The 5th of November should be framed historically [Archive]

a_european

10-21-2007, 02:21 AM

I think a big part of the Ron Paul (Grass Roots) Campaign is to look back at history, try to understand it and to draw the right conclusions from it. So i suggest to everybody to learn something about Guy Fawkes and the Gunpowder Plot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes

The man tried to kill the arch-enemy of America, the British King. It was an act of rebellion against the oppression of the catholics. I think thats the two main points an american should be able to sympathize with. (For myself i think the blowing of the parliament was not a good idea and immoral, while generally the murder of a tyrant can be justified and that the "Glorious Revolution" would be a much better fit, but whatever.)

Even the British don't think too badly of him:
"Fawkes was ranked 30th in the 2002 list of "100 Greatest Britons", sponsored by the BBC and voted for by the public. He was also included in a list of the 50 greatest people from Yorkshire."

So.. drop the movie V. Yes, i read the comic and watched the movie and i like both. Just drop it as the main theme. For most people it's just an action-movie. Think of Rudy having the Matrix-Donation Day.

Reality is so much more exciting than fiction.
To sum it up: The 5th of November is an awesome idea and has big potential. Please don't marginalize it with sticking it to something most people don't connect with.

ValidusCustodiae

10-21-2007, 02:34 AM

Thank you for this post and helping to put a little context with the whole idea. The people who overreacted about this wasted their energy. They could have just tried to understand the story. This is history we're talking about, and we are in the process of making more history. Remember, if Ron Paul wins the General Election, Nov. 5th will be his first day as President-Elect of the United States. This is a special day and one we do well to honor.

foofighter20x

10-21-2007, 02:35 AM

Another Reason to Donate on Nov 5th:

Nov 5, 1688: The Glorious Revolution kicked off in England with the landing of William of Orange at Brixham. This revolution spawned both the English Bill of Rights and the works of John Locke, whose ideas later became the founding principles behind the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States.

Ibgamer

10-21-2007, 02:39 AM

No people raising this much money on one day can only be seen as a bad thing...

Seriously though people, this will help the campaign substantially if we all go along with it. I for one am in, those that arnt, please reconsider.

foofighter20x

10-21-2007, 02:40 AM

Nov 5, 1872: Susan B. Anthony votes for president and is later arrested.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_B._Anthony#United_States_v._Susan_B._Anthony ):

For casting a vote in the presidential election held on November 5, 1872, in Rochester, New York, Anthony was arrested on November 18 and pled not guilty, asserting that the 14th amendment entitled her to vote because, unlike the original Constitution, it provides that all "persons" (which includes females) born in the US are "citizens" who shall not be denied the "privileges" of citizenship (which includes voting).

She was defended at trial by Matilda Joslyn Gage, who asserted that it was the United States that was truly on trial, not Anthony. At the trial, Anthony made her famous On Women's Right to Vote speech, which asserted that casting her vote in the previous presidential election was not a crime but the legal right of a United States citizen. Citing the Constitution, her speech was a strong attempt to persuade the federal government that she was not unlawful in her action, and if she were male, her behavior would have never been questioned.

However, her defense was all for naught. The judge, Supreme Court Associate Justice Ward Hunt, explicitly instructed the jury to deliver a guilty verdict, refused to poll the jury, delivered an opinion he had written before trial had even begun, and on June 18, 1873, sentenced her to pay a $100 fine. Anthony responded, "May it please your honor, I will never pay a dollar of your unjust penalty." She never did pay the fine, and the government never pursued her for nonpayment, for otherwise she would be able to file a habeas corpus, which would give her a chance to be heard by the appellate justices, and Justice Ward Hunt could not risk her convincing them

SouthernGuy15

10-21-2007, 02:54 AM

This is a fantastic idea and everyone who supports Ron Paul should participate!

http://www.thisnovember5th.com/

Ron Paul is the PEACEFUL version of the HERO "V" in "V" for Vendetta!

foofighter20x

10-21-2007, 03:02 AM

This is a fantastic idea and everyone who supports Ron Paul should participate!

http://www.thisnovember5th.com/

Ron Paul is the PEACEFUL version of the HERO "V" in "V" for Vendetta!

I still think it'd be better to tie Dr Paul in with John Locke and a real revolution that gave rights to the the people than with a fictional character whose main motivation was revenge.

a_european

10-21-2007, 03:04 AM

THANK YOU GUYS!

Ok let's see, we have:

Nov. 5th 1605 - Gunpowder Plot

Nov. 5th 1688 - Glorius Revolution

Nov. 5th 1872 - Susan B. Anthony is arrested for voting.

Nov. 5th 2008 - Day after the Election

Wow, this makes the 5th of November supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!

Would somebody make a flyer out of this? Maybe i'm trying for myself...

"Ron Paul is the PEACEFUL version of the HERO "V" in "V" for Vendetta!"
... What was the point of this thread again?

SouthernGuy15

10-21-2007, 04:23 AM

I still think it'd be better to tie Dr Paul in with John Locke and a real revolution that gave rights to the the people than with a fictional character whose main motivation was revenge.

I want revenge for our rights and liberties taken away. However, my desire for revenge will not be quenched by any type of violence. I am a peaceful person who respects the rights of others!

My revenge will be fully satisfied when Ron Paul peacefully becomes President!

SouthernGuy15

10-21-2007, 04:24 AM

People recognize "V" from "V for Vendetta." It should not be dropped.

foofighter20x

10-21-2007, 05:04 AM

I want revenge for our rights and liberties taken away. However, my desire for revenge will not be quenched by any type of violence. I am a peaceful person who respects the rights of others!

My revenge will be fully satisfied when Ron Paul peacefully becomes President!

"Vengeance is mine," sayeth the Lord. "I shall repay." :p

foofighter20x

10-21-2007, 05:05 AM

People recognize "V" from "V for Vendetta." It should not be dropped.

Also, nowhere did I say that V should be dropped. If you really feel that's what you want to do, then do it.

All I'm saying is that there are much better ideas out there than that one.

a_european

10-21-2007, 05:10 AM

wgadget

10-21-2007, 05:15 AM

Hmm. Well, I don't recognize it, and it's probably because I'm 47 years old. And as a homeschool mom, I prefer the actual history approach. (Did you know my kids are actually ENJOYING our Ron Paul unit study? I think they're learning more history than they ever have...and it's all RELEVANT.)

Now, I DO remember that 20 years ago November 5 I became a mother for the first time...LOL.

Just let it go, people. November 5 is a great day to add megabucks to Ron Paul's campaign. Just do it.

a_european

10-21-2007, 05:25 AM

Well, I don't recognize it, and it's probably because I'm 47 years old. And as a homeschool mom, I prefer the actual history approach.

Thanks, thats exactly what i mean. Maybe a flyer could really help to sell a donation on the 5th of November...

BTW. History IS interesting, if you have a good teacher ;)

paulicywonk

10-21-2007, 06:17 AM

The question becomes less what supporters choose to do with their internal marketing to the grassroots. Whatever gets people excited and to give is good. The real trick is how the campaign markets it to get others involved and appear separate.

Nefertiti

10-21-2007, 06:47 AM

Thanks foofighter20x, i wanted to post something similar.
SouthernGuy15, we don't want that you stop promoting this idea, but the "V for Vendetta" context goes well with the young, male, movie-loving crowd and very bad with others. It must be framed in a different way for older people and the media.

The older non-movie loving crowd isn't going to be swayed by these V allusions, but they aren't going to be turned off by them because like me, they will have no clue about the movie!

skilt

10-21-2007, 06:58 AM

Thanks foofighter20x, i wanted to post something similar.
SouthernGuy15, we don't want that you stop promoting this idea, but the "V for Vendetta" context goes well with the young, male, movie-loving crowd and very bad with others. It must be framed in a different way for older people and the media.

My father of 61 years has seen V for vendetta and absolutely loved it for the message that it communicates. He's recommending it to all his friends.

SK

DeadheadForPaul

10-21-2007, 08:09 AM

Corydoras

10-21-2007, 08:27 AM

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
We understand the story. We're telling you how the media will spin it

Let's hope the media won't notice. It's not a media event, anyway, it's about motivating supporters to donate.

Spirit of '76

10-21-2007, 10:48 AM

I think a big part of the Ron Paul (Grass Roots) Campaign is to look back at history, try to understand it and to draw the right conclusions from it. So i suggest to everybody to learn something about Guy Fawkes and the Gunpowder Plot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes

The man tried to kill the arch-enemy of America, the British King. It was an act of rebellion against the oppression of the catholics. I think thats the two main points an american should be able to sympathize with.

Yeah, except that his goal was to reinstate the Catholic monarchy, which had ruled just a few decades before under "Bloody Mary" Tudor, who was so fanatical in her religious hatred that she had hundreds of Protestants burned to death because of their religious beliefs and chased hundreds of others out of the country.

Many of our forefathers came here to get away from the petty European wars of religion, not to celebrate them. I for one will not look on any of these theocratical fanatics as heros.

That said, I have no problem with 5 November fundraising drive. Most Americans have no clue who Guy Fawkes is anyway, and most people will probably never even hear about the fundraising drive. If it motivates people to donate, it's fine by me.

Corydoras

10-21-2007, 11:02 AM

Many of our forefathers came here to get away from the petty European wars of religion, not to celebrate them.

For this reason, I think we should do the OPPOSITE of framing it historically. I think we should spin it as fun and fantasy and make-believe, let's pretend to be Hollywood action figures, and let's celebrate for a minute because we've been doing so much hard work on the streets.

a_european

10-21-2007, 02:11 PM

I for one will not look on any of these theocratical fanatics as heros.

They were definitly no heroes. But i think directly linking to "Bloody" Mary is a far stretch... i need to do some research on this. And how bad was James I. ?

Spirit of '76

10-21-2007, 02:27 PM

They were definitly no heroes. But i think directly linking to "Bloody" Mary is a far stretch... i need to do some research on this. And how bad was James I. ?

How is linking to Mary a stretch? She was a previous Catholic regent, just a few decades before. That is the type of monarchy Fawkes wanted to restore.

James had actually been fairly tolerant toward Catholics compared to some previous regents, and event allowed Catholics to participate at Court provided they swore an oath that the pope had no dominion over the king.

