Israeli Forces Demolish Mosque in a wave of West Bank Demolitions

[Agorism]

Israeli Forces Demolish Mosque in a wave of West Bank Demolitions

http://josephdana.com/2010/11/israeli-forces-demolish-mosque-in-a-wave-of-west-bank-demolitions/


Israeli forces demolished Palestinian homes in the Jordan Valley and the South Hebron Hills today in what seems as a wave of demolitions following yesterday’s demolitions all across the West Bank. Non-violent leaders from Beit Ummar have also been arrested in night raids. Grassroots organizers Mousa and Yousef Abu Maria were arrested from their homes as harassment continues in Beit Ummar

After carrying demolitions in the villages of Qarawat Bani Hassan near Salfeet, al-Jiftlik in the Jordan Valley and Hizma near Jerusalem yesterday, Israeli bulldozers returned to the Jordan Valley today. At 6:30 this morning, Israeli Civil Administration bulldozers accompanied by soldiers and armored military jeeps entered the Jordan Valley village of Khirbet Yarza, east of Tubas, and demolished the village’s mosque, a houses and four animal shelters. The demolitions rendered eleven people homeless.

YouTube - Israel demolishes mosque (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVnB59uUwR0)

Demolitions continued later in the morning in the South Hebron Hills village of al-Rifayaia, east of Yatta, where at 8:15 AM Israeli forces demolished a 250 meter house. The house was home to two families of twenty people, 16 of them minors.

Over 60 percent of the West Bank is currently classified as Area C, in which, under the Oslo accords, Israel has complete control, over both civil and security issues. According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) some 70 percent of Area C, or approximately 44 percent of the West Bank, has been largely designated for the use of Israeli settlements or the Israeli military. The Israeli authorities generally allow Palestinian construction only within the boundaries of an Israeli-approved plan and these cover less than one percent of Area C, much of which is already built-up. As a result, Palestinians are left with no choice but to build “illegally” and risk demolition of their structures and displacement.

According to information released by the Israeli State Attorney’s Office in early December 2009, approximately 2,450 Palestinian-owned structures in Area C have been demolished due to lack of permit over the course of the past 12 years.

Early Thursday morning, at approximately 2:00am, Israeli forces from the Gush Etzion military base came to the homes of brothers and National Committee members Yousef and Mousa Abu Maria. Both are also co-founders of the Palestine Solidarity Project.

Mousa, whose wife and baby girl–both Israeli citizens–were visiting family, was forced outside while his home was searched. 3 computers belonging to the Palestine Solidarity Project were taken. Yousef, father of 10 year-old Reem, 4 year-old Obay, and 1 month-old Della’, was also taken from his home in the middle of the night.

Both were held outside in freezing temperatures in Gush Etzion military base for over 5 hours; neither were allowed to put on proper shoes or clothing and repeated requests to be put inside were denied.

The soldiers, who have been harassing the committee of Beit Ommar for months now, including a previous late-night home invasion last month, accused both brothers of organizing the demonstrations in Beit Ommar, held every Saturday against the illegal settlements surrounding Beit Ommar, particularly Karmei Tsur. They were also “accused” of “bringing internationals” to Beit Ommar.

The brothers were also threatened if they did not stop the PSP program of reclaiming land in Saffa, this just days after settlers from nearby Bat ‘Ayn settlement set fire to Saffa land. In addition to Mousa and Yousef, two youth from Saffa were also arrested and released the next day.

From the Popular Struggle Coordination Committee.

[amy31416]

They destroyed a road that Palestinians used to get to their farms as well. Apparently they'll have to go back to donkey carts now.

They want another intifada to push off the peace talks and the possibility of them declaring a state.

[Fozz]

...

[ExPatPaki]

Non-violent leaders from Beit Ummar have also been arrested in night raids. Grassroots organizers Mousa and Yousef Abu Maria were arrested from their homes as harassment continues in Beit Ummar

People are always criticizing the Palestinians for not having a non-violent movement. They have one, but their leaders are all in Israeli jails.

[eugenekop]

I don't really want to start a debate over this, because I've been debating on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for years. However I'll say this. I completely support Ron Paul in his full non interventionism. I oppose both the Iraqi and the Afghan wars.

However I completely support all Israeli actions against the Palestinians, and I think they should be much more aggressive.

What people usually mistakenly do is they take their own political situation and apply it to other regions. Well I must say that the vast majority of Americans and Europeans are utterly clueless about this conflict, even if they think they know a lot about it.

[cindy25]

destroying a mosque is stupid, unless you want a war.

[Mach]

I don't really want to start a debate over this, because I've been debating on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for years. However I'll say this. I completely support Ron Paul in his full non interventionism. I oppose both the Iraqi and the Afghan wars.

However I completely support all Israeli actions against the Palestinians, and I think they should be much more aggressive.

What people usually mistakenly do is they take their own political situation and apply it to other regions. Well I must say that the vast majority of Americans and Europeans are utterly clueless about this conflict, even if they think they know a lot about it.

