PDA

View Full Version : We are winning, but why?




Michigan11
11-29-2010, 01:29 AM
Here is my personal opinion of why I think we are winning.

1. (time) We never shut up about what we know.

2. (money) We donate to those we believe will represent us well. (Ron, Amash, Rand, Glen Bradley, and many others)



What are your thoughts and experience?


I am anxious to find out what others have found that have worked and will add to this list but I'd like to narrow it down if at all possible. Keeping it simple....

Sola_Fide
11-29-2010, 01:33 AM
We are winning because Keyesianism is failing everywhere.

Michigan11
11-29-2010, 01:42 AM
We are winning because Keyesianism is failing everywhere.

Great point, and I'm wondering if this is a big part of it.

Dripping Rain
11-29-2010, 01:47 AM
We are winning because Keyesianism is failing everywhere.

+1776
the economy holds the biggest favor
we also all realize just as the neocons on hotair say that if the dollar collapses Ron Paul will be a shoe in for the presidency

Anti Federalist
11-29-2010, 01:48 AM
We're far from "winning" anything.

The only reason anybody is listening is because the state is failing.

If people were still flipping half million dollar tract homes and living it up on the debt gravy train and had jobs, we'd be nothing but a voice in the wilderness.

Most people don't give a fuck about war or lost liberty, unless they are trying to score cheap political points against "the other guy".

Michigan11
11-29-2010, 01:53 AM
We're far from "winning" anything.

The only reason anybody is listening is because the state is failing.

If people were still flipping half million dollar tract homes and living it up on the debt gravy train and had jobs, we'd be nothing but a voice in the wilderness.

Most people don't give a fuck about war or lost liberty, unless they are trying to score cheap political points against "the other guy".

I think you and the posters above are on to something here, keyns economics is failing, the state is failing, the economy is failing, so that is why we are winning?

YouTube - THESE CANS ARE DEFECTIVE !!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT3cGdLIHA4)

ForeverAlone
11-29-2010, 02:00 AM
We're far from "winning" anything.

The only reason anybody is listening is because the state is failing.

If people were still flipping half million dollar tract homes and living it up on the debt gravy train and had jobs, we'd be nothing but a voice in the wilderness.

Most people don't give a fuck about war or lost liberty, unless they are trying to score cheap political points against "the other guy".

This.

Does anybody realize how many progressives and socialists are out there?

Does anybody realize that things like Social Security, Medicare, and Welfare will NEVER go away? There are too many recipients and do-gooders that support these things for them ever to be abolished.

We are even close to winning and IMO, we're not winning.

I don't see the Federal Government shrinking any time soon. It's good to be enthusiastic, but it's even better to know what you're up against.

And for the people that think that change will happen when the economy collapses, remember that the change isn't likely to be towards more liberty.

Michigan11
11-29-2010, 02:19 AM
This.

Does anybody realize how many progressives and socialists are out there?

Does anybody realize that things like Social Security, Medicare, and Welfare will NEVER go away? There are too many recipients and do-gooders that support these things for them ever to be abolished.

We are even close to winning and IMO, we're not winning.

I don't see the Federal Government shrinking any time soon. It's good to be enthusiastic, but it's even better to know what you're up against.

And for the people that think that change will happen when the economy collapses, remember that the change isn't likely to be towards more liberty.

Yep I get all your points, and agree, but we can never give up. We will fight forever, even as all odds and everything is stacked against us. Even when it seems pointless to give, we give, or when all seem to have picked their prostitute, we choose to march on with our leader. It ain't right, but someday we will win it all.

Anti Federalist
11-29-2010, 02:20 AM
Yep I get all your points, and agree, but we can never give up. We will fight forever, even as all odds and everything is stacked against us.

That's what it takes.

cindy25
11-29-2010, 02:29 AM
are we winning?

2010 is the year of Obamacare, 1099s, TSA porn scans, 2011 will bring massive tax hike.

Michigan11
11-29-2010, 02:38 AM
are we winning?

2010 is the year of Obamacare, 1099s, TSA porn scans, 2011 will bring massive tax hike.

Well I guess that is what this thread is about now. Remember this is a war, not a battle. Have we not already won, if we know who we are, and what we are fighting for. Don't take this post as I'm trying to be somebody here, I just get it now. We have purpose, that is more than the other side has, therefore we already won. I know more shit is coming down on all of us from this gov... but we all know the only thing to do is to continue to push. Even if we don't win we win, but I know we will win.