All of that ended when Fawkes tried to blow him up, along with the the rest of his family, the parliament, and a goodly number of women and children.

literatim

10-21-2007, 02:33 PM

The majority of the Christians here are probably Protestant. So why would we ever celebrate the attempt to overthrow a Protestant king by a Catholic?

francisco

10-21-2007, 03:38 PM

Folks objecting to the November 5 initiative because of the connection to hitorical violence are missing the IRONY of the situation.

Dr. Paul's philosophy at the deepest level is that force and Fraud are not are not the proper basis for human interaction. Unlike Guy Fawkes, the supporters of Ron Paul are taking PEACEFUL VOLUNTARY ACTION by openly planning to money-bomb the campaign.

This fits in very well with the "Ron Paul Re3VOLution" theme.

I'd like some slogans like "Join the Peaceful Revolution on Nov. 5" to be associated with the effort.

also

"Make sure you can tell your grandchildren about your part in the Nov. 5th Peaceful Revolution"

ladycat

10-21-2007, 06:27 PM

Folks objecting to the November 5 initiative because of the connection to hitorical violence are missing the IRONY of the situation.
LOL of course.

I for one am saving up my pennies to make the maximum possible donation on Nov. 5.

And I have NEVER donated to any other candidate. Not ever!

Nickel

10-23-2007, 06:37 AM

I've been wondering about the significance of November 5th. Since the suggestion is to donate $100, I thought this had to do with Susan B. Anthony and Women's suffrage:

From Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_5#Events)
1872 - Women's suffrage: In defiance of the law, suffragist Susan B. Anthony votes for the first time, and is later fined $100.

I guess I'll have to read a little about the Gunpowder Plot (seems a little obscure and unrelated though).

Oh well, I've signed on and how sweet is 7,300+!

belian78

10-23-2007, 07:19 AM

pengieh

10-23-2007, 07:29 AM

But there's this jackass on the myspace political forums that has said the 5th of Nov website is going to be hacked for some reason. Has anyone ever heard of '4chan'? Below is a link to the thread in which the statement is made. As I said, i dont know how much it amounts to, but i thought the people in charge of the website ought to know.

http://forums.myspace.com/t/2875107.aspx?fuseaction=forums.viewthread&PageIndex=110&SortOrder=0

4chan is an anime site where users post image macros anonymously and where there are a lot of pedophiles and closet pedophiles. They also hack websites 'ironically' and do it for the lulz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4chan

belian78

10-23-2007, 07:43 AM

4chan is an anime site where users post image macros anonymously and where there are a lot of pedophiles and closet pedophiles. They also hack websites 'ironically' and do it for the lulz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4chan

that definately sounds like this guy... he's all about the 'lulz'.

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 09:09 AM

People recognize "V" from "V for Vendetta." It should not be dropped.

Vendetta is the reason this entire idea needs to be dropped. I admit I was all for it at first like all of you, but then I thought about the people talking about bad media attention, and they're right.

If a substantial amount of money is raised on Nov.5th the media will have something to use to deal a deathblow to Ron Paul. This is giving them what they're looking for. Paul has a perfect voting record and has never slipped talking so they can't touch him, but this is going to give them enough leverage to possibly decimate his campaign.

You can't promote someone running to be President with Vendetta stabbing people.

That would be like Al Queda using Cinderella for a fundraiser- it just doesn't work because its bad rep.

PLEASE stop and think about this. Don't just jump to saying those of us against this are wrong like a lot of pro-war people are doing about Paul's opinions on that. We all know everyone should stop and consider his opinion, so you should use that same logic here as well.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 09:16 AM

Vendetta is the reason this entire idea needs to be dropped. I admit I was all for it at first like all of you, but then I thought about the people talking about bad media attention, and they're right.

If a substantial amount of money is raised on Nov.5th the media will have something to use to deal a deathblow to Ron Paul. This is giving them what they're looking for. Paul has a perfect voting record and has never slipped talking so they can't touch him, but this is going to give them enough leverage to possibly decimate his campaign.

You can't promote someone running to be President with Vendetta stabbing people.

That would be like Al Queda using Cinderella for a fundraiser- it just doesn't work because its bad rep.

PLEASE stop and think about this. Don't just jump to saying those of us against this are wrong like a lot of pro-war people are doing about Paul's opinions on that. We all know everyone should stop and consider his opinion, so you should use that same logic here as well.

I've been trying to get the point accross that a V or Fawkes assocation to Ron Paul is a horrible idea for over a week now, but people are too headstrong to realize that it is a bad idea. I hope that Ron Paul makes a ton of money each and every day but this association is horrible.

These people use the defense that our Founders were violent revolutionaries, but they just don't get that it is all about perspective.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 09:19 AM

I've been trying to get the point accross that a V or Fawkes assocation to Ron Paul is a horrible idea for over a week now, but people are too headstrong to realize that it is a bad idea. I hope that Ron Paul makes a ton of money each and every day but this association is horrible.

These people use the defense that our Founders were violent revolutionaries, but they just don't get that it is all about perspective.

The movie had powerful language and symbolism. Its a great idea to a lot of people. I'm sorry that you didn't like the movie, or don't find the message to be powerful, but to many its plenty good.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 09:24 AM

The movie had powerful language and symbolism. Its a great idea to a lot of people. I'm sorry that you didn't like the movie, or don't find the message to be powerful, but to many its plenty good.

I like the movie. But associating Ron Paul with a violent superhero is some kooky tin-foil hat shit.

Plus, Fawkes was just a Pawn in a plan for a catholic takeover of the thrown, he wasn't even remotely a "freedom fighter".

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 09:27 AM

The movie had powerful language and symbolism. Its a great idea to a lot of people. I'm sorry that you didn't like the movie, or don't find the message to be powerful, but to many its plenty good.

Well I did like the movie, its one of my favorites, but this is a bad idea. Surely you can see how the media will play this up to tearing apart Ron Paul right?

This really does have the potential to give the media what they need to deal a deathblow to Paul's campaign. If they can make us, Paul's support, out to be all just the lunatics in America, and wanting to destroy the government with violence, then that will lose Paul the election. Glenn Beck has already tried repeatedly to make us out to be radical idiots but he didn't have much of anything to use so he can't do it very well. And the entire media pretty much wants to be able to do that too. This association of Paul with Vendetta WILL allow them what they need to be able to do that.

There's a fine line between revolutionary freedom fighters and terrorists, and the media can play up the terrorist side of Vendetta, and they will.

This is not a matter of is the message of the movie good, or was the movie good, or how much money we could raise in one day, the matter is if Paul is associated with Vendetta that very well could be the end of his presidential campaign. Vendetta could destroy Paul's campaign just like he did Parliament lol.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 09:30 AM

Well I did like the movie, its one of my favorites, but this is a bad idea. Surely you can see how the media will play this up to tearing apart Ron Paul right?

This really does have the potential to give the media what they need to deal a deathblow to Paul's campaign. If they can make us, Paul's support, out to be all just the lunatics in America, and wanting to destroy the government with violence, then that will lose Paul the election. Glenn Beck has already tried repeatedly to make us out to be radical idiots but he didn't have much of anything to use so he can't do it very well. And the entire media pretty much wants to be able to do that too. This association of Paul with Vendetta WILL allow them what they need to be able to do that.

There's a fine line between revolutionary freedom fighters and terrorists, and the media can play up the terrorist side of Vendetta, and they will.

This is not a matter of is the message of the movie good, or was the movie good, or how much money we could raise in one day, the matter is if Paul is associated with Vendetta that very well could be the end of his presidential campaign. Vendetta could destroy Paul's campaign just like he did Parliament lol.

Now he'll just say that you are a coward and are afraid of the media. "Are you going to let the media tell you what you can and can't do?"

Ozwest

10-23-2007, 09:33 AM

Vendetta is the reason this entire idea needs to be dropped. I admit I was all for it at first like all of you, but then I thought about the people talking about bad media attention, and they're right.

If a substantial amount of money is raised on Nov.5th the media will have something to use to deal a deathblow to Ron Paul. This is giving them what they're looking for. Paul has a perfect voting record and has never slipped talking so they can't touch him, but this is going to give them enough leverage to possibly decimate his campaign.

You can't promote someone running to be President with Vendetta stabbing people.

That would be like Al Queda using Cinderella for a fundraiser- it just doesn't work because its bad rep.

PLEASE stop and think about this. Don't just jump to saying those of us against this are wrong like a lot of pro-war people are doing about Paul's opinions on that. We all know everyone should stop and consider his opinion, so you should use that same logic here as well.

Please explain how Faux is going to explain to their viewers the connection between a movie, Guy Fawkes, and campaign contributions, in a sound bite, without looking stupid... Not easy enough. Too complicated for their audience.

paulitics

10-23-2007, 09:34 AM

I like the movie. But associating Ron Paul with a violent superhero is some kooky tin-foil hat shit.

Plus, Fawkes was just a Pawn in a plan for a catholic takeover of the thrown, he wasn't even remotely a "freedom fighter".

I'm going to have to agree with this. If we manage to break an election fundraising record, I believe it will make headlines. Unfortunately I disagree with the promoters, in that it will be good coverage. I think that is an awfully naive position to take. The media is looking for anything, but this time we are handing it on a silver platter.

Now we have Nov 5th banners on sites like stormfront, etc. Its not looking good. The average guy who is not movie obsessed might get completely turned off by this and start dissaciating himself from the movement.
Not only that but I think it is interefering with our Oct fundraising. When you have people saying that Nov 5th is more important than the campaign's goals, and what RP wants, there is a problem.

NinjaPirate

10-23-2007, 09:34 AM

Didn't we already span out the theme to whatever you want it to be?? There are other videos on the site. And a Ron Paul girl video should be on there soon!

kylejack

10-23-2007, 09:35 AM

kylejack

10-23-2007, 09:37 AM

I'm going to have to agree with this. If we manage to break an election fundraising record, I believe it will make headlines.

We will not. Romney raised $6 million in one day. We're not going to get anywhere near that.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 09:39 AM

Again, George Washington was a violent super-hero.

Again, it is all about perception.

People view Washington more or less as a war hero/first president.

There is a difference between a actual war hero and a ficticious vengeful superhero.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 09:40 AM

Again, it is all about perception.

People view Washington more or less as a war hero/first president.

There is a difference between a actual war hero and a ficticious vengeful superhero.
Perhaps you didn't see the movie, but V is seen by the people as a hero, and the audience generally feels the same way about his character.

Ozwest

10-23-2007, 09:42 AM

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 09:43 AM

Perhaps you didn't see the movie, but V is seen by the people as a hero, and the audience generally feels the same way about his character.