We are clueless, but you are even worse, you are biased.

[Agorism]

Maybe he's a John Taylor sock puppet.

[DAFTEK]

..

[ExPatPaki]

We are clueless, but you are even worse, you are biased.


He is biased, but I would say most Americans are not really clueless. This is a very simple situation. One group/tribe/people who considers themselves God's "chosen" have stolen another people's land.
The thieves made the mistake of not destroying the Palestinians culture with includes both Islamic and Christian traditions.
This is why you will commonly hear such statements from right wing Zionists:


However I completely support all Israeli actions against the Palestinians, and I think they should be much more aggressive.

You will not hear such statements from other Jews who are also Zionist such as Chomsky and Finklestein.

[eugenekop]

He is biased, but I would say most Americans are not really clueless. This is a very simple situation. One group/tribe/people who considers themselves God's "chosen" have stolen another people's land.

I vote for the most hawkish parties in Israel, but in America I would have voted for Ron Paul or for anyone else who would propose to remove all military bases from around the world, immediately stop the Iraqi and Afghan wars, withdraw from international alliances, and stop intervening in other countries.

How do I reconcile this? Easily, the situation is completely different. America does not need to be involved, its a huge country that can live in relative peace if she stopped using its huge power to meddle with the affairs of others.

Israel is a small country surrounded by hundreds of millions of people who won't rest until Israel is completely destroyed and the Jews either deported or killed. Now since we are not going to pack our things and move to Europe (we know what happens to Jews in Europe), and since we're going to stay in Israel, the worst thing we could do is to concede more lands, give in to more demands, and be seen as weak. That's the path to complete destruction.

[low preference guy]

How do you view foreign aid from the United States to Israel? Are you aware that Ron Paul would slash that?

[eugenekop]

I support the slashing of American aid to Israel, although it might somewhat hurt Israeli defense (not seriously though), but it is a matter of principle. America should stop defending nations around the world, they should defend themselves.

[Agorism]

Our foreign aid to Egypt is because they prevent things from entering Gaza...for the most part.

[amy31416]

Israel is a small country surrounded by hundreds of millions of people who won't rest until Israel is completely destroyed and the Jews either deported or killed. Now since we are not going to pack our things and move to Europe (we know what happens to Jews in Europe), and since we're going to stay in Israel, the worst thing we could do is to concede more lands, give in to more demands, and be seen as weak. That's the path to complete destruction.

So you believe Israel has to survive by wiping another people off the map, erasing their history and humiliating their people?

I'm sure that bulldozing olive trees on several hundred-year-old farms and making children and elderly homeless contributes quite a bit to your "tough" image.

That's a fantastic long-term plan. I'm sure there isn't a better way.

[eugenekop]

No one is trying to humiliate anyone or wipe anyone's land. The whole purpose is to defend ourselves against hordes of terrorists and regimes that wish to wipe us from the map.


As Benjaimin Netanihu said:


if the Arabs lay down their arms there will be no more war, but if Israel lays down its weapons there would be no more Israel."

Nothing better describes this conflict.

[amy31416]

No one is trying to humiliate anyone or wipe anyone's land. The whole purpose is to defend ourselves against hordes of terrorists and regimes that wish to wipe us from the map.


As Benjaimin Netanihu said:



Nothing better describes this conflict.

Bullshit.

http://www.gregfelton.com/media/2009_10_25_Palestinemap.gif

Any thinking American can realize what we did to the Native Americans was wrong, and it is a very regrettable and immoral part of American history. You have the ability to stop what you're doing, yet you justify it by pretending there isn't possibly a better way. And the shit your gov't does to the Palestinians has a direct effect on the US and our military--WE pay for your apartheid, your racism, your land theft and your wars.

And that, of course, is not entirely Israel's fault--our politicians and many of our citizens fall for the giant propaganda campaign in the US.

Do you have any moral qualms with the fact your government is trying to push us to go to war with Iran, after we've already gone to war in Iraq for your country, and were attacked (in part) for our support of your country on 9/11? Or is it nifty to be able to use someone else's resources, human lives and infrastructure while doing nothing to contribute? (Zero Israeli troops assisted in Afghanistan or Iraq--I'm sure it will be the same case if we get bamboozled into Iran.)

[eugenekop]

If your government is stupid enough to go to wars , then its not our fault, its the fault of your government. And please don't make everything revolve around Israel, that's an illusion.

All the wars fought by Israel were wars of defense, and all the territories that were conquered were conquered in wars of defense. As long as our neighbors will try to annihilate us, we will punish them by taking more lands.

[Agorism]

Israel is a socialist state even more so than the Euro states.

I'd be amazed if any of these countries survive without behind the scenes bailouts from the Federal Reserve.

[amy31416]

If your government is stupid enough to go to wars , then its not our fault, its the fault of your government. And please don't make everything revolve around Israel, that's an illusion.

