Any reports from OPT OUT DAY YET?

[Chester Copperpot]

JUST WONDERING...:o

[teacherone]

these guys are opting out!

TSA: Some gov't officials to skip airport security (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20101124/D9JM7I381.html)

show em who's boss boys! those are my reps in da hizzous!

[TonySutton]

I was listening to the radio this morning and while reading the news they said "Today is Opt Out day where people are checking out the TSA's new pat down procedures."

I thought it was an odd way to say it but at the same time it might cause some people to participate who would normally just walk through the scanner.

[Johnnybags]

gubmint jobs and a nudge to national id card. You wanna skip thru you will need a special card soon. Of course it is an option you will want for the privelage of not being groped or xrayed to death. Then afl-cio union rules and wages at airports,courthouses and all else federal. Its all because you value safety vs liberty and gubmint can always manufacture a threat here and ther to remind you how much you need to pay for yet more gubmint.

[speciallyblend]

our country is the joke of the world and universe!! Fight World Terrorism, change our us gov!

[smithtg]

alex jones has a nice one

speedo with "screw big sis" on it

http://www.infowars.com/screw-big-sis-man-strips-down-in-tsa-opt-out-protest

[Chester Copperpot]

alex jones has a nice one

speedo with "screw big sis" on it

http://www.infowars.com/screw-big-sis-man-strips-down-in-tsa-opt-out-protest

I think thats from yesterday

[cswake]

No crowds, protests at Hartsfield
http://www.ajc.com/business/no-crowds-protests-at-753064.html

[Chester Copperpot]

I just got this from a friend of a friend on facebook:



Philly airport is a ghost town for a normal day, let alone the biggest travel day of the year. No line at security and nobody touched me or questioned anything.

maybe nobodys flying?

[Chester Copperpot]

Just got this in from dailypaul




kenny [7:14 A.M.]: Brian [friend who works for TSA] called at 630 this morning... 15 people already opted out. He said that we're already causing trouble because the word is out... Lol

[paulitics]

It seems like most people are probably ignoring the scanners and are just going through the metal detectors like usual. In most places you probably still have a choice, although the TSA is trying to make us believe it is only naked body scanners, or groping. Of course, those who are totally oblivious to what is going on will go through the radiation devices and not think twice about it.

[Matt Collins]

Sunday is the busiest travel day, not today.

[Yieu]

Sunday is the busiest travel day, not today.

Then why have people been promoting today as if it were the busiest travel day?

[Bruno]

Sunday is the busiest travel day, not today.

I heard the other day during a History Channel segment on Thanksgiving myths that this weekend doesn't even make the top 25.

[UtahApocalypse]

Remember your NOODLES today if your traveling..... National Opt-Out Day, Lets Examine Security

[nate895]

alex jones has a nice one

speedo with "screw big sis" on it

http://www.infowars.com/screw-big-sis-man-strips-down-in-tsa-opt-out-protest

My stepdad was telling me about a guy who is developing something like a sports cup for guys and something for girls' bras with some sort of message on it for the TSA.

[libertyjam]

Most reports seem to indicate that so far, DFW TSA is not using the scanners at all today, only one report of a passenger getting a pat down - by an Agent in Training. Not even sure if it was an enhanced pat down. There are 8 scanners in C and D terminals.

[ChaosControl]

From what I hear it is a pathetically low number, which just goes to show the American people are as brainwashed as people in dictatorial nations, except Americans don't have isolationism and censorship as an excuse, they're just flat out that stupid.

[phx420]

ive always had to avoid flying the day before holidays due to the high ticket prices, i had to fly from ny to phx the day before last thanksgiving and i thought i was sure to miss my flight because the whole city was grid locked, but once i got there i remember zipping right through the airport thinking holiday travel days were a scam.

[ctiger2]

NPR's reporting smooth sailing across the nation. The sheeple love the nude scanners and porno pat-downs because "it's keeping us safe".

[tangent4ronpaul]

Woman and her daughter at the store earlier said they were driving to relatives. 5 1/2 hours one way...

and yeah, pics on the news make the airports look like ghost towns. some reports of passengers pushing, shoving TSA ppl and calling them perverts, etc.