^
Hopeless, and doesn't get the point.

KewlRonduderules

10-23-2007, 09:44 AM

there are over 7000 people signed up for that day to contribute.

I see nothing wrong with it.

We are not endorsing any violence by donating on the 5th. The idea behind November 5th is just symbolism- not about violence but about a message of freedom/liberty, an awareness of the curbing of these freedoms, and our right as Americans to stand up peacefully against the establishment.

V was just one person. However, the rest of the population (for the most part) did not engage in violence in the movie (especially at the end of the movie).

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 09:45 AM

Seems to me that many of the same people carping about the Rudy-Ferry beatup are the same ones attacking this project. The only "blowback" that occured then, was the fallout on this forum and the same thing is gonna happen this time... Except, a lot of you are going to have egg on your face when the donations start skyrocketing.

I'm not saying that there won't be donations on the 5th. I hope their will be. I just hope that there are no MSM articles with both V for Vendetta (or Fawkes) and Ron Paul mentioned in them. If they do it won't be good.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 09:46 AM

^
Hopeless, and doesn't get the point.
No, you don't get the point. The point is that you're more worried about a tie-in to a fictitious movie that featured a violent revolutionary fighting an authoritarian government than you are a tie-in to an actual real-life violent revolutionary fighting an authoritarian government.

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 09:47 AM

Didn't we already span out the theme to whatever you want it to be?? There are other videos on the site. And a Ron Paul girl video should be on there soon!

(Shakes head in despair and frustration)

Yeah a Ron Paul girl video will make everything even better! There's nothing to worry about now for sure!

Come on people is this really that hard to understand?

Fox HATES Ron Paul. Fox wants to stop Ron Paul from winning any way possible.
Fox is trying to figure out how to stop Paul. Fox finds no way to stop Paul.

Nov.5th comes and Paul gets a ton of money because of a fundraiser based on a violent movie.

Fox finds their way to stop Ron Paul! Hannity and O'reilly throw the biggest baddest Neo-Con victory party the world has ever seen!

Seriously its not hard to understand why this is horrible, and has the potential to END Paul's chance of getting elected. You can't associate a Presidential candidate with someone who stabs people. Period.

And it doesn't matter if this is about Fawkes, the election date, or whatever because since Vendetta strongly pushed the 5th of November THAT is what the media will use and portray despite anything we do, and that is why we MUST NOT GO ON WITH THIS.

KewlRonduderules

10-23-2007, 09:51 AM

I think regardless what we do, we will and are going to be labeled as fringe supporters. I don't think there is anyway around it.

The best thing to do is spread the message about Dr. Paul.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 09:54 AM

(Shakes head in despair and frustration)

Yeah a Ron Paul girl video will make everything even better! There's nothing to worry about now for sure!

Come on people is this really that hard to understand?

Fox HATES Ron Paul. Fox wants to stop Ron Paul from winning any way possible.
Fox is trying to figure out how to stop Paul. Fox finds no way to stop Paul.

Nov.5th comes and Paul gets a ton of money because of a fundraiser based on a violent movie.

Fox finds their way to stop Ron Paul! Hannity and O'reilly throw the biggest baddest Neo-Con victory party the world has ever seen!

Seriously its not hard to understand why this is horrible, and has the potential to END Paul's chance of getting elected. You can't associate a Presidential candidate with someone who stabs people. Period.

And it doesn't matter if this is about Fawkes, the election date, or whatever because since Vendetta strongly pushed the 5th of November THAT is what the media will use and portray despite anything we do, and that is why we MUST NOT GO ON WITH THIS.
The die is cast, its already going to happen. Fox News already portrays Ron Paul supporters as nuts (Hannity: "Your nutty supporters protest me every time I go to speak somewhere!") so we may as well have the money too.

It is going to happen.

God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.
Amen.

This is going to happen. Work on how to spin it, because you can't stop the 7K people that have already signed up with forum topics that the vast majority of the 7K will never ever read.

paulitics

10-23-2007, 09:55 AM

I think regardless what we do, we will and are going to be labeled as fringe supporters. I don't think there is anyway around it.

The best thing to do is spread the message about Dr. Paul.

there is a big difference though in the media spinning their garbage to make us look like fringe. The Ron Paul phenomonan is somewhat of a backlash against this. With this V day thing, we actually become fringe, and seal our own fate.

KewlRonduderules

10-23-2007, 09:55 AM

I have an idea.

I think what should be added to the disclaimer- something about not supporting or condoning any violence to promote the Ron Paul Revolution.

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 09:56 AM

tfelice

10-23-2007, 09:57 AM

(Shakes head in despair and frustration)

Yeah a Ron Paul girl video will make everything even better! There's nothing to worry about now for sure!

Come on people is this really that hard to understand?

Fox HATES Ron Paul. Fox wants to stop Ron Paul from winning any way possible.
Fox is trying to figure out how to stop Paul. Fox finds no way to stop Paul.

Nov.5th comes and Paul gets a ton of money because of a fundraiser based on a violent movie.

Fox finds their way to stop Ron Paul! Hannity and O'reilly throw the biggest baddest Neo-Con victory party the world has ever seen!

Seriously its not hard to understand why this is horrible, and has the potential to END Paul's chance of getting elected. You can't associate a Presidential candidate with someone who stabs people. Period.

And it doesn't matter if this is about Fawkes, the election date, or whatever because since Vendetta strongly pushed the 5th of November THAT is what the media will use and portray despite anything we do, and that is why we MUST NOT GO ON WITH THIS.

It's not just Fox we have to be concerned with. Ron Paul is in a unique situation that the other candidates do not face.

The liberal media wants to destroy the Paul campaign, because they know Paul is the only GOP candidate that can defeat Hillary. The neo-con media wants to destory the Paul campaign because they do not want to lose their stranglehold on the GOP. Both sides are searching for any opportunity to discredit Paul.

Nelson Rockefeller's rumored affair, George Romney's "brainwashing" comment, Ed Muskie crying speech, Jesse Jackson's "Hymietown" incident, Gary Hart's "Monkey Business", Michael Dukakis' tank photo, Pat Buchanan's racist allegations and Howard Dean's scream are just some examples how one small incident can bring down a campaign with upward momentum. Fortunately, we don't have to worry much about Dr. Paul slipping up and doing something to derail his own campaign, but we do have to be concerned about the unchecked actions of others and how they may hurt the campaign.

All it takes is one story, blown out of proportion by both the liberal media & the neo-con media and this campaign could be sunk.

NinjaPirate

10-23-2007, 09:58 AM

And thats exactly why we cannot have bad media coverage about Ron Paul.

Its already a longshot with the media blocking him out.

So if its a long shot now just WITHOUT the media, how long of a shot do you people think it will be with the media gaining the ability to be AGAINST Paul?

Because that's what this is doing, giving the media something bad to say about Paul so that they finally have a way to attack him, and a new option aside from just censoring him basically.

They will find dirt on us no matter what we do. We can as straight arrow as we want, but the haters will find some way to twist the truth. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's not worth losing sleep over.

Ozwest

10-23-2007, 09:59 AM

paulitics

10-23-2007, 10:00 AM

It's not just Fox we have to be concerned with. Ron Paul is in a unique situation that the other candidates do not face.

The liberal media wants to destroy the Paul campaign, because they know Paul is the only GOP candidate that can defeat Hillary. The neo-con media wants to destory the Paul campaign because they do not want to lose their stranglehold on the GOP. Both sides are searching for any opportunity to discredit Paul.

Nelson Rockefeller's rumored affair, George Romney's "brainwashing" comment, Ed Muskie crying speech, Jesse Jackson's "Hymietown" incident, Gary Hart's "Monkey Business", Michael Dukakis' tank photo, Pat Buchanan's racist allegations and Howard Dean's scream are just some examples how one small incident can bring down a campaign with upward momentum. Fortunately, we don't have to worry much about Dr. Paul slipping up and doing something to derail his own campaign, but we do have to be concerned about the unchecked actions of others and how they may hurt the campaign.

All it takes is one story, blown out of proportion by both the liberal media & the neo-con media and this campaign could be sunk.

pretty much, and it will set the movement back. All of this hard work, gone.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:00 AM

Its already a longshot with the media blocking him out.

So if its a long shot now just WITHOUT the media, how long of a shot do you people think it will be with the media gaining the ability to be AGAINST Paul?

Because that's what this is doing, giving the media something bad to say about Paul so that they finally have a way to attack him, and a new option aside from just censoring him basically.

They can attack him all they want as long as they keep saying his name. "Ron Paul bla bla bla Ron Paul bla bla bla Ron Paul bla bla bla Ron Paul bla bla bla bla bla". People will ask themselves who this Ron Paul fellow is, look him up, and fall in love. I welcome their attacks, because name recognition remains our largest hurdle, and that's helped best by any media coverage, positive or negative, and by putting more ammunition in Ron Paul's pockets with fund-raisers.

The media was on full attack after the Rudy blowback incident, and Ron Paul's campaign exploded!

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 10:01 AM

I have an idea.

I think what should be added to the disclaimer- something about not supporting or condoning any violence to promote the Ron Paul Revolution.

Yeah, I can already see Beck's show on Nov.5th or 6th.

He shows Paul saying some agency that needs to be done away with, then cuts to a scene from Vendetta with him killing people, then another scene of Paul naming another agency, then another scene of Vendetta blowing up something, and then some scene of Paul saying something about the entire federal gov., and then the scene of Parliament blowing up. And then at the end he says "But don't worry, the Ron Paul Revolution put a disclaimer up saying they don't condone violence.

How can you people not get how bad the media will make Ron Paul look with VENDETTA? VENDETTA people! Remember that masked guy in that violent movie that stabbed people and blew up buildings?

NinjaPirate

10-23-2007, 10:03 AM

Where does it say on the Nov 5th page that the theme is based on Guy Fawkes/V for Vendetta? There's several videos on the site not related to Guy Fawkes/V

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 10:05 AM

In 4 or 5 days they have 7,500 pledges. The amount of donations will total$750,000.00 if each person donates $100.00. If pledges continue at the same rate, in eleven days they will have about $2,250,000.00 in donations. Maybe some of you should put up or shut up.

Well then that means the campaign is going to receive media damage shortly like never before.

In the words of Shawn Hannity "We haven't even begun to fight yet."

If we get $1 million donated Nov.5th, the leverage the media will gain with this story will do incredible damage to Ron Paul's reputation.