All the wars fought by Israel were wars of defense, and all the territories that were conquered were conquered in wars of defense. As long as our neighbors will try to annihilate us, we will punish them by taking more lands.

LOL

So you do think it's funny. Fair enough.

Cast Lead was NOT defense. Israel broke the cease-fire with Hamas, which strangely even got some play on the MSM.

Stealing land as a result of warfare is illegal. You want people to "recognize" Israel? Stop doing immoral, unethical and illegal things.

A "scorched earth" policy is not sustainable in a "civilized" society.

Are you capable of putting yourself in a Palestinian's shoes, or are they animals to you? Are you capable of thinking outside your own government's propaganda? If not, you'll never see a better way, and eventually Israel will either turn into a totalitarian state like many of it's neighbors, or fall.

[eugenekop]

Israel is about as socialist as the European countries, a bit less so. Look at our Gini index for example.


Cast Lead was NOT defense. Israel broke the cease-fire with Hamas, which strangely even got some play on the MSM.

That's ridiculous. More than 5000 Quassam rockets were fired at Israel By Hamas for 7 years, until finally our impotent government decided to act.


Stealing land as a result of warfare is illegal. You want people to "recognize" Israel? Stop doing immoral, unethical and illegal things.

Attacking another country is also illegal, and those who start wars should bear the responsibility in case they lose.


Are you capable of putting yourself in a Palestinian's shoes, or are they animals to you?

No, they are not animals, but they are as brainwashed as the German population was brainwashed in the thirties. They cannot act rationally because their T.V shows them only lies.

[jmdrake]

That's ridiculous. More than 5000 Quassam rockets were fired at Israel By Hamas for 7 years, until finally our impotent government decided to act.


Right. And during that entire 7 year period no rockets or missiles or bullets were fired in the other direction. ;)





No, they are not animals, but they are as brainwashed as the German population was brainwashed in the thirties. They cannot act rationally because their T.V shows them only lies.

Yes. They should watch the Sopranos so they can know how the world really works. Anyhow, the whole situation is a classic example of why the United Nations never should have been created and why we should quit sending foreign aid to either side.

[amy31416]

Israel is about as socialist as the European countries, a bit less so. Look at our Gini index for example.



That's ridiculous. More than 5000 Quassam rockets were fired at Israel By Hamas for 7 years, until finally our impotent government decided to act.



Attacking another country is also illegal, and those who start wars should bear the responsibility in case they lose.



No, they are not animals, but they are as brainwashed as the German population was brainwashed in the thirties. They cannot act rationally because their T.V shows them only lies.


The irony is incredible. You should check out the movie Defamation, made by an Israeli fellow--quite a bit of it is about how Israelis are groomed/propagandized to believe that the whole world is out to get them. Of course, that justifies any immoral act it chooses to partake in.

Cast Lead was NOT self-defense. You're showing your brainwashing. How do you feel about the white phosphorus used? The civilians intentionally targeted? The human shields used by the IDF?

You seem to have a JDL mentality. How do you feel about Rabbi Meir Kahane? Kach?

[eugenekop]

Cast Lead was NOT self-defense. You're showing your brainwashing. How do you feel about the white phosphorus used? The civilians intentionally targeted? The human shields used by the IDF?

How was it not self defense when 5000 Quassam rockets were fired at Israel from Gaza? I don't get it. Why would Israel attack Gaza if it were not for the rockets? Was it just for fun? Be serious.

I have no problem with white phosphorus or human shields. When you fight people and nations that don't care about engagement laws, you don't use engagement laws yourself. It would be foolish to hold yourself for ridiculously high standards when the other side has no standards at all.

[amy31416]

How was it not self defense when 5000 Quassam rockets were fired at Israel from Gaza? I don't get it. Why would Israel attack Gaza if it were not for the rockets? Was it just for fun? Be serious.

I have no problem with white phosphorus or human shields. When you fight people and nations that don't care about engagement laws, you don't use engagement laws yourself. It would be foolish to hold yourself for ridiculously high standards when the other side has no standards at all.

Why do you think they attacked Gaza, when they did?

1. Israel broke the cease-fire on Nov. 4th--the night Obama was elected. They used this as cover to continue to pretend that Hamas had broken the ceasefire.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians
YouTube - Israel admits: "No Hamas rockets were fired during ceasefire" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c&feature=player_embedded)
YouTube - CNN Confirms Israel Broke Ceasefire First (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4)
YouTube - Who Broke The Cease Fire - Hamas or Israel 2008 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SILJxPTqjAM&feature=player_embedded)

The reason that Israel attacked Gaza? It is speculated that they wanted to make sure that they destroyed Gaza's infrastructure before Israel cheerleader GW Bush left office. It's no accident about the timing of the beginning or ending of the operation.

2. You say that Hamas has no standards, but they are not the ones who are stealing your land out from underneath you. They are not the ones who broke the ceasefire. They are not even the ones who refuse to recognize Israel, while Israel refuses to recognize Palestine.