Philhelm
11-29-2010, 02:40 AM
We don't have to beat them, we just have to fight them. Well, actually we do have to beat them, but you get the point.

roho76
11-29-2010, 07:29 AM
You can not stop an idea who's time has come. I am hopeful but with hope will come the biggest battle this planet has ever seen both ideologically and physically.


We are winning because Keyesianism is failing everywhere.

If we've learned anything it's that the government doesn't just give up on failing ideas. They just tell us it needs to be fixed because the (insert political team here) did it wrong and if you disagree then your put on the terrorist watch list.

It is my belief that we will see an attempt at a dictatorship before we see Liberty take hold in this country. They will never relinquish power willfully and without a fight.

dizi24
11-29-2010, 07:44 AM
What exactly do you define as winning?

vita3
11-29-2010, 08:44 AM
Our Gov is corrupt, broke, full of it & the two-party system is a joke, our MIC is out of control & can't stop eating up the World..more people get that, everyday.. How could we not be gaining SOME momentum?

Mike4Freedom
11-29-2010, 08:56 AM
The only hope this country has is if we suffer a hyperinflationary economic collapse.

If this happens the government will clamp down using all its power. If we can weather that storm long enough they will implode under there own weight.

tremendoustie
11-29-2010, 09:21 AM
Tyranny will probably get worse before we have liberty. The good news is, just like communism and monarchy, we've now seen that large democratic systems are inherently prone to tyranny.

Perhaps intelligent people will realize that "majority owns the minority" thinking is inherently flawed.

brandon
11-29-2010, 09:31 AM
Sorry I think we are losing, and losing badly. In fact, I don't think it is even possible to win.

Pericles
11-29-2010, 09:51 AM
We will have a better idea 6 months from now, as the House at the federal level either makes progress in turning back federal encroachments or fails to do so.

The natural course of events will take it from there.

hazek
11-29-2010, 10:19 AM
I'm sorry but I really don't see how we're winning.

Actually the only small win we can claim is getting Rand into the senate which I doubt it'll mean much because I don't know how much he as a single senator can actually achieve or will be willing to do.

Yes we are raising awareness, that's true. But despite more people concerned with the state of the country and realizing there's something wrong with the government you still have the biggest most awesome propaganda machine which is the MSM brainwashing people daily with disinformation and wrong solutions.


As far as I can tell, we are still being divided and conquered.

Rancher
11-29-2010, 10:37 AM
The big win so far is the number of people who are getting it keeps growing. ;)

hazek
11-29-2010, 10:52 AM
As I didn't mean to sound pessimistic nor realistic here's some food for thought:

YouTube - Will Smith shares his secrets of success (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5nVqeVhgQE)

StilesBC
11-29-2010, 11:12 AM
It may seem like we're winning because Republicans and Foxnews are pissed off on a daily basis. But once they get their big government conservatives back, you won't hear anything.

I'm afraid that 90% or more of those that appear to "get it" will be content with voting in whichever Republican candidate is running in their district. Zero progress is made. In fact, it's a regression, because after their candidate has won, they turn off their political awareness for a few years and conclude "job well done."

ChaosControl
11-29-2010, 11:47 AM
Here is my personal opinion of why I think we are winning.
We aren't winning. We're losing, badly.

farrar
11-29-2010, 12:33 PM
Well here is how I see it.

I'm one of those natural law nuts, and as the system deviates further and further from the natural law... and the state becomes more empowered... essentially it will become unsustainable and collapse. At this point natural law will return... until the state reemerges by some anomaly.

There is no winning or losing. The nature of man and the individual will inevitably overcome the state, and in time the state will once again overcome the individual.

I believe we are still descending into the state. We may be fighting it, if you want to call slowing the process down a win... I suppose we are... but ultimately we are doomed to the oppression of collectivism within our life times.

As we ascend into the extremes of libertarianism (such as anarco-capitalism) we will find that there is no where else for the masterminds of society to go, but to dive into the depths of authoritarianism. And as We sink into the extremes of authoritarianism we will find that there is no where else for the masterminds of society to go but to rise back into its prior state as a free society.

Occasionally, within the course of human events, the ship is turned before the extreme is met... but I think we will find this unlikely at least until we hit half way between the two ideologies, at which point whom ever garners the most momentum will lead society.

If I am to be optimistic, the best hope I think we have is to keep enough of the liberty movement alive that when a centrist society is formed, we will have the numbers to pull society back.