Paul will probably even be asked about why his campaign was associated with Vendetta in a debate more than likely, and he will have to waste time coming up with an answer that God Himself would have a hard time thinking of to save our ship from the media's attacks.

Brinck Slattery

10-23-2007, 10:06 AM

people also have the option of putting up and not shutting up. The V thing will mean bad press. Hot Air has now done 2 hit pieces on Ron Paul for 1) his supporters using "V for Vendetta" and Guy Fawkes to rally fundraising and 2) using the ads that are apparently on Stormfront (!) which include the "V for Vendetta" stuff.

Just think carefully about how what you do reflects on our candidate.

And remember, since the Guy Fawkes thing is somewhat obscure, people will believe whatever the media says about it. And as tfelice said, remember the Dean scream, the Dukakis moment, there are plenty of small things that can blow a campaign. And we're not here to circle-jerk about how cool comics are, we're here to try to win a primary election, then go on to win the general election.

And before anyone accuses me of being a naysayer, do-nothing, etc., I was out waving signs this weekend, I was at the NYC rally, I'm working on getting a permanent spot for the grassroots in southwest CT and starting a PAC. :D So, yes, I am being proactive, and I think it is proactive to discuss and bring to light issues like this "V for Vendetta" association and how it will reflect on the campaign.

EDIT: Addendum - the ferry thing in Michigan was AWESOME. There is a qualitative difference between a bunch of energetic, flesh and blood supporters on a boat taunting Mr. I'm so Brave I'm the King of 9/11 and an anonymous website with references to Guy Fawkes and a bunch of people in scary, anonymous masks. Do you see the difference between these two situations?

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:06 AM

Nelson Rockefeller's rumored affair, George Romney's "brainwashing" comment, Ed Muskie crying speech, Jesse Jackson's "Hymietown" incident, Gary Hart's "Monkey Business", Michael Dukakis' tank photo, Pat Buchanan's racist allegations and Howard Dean's scream are just some examples how one small incident can bring down a campaign with upward momentum.
All examples of something a candidate or his official campaign staff [allegedly or actually] did, not some random supporters.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 10:06 AM

No, you don't get the point. The point is that you're more worried about a tie-in to a fictitious movie that featured a violent revolutionary fighting an authoritarian government than you are a tie-in to an actual real-life violent revolutionary fighting an authoritarian government.

First, when people hear the term "violent revolutionary", they are more likely to think of someone like Che Guevara, then the American Revolution. It isn't to say that the American Revolution wasn't violent, it just isn't the mindset that people are in about things. People don't really think of Washington as a violent man, they think of him as a war hero. Again, perception.

So why not use an association that has the least potential for media backlash, like actually associating him with the founders. Something solid that can't be refuted rather than some fictitious guy with a mask and cape that many will think is kind of kooky.

I know you are trying to associate Paul with the themes of V for Vendetta. But it is a violent movie none the less. And associating any candidate with violence is a bad idea if you want them to win in 2008. V for Vendetta and Fawkes are not the founders and the perceptions that people have are TOTALLY different.

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 10:07 AM

Where does it say on the Nov 5th page that the theme is based on Guy Fawkes/V for Vendetta? There's several videos on the site not related to Guy Fawkes/V

Hmmm, maybe in the one video where it clearly says "V stands for the victory of Ron Paul!" and its showing all kinds of Vendetta stuff?

Or maybe the other 1000 references to Vendetta?

Or maybe the dark theme of the site that looks like some Al Queda recruiting site?

Idk, you choose.

Don't worry though, if you choose none of the above, the media will find Vendetta anywhere and everywhere they want to.

NinjaPirate

10-23-2007, 10:08 AM

All examples of something a candidate or his official campaign staff [allegedly or actually] did, not some random supporters.

True true.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:08 AM

If we get $1 million donated Nov.5th, the leverage the media will gain with this story will do incredible damage to Ron Paul's reputation.
I'm glad to hear that you're hoping for a small donation day on November 5th, because it crystalizes my opposition to what you're saying so much more.

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:09 AM

In 4 or 5 days they have 7,500 pledges. The amount of donations will total$750,000.00 if each person donates $100.00. If pledges continue at the same rate, in eleven days they will have about $2,250,000.00 in donations. Maybe some of you should put up or shut up.

That seems to be your answer to everything doesn't it? First off all your have now is subscribers you don't have actual donations. Second, you and your crowd can derail any potential negative press this could stir up by simply emailing your subscribers and changing the date to coincide with the close of this month and the completion of the Oct fundraising goal.

If your crowd does the wise thing you will be appplauded. We will all say how good a job you did raising funds. You'll get all the glory you want. But if you drag this thing further, and the campaign is damaged by your actions, you can look to your inability to be flexible and your insistence to not listen to the advice of others as the reason the campaign was hurt.

No amount of donations can offset the potential bad press that can come from this.

KewlRonduderules

10-23-2007, 10:09 AM

people also have the option of putting up and not shutting up. The V thing will mean bad press. Hot Air has now done 2 hit pieces on Ron Paul for 1) his supporters using "V for Vendetta" and Guy Fawkes to rally fundraising and 2) using the ads that are apparently on Stormfront (!) which include the "V for Vendetta" stuff.

Just think carefully about how what you do reflects on our candidate.

And remember, since the Guy Fawkes thing is somewhat obscure, people will believe whatever the media says about it. And as tfelice said, remember the Dean scream, the Dukakis moment, there are plenty of small things that can blow a campaign. And we're not here to circle-jerk about how cool comics are, we're here to try to win a primary election, then go on to win the general election.

And before anyone accuses me of being a naysayer, do-nothing, etc., I was out waving signs this weekend, I was at the NYC rally, I'm working on getting a permanent spot for the grassroots in southwest CT and starting a PAC. :D So, yes, I am being proactive, and I think it is proactive to discuss and bring to light issues like this "V for Vendetta" association and how it will reflect on the campaign.

I think they need to add to the disclaimer- The grassroots movement does not endorse, support, or condone any violence whatsoever to promote the message of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:11 AM

All examples of something a candidate or his official campaign staff [allegedly or actually] did, not some random supporters.

The point is that it only takes one story blown out of proportion to derail a campaign. What would you prefer Paul talk about the week following Nov 5: his policies or how he's not responsible for the actions of the grassroots?

NinjaPirate

10-23-2007, 10:11 AM

Hmmm, maybe in the one video where it clearly says "V stands for the victory of Ron Paul!" and its showing all kinds of Vendetta stuff?

Or maybe the other 1000 references to Vendetta?

Or maybe the dark theme of the site that looks like some Al Queda recruiting site?

Idk, you choose.

Don't worry though, if you choose none of the above, the media will find Vendetta anywhere and everywhere they want to.

Only 1 Vendetta video. They can only speculate what the true theme behind the 5th is because it isn't based on any particular one. Some are doing it for the V theme, others are doing it for the Back to the Constitution theme. People are doing it for varying reasons.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:11 AM

I also think you guys are drastically over-estimating the influence of cable news shows. Nobody watches them. Trust me, this will not make NBC Nightly News, because its a stupid story.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 10:12 AM

I think they need to add to the disclaimer- The grassroots movement does not endorse, support, or condone any violence whatsoever to promote the message of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Considering even use a disclaimer like that just shows how stupid the preceding message is in the first place. Think about it.

KewlRonduderules

10-23-2007, 10:13 AM

Considering even use a disclaimer like that just shows how stupid the preceding message is in the first place. Think about it.

Well, a lot of people are talking about how it is violent?

Soooooo?

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:13 AM

The point is that it only takes one story blown out of proportion to derail a campaign. What would you prefer Paul talk about the week following Nov 5: his policies or how he's not responsible for the actions of the grassroots?

$10 million dollars.

paulitics

10-23-2007, 10:13 AM

First, when people hear the term "violent revolutionary", they are more likely to think of someone like Che Guevara, then the American Revolution. It isn't to say that the American Revolution wasn't violent, it just isn't the mindset that people are in about things. People don't really think of Washington as a violent man, they think of him as a war hero. Again, perception.

So why not use an association that has the least potential for media backlash, like actually associating him with the founders. Something solid that can't be refuted rather than some fictitious guy with a mask and cape that many will think is kind of kooky.

I know you are trying to associate Paul with the themes of V for Vendetta. But it is a violent movie none the less. And associating any candidate with violence is a bad idea if you want them to win in 2008. V for Vendetta and Fawkes are not the founders and the perceptions that people have are TOTALLY different.

because George Wahington is not a dark comic book hero. The reason this appears cultish, is because it is. All reason has been cast aside. The promoters can't even admit to their being ambiguity in the guy's character. The guy tortured the Nathalie Portman character, whore a sinister looking mask, and sliced people up.

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 10:14 AM

If you people don't change this date you are going to do one of two things:

1. Hurt Paul's campaign by giving the media what they need to attack Ron Paul extremely powerfully

2. Cause Ron Paul to LOSE the election due to incredibly bad media reports about him

Are you willing to risk either of those simply to stick to this stupid date?

Why can't you post on that stupid terrorist styled site that the date is changed to Oct.31st, like the OFFICIAL campaign would want you to do?

Then we would gain an extra 500,000- 1 million for OCTOBER, and actually get closer to meeting the monthly goal, which is like 34987134 times more important than the 5th of November.

Everyone that opposes this idea needs to move swiftly to start putting out the fact that this fundraising push needs to stop, and that everyone needs to donate before the end of October instead of on Nov.5th. We need to get as many people that planned to donate on the 5th to donate any other time as we possibly can so that maybe we can prevent this from happening, and save Paul from the horrifying media coverage that is going to result from this.

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:15 AM

$10 million dollars.

That's still to be seen. Subscribers does not mean donations. Nonetheless, could anyone affiliated with this website explain why they cannot move the date to the 31st? What difference would it make to them? Is this about rasing funds and meeting campaign goals or is it about paying homage to Nov 5 and some obscure movie?

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:17 AM

That's still to be seen. Subscribers does not mean donations. Nonetheless, could anyone affiliated with this website explain why they cannot move the date to the 31st? What difference would it make to them? Is this about rasing funds and meeting campaign goals or is it about paying homage to Nov 5 and some obscure movie?

10/31 will be used to promote the movie with flyers. Guess what kind of mask I'll be wearing.

Ohhh, the horror. Besides, why would we associate the campaign with a violent night filled with ghouls, ghosts and serial killers like Halloween? Ohhhhh, the horror, they'll think we support vampires and mummies and Freddy Krueger!

