PDA

View Full Version : New radio ad's terrible. Much better ideas herein.




Ron LOL
10-20-2007, 11:43 PM
Howdy. First post. Be gentle.

So I went ahead and listened to the radio ad we all just paid $434k for, and I was shocked -- it's terrible. In fact, I don't think the ad could be worse and still have been produced by the campaign. If this is what the campaign is producing with our money, then Ron Paul is most definitely right in saying that we are the reason for his success rather than he or his campaign.

For Ron Paul to win over voters, two things need to happen.


Voters must be convinced that Ron Paul isn't some weird "other" candidate.
Voters need to actually hear "the message" Ron Paul always talks about when asked why his campaign is growing so quickly.


The current ad does neither.

Ron Paul is right -- "the message" is great, and it's what won me over. But the radio ad on the front page of ronpaul2008.com doesn't relate the message in any way, shape or form!!

The solution?

GET SOMEBODY TO READ THE GOD DAMN BOILERPLATE TEXT (Ron Paul has never voted to increase taxes...etc) ON THE AIR. JESUS CHRIST. THIS IS SO OBVIOUS.

Honestly.

Just get somebody to read it. Verbatim.

Another idea might be to take this and combine it with something similar to Apple's Switch campaign, and do a simple read (e.g. not some over-the-top "radio voice") like...

"My name is XYZ, and I want to quickly tell you about how I decided to vote for Ron Paul. Ron Paul has never voted to raise taxes, has never voted for an unbalanced budget or for federal restrictions on gun ownership, has never voted to increase congressional pay..."

Right up to the very end of the boilerplate.

The blowback tirade got me online to look for Ron Paul's site, but the boilerplate text is what converted me. NOBODY can stand up to that record. Let's get it out there. It's the only thing people need to see.

And while we're at it, the "R3VOLUTION" banners are retarded. The boilerplate will win us the election. "R3VOLUTION" only serves to decrease the campaign's credibility -- the word revolution, even with love in there, pushes us to the fringe. The average American sees revolution and thinks we're a bunch of nuts. We need to stop using that damn word and come up with something more palatable.

mkrfctr
10-20-2007, 11:46 PM
Since you said first post I'll be gentle.

I have no idea wtf you just said.

bc2208
10-20-2007, 11:49 PM
I don't think its awful, as it separates him from the bloodsucking lawyers and millionaires. But you're right, it doesn't give us the impression that he is the honest and knowledgeable man we know him to be. The Constitution line is little better than Kucinich's.

CasualApathy
10-20-2007, 11:50 PM
Since you said first post I'll be gentle.

I have no idea wtf you just said.

Then put on your thinking cap, he makes some valid points.

I dont think it is terrible as much as... below potential.

richard1984
10-20-2007, 11:50 PM
Since you said first post I'll be gentle.

I have no idea wtf you just said.

Yeah.... Take a rough, wooden stake, and drive it through your heart! ;)

Then come back and let us know what you think.... :D


(I'm being [largely] sarcastic....)

davidhperry
10-20-2007, 11:53 PM
I think you've got some good points - the ad could be better but I think we've got to take the intended audience into account.

I believe it's aimed at a different crowd (middle-aged folks) than those who would typically be attracted to Ron Paul. It would be interesting to hear what kind of stations that intend to play it on.

steph3n
10-20-2007, 11:53 PM
the ad on the flash is not the final ad, that is what puzzles me, they have an MP3 on the site of the ad.....

Ron LOL
10-20-2007, 11:53 PM
Since you said first post I'll be gentle.

I have no idea wtf you just said.

If that's the case, then I can only conclude you didn't read my post.

Bottom line: the radio ad posted to the front page of ronpaul2008.com is horrible and will not win over any voters. It doesn't relate any of the things that make Ron Paul a great fit for the oval office.

Proposed solution: new radio ad consisting of Ron Paul's boilerplate text

Brief Overview of Congressman Paulís Record:

He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.

He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress.

THAT should be in the radio ad. THAT should be on all of our signs. THAT is what will win people over.