You have no problem with human shields? Only when the IDF does it, right? What if Hamas used Shalit as a shield? Bet you'd lose your shit. What if Hamas or Hezbollah dropped white phosphorous on densely populated Tel Aviv? Bet you'd be screaming about war crimes, eh chief?

If you're going to hold such a violent, unethical position, I hope you'll at least attempt to be consistent and stop whining about ineffective rocket attacks that harm almost nobody.

[eugenekop]

You ignore the 8000 Quassam rockets that were fired at Israeli cities and make up some conspiracy theory about destroying Gaza's infrastructure before Bush leaves office. That's ridiculous.


You have no problem with human shields? Only when the IDF does it, right? What if Hamas used Shalit as a shield? Bet you'd lose your shit. What if Hamas or Hezbollah dropped white phosphorous on densely populated Tel Aviv? Bet you'd be screaming about war crimes, eh chief?


Hamas is already doing terrible things, they specifically target our civilian population, whereas we do more than any other army in the world to target only militants.

The whole debate about which measures should or should not be used in a war is futile. As long as Palestinians will not recognize Israel and will be willing to leave peacefully with us, there will be war, and we need to win this war, not to look nice on T.V.

[pcosmar]

Why should they have to leave their lands just because some Europeans moved in and took over?
Lands that they had lived on for generations.

Why wouldn't they resist these foreign occupiers ?

[jmdrake]

You ignore the 8000 Quassam rockets that were fired at Israeli cities and make up some conspiracy theory about destroying Gaza's infrastructure before Bush leaves office. That's ridiculous.


Do you understand the meaning of the word "ceasefire"? Ceasefire implies that prior to the ceasefire somebody was firing. Yes before the ceasefire Hamas was firing rockets into Israel and Israel was firing rockets into Gaza. (Of course only the rockets fired by Hamas count in your world view). Nobody debates that Hamas was firing rockets into Israel before the cease fire.

[eugenekop]

Why should they have to leave their lands just because some Europeans moved in and took over?
Lands that they had lived on for generations.

Why wouldn't they resist these foreign occupiers ?

They don't have to move. 22% of the Israeli population are Arabs and they love Israel. Those who wanted to drive Jews from Israel and lost, of course left.


Yes before the ceasefire Hamas was firing rockets into Israel and Israel was firing rockets into Gaza. (Of course only the rockets fired by Hamas count in your world view)

The ceasefire with Hamas was a joke and it shouldn't have happened at all. The point is that Israel has no interest whatsoever in controlling Palestinians or killing anyone. We only want to live in our land peacefully. Unfortunately all of our neighbors have explicit goals of driving the Jews out of here. The main goal of Hamas is to murder all Jews, as clearly stated in their charter. Our only goal is to have a Jewish state in Israel. If you understand our interests and the interests of our neighbors, you will see this conflict in its real light.

[amy31416]

You ignore the 8000 Quassam rockets that were fired at Israeli cities and make up some conspiracy theory about destroying Gaza's infrastructure before Bush leaves office. That's ridiculous.



Hamas is already doing terrible things, they specifically target our civilian population, whereas we do more than any other army in the world to target only militants.

The whole debate about which measures should or should not be used in a war is futile. As long as Palestinians will not recognize Israel and will be willing to leave peacefully with us, there will be war, and we need to win this war, not to look nice on T.V.

When will Israel recognize Palestine? Considering that they're the ones with all the big guns, they should take the high road.

And just about every Arab state has agreed to recognize Israel if they pull back to '67 borders--that's more than generous.

The IDF specifically targets Palestinian civilians--how can you claim any higher ground here? And the claim that you "do more to target only militants" is total bullshit.

http://backspace.com/notes/images/1shot2kills.jpg

If the timing is a conspiracy, you explain why the war started just after Obama won, then ended just before he took office. You explain why Israel broke the ceasefire on November 4th.

[jmdrake]

The ceasefire with Hamas was a joke and it shouldn't have happened at all. The point is that Israel has no interest whatsoever in controlling Palestinians or killing anyone. We only want to live in our land peacefully. Unfortunately all of our neighbors have explicit goals of driving the Jews out of here. The main goal of Hamas is to murder all Jews, as clearly stated in their charter. Our only goal is to have a Jewish state in Israel. If you understand our interests and the interests of our neighbors, you will see this conflict in its real light.

Ah. So you admit that Israel did violate the ceasefire and you're happy about it. Fair enough. It's one thing to say "Israel never should have agreed to a ceasefire". It's another to thing to say "Israel didn't violate it".

[Hugo]

I find this quote from the first Prime Minister of Israel quite strange:

I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.
As quoted in The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann (translated by Steve Cox), p. 99. ISBN 0-448-15166-9

How should this be intepreted or understood?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I don't really want to start a debate over this, because I've been debating on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for years. However I'll say this. I completely support Ron Paul in his full non interventionism. I oppose both the Iraqi and the Afghan wars.

However I completely support all Israeli actions against the Palestinians, and I think they should be much more aggressive.