Remember... most of the population slowly follows the fringe. It is the radicals and liberals on all sides whom change the course of society. You do not need to change the 51% of the population... you only need to have more than whomever is opposing you. If authoritarians make up 5% of the population, you merely need 5.1% to beat them... and greater the difference the greater the momentum.

AuH20
11-29-2010, 12:35 PM
Here is my personal opinion of why I think we are winning.

1. (time) We never shut up about what we know.

2. (money) We donate to those we believe will represent us well. (Ron, Amash, Rand, Glen Bradley, and many others)



What are your thoughts and experience?


I am anxious to find out what others have found that have worked and will add to this list but I'd like to narrow it down if at all possible. Keeping it simple....

We're "winning" because the system is on the verge of a collapse.

Travlyr
11-29-2010, 12:52 PM
The reason we are winning is because as Dr. Ron Paul says, "Central Planning Doesn't Work", and "Freedom is Popular." The Internet has exposed the power elite worldwide just like Oz was exposed in the "Wizard of Oz". Once exposed, power dissipates like campfire smoke into the atmosphere. Realization sets-in. The truth sets us free.

The globalists are losing control because people are learning the truth. Their memes are not working as well this century as they did last. Now, if you are a TV watcher, or listen to media minions, then you may not be able to see it. And we have not won in any sense of the word, yet. We must remain vigilant and keep spreading the word, for repetition works.

However, the Federal Reserve recently announced QE2. That is a huge indicator of their position. They are pulling their last strings. They are running low on ammunition for the guns they've got, and the new gun (IMF's Bancor) is still an infant.

The dollar became the world's reserve currency not by accident, but by force. After WWII the military industrial complex used the American central bank (the Fed) to force people around the world to trade oil for dollars. The Empire grew. Dollars became popular around the world. That too is now waning. Countries around the globe are resisting more firmly now than ever before.

In order for the IMF's Bancor to become the world's reserve currency, then it has to be 100% backed by commodities of value, or if fiat, then a military force (probably NATO forces) would likely have to go around the world beating people up to force the new currency. They are trying, they are giving it their all, as evidenced by the media clowns, and the conflicts around the world.

But the Internet has brought with it a new enlightenment ... similar to the Gutenberg Press ... which exposes the fact that the "The Emperor Has No Clothes."

Philhelm
11-29-2010, 01:37 PM
Well I guess that is what this thread is about now. Remember this is a war, not a battle. Have we not already won, if we know who we are, and what we are fighting for. Don't take this post as I'm trying to be somebody here, I just get it now. We have purpose, that is more than the other side has, therefore we already won. I know more shit is coming down on all of us from this gov... but we all know the only thing to do is to continue to push. Even if we don't win we win, but I know we will win.

Exactly. In some ways, it's not a matter of winning, but one of simply not losing. Make no mistake, we face overwhelming odds, and are beset on all sides by the forces of tyranny. So long as the cause of liberty is held in the heart of at least one person, it can never be truly defeated. If we were to enter a truly Orwellian era, in all of it's sick, dublethinking glory, if I were to live as a bum, and secretly hand out copies of the Constitution to young men in women, then I will not have been truly defeated.

roho76
11-29-2010, 01:50 PM
Exactly. In some ways, it's not a matter of winning, but one of simply not losing. Make no mistake, we face overwhelming odds, and are beset on all sides by the forces of tyranny. So long as the cause of liberty is held in the heart of at least one person, it can never be truly defeated. If we were to enter a truly Orwellian era, in all of it's sick, dublethinking glory, if I were to live as a bum, and secretly hand out copies of the Constitution to young men in women, then I will not have been truly defeated.

I sense a hint of Ezekiel 25:17 in there. The path of the righteous man.....

YouTube - Ezekiel 25:17 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmvnXKRfdb8)

osan
11-29-2010, 04:04 PM
Here is my personal opinion of why I think we are winning.

What, precisely, is it you think we are winning?

As yet, we have won nothing of proven value. Paul, Amash, Bradley... these are yet to prove their significance. Do not misunderstand - I am glad they won, but until something more profound changes, my ecstasy remains limited.

I cannnot carry a concealed weapon without "government" permission. Well, I can, but if caught I will be tried and perhaps sent to prison for exercising a fundamental human right. My money is worth nothing - title to my home is not allodial, meaning I do not really own it. The list of violations, invasions, and trespasses against my inborn freedoms is far too long to list here.

When that list becomes foreshortened by at least 71% I will then consider us to have won something truly worth mentioning. Until then all I can do is keep swinging and remain hopeful that we will somehow come out of all this without legirons on our ankles.