Brinck Slattery

10-23-2007, 10:18 AM

Justinc - the fundraising push doesn't need to stop. It has momentum and a lot of people behind it. Now, if the people who organized the website could make a few tweaks to make it a) less prone to being a media fiasco and b) more conducive to meeting the official campaign's goals, that would be fantastic.

The campaign sets goals for a reason - this isn't fuzzy bunny, feel-good estimation shit. They need the money.

I don't think this one event would cause Paul to lose the election, but it will be a prominent example in the litany of how Paul supporters are "crazy," and you don't want to be crazy, do you? You want to vote like a normal, non-crazy person, right?

EDIT: Kylejack, Halloween is the PERFECT night to go around promoting Ron Paul in a V mask. No one will think you're a psychopath, because everyone's in costume. When you bust out the cosplay on a night other then Halloween, people think you're crazy.

Ozwest

10-23-2007, 10:19 AM

Well then that means the campaign is going to receive media damage shortly like never before.

In the words of Shawn Hannity "We haven't even begun to fight yet."

If we get $1 million donated Nov.5th, the leverage the media will gain with this story will do incredible damage to Ron Paul's reputation.

Paul will probably even be asked about why his campaign was associated with Vendetta in a debate more than likely, and he will have to waste time coming up with an answer that God Himself would have a hard time thinking of to save our ship from the media's attacks.

If your going to continually be subjugated by these wankers that's your choice. This donation drive is not the "scream" moment some of you are fearing. Don't be so panicked by the media and the shattered Republican Party, and understand that you're going to have think outside of the square if you're going to get this man elected! Play by the rules, alienate new-comers, and argue amongst yourselves. Neo-cons win again!

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 10:19 AM

Only 1 Vendetta video. They can only speculate what the true theme behind the 5th is because it isn't based on any particular one. Some are doing it for the V theme, others are doing it for the Back to the Constitution theme. People are doing it for varying reasons.

HA!

First off, people like SHAWN HANNITY speculate about the reason for something? Hell, they CREATE reasons for things! And with Vendetta being there they will know!

And secondly, all you have to do is type in Ron Paul November 5th and you get like 5-20 videos that show Vendetta more than Ron Paul himself!

The website for this doesn't even show his face!

I've got a great idea for the 5th, we can have Paul give a speech in Washington wearing a Vendetta mask! And he can say "Remember, remember, the 5th of November!"

And then everyone will be inspired for freedom and donate money and we will win!

Come on people, what is it going to take to get you to see how much damage you are about to do, Ron Paul saying it to you himself? Would that even work?

paulitics

10-23-2007, 10:20 AM

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 10:20 AM

davidhperry

10-23-2007, 10:21 AM

I sent the thisnovember5th.com link to my mom, dad, and grandmother since they support Ron Paul and I knew that they would be interested in participating in a donation drive. They got the concept from reading the top two paragraphs but didn't really connect with it after watching the videos - I don't think they could identify with it as someone pointed out earlier. If this web site were an ad, I'd say that the target market was someone in their 20s and 30s.

Can we think of a way to get a larger number of people involved with this besides the core group of younger supporters? I think that could help blow this thing up to something really huge.

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 10:22 AM

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:22 AM

Again not the answer to the question I posed. The domain name was registered on 10/16. This idea is a week old. Why are the organizers so married to this concept?

I hope those of us who are against this are wrong about the media blowback, but what if we are right?

So I will ask again. Why is it so important to hold out till the 5th? Why cannot the site owner change his plans, email the 7000 or so subscribers and change the date to the 31st? Why the fixation over the 5th & the movie?

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:23 AM

EDIT: Kylejack, Halloween is the PERFECT night to go around promoting Ron Paul in a V mask. No one will think you're a psychopath, because everyone's in costume. When you bust out the cosplay on a night other then Halloween, people think you're crazy.
And that's why I'm doing it that night, and that's why 5 days later is just enough time for people to read the flyers and slimjims, learn about Ron Paul, and be ready to donate.

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:24 AM

I'd agree here.

October 31 is also Reformation Day.

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 10:24 AM

Stop the theme is 90% vendetta. It is a Ron Paul/vendeatta hybrid. It has Ron Paul back facing a large crowd, with dark bloody elements around it. It signifies a violent revolution, with Ron Paul as the leader.

Amen! You summed up what I have been trying to say in like a few sentences. And this is EXACTLY what the media will say, except like literally 10 times worse.

The date MUST change. The site needs to change to be nicer too. There's a reason ronpaul2008.com doesn't look like that you know.

Ozwest

10-23-2007, 10:24 AM

10/31 will be used to promote the movie with flyers. Guess what kind of mask I'll be wearing.

Ohhh, the horror. Besides, why would we associate the campaign with a violent night filled with ghouls, ghosts and serial killers like Halloween? Ohhhhh, the horror, they'll think we support vampires and mummies and Freddy Krueger!

Hahaha. BOOGA BOOGA!

a_european

10-23-2007, 10:24 AM

Oh the thread is up again.
I don't feel so strong about it anymore. I feared that the date and the tie in of the movie would get some bad press and tried to put it in some other context. That didn't work out very well. Someone wrote "The theme doesn't matter, just that it's a big donation day" and i tend to agree that. http://www.thisnovember5th.com/ is an awesome website and i really like it. I think the best spin for the media is "in one year Ron Paul will be President Elect".

On Guy Fawkes: After the failed assasination there was a joke going around about him being the "only man who entered the parliament with honourable intentions"... :D
But i don't think that bad of James I. anymore. There are always two sides of a story, and in history very often there is no "good" side.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:25 AM

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:26 AM

Why would you want to associate the campaign with a night that features such violent images as Halloween?

Posted earlier - Oct 31 is Reformation Day as well. But do it on the 30th or the 29th I really dont care. Why does it have to be the 5th?

Ozwest

10-23-2007, 10:26 AM

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:27 AM

Posted earlier - Oct 31 is Reformation Day as well. But do it on the 30th or the 29th I really dont care
November 5th is the Glorious Revolution, and also will be Ron Paul's first day as President-elect.

Brinck Slattery

10-23-2007, 10:28 AM

Kylejack, do you not get the argument that V for Vendetta has certain associations in many peoples' minds? Very violent, unsavory, morally ambiguous associations? Or are you just being obtuse and claiming that there is moral equivalence among all fictional characters?

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:28 AM

November 5th is the Glorious Revolution, and also will be Ron Paul's first day in office.

Ron Paul's first day in office will be in Jan 09. But that's beside the point. Why cannot the day be changed to prevent potential media backlash. Why are you folks so stubbornly attached to a week old concept.

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 10:29 AM

Never mind, good point, I was only thinking about the end of the month not halloween. The date should be changed to something without controversial importance for sure.

Maybe Nov.8th since 8 was my number playing soccer lol? The date just has to change. It can't be halloween or Nov.5th. The media blowback could be too bad to risk putting it on one of those days.

And answer that question too: why is Nov.5th sooooo important? And why can't all these Vendetta videos be taken off the internet?

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:30 AM

Ron Paul's first day in office will be in Jan 09. But that's beside the point.
Yeah, I edited a sec after I posted.

Why cannot the day be changed to prevent potential media backlash. Why are you folks so stubbornly attached to a week old concept.
Because I don't acknowledge that there will be this vast media backlash, I don't acknowledge that media backlash hurts the campaign (quite the contrary), and I don't acknowledge that many even watch cable news.

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:31 AM

And answer that question too: why is Nov.5th sooooo important? And why can't all these Vendetta videos be taken off the internet?

To be honest I think there is a level of immaturity at work here. It's their idea and they don't like anyone questioning it. "Consequences be damned this is our idea and we'll do what we want too"

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 10:31 AM

So I will ask again. Why is it so important to hold out till the 5th? Why cannot the site owner change his plans, email the 7000 or so subscribers and change the date to the 31st? Why the fixation over the 5th & the movie?

They came up with an idea and liked it, but didn't consider the negatives. When the negatives were brought to their attention they were to hardheaded to realize them.

When you start any kind of marketing campaign, you always analyze the negatives. This is a marketing campaign for donations.

If there are many, which there are in this case, you revise your plan. You want to reach and influence as many people as possible, with as little negative impact as possible-- Changing the date to the 31st, Veterans Day, Boston Tea Party Day etc would do this, but no, they are too hardheaded to change and minimize any negative repercussions.

paulitics

10-23-2007, 10:31 AM

Get a grip!

When I look at that website, that is how I interpret it. I think it speaks pretty clearly as a v day/ ron paul revolution hybrid and that has violent connotions.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:31 AM

And answer that question too: why is Nov.5th sooooo important? And why can't all these Vendetta videos be taken off the internet?
I don't know why you're trying to convince this forum when you should be trying to convince the people who posted the videos. Go contact them. Posting in this forum does nothing.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 10:32 AM

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:32 AM

Yeah, I edited a sec after I posted.

Because I don't acknowledge that there will be this vast media backlash, I don't acknowledge that media backlash hurts the campaign (quite the contrary), and I don't acknowledge that many even watch cable news.

So because you don't believe there will be backlash, you are going to ignore the advice and comments of other people? If we are wrong, then nothing changes. But if you are wrong, a lot can change. Are you willing to take that risk?

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:34 AM

Kylejack, do you not get the argument that V for Vendetta has certain associations in many peoples' minds?
I understand where the argument is coming from, I just think that anyone who has seen the movie understands that message is more poweful than the violence.

Or are you just being obtuse and claiming that there is moral equivalence among all fictional characters?
Well sure, to some degree. I'm doing this to point out the absurdity. Halloween is filled with violent images who commit violence for the sake of evil and violence, while V commits violence against fascists who committed genocide and conducted Hitler-style medical experiments on him and others.

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:34 AM

When I look at that website, that is how I interpret it. I think it speaks pretty clearly as a v day/ ron paul revolution hybrid and that has violent connotions.

My wife & daughter said the same thing.

Ozwest

10-23-2007, 10:34 AM

When I look at that website, that is how I interpret it. I think it speaks pretty clearly as a v day/ ron paul revolution hybrid and that has violent connotions.

You must lead a sheltered life.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:34 AM

My wife & daughter said the same thing.

I could support a re-design of the website. That's fine, so long as it says 11/5.

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 10:35 AM

Yeah, I edited a sec after I posted.