What people usually mistakenly do is they take their own political situation and apply it to other regions. Well I must say that the vast majority of Americans and Europeans are utterly clueless about this conflict, even if they think they know a lot about it.

Can Mexicans count on amnesty support from Jewish illegal alien piers who conducted mass invasions via illegal immigration to Palestine in the 1930's?

[osan]

I support the slashing of American aid to Israel, although it might somewhat hurt Israeli defense (not seriously though), but it is a matter of principle. America should stop defending nations around the world, they should defend themselves.

We agree. I might point out, however, that cutting all aid to Israel would virtually guarantee a nuclear exchange. Israel is in no way capable of defending itself conventionally without the USA's IV line. Absolutely impossible. If the US pulled its support, the surrounding nations would be on them in an instant, thereby necessitating the release of their nuclear forces, which could readily light off WW III. The Targets of Israeli bombs would be mostly in the backyard of Russia and to a lesser extent, China, not to mention India and Pakistan. It is not comfortably likely that the Russians would sit idly by for this, though it is possible. If they released 10 strategic-yield bombs in response, there would be no more Israel. If perchance the USA decided to retaliate, there would be no more Russia. God only knows what would happen thereafter.

[Number19]

And I might point out that virtually everyone on this forum refuses to acknowledge this probability and still advocates immediate withdrawal of all aid to Israel, regardless of any consequences.

But I'm not sure your scenario is accurate. What we don't know is whether Israel possesses tactical nuclear weapons, as opposed to strategic weapons. I'm going to guess that this limited, battle field TNW comprises the bulk of their arsenal.

[BlackTyrone]

And I might point out that virtually everyone on this forum refuses to acknowledge this probability and still advocates immediate withdrawal of all aid to Israel, regardless of any consequences.



MAD worked for us, why not Israel?

Who would attack a country with over 300 nukes?

[ExPatPaki]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/sep/21/israelandthepalestinians.bookextracts


But would the world permit such ethnic cleansing? 'That depends on who does it and how quickly it happens. We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother." I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.'

[eugenekop]

1.

How should this be intepreted or understood?

I doubt very much this quote is correct. Nonetheless there is some truth in that quote. The Arabs want us out of here, they see us as foreign invaders who stole their land. What we want is just to live in peace in our land. Every few years the Arabs attack us and we drive them back each time. Sometimes we punish them by capturing lands, sometimes we give lands in return for a ceasefire.

Unless the Arabs will lose the hope of destroying Israel, the military blows won't end. Unfortunately the Arabs are being instigated by a hateful and irrational religion and media, so they are unlikely to forgo that hope.

2.
American aid to Israel is about 3% of our budget. We can definitely live without it. Of course this shouldn't mean that America should stop selling us weapons.

3.
Regarding the Gaza war.



Thank you, Mr. President.

I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Government’s Joint Intelligence Committee.

Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population.

Hamas, like Hizballah, are expert at driving the media agenda. Both will always have people ready to give interviews condemning Israeli forces for war crimes. They are adept at staging and distorting incidents.

The IDF faces a challenge that we British do not have to face to the same extent. It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong, that they are abusing human rights.

The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties. During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.

Despite all of this, of course innocent civilians were killed. War is chaos and full of mistakes. There have been mistakes by the British, American and other forces in Afghanistan and in Iraq, many of which can be put down to human error. But mistakes are not war crimes.

More than anything, the civilian casualties were a consequence of Hamas’ way of fighting. Hamas deliberately tried to sacrifice their own civilians.

Mr. President, Israel had no choice apart from defending its people, to stop Hamas from attacking them with rockets.

And I say this again: the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

Thank you, Mr. President.

4.
If you want the truth about this conflict, the Guardian is the last place you should go to.

[amy31416]

http://www.goldstonereport.org/

You see, "Eugene," the main difference between most of us here and you, is that we don't try to justify the atrocious things that our gov't does in our name--you do.

And many of us have read http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf

Gov't propaganda is dishonest and tedious whether it comes from the US or Israel. Think for yourself.

[Agorism]

Average age in Gaza is 13.

[pcosmar]

Who keeps +repping this troll ?

:confused:

[HOLLYWOOD]

Israel... inciting terrorism since 1949.

Don't forget the parts of AID which are never counted... Zionist buddies gave cheap loans to Israel last year to the tune of $12 Billion.

Covertly, the US also subsidizes, produce, products, ie tomatoes, silicon chips, phrama, etc... :rolleyes:

Why do American taxpayers have to pay to migrate Jews back to Israel every year? On average $50 million a year for the past 20 years.

Then there's the special Tax Write-offs to a foreign nation... Israel only, which is basically a tax on the American people which lose the revenue to the American budget.

Oh, well at least Israel was thoughtful enough to develop 40-50 neutron nuclear warheads... so when they use them, it just kills the people with short duration high radiation and doesn't destroy the infrastructures they can move in upon.