Taco John
10-20-2007, 11:54 PM
I actually like the ad. It speaks to one of the top most issues in America right now. I try to call him Dr. Paul as much as I can to get the healthcare message across. This one goes straight to the point. I'm guessing that they probably did some research to see what people in NH are interested in hearing the most about. I would think that people looking for anwers on healthcare, and find out that Dr. Paul has a solution will check out the site and find "the message" themselves.

davidhperry
10-20-2007, 11:55 PM
I heard Rand Paul the other day say that he would like the campaign run an ad with military personal doing the voice overs. They could talk about how much they support Ron and his foreign policy ideas and that would be a pretty compelling way to convince people that he's dead-on regarding the Iraq issue - probably his biggest turnoff to folks who don't like him.

blamx8
10-20-2007, 11:56 PM
Gentle is as gentle does.

Welcome, I also think his voting record says it all but what is the intent of the ad? If it is to create name recognition and leave people with with a good feeling toward Ron Paul I think that it does a good job. The most powerful ad I have found is me talking face to face with someone and leaving them with a slim jim and my own RP "testimonial". Too bad the radio isn't able to do the same. I guess we'll just build on what they do. Maybe that's their hope anyway.

Paul4Prez
10-20-2007, 11:58 PM
The intro ad isn't bad, as a way to introduce Ron Paul to mainstream voters, and make them question why their favorite Fox News anchors have been smearing him.

The "Real Republican" radio ad was a little harder hitting, but they definitely need something a little more memorable.

Enthusiastic supporters saying why they support him is a great idea.

So is just having Ron Paul talk, about freedom and liberty. Just play a minute or two from his first big speech in Kansas City back in June.

And they should stop trying to soft pedal his opposition to the war. Yes, that is what he's best known for, but 70% of the voters still don't know about him. Don't hold back on his number one differentiating factor.

jgmaynard
10-21-2007, 12:00 AM
Proposed solution: new radio ad consisting of Ron Paul's boilerplate text

THAT should be in the radio ad. THAT should be on all of our signs. THAT is what will win people over.

I think that is a great idea. I think you should do it.

Write the script, produce the ad, raise the money (it's not THAT hard to start a PAC), get rate cards from the local stations and get it on the air.

JM

blamx8
10-21-2007, 12:01 AM
David,
I think that could be incredible, I hope it happens.

Ron LOL
10-21-2007, 12:04 AM
I think that is a great idea. I think you should do it.

Write the script, produce the ad, raise the money (it's not THAT hard to start a PAC), get rate cards from the local stations and get it on the air.

JM

I actually started on the first two this afternoon (which is what prompted my post) but lost steam when I realized I didn't know where to go next. One of my friends is a Cubase nerd (well, Logic these days, I think) and does production type stuff for local bands on the weekends, so he could probably find me cheap time in a booth.

Edit: oh, also, I'm working on some new signs in InDesign. I hope to finish in the next couple of days...will upload PDFs as soon as they're done.

Cunningham
10-21-2007, 12:05 AM
Sweet! Another dude with an inflated opinion of his own political instinct. You got here just in the nick of time. The last few months we've all been hanging out on this forum trying to figure out how to out think this damn campaign and save them from themselves. They really are a bunch of rubes. Now that we've got you here.....if you could just stand over here.... Yeah, right next to these other couple of hundred dudes that all have it figured out.... Uuhhh yep... The group of dudes all staring at the other dudes like they are a bunch of dolts, those guys. We're going to get a nice group photo before we put you all in a room together where you wunderkind can save the campaign. Your boilerplate idea is going to put us over the top, so simple we've missed it all this time. Thanks dude. Good looking out.

Ron LOL
10-21-2007, 12:06 AM
Sweet! Another dude with an inflated opinion of his own political instinct. You got here just in the nick of time. The last few months we've all been hanging out on this forum trying to figure out how to out think this damn campaign and save them from themselves. They really are a bunch of rubes. Now that we've got you here.....if you could just stand over here.... Yeah, right next to these other couple of hundred dudes that all have it figured out.... Uuhhh yep... The group of dudes all staring at the other dudes like they are a bunch of dolts, those guys. We're going to get a nice group photo before we put you all in a room together where you wunderkind can save the campaign. Your boilerplate idea is going to put us over the top, so simple we've missed it all this time. Thanks dude. Good looking out.

Cute, but go ahead and try to make an argument in favor of the ad posted to the front page. I think you might find it a tad difficult.