Clairvoyant
11-29-2010, 04:17 PM
We haven't won anything.

Please stop confirming my distrust in politics by considering getting a handful of reps into office "winning" before they have accomplished ANYTHING.

When they are able to start repealing laws let me know.

Pericles
11-29-2010, 04:24 PM
We may be winning - Consider one of the better military thinkers Bill Lind:

In the 18th Century, Goethe’s romantic novel The Sorrows Of Young Werther led than more than one “sensible” young gentleman to emulate the protagonist and kill himself. I hope a happier end awaits Old Werther, the northern Virginia defense analyst who writes under that nom de plume for Chuck Spinney’s DNI web site. Just as DNI is one of the best places to find thoughtful material on Fourth Generation war, so Werther is perhaps that site’s most insightful contributor.

Werther’s December 30, 2004 column, “4GW and the Riddles of Culture,” is one of his best. Among its services is debunking the French Resistance, the only object in human history of which it can be said that the farther you get away from it, the larger it appears. As Werther, citing John Keegan, writes,
for most of the war, the 30-50 German occupation divisions took no part in anti-resistance activities…the number of actual anti-resistance security forces in France (the Feldsicherheitsdienst) probably did not exceed 6,500 at any
stage of the war. That in a country of over 40 million!

I would add that, other than during the Warsaw uprising of 1944, I do not know of any case where German occupation forces used bombers or artillery on cities they occupied, something U.S. forces now do routinely in Iraq.

Werther references World War II resistance movements to pose the question of why they did not amount to much while the Iraqi resistance now faces the U.S. with a very serious challenge indeed, in the form of Fourth Generation war. That, in turn, leads to another question: just what is Fourth Generation war? What lies behind its power to defeat state armed forces that vastly overmatch it in terms of resources, technology and technical skills? Werther concludes, 4GW is a “riddle of culture,” to paraphrase the anthropologist Marvin Harris. It is perhaps bound up with identity politics, absolutist religious claims, and the aspirations and resentments of the wretched of the earth. Why it should have arisen just when man conquered the moon, the atom, and achieved other triumphs of rationalism is
one of those paradoxes by which history is always surprising us.

As one of the founders of the concept of Fourth Generation war, I would like to take a stab at solving this riddle. The key to it, I think, is precisely “the triumphs of rationalism.” Rationalism, or more broadly modernity, believes in nothing. Belief is the opposite of rationalism. Fourth Generation war is triumphing over the products of rationalism because people who believe in something will always defeat people who believe in nothing at all.

If we look at those who are fighting Fourth Generation war, America’s opponents in Iraq and elsewhere, one characteristic they share is that they believe very powerfully in something. The “something” varies; it may be a religion, a gang, a clan or tribe, a nation (outside the West, nationalism is still alive) or a culture. But it is something worth fighting for, worth killing for and worth dying for. The key element is not what they believe in, but belief itself.

As Martin van Creveld points out in his key book on Fourth Generation war, The Rise and Decline of the State, up until World War I the West believed in something too. Its god was the state. But that god died in the mud of Flanders. After World War I, decent Western elites could no longer believe in anything: “the best lack all conviction.” Fascism and Communism offered new faiths, but in the course of the Twentieth Century they too proved false gods (all ideologies are counterfeit religions). Now, all that the West’s elites and the “globalist” elites elsewhere who mimic them can offer is “civil society.” Unlike real belief, civil society is not worth fighting for, killing for or dying for. It is far too weak a tea to serve in the global biker bar which is the Fourth Generation’s world of cultures in conflict.

Old Werther gets at the central fact when he writes that “the modern age that dawned in the Renaissance is no longer alive – World War II was the last gasp of modernity, industrialism and linearity.” The death of the Modern Age actually comes with World War I; in 1914, the West, which created modernity, put a gun to its head and blew its brains out. The ninety years since have merely been the thrashing of a corpse. The rise of Fourth Generation war, and its triumph over state armed forces in Iraq and elsewhere, mark the real beginning of the new century, a century that will be defined and dominated not by the West’s
ghost, nor by the Brave New World that is that ghost’s final, Hellish spawn, but by people who believe.