[virgil47]

destroying a mosque is stupid, unless you want a war.

Yes. We must all fear the Moslems lest they send their women and children to bomb us all out of existence. Remember it is okay for them to kill Christians and destroy churches but not the other way around.

[virgil47]

He is biased, but I would say most Americans are not really clueless. This is a very simple situation. One group/tribe/people who considers themselves God's "chosen" have stolen another people's land.
The thieves made the mistake of not destroying the Palestinians culture with includes both Islamic and Christian traditions.
This is why you will commonly hear such statements from right wing Zionists:


You will not hear such statements from other Jews who are also Zionist such as Chomsky and Finklestein.

Wow the communists wouldn't make such statements!!! We must do as the moslem appologists and communists say.

[virgil47]

So you believe Israel has to survive by wiping another people off the map, erasing their history and humiliating their people?

I'm sure that bulldozing olive trees on several hundred-year-old farms and making children and elderly homeless contributes quite a bit to your "tough" image.

That's a fantastic long-term plan. I'm sure there isn't a better way.

Study history! The Jews were there first!

[james1906]

They don't have to move. 22% of the Israeli population are Arabs and they love Israel.


They do? I've been to Israel and with the exception of the Druzes, I didn't find this to be the case. And I know the Druzes aren't really big on living in Israel now as they're routinely discriminated against. The Bedouins are indifferent to what country they live in. The Arab neighborhoods of Nazareth, Acre, Jaffa....they did not consider themselves Israelis. I know the Arabs and Jews in Acre do not interact because the police stopped me when I left the Arab neighborhood because non-Arabs never go there.

[virgil47]

Bullshit.

http://www.gregfelton.com/media/2009_10_25_Palestinemap.gif

Any thinking American can realize what we did to the Native Americans was wrong, and it is a very regrettable and immoral part of American history. You have the ability to stop what you're doing, yet you justify it by pretending there isn't possibly a better way. And the shit your gov't does to the Palestinians has a direct effect on the US and our military--WE pay for your apartheid, your racism, your land theft and your wars.

And that, of course, is not entirely Israel's fault--our politicians and many of our citizens fall for the giant propaganda campaign in the US.

Do you have any moral qualms with the fact your government is trying to push us to go to war with Iran, after we've already gone to war in Iraq for your country, and were attacked (in part) for our support of your country on 9/11? Or is it nifty to be able to use someone else's resources, human lives and infrastructure while doing nothing to contribute? (Zero Israeli troops assisted in Afghanistan or Iraq--I'm sure it will be the same case if we get bamboozled into Iran.)

Would you like to see some maps of when the Romans were in the area or how about maps of the Americas before the Europeans arrived. If you will look a little furthe back you will see that the Israelites controlled the entire area. Picking and choosing the time line is a sure fire way to make maps say whatever you want them to say.

[virgil47]

LOL

So you do think it's funny. Fair enough.

Cast Lead was NOT defense. Israel broke the cease-fire with Hamas, which strangely even got some play on the MSM.

Stealing land as a result of warfare is illegal. You want people to "recognize" Israel? Stop doing immoral, unethical and illegal things.

A "scorched earth" policy is not sustainable in a "civilized" society.

Are you capable of putting yourself in a Palestinian's shoes, or are they animals to you? Are you capable of thinking outside your own government's propaganda? If not, you'll never see a better way, and eventually Israel will either turn into a totalitarian state like many of it's neighbors, or fall.

All cease fires with terrorist organizations only serve one purpose. It gives the terrorists time to resupply and reconfigure their forces. Terrorist organizations have absolutely no desire for peace! Their only goal is conquest and if they must sacrifice their families and the families of others they will do so. Most of the leadership of the terrorist forces are total cowards. They always send the stupid or overzealous amongst them to blow themselves up in the name of Islam but they NEVER blow themselves up. Hmmm, maybe their stated beliefs are really self serving B.S.

[ExPatPaki]

Remember it is okay for them to kill Christians and destroy churches but not the other way around.

Yes Israel has killed many Christians and destroyed many churches in the process.

[ExPatPaki]

Wow the communists wouldn't make such statements!!! We must do as the moslem appologists and communists say.

Your rants amuse me.

[virgil47]

Why should they have to leave their lands just because some Europeans moved in and took over?
Lands that they had lived on for generations.

Why wouldn't they resist these foreign occupiers ?

The question you must ask yourself is at what point in history did it supposedly become their land? When was the last Palestinian government in force? If you take an honest look at the history of the region you will find that the Israelies controlled the area for thousands of years and that there has NEVER been a Palestinian government as there was no country of Palestine. The so called Palestinians were and to a certain extent still are a nomadic tribal oriented people. They were never a cohesive society that formed governments or kingdoms.

[amy31416]

All cease fires with terrorist organizations only serve one purpose. It gives the terrorists time to resupply and reconfigure their forces. Terrorist organizations have absolutely no desire for peace! Their only goal is conquest and if they must sacrifice their families and the families of others they will do so. Most of the leadership of the terrorist forces are total cowards. They always send the stupid or overzealous amongst them to blow themselves up in the name of Islam but they NEVER blow themselves up. Hmmm, maybe their stated beliefs are really self serving B.S.