Lord Xar
10-21-2007, 12:06 AM
well, I think the list of "never have's" is a good thing, but you have to understand that 30 seconds is the desired radio ad, else most people tune out.... Now, if things were as easy as just saying the obvious and the truth - the idea of marketing would never even be an issue...

The idea is to sell. To bring thought and emotion.. if you are gonna read a boiler plate, you first have to have people "listen", and if you are just reading off points I am not sure that will happen. I think people will tune out.

If you listen to Ron Paul's ad, hear it as a story... there "is" a story line and there are cadences and such.. the boiler plate ad is not like that... you "could" read it in dramatic or purposeful manner, but I believe you would go over 60 seconds....

Also, you have to leave about 3-4 seconds for disclaimer and another 5 seconds for a lead in... so, the amount of time you have is very minimal..

BUT, I believe reading the boilerplate is good - just not "all" of it... because you have to wrap that within a leadin - and leadout.

jgmaynard
10-21-2007, 12:07 AM
Sweet! Good luck!

JM

davidhperry
10-21-2007, 12:09 AM
Sweet! Another dude with an inflated opinion of his own political instinct. You got here just in the nick of time. The last few months we've all been hanging out on this forum trying to figure out how to out think this damn campaign and save them from themselves. They really are a bunch of rubes. Now that we've got you here.....if you could just stand over here.... Yeah, right next to these other couple of hundred dudes that all have it figured out.... Uuhhh yep... The group of dudes all staring at the other dudes like they are a bunch of dolts, those guys. We're going to get a nice group photo before we put you all in a room together where you wunderkind can save the campaign. Your boilerplate idea is going to put us over the top, so simple we've missed it all this time. Thanks dude. Good looking out.

There are a lot of nutjobs on here with stupid ideas but I think his are good. I'm looking forward to seeing the signs.

davidhperry
10-21-2007, 12:13 AM
One reason the campaign might be shying away from the boiler plate is that Ron Paul's views are fairly unique. What I mean is that his views are not what one typically thinks of when they think about a republican/conservative. (I know that he's a true conservative, but the neo-cons have hijacked the term).

Anyway, the campaign might be hesitant to run an ad like that since you kind of have to know where he's coming from and digest things a bit before you really get it. Does that make sense? It's late and I'm starting to be incoherent. :)

CasualApathy
10-21-2007, 12:13 AM
Sweet! Another dude with an inflated opinion of his own political instinct. You got here just in the nick of time. The last few months we've all been hanging out on this forum trying to figure out how to out think this damn campaign and save them from themselves. They really are a bunch of rubes. Now that we've got you here.....if you could just stand over here.... Yeah, right next to these other couple of hundred dudes that all have it figured out.... Uuhhh yep... The group of dudes all staring at the other dudes like they are a bunch of dolts, those guys. We're going to get a nice group photo before we put you all in a room together where you wunderkind can save the campaign. Your boilerplate idea is going to put us over the top, so simple we've missed it all this time. Thanks dude. Good looking out.

Man, you're a downer.

And rude as well.

Try to be constructive, not destructive, or i may have to invoke the T-word.

Ron LOL
10-21-2007, 12:17 AM
Anyway, the campaign might be hesitant to run an ad like that since you kind of have to know where he's coming from and digest things a bit before you really get it. Does that make sense? It's late and I'm starting to be incoherent. :)

This is, actually, the number one problem the campaign faces IMO -- it's really difficult to distill Ron Paul's message without losing it.

But that being said, I maintain that the boilerplate is the best place to start.

Cunningham
10-21-2007, 12:25 AM
Man, you're a downer.

And rude as well.

Try to be constructive, not destructive, or i may have to invoke the T-word.

Oh hell... Not the T- word. But anyway, sorry man, it's late and i've been moving all day. It just seems like lately this forum, as it gets bigger, has devolved into everyone second-guessing the campaign and each others ideas. A bunch of genitalia waving for the most part. Your initial post seemed like more of the same, and on your first post of all things. Sorry if i pulled the trigger a little early. I think the guy faulks/ V ting set me in a bad mood today.

ronpaulyourmom
10-21-2007, 12:29 AM
I think the point of the ad is to reinforce a positive image of Ron Paul, get in a sticking point or two, and build a favorable base for when the listener sees him in a debate or hears about him from some other medium.