Because I don't acknowledge that there will be this vast media backlash, I don't acknowledge that media backlash hurts the campaign (quite the contrary), and I don't acknowledge that many even watch cable news.

Wow this is truly scary to think someone using that kind of logic somehow gained this much control over a fundraising idea.

None of us have said the media blowback is certain, only possible and likely, but why take the RISK is what we're asking?

And we have not had media backlash yet, so how do you know it does not hurt the campaign? All we have had is media censorship. And media backlash basically destroyed Dean, along with other politicians over time as well. So it DOES hurt politicians whether you believe it or not.

Thats just stupid to say many people don't watch cable news too because if they don't watch cable news where are they going to go to for news? The internet? Maybe its time for a reality check for you; everyone does not get on the internet, believe it or not even the majority of people don't use the internet much. So the only place they get news and info about people like Paul is from papers and CABLE NEWS.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:35 AM

So because you don't believe there will be backlash, you are going to ignore the advice and comments of other people? If we are wrong, then nothing changes. But if you are wrong, a lot can change. Are you willing to take that risk?
This is a grassroots movement, which means I don't command any troops. But yes, I'm going to keep promoting 11/5.

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:36 AM

I could support a re-design of the website. That's fine, so long as it says 11/5.

Why? What is the fixation with the 5th? Why not use the work you have done in getting 7000 subscribers and help the campaign meet their October goal of 4 million?

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:37 AM

This is a grassroots movement, which means I don't command any troops. But yes, I'm going to keep promoting 11/5.

You aren't Trevor then are you?

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 10:38 AM

I think the poster "Sword of Shanarra" is the owner of the 11/5 site. Don't know if I am spelling Shanarra right.

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:41 AM

I think the poster "Sword of Shanarra" is the owner of the 11/5 site. Don't know if I am spelling Shanarra right.

If that's Trevor then that's the person that is truly in control of this.

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 10:42 AM

Why? What is the fixation with the 5th? Why not use the work you have done in getting 7000 subscribers and help the campaign meet their October goal of 4 million?

I agree. Help the campaign meet the October goal instead of risking destroying everything we're all working so hard for. There is no need for unneeded risk taking, and thats what you're doing by pushing on with the date of Nov.5th, which really has no meaning other than its relation to the movie V for Vendetta. No one even thought about that date as being anything special in America until that movie came out really.

And if you agree with redesigning the site then do it because thats very important too. Although I must admit I'm afraid you might do something like put a background of parliament blowing up with Paul in front of it or put a Vendetta mask on Ron Paul or something like that....
If you redo it make it cheerier and nicer, and get away from the Al Queda black ops radical look. Its cool, but creepy to an overwhelming majority of people.

Now I'm begging you to change the date people. Don't you realize this could be the end of Paul's chance to become president? Is that a risk you want to take?

davidhperry

10-23-2007, 10:43 AM

I could support a re-design of the website. That's fine, so long as it says 11/5.

Keep the date - it has momentum at this point and it would suck to switch gears to another date at this point. However, a site redesign that's more accessible to people will draw NEW donors in - people like my parents and grandmother. Those are the folks we need to reach.

Brinck Slattery

10-23-2007, 10:43 AM

Well sure, to some degree. I'm doing this to point out the absurdity. Halloween is filled with violent images who commit violence for the sake of evil and violence, while V commits violence against fascists who committed genocide and conducted Hitler-style medical experiments on him and others.

But do you see how the fact that the movie is an adolescent revenge fantasy plays into the "all Ron Paul supporters are white males between the ages of 18-25?" Also, that the fact that there appears to be dried blood dripping from the margins of the image of Ron Paul's back might send the wrong message...

All concepts have connotations. Halloween is fun scary, V is grim scary. There's a big difference - it's the difference between the movies Labyrinth and The Punisher.

The Sword of Shannara guy is the one to get in touch with regarding the web site?

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 10:47 AM

This is the contact info for the person running the sight:

Admin note- please do not post others contact information, it violates the forum guidelines. If the info on their website provide a link to it. Thanks.

justinc.1089

10-23-2007, 10:48 AM

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:49 AM

I went back and looked at the original thread on this. First post was "10-15-2007, 11:23 PM", by 10-16-2007, 01:35 AM (2 hours later) after some criticism was mentioned, the creator of this idea stated "This will not be derailed!! It is what it is and it is as is"

So essentially, someone had an idea. They didn't want to hear any dissenting opinions and went ahead with the idea dispite the objections of others. Frankly, it seems quite childish to me.

paulitics

10-23-2007, 10:49 AM

Also, that the fact that there appears to be dried blood dripping from the margins of the image of Ron Paul's back might send the wrong message...

This is where I have a problem with it. And the whole theme of the idea, has violent connotations into this comic book fantasy world.

Ozwest

10-23-2007, 10:50 AM

Why? What is the fixation with the 5th? Why not use the work you have done in getting 7000 subscribers and help the campaign meet their October goal of 4 million?

Originally there would have been no special fixation on the 5th, it is only a movie that is a rallying cry for some. REPEAT: It's only a movie... You and similar are FIXATED on a movie you have probably never watched, picturing Ron wielding a chainsaw and slaughtering all before him. Stop working yourselves into such a lather!

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 10:50 AM

There is freaking blood underneath the 5 in the website header.....

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:51 AM

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:51 AM

Wow this is truly scary to think someone using that kind of logic somehow gained this much control over a fundraising idea.
By control you mean...zero control? I mean, really what the hell are you talking about? I DON'T COMMAND ANY TROOPS AND HAVE NO CONTROL OVER ANYTHING BUT MYSELF.

None of us have said the media blowback is certain, only possible and likely, but why take the RISK is what we're asking?
Millions of dollars for advertising in early primary states.

And we have not had media backlash yet, so how do you know it does not hurt the campaign?
The campaign I've been supporting has been constantly ridiculed by the media for:

1. "He said that the attacks are our fault!"
2. Truther connections
3. Racist connections
4. Over-zealous supporters

I don't know what campaign you've been supporting. All of these attacks have only made us stronger.

Thats just stupid to say many people don't watch cable news too because if they don't watch cable news where are they going to go to for news? The internet?
Nightly news broadcasts and the newspaper, neither of which will report on this ridiculous story.

Maybe its time for a reality check for you; everyone does not get on the internet, believe it or not even the majority of people don't use the internet much. So the only place they get news and info about people like Paul is from papers and CABLE NEWS.
Nightly news broadcasts and newspapers will not cover this, and that's where most people get their news. Watch and see.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 10:52 AM

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:52 AM

Originally there would have been no special fixation on the 5th, it is only a movie that is a rallying cry for some. REPEAT: It's only a movie... You and similar are FIXATED on a movie you have probably never watched, picturing Ron wielding a chainsaw and slaughtering all before him. Stop working yourselves into such a lather!

It's not our "fixation" you should worry about, its the fixation of the media and how they could portray this to the soccer moms, retirees, desk jockeys, Evangelicals and factory workers that we need to vote for Ron Paul

brumans

10-23-2007, 10:54 AM

We ALREADY have over $750,000 pledged for that day and we still have 12 more days left. Get over it, it's not going to go away, nor should it. It's going to be an amazing day for the campaign.

KewlRonduderules

10-23-2007, 10:54 AM

There is freaking blood underneath the 5 in the website header.....

You have point here. This needs to be changed. I never noticed it before.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:54 AM

This is the contact info for the person running the sight:

Is it really necessary to post his address?

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 10:55 AM

The campaign I've been supporting has been constantly ridiculed by the media for:

1. "He said that the attacks are our fault!"
2. Truther connections
3. Racist connections
4. Over-zealous supporters

I don't know what campaign you've been supporting. All of these attacks have only made us stronger.

I don't know what you are smoking. Other than getting his name out none of that is good. The truther stuff is where the tin foil hat image came from.

There isn't too much wrong with over-zealous supporters as long as they don't do anything too foolish.

KewlRonduderules

10-23-2007, 10:55 AM

Oh my god!!! He did not do that?!:eek:

hells_unicorn

10-23-2007, 10:56 AM

Exactly. The site was purchased 7 days ago. Plans could easily be changed. There's some huge issues of pride here I believe. And as we know "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall"

They are not going to change, get over it, and get over yourself. If you are afraid of taking risks in order to increase awareness about Paul, it is a wonder why you support a pro-free market candidate, this whining would be right at home with the nanny-staters over in Kucinich's camp.

paulitics

10-23-2007, 10:56 AM

There is freaking blood underneath the 5 in the website header.....

And the video shows the bloody V's everywhere.

tfelice

10-23-2007, 10:56 AM

Is it really necessary to post his address?

I wouldn't have done so myself, but it is public information

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 10:56 AM

Is it really necessary to post his address?

It is public info.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:57 AM

I don't know what you are smoking. Other than getting his name out...
Exactly, getting his name out. Did you know that 70% of people polled have never heard of Ron Paul?

kylejack

10-23-2007, 10:59 AM

It is public info.

I said 'necessary'. Is it necessary, as in, does it do anything positive at all? What, people are going to write him a letter about this?

Brinck Slattery

10-23-2007, 10:59 AM

Do you want the first time they hear about him to be in the context of a controversy over his supporters using a violent, blood-splattering film to promote a fundraising drive?

EDIT: Yeah, whoever put up Trevor's info please erase it. It's available for whoever wants to look for it.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 11:00 AM

Do you want the first time they hear about him to be in the context of a controversy over his supporters using a violent, blood-splattering film to promote a fundraising drive?

If the alternative is not hearing about him at all, yes.

hells_unicorn

10-23-2007, 11:00 AM

You know something, I have become so annoyed with these damned namby pamby "NOOOO, not November 5th" people that I'm going to tag an extra $5 to my donation that day for every post one of them makes in one of these threads. I may just max myself out on that day just to give them something to cry about.

paulitics

10-23-2007, 11:00 AM

Nightly news broadcasts and the newspaper, neither of which will report on this ridiculous story.

You don't know that. This could very well be headline news that destroys the campaign. Its definately newsworthy. Im not saying that it will, but the chance does exist, I would day 30 to 40%. You deny the posssibility, which makes me question your ability to reason.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 11:00 AM

Exactly, getting his name out. Did you know that 70% of people polled have never heard of Ron Paul?

All press is good press is a total misconception. Especially for politicians. That is only really true for movie stars.

If they already have name recognition, bad press isn't so bad. But when you are trying to build it, and everything people hear about you is negative, not so good.