Try to keep up, buddy, this ain't biblical times. God ain't a real estate agent, and the bible isn't a land deed and/or a license to kill, steal and oppress.

And in regard to your claim that Jews were there first--what? Were they droplifted by God from another planet into a completely uninhabited area?

No. HUMAN BEINGS were there first, thousands and thousands of years ago--even before Judaism! :eek: NO WAY DUDE! And if you hadn't noticed, quite a few Jews left--for many different reasons...just as my ancestors left/fled Russia, Transylvania, England, Denmark and Germany and ended up here. I do not have a stake in those countries. I do not have a right to anyone's property there, no matter what I think of the character of those people who now inhabit those lands.

[virgil47]

Do you understand the meaning of the word "ceasefire"? Ceasefire implies that prior to the ceasefire somebody was firing. Yes before the ceasefire Hamas was firing rockets into Israel and Israel was firing rockets into Gaza. (Of course only the rockets fired by Hamas count in your world view). Nobody debates that Hamas was firing rockets into Israel before the cease fire.

Again "cease fire" means stopping war fare and talking to the non Muslim peoples. However it means resupply and regrouping to the Muslims.

[amy31416]

The question you must ask yourself is at what point in history did it supposedly become their land? When was the last Palestinian government in force? If you take an honest look at the history of the region you will find that the Israelies controlled the area for thousands of years and that there has NEVER been a Palestinian government as there was no country of Palestine. The so called Palestinians were and to a certain extent still are a nomadic tribal oriented people. They were never a cohesive society that formed governments or kingdoms.

Ahh. Another person who denies the existence of Palestine or Palestinians. The Israelis controlled the area for a very minimal amount of time, relatively speaking.

There's no need to lie about it. Israel is established, it ain't going anywhere--but we need to stop funding their bullshit, plain and simple. We need to stop funding ALL the bullshit in the ME and around the globe, for that matter.

[virgil47]

We agree. I might point out, however, that cutting all aid to Israel would virtually guarantee a nuclear exchange. Israel is in no way capable of defending itself conventionally without the USA's IV line. Absolutely impossible. If the US pulled its support, the surrounding nations would be on them in an instant, thereby necessitating the release of their nuclear forces, which could readily light off WW III. The Targets of Israeli bombs would be mostly in the backyard of Russia and to a lesser extent, China, not to mention India and Pakistan. It is not comfortably likely that the Russians would sit idly by for this, though it is possible. If they released 10 strategic-yield bombs in response, there would be no more Israel. If perchance the USA decided to retaliate, there would be no more Russia. God only knows what would happen thereafter.

Agreed.

[ExPatPaki]

Palestinians were the first Jews in that area. Most of them converted to either Islam or Christianity after the subsequent invasions. Palestinians today have more "Jewish" blood in them than the Israelis who came from Europe do.

[virgil47]

MAD worked for us, why not Israel?

Who would attack a country with over 300 nukes?

People that think that dying is the ultimate achievement and what better way than to destroy your enemies at the same time.

[Flash]

The question you must ask yourself is at what point in history did it supposedly become their land? When was the last Palestinian government in force? If you take an honest look at the history of the region you will find that the Israelies controlled the area for thousands of years and that there has NEVER been a Palestinian government as there was no country of Palestine. The so called Palestinians were and to a certain extent still are a nomadic tribal oriented people. They were never a cohesive society that formed governments or kingdoms.

Not forming a government or kingdom doesn't make a group of people non-existent. And I really don't understand the "There is no such thing as a Palestinian" argument, as these are the same people who think modern day Jews are descendants of Israelites. If they are being honest they would admit there is really no such thing as a single jewish race, and it's a slim chance that the Israelites of ancient days are still around. And even if it were true that Palestinians were not a people, just mere immigrants in the area, they still owned the land legitimately. They were using the land, after all. So what right does a state have to steal that land from them? This is yet another example of religion, statism, and racism screwing everything up.

[virgil47]

http://www.goldstonereport.org/

You see, "Eugene," the main difference between most of us here and you, is that we don't try to justify the atrocious things that our gov't does in our name--you do.

And many of us have read http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf

Gov't propaganda is dishonest and tedious whether it comes from the US or Israel. Think for yourself.

Many here are Muslim apologists and anti Israel zealots! That does not make them correct.

[virgil47]

Israel... inciting terrorism since 1949.

Don't forget the parts of AID which are never counted... Zionist buddies gave cheap loans to Israel last year to the tune of $12 Billion.

Covertly, the US also subsidizes, produce, products, ie tomatoes, silicon chips, phrama, etc... :rolleyes:

Why do American taxpayers have to pay to migrate Jews back to Israel every year? On average $50 million a year for the past 20 years.