Anti Federalist
11-29-2010, 05:08 PM
Wow, that, if I could give more than +rep I would.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2680/4406561269_c15277d9f6_o.gif


We may be winning - Consider one of the better military thinkers Bill Lind:

In the 18th Century, Goethe’s romantic novel The Sorrows Of Young Werther led than more than one “sensible” young gentleman to emulate the protagonist and kill himself. I hope a happier end awaits Old Werther, the northern Virginia defense analyst who writes under that nom de plume for Chuck Spinney’s DNI web site. Just as DNI is one of the best places to find thoughtful material on Fourth Generation war, so Werther is perhaps that site’s most insightful contributor.

Werther’s December 30, 2004 column, “4GW and the Riddles of Culture,” is one of his best. Among its services is debunking the French Resistance, the only object in human history of which it can be said that the farther you get away from it, the larger it appears.

As Werther, citing John Keegan, writes, for most of the war, the 30-50 German occupation divisions took no part in anti-resistance activities…the number of actual anti-resistance security forces in France (the Feldsicherheitsdienst) probably did not exceed 6,500 at any
stage of the war. That in a country of over 40 million!

I would add that, other than during the Warsaw uprising of 1944, I do not know of any case where German occupation forces used bombers or artillery on cities they occupied, something U.S. forces now do routinely in Iraq.

Werther references World War II resistance movements to pose the question of why they did not amount to much while the Iraqi resistance now faces the U.S. with a very serious challenge indeed, in the form of Fourth Generation war. That, in turn, Iraqi resistance now faces the U.S. with a very serious challenge indeed, in the form of Fourth Generation war. That, in turn, leads to another question: just what is Fourth Generation war? What lies behind its power to defeat state armed forces that vastly overmatch it in terms of resources, technology and technical skills? Werther concludes, 4GW is a “riddle of culture,” to paraphrase the anthropologist Marvin Harris. It is perhaps bound up with identity politics, absolutist religious claims, and the aspirations and resentments of the wretched of the earth. Why it should have arisen just when man conquered the moon, the atom, and achieved other triumphs of rationalism is
one of those paradoxes by which history is always surprising us.

As one of the founders of the concept of Fourth Generation war, I would like to take a stab at solving this riddle. The key to it, I think, is precisely “the triumphs of rationalism.” Rationalism, or more broadly modernity, believes in nothing. Belief is the opposite of rationalism. Fourth Generation war is triumphing over the products of rationalism because people who believe in something will always defeat people who believe in nothing at all.

(There is the problem, right there. The modern, cosmopolitan, world weary, ennui filled, intellectual, metrosexual, western man believes in nothing strongly, and certainly believes in nothing strongly enough to fight or die for it. He won't even lift a finger to protest peacefully. - AF)

If we look at those who are fighting Fourth Generation war, America’s opponents in Iraq and elsewhere, one characteristic they share is that they believe very powerfully in something. The “something” varies; it may be a religion, a gang, a clan or tribe, a nation (outside the West, nationalism is still alive) or a culture. But it is something worth fighting for, worth killing for and worth dying for. The key element is not what they believe in, but belief itself.

As Martin van Creveld points out in his key book on Fourth Generation war, The Rise and Decline of the State, up until World War I the West believed in something too. Its god was the state. But that god died in the mud of Flanders. After World War I, decent Western elites could no longer believe in anything: “the best lack all conviction.” Fascism and Communism offered new faiths, but in the course of the Twentieth Century they too proved false gods (all ideologies are counterfeit religions). Now, all that the West’s elites and the “globalist” elites elsewhere who mimic them can offer is “civil society.” Unlike real belief, civil society is not worth fighting for, killing for or dying for. It is far too weak a tea to serve in the global biker bar which is the Fourth Generation’s world of cultures in conflict.

Old Werther gets at the central fact when he writes that “the modern age that dawned in the Renaissance is no longer alive – World War II was the last gasp of modernity, industrialism and linearity.” The death of the Modern Age actually comes with World War I; in 1914, the West, which created modernity, put a gun to its head and blew its brains out. The ninety years since have merely been the thrashing of a corpse. The rise of Fourth Generation war, and its triumph over state armed forces in Iraq and elsewhere, mark the real beginning of the new century, a century that will be defined and dominated not by the West’s
ghost, nor by the Brave New World that is that ghost’s final, Hellish spawn, but by people who believe.

low preference guy
11-29-2010, 05:09 PM
For those who disagree that we are winning (myself included), I think you'll agree that we are losing a LOT less badly.

Anti Federalist
11-29-2010, 05:29 PM
For those who disagree that we are winning (myself included), I think you'll agree that we are losing a LOT less badly.

Yeah, I'd agree to that.

It may not be stopped, certainly not reversed, but maybe we've gotten to the point of putting the brakes on.