They'll probably follow up with more issue oriented ads in a week or so.

Anti Federalist
10-21-2007, 12:29 AM
I heard an ad on WCYY 94.3 (alt rock indie station) out of Portland ME, with coverage of eastern NH, and it did have the "boilerplate".

I have heard other ads that were more "conventional" on the "lite rock" stations (yuck) that my wife listens to.

Seems the campaign may not be so dumb, in that they look to be targeting differing demographics with a different message.

Don't ask me what the Country stations may be running, that goes above and beyond the call of duty.:D

LizF
10-21-2007, 12:36 AM
It's good to be constructively critical, but I strongly disagree with you about this ad being "terrible". I just listened to the ad and I liked it. In fact, I suspect that after listening to it, those who have never heard of RP, will
--have a favorable reaction to him
--become more interested in finding out more

As I see/hear it:

1) the ad is meant to introduce RP to people who have never heard of him before--not overwhelm them w/a bunch of aural bullet points.

2) the add tells a good story by painting a simple portrait of RP that the listener can remember 30 seconds later (and which distinguishes him from the other empty suits running in the GOP): miltary service; baby doc; decent guy; low taxes.

3) the mention of how he worked in an inner city ER (and treated everyone whether they could afford to pay or not) is important, as it highlights that he is not another heartless elitist with a Darwinian attitude towards the poor--which they could otherwise think since he running in the GOP (perceived as only caring about the interests of big business) and has been called the Taxpayer's best friend (countering the "Why he probably wants to cut a whole bunch of programs and let people starve!" argument).

4) gives them the campaign website so that they can get more info about him if they're hooked.

Ron Paul Fan
10-21-2007, 12:41 AM
I agree with Liz. And let's not forget that the campaign staff aren't novices at this. Congressman Paul has won 10 elections, 3 as a non-incumbent. He knows how to run a radio ad and knows when to step it up a notch. I liked the Real Republican radio ad better than this one, but this one is decent as an introduction. As we get closer to the primaries I suspect Congressman Paul will add some spunk to radio ads and more importantly, tv ads.

PaleoConservative
10-21-2007, 12:44 AM
The add is quite simply pure genius. My friend and I were both thrilled with it. This add is way better then the ones they did in Iowa for the Straw Poll. With the money we have, I look forward to them keeping up the radio commericals all the way up to election day!

LizF
10-21-2007, 12:44 AM
well, I think the list of "never have's" is a good thing, but you have to understand that 30 seconds is the desired radio ad, else most people tune out.... Now, if things were as easy as just saying the obvious and the truth - the idea of marketing would never even be an issue...

The idea is to sell. To bring thought and emotion.. if you are gonna read a boiler plate, you first have to have people "listen", and if you are just reading off points I am not sure that will happen. I think people will tune out.

If you listen to Ron Paul's ad, hear it as a story... there "is" a story line and there are cadences and such.. the boiler plate ad is not like that... you "could" read it in dramatic or purposeful manner, but I believe you would go over 60 seconds....

Also, you have to leave about 3-4 seconds for disclaimer and another 5 seconds for a lead in... so, the amount of time you have is very minimal..

BUT, I believe reading the boilerplate is good - just not "all" of it... because you have to wrap that within a leadin - and leadout.


Sorry, I started my post, got interupted, then sent it off a while later--not reading what you had already written (which was spot on).

parocks
10-21-2007, 12:49 AM
Cute, but go ahead and try to make an argument in favor of the ad posted to the front page. I think you might find it a tad difficult.

Argument in favor of the ad posted to the front page.

It's an introductory bio ad. It tells people who Ron Paul is. Military service, doctor delivering 4k babies, etc. All good things. Makes Ron Paul seem like a good man.
I don't think the goal with this particular ad is to convince dedicated libertarians to make more signs, rather to reach undecided voters, those who might not be watching the debates, and leave a good impression. I'm guessing that older voters and women might be potential targets here. I'm in favor. The grassroots is doing a great job of getting those politically active and disenchanted with the current political situation to support Ron Paul. Keep up the good work. But there are other voters needed. We aren't here because of the health care issue, but others could be, but more importantly, the overall message is that Ron Paul is a good man.