-t

[TCE]

It's not people obeying, it's economics and strategy. Look at 538.com's latest articles. Every time an enhanced security measure is enacted, flying goes down. People are voting with their dollars and driving instead. Good. If the airlines keep losing money, they will rally against the TSA as well. I see nothing wrong with it.

[virgil47]

It's not people obeying, it's economics and strategy. Look at 538.com's latest articles. Every time an enhanced security measure is enacted, flying goes down. People are voting with their dollars and driving instead. Good. If the airlines keep losing money, they will rally against the TSA as well. I see nothing wrong with it.

If the airlines keep losing money the government will simply bail them out and assume ownership. Won't that be wonderful?

[TCE]

If the airlines keep losing money the government will simply bail them out and assume ownership. Won't that be wonderful?

So you're saying the airlines will wait until it gets to that point and won't complain ahead of that?

[Anti Federalist]

NOLA airport 0430 this morning,, D terminal, one porno scanner not being used, went through metal detector screening .

MSY, IAH, and BOS today, and if anything there were less people than a normal Wednesday.

I'm thinking people "opted out" by not going at all.

[Brian4Liberty]

gubmint jobs and a nudge to national id card. You wanna skip thru you will need a special card soon. Of course it is an option you will want for the privelage of not being groped or xrayed to death. Then afl-cio union rules and wages at airports,courthouses and all else federal. Its all because you value safety vs liberty and gubmint can always manufacture a threat here and ther to remind you how much you need to pay for yet more gubmint.

What ever happened to those "fast passes" for frequent travelers where they could bypass security?

Update:

Interesting. They are able to sell all of your personal and biometric data to anyone they want. And Morgan Stanley wants it.



http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/093009-defunct-airport-fast-pass-program-may.html?page=1

A new investment group based in California has signed a letter of intent with Morgan Stanley, the defunct company's largest debt holder, according to the New York Times . Under a proposed plan, the investment firm will be allowed to buy the assets of Verified Identity Pass Inc. (VIP)...
...
VIP was one of seven companies approved by the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) to operate a registered traveler program, which lets air travelers get through airport security checks faster. It offered the service at 21 major airports, including New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport, La Guardia, Boston's Logan International and Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson airports. More than 200,000 customers had signed up for the service when the company went out of business.

To sign up for VIP's Clear service, customers had to submit to background checks and provide identifying information, including Social Security and credit card numbers, home address, date and place of birth, phone numbers and driver's license number. They also had to provide fingerprints, iris scans and digital images of their faces.

VIP's decsion to shut the service raised concerns about the fate of the data that had been collected by the company. The company made matters worse by hinting that it would sell the data it had collected to fulfill its debt obligations.

Many participants were left feeling scammed when VIP announced that it couldn't refund their subscriptions because it had run out of money.

Days after the company's closure, the chairman of the House Committee on Homeland Security asked the TSA to ensure that all information collected by VIP was properly protected and destroyed . In August, a federal judge in New York issued an injunction prohibiting VIP from selling, transferring or disclosing to any third-party the data it collected while operating the Clear service. The motion was in response to a lawsuit brought by concerned customers. The injunction, however, was later lifted on a technicality.

Todd Schneider, an attorney with Schneider, Wallace, Cottrell, Brayton, Konecky LLP, a San Francisco law firm representing one of the parties in the lawsuit, today said he was unclear on the ramifications of the reported purchase of VIPs assets by the investment banking firm. For the moment, the purchase does little to alleviate the major complaint in the lawsuit, which is that VIP's customers didn't get a refund from their subscriptions.

[dannno]

It's not people obeying, it's economics and strategy. Look at 538.com's latest articles. Every time an enhanced security measure is enacted, flying goes down. People are voting with their dollars and driving instead. Good. If the airlines keep losing money, they will rally against the TSA as well. I see nothing wrong with it.

+1

The traffic coming THRU my town has been horrendous the last couple of days... Much more than normal, even for holiday pre-travel, and I live on a major highway artery that connects San Francisco/LA

[awake]

Do we have what Rothbard called "passive resignation"? The acceptance of what is, the new reality?

"the chief task of the rulers is always to secure the active or resigned acceptance of the majority of
the citizens."