Do you really want the first thing people hear about Paul to be negative? I for one don't.

Brinck Slattery

10-23-2007, 11:01 AM

Are companies namby-pamby when they decide how to market a new product to an ignorant audience and they deliberate over the best way to do so? I think not.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 11:01 AM

You don't know that. This could very well be headline news that destroys the campaign. Its definately newsworthy. Im not saying that it will, but the chance does exist, I would day 30 to 40%. You deny the posssibility, which makes me question your ability to reason.
Your powers of persuasion are impressive. Insulting someone is, of course, a fantastic way to win someone over. I wonder if you say similar things to supporters of other candidates. "The fact that you support Rudy leads me to question your ability to reason." Yes, I'm sure that's a very effective tactic.

davidhperry

10-23-2007, 11:04 AM

What do you mean it has momentum? This happened in only days! If it happened in days it can be changed in days too!

We cannot take the risk of ending Paul's chance at being president! And that is what this date is doing!

Everyone that is opposed to this needs to email the campaign to put a statement on here about this to stop it. The date must change.

And in the future the grassroots needs to stick to campaign fundraising goals to avoid this type of situation. A small group of people have gained way too much control over a grassroots effort and they are leading it astray now and we can't change it. If we can't effectively coordinate the grassroots thats a lot of damage to the campaign. The only way to effectively coordinate the grassroots is to stick to doing what the campaign says to do.

Regardless of someone's opinion of the "V" tie-in, I think the real issue is that the current site comes across as juvenile - which prevents it from reaching the widest possible audience (people 40 and over, which we obviously need in order to be successful).

The date thing is is ancillary, a distant second. Sure, it might have started out with a relationship to Guy Fawkes but, if we widen the scope of the site, then the significance of the date becomes a non-issue. Also, is just stirs up more dust - we'll have more people coming on the boards and shouting things "why did we change the date!?!" and so on. We talk about this too much as it is and we open ourselves up to criticism if we obsess over it too much.

I don't' think we should be too concerned with pulling money away from the Oct deadline either. For one thing, the campaign is going to make very sure that people know about that deadline - people will step up just like they have always done. Also, many people still won't even know about the Nov. 5th date and they'll go ahead and donate in Oct. anyway.

The organizers of the Nov. 5th donation drive have done a great job getting the ball rolling and pulling things together to make this happen. They also should be willing to do what it takes to make the whole thing as effective as it can possibly be.

NinjaPirate

10-23-2007, 11:04 AM

HA!

First off, people like SHAWN HANNITY speculate about the reason for something? Hell, they CREATE reasons for things! And with Vendetta being there they will know!

I've been saying this the whole time. No matter what we do, they will find some way to discredit, smear, and marginilize us. We can make it a Care Bear theme, and decorate the website with pretty little rainbows and smiling sunshine, and they'll twist that.

hells_unicorn

10-23-2007, 11:04 AM

Are companies namby-pamby when they decide how to market a new product to an ignorant audience and they deliberate over the best way to do so? I think not.

We're not selling Nike shoes genius.

Do you really want the first thing people hear about Paul to be negative? I for one don't.

Can anyone else here see the irony of a person carrying a quote of Thomas Jefferson speaking on the right to bear arms complaining about blood on a picture?

NinjaPirate

10-23-2007, 11:05 AM

We're not selling Nike shoes genius.

Can anyone else here see the irony of a person carrying a quote of Thomas Jefferson speaking on the right to bear arms complaining about blood on a picture?

The irony bus has definietly made a few trips around the block.

tfelice

10-23-2007, 11:06 AM

I've been saying this the whole time. No matter what we do, they will find some way to discredit, smear, and marginilize us. We can make it a Care Bear theme, and decorate the website with pretty little rainbows and smiling sunshine, and they'll twist that.

Yeah but the V theme just makes it easy for them. Why give them an inch?

Brinck Slattery

10-23-2007, 11:06 AM

hells_unicorn

10-23-2007, 11:07 AM

Yeah but the V theme just makes it easy for them. Why give them an inch?

What about the V theme makes it easy for them?

NinjaPirate

10-23-2007, 11:08 AM

Yeah but the V theme just makes it easy for them. Why give them an inch?

It's not hard to twist anything. As everyone can see, it's second nature to these folk.

tfelice

10-23-2007, 11:08 AM

What about the V theme makes it easy for them?

The violent imagery & the underlying domestic terrorism story. Contrast that with the Veteran's Day theme that someone did - alot harder to spin that negatively

kylejack

10-23-2007, 11:08 AM

7,000 people were sufficiently satisfied with the date to commit to donate $100 on it. When you have developed an idea that can raise $700,000 in one day, we can talk about alternatives. I personally do not think days with obscure historical meanings like October 28th or October 29th will be as effective, nor gather as many supporters, but feel free to start a website and see.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 11:09 AM

The violent imagery & the underlying domestic terrorism story. Contrast that with the Veteran's Day theme that someone did - alot harder to spin that negatively

I look forward to your website.

hells_unicorn

10-23-2007, 11:11 AM

Uh, yes, we are selling Ron Paul. We are creating the Ron Paul brand. That's what smart marketing is - making sure that people see Dr. Paul in a positive light instead of as a crazy, violent old man. It's shockingly like selling Nike shoes - ask anyone who has worked on a political campaign before.

Forgive me but Ron Paul doesn't look much like something you put on your foot, I understand he loves to run, but give me a break. Let's break this down to what is really going on and dispense with the euphemisms, we are essentially lying to people in order to make Paul look good. Paul supports issues that are seen as controversial, and instead of rejecting this premise, we are going around like a bunch of scared apologists, it's down right pathetic.

Corporations make their money by hooking people in with meaningless slogans and pie in the sky talk, and this is precisely why I don't support almost every other candidate running. You start treating this election like a beauty contest you will lose his base.

Be this as it may, all this talk about stopping the Nov. 5th fund raiser is moot, it's going to happen. But do feel free to complain about it some more, I'm not here to try and stomp out anyone's 1st Amendment rights, that is what our government is for.

JoshLowry

10-23-2007, 11:11 AM

Go pass out flyers, we don't have much time left!

Get off your computers. You can't stop what another volunteer is dead set on doing!

hells_unicorn

10-23-2007, 11:13 AM

The violent imagery & the underlying domestic terrorism story. Contrast that with the Veteran's Day theme that someone did - alot harder to spin that negatively

So instead of using the image of a person using violence in order to defeat a tyrannical government we are going to honor our candidate on a day where we commemorate olden heroes ripping each other apart/blowing each other apart on a battle field while those tyrannical governments profited? I find your idea much more offensive personally and in complete contradiction to the general philosophy of non-interventionism.

Brinck Slattery

10-23-2007, 11:15 AM

yeah nothing says non-interventionist like blowing up Parliament and systematically killing your sworn enemies. That's peace!

I'm now thoroughly convinced that the people that are all-in for this "V" bullshit have some serious blinders on, or live in some sort of bubble where everyone thinks revenge fantasies are the most awesome.

Time to try other channels!

paulitics

10-23-2007, 11:16 AM

Ron Paul is for peaceful protest.

allyinoh

10-23-2007, 11:18 AM

tfelice

10-23-2007, 11:18 AM

So instead of using the image of a person using violence in order to defeat a tyrannical government we are going to honor our candidate on a day where we commemorate olden heroes ripping each other apart/blowing each other apart on a battle field while those tyrannical governments profited? I find your idea much more offensive personally and in complete contradiction to the general philosophy of non-interventionism.

Ron Paul is a veteran.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 11:19 AM

See there are other things that happened that are great on that day! It's not just limited to Guy Fawkes day.

Ok, but where is that connection drawn on the website for this, oh yeah, its not.

ClockwiseSpark

10-23-2007, 11:19 AM

My father of 61 years has seen V for vendetta and absolutely loved it for the message that it communicates. He's recommending it to all his friends.

SK

My 80 year old Grandfather is the same way. He loves the movie, loves the idea of donating on November the 5th and has been promoting it with his friends. :D

brumans

10-23-2007, 11:20 AM

Ok, but where is that connection drawn on the website for this, oh yeah, its not.

Umm did you watch the other videos on there? There are 2 that reference Vendetta and 3 that mention other things.

Ozwest

10-23-2007, 11:28 AM

I am not an anarchist, but I hate conformity. I hate self-censorship, and I hate what America has become. I'm saddened. God Bless America.

tfelice

10-23-2007, 11:32 AM

I am not an anarchist, but I hate conformity. I hate self-censorship, and I hate what America has become. I'm saddened. God Bless America.

Alot of us dislike what America has become, but in order to change things we have to play by their rules. If playing by our own rules would get us anywhere, The Libertarian Party would have won seats in Congress by now.

You can't get your issues across if you can't get a seat at the table. Dr. Paul is running for the GOP nomination. We need the majority support of traditional GOP voters, and having the campaign painted as a bunch of kooks wearing V masks doesnt help endear us to the general public.

You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

davidhperry

10-23-2007, 11:32 AM

To be honest I think there is a level of immaturity at work here. It's their idea and they don't like anyone questioning it. "Consequences be damned this is our idea and we'll do what we want too"

This unfortunate deal about this whole thing is the manner in which it was started. This is a distributed, grassroots campaign and we all play a part in it. Then someone goes off and decides to be their own campaign manager and do something without even considering the advice of others. The icing on the cake is when they come back with arguments like "it's a free country/market, deal with it." That's a pretty ironic thing to say for someone who wants to protect their ideas and what they have built.

It's not so much that people don't like the Nov. 5th thing it's that people have good ideas to make it better and they are being intentionally ignored.

Again, I love the initiative that people took with getting this together and I'm not against the "V" relationship. we need to see much more ideas like this if we are to reach our fundraising goals. I just wish that they wouldn't be so closed-minded to the ideas of others.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 11:35 AM

This unfortunate deal about this whole thing is the manner in which it was started. This is a distributed, grassroots campaign and we all play a part in it. Then someone goes off and decides to be their own campaign manager and do something without even considering the advice of others. The icing on the cake is when they come back with arguments like "it's a free country/market, deal with it." That's a pretty ironic thing to say for someone who wants to protect their ideas and what they have built.

It's not so much that people don't like the Nov. 5th thing it's that people have good ideas to make it better and they are being intentionally ignored.

Again, I love the initiative that people took with getting this together and I'm not against the "V" relationship. we need to see much more ideas like this if we are to reach our fundraising goals. I just wish that they wouldn't be so closed-minded to the ideas of others.