Minor quibbles with the ad, though, I think I would take out "big corporations or" - sounds like a democrat.
"...knows our health care system needs real change" - i'm not sure about the reading on that, I'd tone it down.

Overall, good ad.

davidhperry
10-21-2007, 01:05 AM
But that being said, I maintain that the boilerplate is the best place to start.

That's primarily what convinced me to get on board so you have a point there. :)

RP4ME
10-21-2007, 01:15 AM
I think he needs Adam Currys help in this manner. He too has said he gets better videos and ads form US not his staff and is planning to tell him so. Maybe adam can lend him his expertise....here. I think we need our A game in every situtaion.

davidhperry
10-21-2007, 01:32 AM
I think he needs Adam Currys help in this manner. He too has said he gets better videos and ads form US not his staff and is planning to tell him so. Maybe adam can lend him his expertise....here. I think we need our A game in every situtaion.

Yeah, is sounds like Adam has something cooking since he mentioned it a few days ago. I wonder if he'll get into that during the show on Wednesday.

LibertyEagle
10-21-2007, 03:03 AM
I think you've got some good points - the ad could be better but I think we've got to take the intended audience into account.

I believe it's aimed at a different crowd (middle-aged folks) than those who would typically be attracted to Ron Paul. It would be interesting to hear what kind of stations that intend to play it on.

Now THIS is hilarious!!!! Who do you think kept electing him back to office for TEN terms anyway? :D

Ron Paul is the very definition of traditional conservatism. He really is. People have just forgotten is all.

Bruehound
10-21-2007, 05:51 AM
To the OP. Why don't you submit your resume with all of your vast political and marketing experience to the campaign? Better yet, why don't you run for office yourself and that way you can control every word that comes out.

kylejack
10-21-2007, 06:04 AM
Ron Paul knows how to balance his sycophants with the relatively apolitical public. This ad doesn't say much for a reason.

wgadget
10-21-2007, 06:07 AM
I like the ad, too. It's a basic introduction to Ron Paul for those who may have never heard of him. I'm sure the campaign will be running follow-up ads emphasizing different issues.

P.S. HOW many successful campaigns has Dr. Paul run??

Corydoras
10-21-2007, 06:17 AM
The add is quite simply pure genius. My friend and I were both thrilled with it.

The ad must resonate on the "paleoconservative" brainwave frequency, because I too liked it. And we need paleos.

max
10-21-2007, 06:41 AM
RP needs to ATTACK Romney head on. Negative campaigning works and if he locks horns with a top tier guy he established himself as one of them....

Ads need to slam Romney as a flip flopper and Giuliani as a scumbag.

If RP doesnt get down and dirty we will lose

Alabama Supporter
10-21-2007, 06:59 AM
This is a good ad.

Corydoras
10-21-2007, 07:02 AM
If RP doesnt get down and dirty we will lose

But he can't do it until his profile is a higher. Otherwise, unless he is known for HIMSELF, he will come across to uninformed voters like a little dog grabbing the postman's cuffs. Unfortunate but true, I think.

lynnf
10-21-2007, 07:09 AM
But he can't do it until his profile is a higher. Otherwise, unless he is known for HIMSELF, he will come across to uninformed voters like a little dog grabbing the postman's cuffs. Unfortunate but true, I think.


going negative is not something to be done in the first ad, if ever. in similar fashion, I think the theory is to do something light for name recognition at first and then swing into heavier fare later. Politics 101, right you are.


lynn

TruckinMike
10-21-2007, 07:10 AM
I agree!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since we are on the topic of marketing... Who was the campaign genius that came up with Ron Paul -- "I dont have a message sign" -- The pathetic, message-less "Hope for America" sign.--- It doesn't even relay that he's running for PRESIDENT!!! As I've stated this in other posts... i had folks come up to my truck and ask is he running for Mayor????? Another guy asked if Ron PAul was in the Bible??? Do you see what I mean????

Are the folks up there stupid! Maybe we give them to much credit?? Is the "hope for America" sign an example of their marketing prowess? If so, its time we all pack it up and go home.

Unless...

WE get the message out. And DON'T rely on the MSM talk shows like Tucker and Leno.... Thats not going to cut it.

We must have a sign EXPLOSION! we need a 1000 times increase in the number of Ron Paul signs WITH messages!!! That can work... if you will allow yourself to bend the sign ordnances just a bit... Remember, this is a Revolution... did you forget?