[Brian4Liberty]

So you're saying the airlines will wait until it gets to that point and won't complain ahead of that?

Sure, many businesses don't do what is in their best interests. They will want a bailout from the government. Highly unlikely they will resist any form of security screening provided free of charge by the government.

[Lucille]

Record 92% of Travelers Choose to NOT Fly (http://wewontfly.com/record-92-of-travelers-choose-to-not-fly)


Correction: ABC reports it’s 94%: “We’re expecting 94 percent of all holiday travelers to go by automobile,” [Troy] Green [AAA national spokesperson] said, up 12 percent from last year.

The lousy economy might also have a lot to do with it.

[jmdrake]

It's not people obeying, it's economics and strategy. Look at 538.com's latest articles. Every time an enhanced security measure is enacted, flying goes down. People are voting with their dollars and driving instead. Good. If the airlines keep losing money, they will rally against the TSA as well. I see nothing wrong with it.

Exactly. The market is speaking. The people aren't being "sheeple" at all. Opting out = possibly getting groped. Who wants to be groped? It's easier just to drive the 12 hours to go see grandma. I had no plans to fly this weekend, but if I had a choice between "opting out" just so I could make a statement and simply not flying, I'd "opt" not to fly.

[GunnyFreedom]

do a twitter search for "backscatter" :D

[jmdrake]

If the airlines keep losing money the government will simply bail them out and assume ownership. Won't that be wonderful?

Yeah...people keep saying that. However I'm not buying it. (No pun intended). We're broker than ever and the GOP just took over the house and made big gains in the senate specifically on the promise of opposing things like bailouts. It would be politically easier for them to totally defund the TSA than it would be to bailout the airlines. The only thing that would change that is if another government patsy another undwear bomber sneaks on a plane.

[GunnyFreedom]

#optout (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23optout)

check it out. :)

[tangent4ronpaul]

#optout (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23optout)

check it out. :)


"#TSA Holiday Travel Message: Less than 3% of travelers will need a pat-down." 1.5mill * 3% = 45,000 people. #wontfly #optout

[GunnyFreedom]

"#TSA Holiday Travel Message: Less than 3% of travelers will need a pat-down." 1.5mill * 3% = 45,000 people. #wontfly #optout

I love how interspersed with private "Backscatter machines shut down, roped off" are 'official' news breaks "Opt Out day a fizzle, protesters don't bother" that's crazy Orwellian in appearance. I bet the iranelection tweeps are eyeballing this... a coming twitter awakening in the US? :D

[w2992]

Colorado Springs airport had the longest line ever. At least 2 hours long 100yds long.

[GunnyFreedom]

Colorado Springs airport had the longest line ever. At least 2 hours long 100yds long.

And it seems the ones they mostly keep open are less likely to generate a buzz...

[Kludge]

I'll never ever fly again after getting stuck in a DC connection terminal overcrowded with sweaty old lobbyists.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Airport scanners protest is working: IAH simply sending opt outs through standard metal detectors

With National Opt Out Day underway, many are awaiting news of how protesting travelers might affect airport traffic when opting out of the new Backscatter body scanners.

Some media outlets suggested that everyone who refused the full-body scanners would be directed to a TSA officer, who would have to pat them down — an intrusive process that takes considerably longer than the scanners do.

But reports from passengers going through Houston's IAH say that TSA officials there are simply putting passengers who opt out of the scanners through traditional metal detectors in the interest of efficiency, not subjecting everyone who says no to the scanners to an intense pat-down frisk.


http://culturemap.com/newsdetail/11-24-10-airport-scanners-protest-is-working-iah-simply-sending-opt-outs-through-standard-metal-dectators/

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Flyers Claim TSA Have Deactivated Body Scanners

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/11/flyers-claim-tsa-have-deactivated-body-scanners/

[speciallyblend]

And it seems the ones they mostly keep open are less likely to generate a buzz...

co springs is the home of Focus on the (Meth) Family;) aka right-wing neo-con nuts!!

[Golding]

I didn't fly. From what it sounds like, many people didn't fly. Whether that's a TSA thing or an economy thing, I'm not really sure. Probably both. All I know is I'm interviewing for a job, and it's requiring me to be all over the country for the upcoming months. I've been driving whenever it's feasible, but sometimes it's not. Haven't been pulled over to the backscatters, but I'll opt out if it ever comes up.