You're a stark minority in the dissention, though. Most are being far less sensible and accomodating, even so far as being insulting of the people they're trying to persuade.

Channing

10-23-2007, 11:36 AM

I say this is much ado about nearly nothing. November 5th will come and it will pass. I don't think it will generate that much mass media attention anyway. It's a "fun" thing to do for the 7000 or so crowd among us Ron Paul supporters who like the movie.

A similar campaign on Veteran's day could also be spun in a negative fashion by the MSM, like "They're using Veteran's day their own political purposes. A day that should be for remembrance, not politics." or "Democrats also fought for America, not just Republicans".

Do you people who criticize this engage the people on Stormfront who are advertising for Ron Paul in a similar way?

Btw, I feel disappointed when people here say "9/11 truthers" are "tin foil" who damage the movement. Isn't it possible to have different opinions on things and still treat each other with respect?

Brinck Slattery

10-23-2007, 11:38 AM

well, I work at a major corporation, and I'm pretty sure that visiting Stormfront's web site is a no-no for our compliance people.

MS0453

10-23-2007, 11:43 AM

Plus, Fawkes was just a Pawn in a plan for a catholic takeover of the thrown, he wasn't even remotely a "freedom fighter".

Yes! I'd just like to a small (un-related to the 11/5 discussion, I know) point about Fawkes and his supposed heroism. Guy Fawkes was as much a friend to human liberty as was George Orwell, which is to say, not at all. Complaints of tyrannies does not in and of itself make a man a libertarian/classical liberal/whatever. Some of the revisionism that occurs concerning those the two figures (and many others) is rather disappointing.

davidhperry

10-23-2007, 11:44 AM

You're a stark minority in the dissention, though. Most are being far less sensible and accomodating, even so far as being insulting of the people they're trying to persuade.

That's probably true, there are many jerks here. Our diversity of opinion is an advantage and disadvantage at the same time. It's good because it brings in a lot of good ideas. The downside is that's it's really challenging to work together without various group getting their feelings hurt.

I wonder when people will realize that name-calling and attacking won't win anyone over to their point of view. It's what we all want to do when we disagree with something but we have to resist that urge.

Still, people should be considerate when talking through things and many are not. However, two wrongs don't make a right - the principles still count. The person who rises above it wins.

Channing

10-23-2007, 11:50 AM

It's not so much that people don't like the Nov. 5th thing it's that people have good ideas to make it better and they are being intentionally ignored.

I don't think the ideas are being ignored, it's just that they don't agree with them.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 11:51 AM

Yes! I'd just like to a small (un-related to the 11/5 discussion, I know) point about Fawkes and his supposed heroism. Guy Fawkes was as much a friend to human liberty as was George Orwell, which is to say, not at all. Complaints of tyrannies does not in and of itself make a man a libertarian/classical liberal/whatever. Some of the revisionism that occurs concerning those the two figures (and many others) is rather disappointing.

Like I said elsewhere you are misguided if you think the gunpowder plot people were "freedom fighters," They were not.

Guy Fawkes tried to blow up parlement so their could be catholic rule rather than protestant, not because he wanted freedom of religion. He wasn't an anarchist or a libertarian. He wasn't doing it for liberty or freedom, he wasn't V from V for Vendetta.

He just wanted the theocracy that he supported to be in charge.

"Robert Catesby may have decided upon the plot when hopes of Catholic toleration under James I receded leaving many Catholics disappointed. However it is likely Catesby simply envisaged a Catholic future for England brought about by his drastic scheme. The plot was intended to begin a rebellion during which James' nine-year-old daughter (Princess Elizabeth) could be installed as a Catholic head of state."

Fawkes worked for Catesby. You see, he wasn't even a freedom fighter, but just another pawn in the the centuries long struggle for the British crown and religious control.

Putting this false fredom figher hero status on Fawkes is no better than doing it for Che Guvarra.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 11:52 AM

V, on the other hand, was an anarchist.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 11:56 AM

V, on the other hand, was an anarchist.

Exactly.

People aren't too fond of anarchists. They view them as those people wearing all black and masks and protesting the WTO and smashing Starbucks windows.

Ron Paul isn't an anarchist, so why associate him with one.

DaronWestbrooke

10-23-2007, 11:56 AM

V, on the other hand, was an anarchist.

What's wrong with that?

Brinck Slattery

10-23-2007, 11:57 AM

Exactly.

People aren't too fond of anarchists. They view them as those people wearing black masks and protesting the WTO and smashing Starbucks windows.

Ron Paul isn't an anarchist, so why associate him with one.

Like those roughnecks Sacco and Vanzetti. Hup Hup Hup!

DaronWestbrooke

10-23-2007, 11:58 AM

Exactly.

People aren't too fond of anarchists. They view them as those people wearing all black and masks and protesting the WTO and smashing Starbucks windows.

Ron Paul isn't an anarchist, so why associate him with one.

I, and most in my meetup were part of WTO protests, and look now, we were right and if you listened to us then, you wouldn't be worrying about this North American Union and crap like that. We are (were) Democrats, but we were fighting for the same thing.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 11:58 AM

What's wrong with that?
Nothing, except the marketing.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 11:59 AM

Like those roughnecks Sacco and Vanzetti. Hup Hup Hup!
That was injustice and should not be praised.

Brinck Slattery

10-23-2007, 11:59 AM

it's a family guy joke. apologies.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 12:02 PM

I, and most in my meetup were part of WTO protests, and look now, we were right and if you listened to us then, you wouldn't be worrying about this North American Union and crap like that. We are (were) Democrats, but we were fighting for the same thing.

But it is all about marketing and perception and how you go about accomplishing your goals.

Average Joe Republican, not too fond of anarchists.

KewlRonduderules

10-23-2007, 12:04 PM

V, on the other hand, was an anarchist.

Where did you come up with this?

He believed in putting the government in the hands of the people - not having a controlling elite. Does this make one an anarchist? Hardly.

Brinck Slattery

10-23-2007, 12:08 PM

He was an anarchist because his tactics involved tearing the state structure down with violence and allowing spontaneous order to rebuild society. If you are going to pretend that "V," whose symbol was purposely designed to look like an upside-down anarchist "A", is not an anarchist, you are willfully ignoring something.

brumans

10-23-2007, 12:09 PM

When he blew up the buildings there weren't any people in it or anything... it was merely symbolic.
You guys are overanalyzing this way to much though.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 12:16 PM

Where did you come up with this?

He believed in putting the government in the hands of the people - not having a controlling elite. Does this make one an anarchist? Hardly.
The movie altered V's political beliefs and also altered the form of government he was fighting against. The comic had an anarchist fighting fascists rather than a socialist fighting neo-conservatives. You should read the comic. Its much better.

KewlRonduderules

10-23-2007, 12:16 PM

an-ar-chist:

noun 1. a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.
2. a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed.
3. a person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.

This does not sound like V in my opinion.

;)

kylejack

10-23-2007, 12:17 PM

This does not sound like V in my opinion.

;)
That's because you apparently didn't read the comic where V was invented.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 12:19 PM

How about we draw parallels between Spiderman and Ron Paul. The Spiderman movies are much more popular. :rolleyes:

KewlRonduderules

10-23-2007, 12:20 PM

That's because you apparently didn't read the comic where V was invented.

I thought we were talking about the movie. I think most people are focused on the movie. Majority of the people are probably unaware there is a comic. I did not know until I read this post just now.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 12:20 PM

How about we draw parallels between Spiderman and Ron Paul. The Spiderman movies are much more popular. :rolleyes:

As I said, the die is cast.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 12:35 PM

Wait, how about we associate Ron Paul with Captain America! He fights fascist Nazis.:rolleyes:

kylejack

10-23-2007, 12:37 PM

How about we associate Ron Paul with Captain America! He fights fascist Nazis.:rolleyes:

Go for it, I look forward to your website and 7,000 subscribers. Captain America is getting re-launched soon, did you hear?

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 12:43 PM

Go for it, I look forward to your website and 7,000 subscribers. Captain America is getting re-launched soon, did you hear?

While I think associating a presidential candidate with a comic book hero is pretty juvinile, I'd much rather it be Captain America than V. Plus, Captain America spans many generations.

Stan Lee is a Clinton supporter by the way.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 12:45 PM

While I think associating a presidential candidate with a comic book hero is pretty juvinile, I'd much rather it be Captain America than V. Plus, Captain America spans many generations.

Stan Lee is a Clinton supporter by the way.
Well, it was your idea. If you like it, go for it. If you think its juvenile, feel free to piss off.

hells_unicorn

10-23-2007, 01:09 PM

Ron Paul is a veteran.

So is my father, both were forced into it, and thankfully both were not shoved into the front lines and brought home in body bags in the name of Lyndon Johnson's Imperialism. You've completely missed the point of what I was saying of course, Veterans day is associated with war, ergo violence 1 million times the few scum bag politicians that V killed in a fictional story. Veterans day commemorates mass bloodshed in real life, thus your argument is hypocritical.

work2win

10-23-2007, 01:11 PM

This whole mess is sad and comical at the same time.

The funny thing is how simple the fix is (promote with a different video on the website).

The sad thing is how the creators refuse to make this small change in order to bring everybody together.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 01:14 PM

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 01:16 PM

So is my father, both were forced into it, and thankfully both were not shoved into the front lines and brought home in body bags in the name of Lyndon Johnson's Imperialism. You've completely missed the point of what I was saying of course, Veterans day is associated with war, ergo violence 1 million times the few scum bag politicians that V killed in a fictional story. Veterans day commemorates mass bloodshed in real life, thus your argument is hypocritical.

Veteran's day does not commemorate bloodshed, it commemorates service to country. There is a difference. We aren't celebrating the taking of life. .

I am a veteran by the way, and my girlfriend is an Iraq war veteran.

kylejack

10-23-2007, 01:19 PM

Often, enslaved forced service to country.

Ridiculous

10-23-2007, 01:25 PM

Often, enslaved forced service to country.

You are missing the point. I'm not advocating a draft here.

Corydoras

10-23-2007, 07:15 PM

Veterans day commemorates mass bloodshed in real life

Veterans Day is the American name for Armistice Day, when hostilities ceased on the Western Front in World War I.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_Day
It doesn't celebrate bloodshed, it mourns it.

The English traditionally wear red poppies on that day to recall the red poppies that spontaneously grew in the battlefields of France over the graves of the soldiers killed there.