Then there's the special Tax Write-offs to a foreign nation... Israel only, which is basically a tax on the American people which lose the revenue to the American budget.

Oh, well at least Israel was thoughtful enough to develop 40-50 neutron nuclear warheads... so when they use them, it just kills the people with short duration high radiation and doesn't destroy the infrastructures they can move in upon.

Pure socialist bunk!!!

[virgil47]

Yes Israel has killed many Christians and destroyed many churches in the process.

Spoken like a true Muslim apologist. Kill and then blame someone else.

[amy31416]

Many here are Muslim apologists and anti Israel zealots! That does not make them correct.

When your only defense of a people is at the expense of another, YOU push people to take sides...and you, sir, are an Israeli apologist and a pro-Israel zealot at the expense of the truth.

What was that that PCOsmar said about a kettle and a pot?

[amy31416]

Spoken like a true Muslim apologist. Kill and then blame someone else.

You familiar with Sabra and Shatila?

[ExPatPaki]

Spoken like a true Muslim apologist. Kill and then blame someone else.

Oh so now you're denying that Israel kills Christians and destroys churches? Must be fun to be a mental patient like yourself.

[virgil47]

When your only defense of a people is at the expense of another, YOU push people to take sides...and you, sir, are an Israeli apologist and a pro-Israel zealot at the expense of the truth.

What was that that PCOsmar said about a kettle and a pot?

I simply look at the history of the region and realize that those that would lay claim to the land of Israel are the interlopers. They were not there first and they never formed a coherent society but even though they are still not capable of forming a society that can take its place on the world stage they wish to uproot the rightful owners of Israel. You my dear are simply unwilling to look at the history of the region and see the truth. I get the feeling that you are a pure anarchist and would love to see the abolishment of all governments and the destruction of all and every cultures around the world.

[virgil47]

Oh so now you're denying that Israel kills Christians and destroys churches? Must be fun to be a mental patient like yourself.

Have you been following the purge of Christians in Iraq of late or do you simply look the other way put your fingers in your ears and say lalala.

[ExPatPaki]

Have you been following the purge of Christians in Iraq of late or do you simply look the other way put your fingers in your ears and say lalala.

Yes, this is happening thanks to the war started by George W. Bush and Tony Blair on behalf of Israel. If Israel didn't exist, then we wouldn't be in Iraq and Christians in Iraq would be free today. But then again, you support the genocide of Palestinian Christians, so what do you care?

[Flash]

Yes, this is happening thanks to the war started by George W. Bush and Tony Blair on behalf of Israel. If Israel didn't exist, then we wouldn't be in Iraq and Christianis in Iraq would be free today.

Well if we didn't get involved with other nation's affairs at all there wouldn't even have been a Saddam. And a secular Palestinian government could've arose, and Jews could have peacefully migrated and set up a peaceful zionist community. Too bad the British & Americans got involved and funded terrorist organizations and dictators.

[klamath]

Why are so many of the American RP forum members interventionists? Why are you fighting the wars of the Palestinians and the Israelis? If Expatpaki and Eugenecop want to go at it, fine it is their wars.
I just want the fuck out of the middle east and want to quit supporting any side there. They have there own fucking hatreds that I want no part in.

[ExPatPaki]

? If Expatpaki and Eugenecop want to go at it, fine it is their wars.

It's not my war. I am an American resident and I pay taxes here. I don't want my tax money to go to either Israel, Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc.

This is a war forced upon me (and everyone else here) by our government because we pay taxes that support the continuation of this war.

[klamath]

It's not my war. I am an American resident and I pay taxes here. I don't want my tax money to go to either Israel, Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc.

This is a war forced upon me (and everyone else here) by our government because we pay taxes that support the continuation of this war.
Are YOU an American citizen?

[ExPatPaki]

Are YOU an American citizen?

No, I am a green card holder, I will be a citizen next year. I still pay taxes.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Pure socialist bunk!!!

LOL! Pot = Kettle = Black

All you have to do get your lazy fingers on that keyboard and search this forum for the facts. If not, then you can always Google it... but just go up on the US Department of State's and Department of Defense, and Commerce Department's FY budgets and you can see it all how the American taxpayer monies going out to the welfare state of Israel for yourself.

Sure you're not a ranting Democratic Socialist or ZioFascist? ...they're always the ones that yak and yak and yak... but never check or provide the true facts.

[virgil47]

LOL! Pot = Kettle = Black

All you have to do get your lazy fingers on that keyboard and search this forum for the facts. If not, then you can always Google it... but just go up on the US Department of State's and Department of Defense, and Commerce Department's FY budgets and you can see it all how the American taxpayer monies going out to the welfare state of Israel for yourself.

Sure you're not a ranting Democratic Socialist or ZioFascist? ...they're always the ones that yak and yak and yak... but never check or provide the true facts.

ROFL. Please don't try to include me in your socialist group. The U.S. provides assistance to many, many countries but when you single out Israel your bias clearly shows to any and all observers.