[Noob]

Record 92% of Travelers Choose to NOT Fly (http://wewontfly.com/record-92-of-travelers-choose-to-not-fly)



The lousy economy might also have a lot to do with it.

Just wait until TSA sets up check points were every body well have to get their car scan and every body in the car to prove they are not terrorists.

[Anti Federalist]

Flyers Claim TSA Have Deactivated Body Scanners

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/11/flyers-claim-tsa-have-deactivated-body-scanners/

Very possible, the porno scanner didn't appear to be on at NOLA this morning.

[tangent4ronpaul]

http://tinyurl.com/23oy8q3

[tangent4ronpaul]

http://www.latimes.com/travel/deals/la-trb-tsamonday-20101123,3,4841649.story

But not every Southern California flier reported a good trip through the checkpoint. Things went so badly at LAX for Wendy Ouriel, she said, that the Cal State Fullerton student missed her United Airlines flight back home to Rochester, N.Y., and lost her driver's license too.

It all began, Ouriel said, when she declined to go through the new body scanner Sunday night. Besides being worried about possible radiation, "I find it degrading," she said of the machines, which generate sometimes graphic images of bodies. She also said she was suspicious when the male TSA agent "seemed to be picking out young females" to go through the scanner rather than the metal detector.

Told she would have to undergo a pat-down, she declined that too after she said she saw an agent "grab" the crotch of a man being patted down ahead of her. Having declined both screenings, she was told she couldn't fly and was sent to baggage claim to collect her luggage. She says forgot to retrieve her driver's license, which the TSA had taken to file a report, and later couldn't find it.

Ouriel said she's now out $400 for her round-trip ticket. And as of Tuesday night, the only journey she was planning to make was to the DMV to get a new license.

[dannno]

:D


http://tinyurl.com/23oy8q3

WHY did you post that :confused:

[tangent4ronpaul]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/24/AR2010112407073.html

A day that dawned with fears of gridlock at the security gates to America's airports turned into something less than that as a protest against scanners and pat-downs fizzled dramatically Wednesday.

Protesters showed up in ones and twos, but not in the predicted battalions. They held up signs, passed out leaflets criticizing the government and delayed virtually nobody.

From New York to Los Angeles - in Atlanta, Kansas City, Mo., Phoenix, San Diego, St. Louis, Seattle and at all three major airports in the Washington region - hundreds of thousands of people launched their holiday travels without falling afoul of airport security or the clamorous minority angered by scanners that produce revealing images of the human body and pat-downs deemed too intimate.

One of the biggest holiday weekend travel delays on the East Coast happened not at the airports but on Interstate 95 in Delaware, where construction at a toll plaza renowned for backing up traffic on a regular basis did that so magnificently that the state finally threw up its hands and stopped collecting tolls.

But air passengers who had feared the worst rejoiced in swift lines, and security agents seemed determined to resurrect with good cheer an image trampled in the furor over the new scanners and "enhanced" frisking of those who failed or refused them.

"I have my food. I have my water. I expected to stand in line for hours," said Judith Gilbert of Arlington County. She arrived at Baltimore-Washington International Marshall Airport more than three hours early for a flight to Connecticut, only to find just a handful of people in front of her in a swiftly moving line.

At Dulles International Airport, Estelle Rogers, 62, of Northwest Washington was "shocked" by the tranquility.

"It looks less than a typical weekday," she said. "There were so many stories about how bad it was going to be."

Daniel Anderson, 28, of Alexandria was preparing to board a flight at Reagan National Airport with his wife and 20-month-old daughter, Alexa.

"We gotta get to Grandma's," he said as Alexa held an Elmo doll in the security line. "The choice is to have her microwaved or felt up, but we gotta get to Grandma's, so we'll do it."

At airports, the plan for 1960s-style civil disobedience faced challenges from the outset. The first was the price of admission. An airline ticket was required to reach the point in the security chain were one could "opt out" of the scanner and demand a pat-down.

Most people who flew Wednesday bought their tickets weeks or months ago, before the protest movement came to life. The few tickets to be had carried a high price tag. And those most infuriated by the Transportation Safety Administration's new policy probably opted out of flying entirely.