If this does not happen.... its over.

Thompson supporters are going to go to huckabee... he will soon jump off the charts and surpass our man Paul. The race will then be between huck and Jive-ianni and romney

Truckinmike

Corydoras
10-21-2007, 07:17 AM
i had folks come up to my truck and ask is he running for Mayor????? Another guy asked if Ron PAul was in the Bible???

In the Bible? LOL I think that beats the "President of what?" I got.

Yes, I think we need to start getting out the word that he's running for PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

LibertyEagle
10-21-2007, 07:29 AM
I actually started on the first two this afternoon (which is what prompted my post) but lost steam when I realized I didn't know where to go next. One of my friends is a Cubase nerd (well, Logic these days, I think) and does production type stuff for local bands on the weekends, so he could probably find me cheap time in a booth.

Edit: oh, also, I'm working on some new signs in InDesign. I hope to finish in the next couple of days...will upload PDFs as soon as they're done.

You can hire professionals fairly inexpensively to do the voiceover. Send Lord Xar (Dean) a private message and he will cue you in.

LibertyEagle
10-21-2007, 07:31 AM
I agree!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since we are on the topic of marketing... Who was the campaign genius that came up with Ron Paul -- "I dont have a message sign" -- The pathetic, message-less "Hope for America" sign.--- It doesn't even relay that he's running for PRESIDENT!!! As I've stated this in other posts... i had folks come up to my truck and ask is he running for Mayor????? Another guy asked if Ron PAul was in the Bible??? Do you see what I mean????

Are the folks up there stupid! Maybe we give them to much credit?? Is the "hope for America" sign an example of their marketing prowess? If so, its time we all pack it up and go home.

Unless...

WE get the message out. And DON'T rely on the MSM talk shows like Tucker and Leno.... Thats not going to cut it.

We must have a sign EXPLOSION! we need a 1000 times increase in the number of Ron Paul signs WITH messages!!! That can work... if you will allow yourself to bend the sign ordnances just a bit... Remember, this is a Revolution... did you forget?

If this does not happen.... its over.

Thompson supporters are going to go to huckabee... he will soon jump off the charts and surpass our man Paul. The race will then be between huck and Jive-ianni and romney

Truckinmike

Mike,
What do you think about those Burma Shave style signs? I think that's what they are called anyway. You know, one sign after another that tell a message. At least with those you can get across a few of his positions, in addition to his name.

TruckinMike
10-21-2007, 08:16 AM
YES... Berma Shave signs!!! Thats exactly what we need!!! all across america... If I was home I could make a series of signs... maybe a 6 piece set(screen printed coroplast). and sell the set for cost. It would only be about $10 for all six signs in the series. I cannot do this... but we can let professionals make the screens and print the signs. The only problem is their markup... they will not sell them at cost. We could expect to pay $3 per sign or $18 for the set. There have been some folks selling the blue 18x24 for $2... if they would be willing to make this set and charge the same... that would work. $12.

If you web gurus could run with this concept --- RP could win. We need a sign army! There are 50,000 meetup members +/-. if each one permanently posted 3 of the sets ($36) ...in their local area ... On major roads. We could pull this thing off... But its up to us!!! --- Not campaign headquarters, not leno, etc...

NOTE: Coroplast has been responsible for buying my truck and putting food on my table.... it supported me for eight years.... I experimented with TV, Radio, and newspapers... even magazines... and dollar for dollar coroplast signs plastered all over the place was a much ... I repeat, a Much more cost effective way to go. The only catch... you must put the signs up yourself.

jake
10-21-2007, 08:19 AM
transitioning to a new nation-wide slogan in the place of the revolution, in due time, would be good

TruckinMike
10-21-2007, 08:31 AM
I Agree... its fine for the younger folks... and they already know Ron PAul.. we must now market to the 35 and up crowd (my crowd). People that I have questioned specifically about the logo have said it reminds them of flower children of the sixties, Pot heads, etc. NOT a GOOD image. It conjures up feelings of leftist hippies.

So how about "Champion of the Constitution"

We could pull this off if we all are of the same mind. Do you believe in the Berma shave ARMY? Do you believe in nixing the revolution logo?

If we have problems here... we are done.

Truckinmike