite =/= Anti-Israel.

ExPatPaki
12-01-2010, 08:54 AM
AIPAC = American Israel Public Affairs Committee

Am I lying again, ExPatPaki?

Yes you are lying again as usual and its quite sad. AIPAC doesn't necessarily mean Jewish. It can also mean evangelical Christian or even Muslim. One famous Muslim author who is an AIPAC favorite is Fouad Ajami.

ExPatPaki
12-01-2010, 08:56 AM
Come on Frank, you know better than that. AIPAC =/= Jewish. Iraeli =/= Jewish. Anti-Semite =/= Anti-Israel.

Already explained that to him, Brooklyn Red. But Frank doesn't know how to read.

crazyfacedjenkins
12-01-2010, 09:24 AM
Man everytime we have a thread defending Muslims on RPF we always have a few posts bashing Christians for good measure.

I get it. Saying anything negative about Muslims is just about the worse crime anyone can commit and they are immediately an interventionist, want to kill all Muslims, a neocon and support nuclear war and dropping drones.

But attacking Christians is ok cause they kind of have it coming.

99.9999% of these "moral laws" that directly infringe on my civil liberties are from kooky Christians. The crusaders are the ones who scare the shit out of me. We need perspective when talking about Islam, it's such a small and irrelevant percentage of the population.

Besides, none of the bull shit "Muslim attacks" linked to by the Jesus freaks have anything to do with religion. They are purely retaliation for US bombings and invasion on foreign soil. If anything, I side with them over the US because the US is the perpetrator and had it coming.

FrankRep
12-01-2010, 10:36 AM
Human Rights Watch Calls on Indonesia to Overturn Shariah Laws (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/02/world/asia/02indo.html)


New York Times
December 1, 2010


JAKARTA, Indonesia — Human Rights Watch urged Indonesia on Wednesday to overturn Shariah laws in the conservative province of Aceh, saying the application of the legal code of Islam has resulted in widespread rights abuses.

The New York-based group said in a report (http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2010/12/01/policing-morality) that laws policing morality had resulted in violence and sexual abuse by the province’s Shariah police, known as the Wilayatul Hisbah, and by vigilante members of the public.

The laws run against “Indonesia’s own national laws and the constitution” and place Indonesia “in violation of its international human rights obligations, in particular the right to free expression, religious freedom, free association and privacy,” said Elaine Pearson, the deputy director of Human Rights Watch in Asia.

In particular, the group took issue with laws banning “khalwat,” or association between single or unrelated members of the opposite sex, as well as strict Islamic dress codes.

Enforcement of the khalwat law frequently results in detention of up to 24 hours in which men and women found together are often forced to marry and women are compelled to undergo invasive virginity tests, the report said. More than 800 people, including children, were detained last year under the khalwat law, which also carries punishments of caning and fines.

In one case this year, two members of the Wilayatul Hisbah were convicted in the rape of a 19-year-old woman who was arrested while riding on a motorbike with her boyfriend on a secluded road.

The group also said that more than 2,600 people were stopped last year under a law prohibiting un-Islamic dress. Although the wording of the law applies to both men and women, in practice it overwhelmingly singles out women, as well as the poor, the report said.

Shariah law in Aceh has also caused a rise in brutal vigilante justice by the public, with authorities routinely turning a blind eye to mob violence, it said.

Human Rights Watch called on the governor of Aceh, Irwandi Yusuf, to press the legislature to repeal the laws and urged the central government to file an appeal in Indonesia’s Supreme Court on the grounds that they violate the country’s nonsectarian constitution. Mr. Yusuf and his deputy, Muhammad Nazar, could not be reached for comment.

Shariah laws began to be applied in Aceh, a staunchly Islamic province, in 2001 as part of government attempts to end three decades of conflict between Jakarta and the separatist Free Aceh Movement. It is the only region of Indonesia to officially embrace Shariah, although some districts have implemented Islamic-inspired ordinances.

A stricter Shariah code that includes death by stoning for adulterers was passed by legislators last year but the governor has refused to sign it.

Syafruddin, a deputy chief of Aceh’s Wilayatul Hisbah, dismissed the Human Rights Watch report’s allegations of widespread abuse as inaccurate.

“In the law we need to talk about evidence. Who did it? What’s their name? When did the cases happen?” he said. “They don’t have anything concrete.”

Allegations that officers discriminated against women when enforcing Islamic dress codes were also wrong, he argued.


SOURCE:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/02/world/asia/02indo.html

pcosmar
12-01-2010, 10:44 AM
[


[B]SOURCE:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/02/world/asia/02indo.html

Is that an endorsement of interventionism?

ExPatPaki
12-01-2010, 10:45 AM
Syafruddin, a deputy chief of Aceh’s Wilayatul Hisbah, dismissed the Human Rights Watch report’s allegations of widespread abuse as inaccurate.

“In the law we need to talk about evidence. Who did it? What’s their name? When did the cases happen?” he said. “They don’t have anything concrete.”

Allegations that officers discriminated against women when enforcing Islamic dress codes were also wrong, he argued.


I would trust Syafruddin over HRW any day. What does this story have to do with the United States?

FrankRep
12-01-2010, 10:50 AM
Is that an endorsement of interventionism?

I've said over and over again that I'm a Non-interventionist.

Therefore, NO, this is NOT an "endorsement of interventionism" nor have I made a reference to any type of interventionism.

ExPatPaki
12-01-2010, 10:51 AM
I've said over and over again that I'm a Non-interventionist.

Therefore, NO, this is not an "endorsement of interventionism" nor have a made a reference to any type of interventionism.

Yeah, you just hate all Muslims and Arab Christians because Jesus tells you to. Even Muslims who are running their OWN affairs in their OWN countries.

pcosmar
12-01-2010, 10:53 AM
There needs to be more of this.

YouTube - President Ahmadinejad Meets Neturei Karta Rabbis - 9/24/2007 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-r04SQ97_Q)

And less fear-mongering bullshit.

Not all Jews are Zionist, Not all that oppose Israel hate Jews.
Arabs/Muslims are also sons of Abraham.

ExPatPaki
12-01-2010, 10:56 AM
Not all that oppose Israel hate Jews.


Exactly. I have dated a couple of Jewish girls in the past, very sweet and nice girls and I still keep in touch with them to this day. I have many Jewish friends, one who even served in Iraq.

BlackTerrel
12-05-2010, 10:28 PM
99.9999% of these "moral laws" that directly infringe on my civil liberties are from kooky Christians. The crusaders are the ones who scare the shit out of me. We need perspective when talking about Islam, it's such a small and irrelevant percentage of the population.

Besides, none of the bull shit "Muslim attacks" linked to by the Jesus freaks have anything to do with religion. They are purely retaliation for US bombings and invasion on foreign soil. If anything, I side with them over the US because the US is the perpetrator and had it coming.

I don't even know what to say to this.