"Things are going smoothly," TSA spokesman Nicholas Kimball said in a statement.

The move to opt out started Nov. 8 when an Ashburn pharmaceutical executive, Brian J. Sodergren, launched a modest Web site that encouraged travelers to opt out of the scanning machines and accept a public pat-down so that people can "see for themselves how the TSA treats law-abiding citizens." The site went viral within hours.

Two Philadelphia area men piggybacked on the idea and, on the same day, created the slicker We Won't Fly Web site and a corresponding media campaign.

Organizers of the protest took the easy flow of airport travel as evidence that many passengers had simply stayed home.

"What else could it be?" said James Babb, an Eagleville, Pa., marketing executive who started the We Won't Fly campaign. "We've been hearing for weeks about how angry people are, and now things are running smoothly? I think people heeded the advice and stayed home."

Airport officials and the airlines said, however, that Wednesday was one of the busiest air travel days of the year, with 1.6 million people expected to fly.

"I think it's nonsense to say people aren't flying," said David Castelveter, a spokesman for the Air Transport Association, an airline industry group. "Despite what the promoters of the opt-out say, the American people have spoken and they are undeterred. People are flying."

The lone protester Wednesday afternoon at National was a 27-year-old college student, Brad Aefsky, who drew crowds of curious passengers near the airport's Cosi restaurant. Aefsky, wearing a canvas sign on his body that read "Tyrants Sexually Assaulting Americans" on the front and "Department of Herding Sheeple" on the back, said he was frustrated with what he thought were overly intrusive security methods.

"As soon as I heard about the scanners, I knew the anger was coming," said Aefsky, who described himself as a Libertarian. "I'm probably going to be put on some terrorist watch list now."

At BWI, Jonathan Shaeffer, tall, trim and meticulously dressed in a gray business suit, set out to challenge the government that until recently he defended.

His table, with a sign that said "Travel With Dignity," was set up in the main airport concourse. A neat array of material protesting new security measures by the TSA was spread out: a pamphlet Shaeffer wrote describing the agency's "manual groping of the genitals, breasts and buttocks" as part of the new pat-down; a petition in support of a congressional effort to curtail the TSA; copies of the Constitution; and a "complaint-compliment" form passengers could use to rate their TSA experience.

"We're calling the TSA's bluff on its policies," Shaeffer said, adding that he recently left the Navy after six years as a language expert. "This is a nonpartisan issue."

He said his protest at BWI on Wednesday began as a discussion among friends on Facebook.

He got a permit from the airport for his table and set up in a designated spot. He said he was encouraging people to decline when they were asked to go through the scanners.

Shaeffer said he was alarmed by a CBS poll two weeks ago that found that 81 percent of the public didn't object to the scanners. A Washington Post-ABC News poll released this week found that nearly two-thirds of Americans support the use of the machines.

"That's a real risk for our civil rights," he said. "It's baffling to me that only 20 percent of the people really care."

Gilbert, who passed through security a few hundred yards from Shaeffer's table, said she was one of the majority not bothered by the new security schemes.

"I went through the scanner two weeks ago, no problem," Gilbert said. "I believe we need to do the appropriate thing to keep the skies safe. If people have severe objections, they should take the train."

[libertybrewcity]

I flew this morning out of Reagan DCA. I was the only person in the security line and I even got there three hours early.. I was really mad, but my terminal didn't even have body scanners. The first terminal I walked past was fairly busy, and there were about three or four news people with cameras.

Definitely opting out on Sunday though.

[tangent4ronpaul]

:D



WHY did you post that :confused:

I interpreted it as the kid choosing not to be molested, ie: #wontfly. It seemed very appropriate to the boycott.

-t

[dannno]

I interpreted it as the kid choosing not to be molested, ie: #wontfly. It seemed very appropriate to the boycott.

-t

Huh... I interpreted it to be that an obsession with Pokemon prevents males from getting laid.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Huh... I interpreted it to be that an obsession with Pokemon prevents males from getting laid.

Well, try interpreting this... :D

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/98/l_258c362f2bd610f5cf10a7c91585598b.jpg

On the off chance you like it, the artist is Dominique Appia and it's available as a poster.

-t

[GunnyFreedom]

Well, try interpreting this... :D

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/98/l_258c362f2bd610f5cf10a7c91585598b.jpg

On the off chance you like it, the artist is Dominique Appia and it's available as a poster.

-t

This is going to sound weird, but I think the composition would be more balanced if the twins were the same girl instead of sisters.

[angelatc]

I love this! When I was younger, I hung a picture of the Leaning Tower of Pisa just like that. And I had a chia pet but mine was smaller.

[tangent4ronpaul]

This is going to sound weird, but I think the composition would be more balanced if the twins were the same girl instead of sisters.

What makes you think they aren't the same girl?

Note also the half "chia pet" head in the next room, which is the same as the photo on the mirror which is the same as the picture in the book. This may be meant to represent the girl(s?) or possibly a parent. Also, the clothes are transparent, so that it cloaks the body too and you see right through them to what is behind them which is different depending on pose. They are not dressed differently.

-t

[GunnyFreedom]

What makes you think they aren't the same girl?

Note also the half "chia pet" head in the next room, which is the same as the photo on the mirror which is the same as the picture in the book. This may be meant to represent the girl(s?) or possibly a parent. Also, the clothes are transparent, so that it cloaks the body too and you see right through them to what is behind them which is different depending on pose. They are not dressed differently.

-t

I know they are not dressed differently, but the standing girl has brown hair, the sitting girl has red. Just the sort of difference that may be found in identical twins. The red is dreaming of the places of imagination through her books, while the brown will be journaling those places she's going to actually visit in person. Each girl's missing half is found in the other. Balance the hair color and the yin and yang balance because they are no longer twins but the same girl. Without it there is a chasm...

[tangent4ronpaul]

I know they are not dressed differently, but the standing girl has brown hair, the sitting girl has red. Just the sort of difference that may be found in identical twins. The red is dreaming of the places of imagination through her books, while the brown will be journaling those places she's going to actually visit in person. Each girl's missing half is found in the other. Balance the hair color and the yin and yang balance because they are no longer twins but the same girl. Without it there is a chasm...

There are a lot of different versions of this painting on the net, some darker, some lighter. In the posted image, I agree there is a more significant difference. Consulting the actual poster the hair colors are closer - both a reddish brown, with the standing one's darker and the sitting ones lighter - the kind of change that might come from a change in seasons and sun bleaching. The standing girl also looks shorter/younger to me.

-t

[EvilEngineer]

I'm thinking people "opted out" by not going at all.

I'm thinking this is the case. The roads on the other hand are jammed packed. The smooth sailing at the airports isn't because of anything the TSA is doing to streamline screening during this holiday... it's just that there isn't anywhere near the volume at the airports.

http://www.dailypaul.com/files/images/tuma-11-10-1.jpg
image over at daily paul.

[ronpaulhawaii]

An IVAW member and friend is featured in this news segment

http://www.wtvr.com/videobeta/d13cfec2-0b3f-4d82-bfbe-897e12b63e36/News/National-Opt-Out-Day

And the story seems to still be growing...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/tsa-cave-scanners-thanksgiving-rush/


News reports on Thursday declared the National Opt-Out Day protest against TSA screening procedures a bust, noting short wait times at airport security screening and TSA reports that there wasn't any spike in passengers opting out of body scanners.

But reports from travelers and local news sources suggest that at some of the busiest airports in the US the TSA has backed down and resorted to using the old screening procedures -- metal detectors and less-intrusive pat-downs.

And anecdotal reports from airports across the country suggest lighter-than-expected passenger traffic, suggesting that some travelers may have decided to "opt out" of the screening procedures by not flying at all.

[Philhelm]

Just wait until TSA sets up check points were every body well have to get their car scan and every body in the car to prove they are not terrorists.

If it comes down to that, they WILL find weapons. :mad:

[Philhelm]

Well, try interpreting this... :D

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/98/l_258c362f2bd610f5cf10a7c91585598b.jpg

On the off chance you like it, the artist is Dominique Appia and it's available as a poster.

-t

Oh, come on! That one's easy. It's obviously a worldwide disaster caused by global warming.