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PeacePlan
11-23-2010, 06:31 PM
YouTube - CIA & Blackwater Infiltrated Ron Paul's 2008 Campaign (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4qwTS3vaVg)

jmhudak17
11-23-2010, 06:32 PM
Interesting but it is Russian Times...

Anti Federalist
11-23-2010, 06:37 PM
Back in the day, I would have been inclined to dismiss that.

Then again, back in the day, I thought Ross Perot was kook when he said he and his family were being threatened by government goons.

Baptist
11-23-2010, 06:37 PM
Interesting but it is Russian Times...

Russia Today (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=217676&highlight=russia+today). But if you watched them you would know that because they rock.

dannno
11-23-2010, 06:41 PM
Interesting but it is Russian Times...

Sorry I haven't seen the video, but could you refute the material they presented or is ad hominem attacks all you got?

RT has proven to be a more reliable source than CNN.

MRoCkEd
11-23-2010, 06:46 PM
YouTube - Aliens shot down California missile (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UAeSsvHhTg)

MozoVote
11-23-2010, 06:52 PM
Eh. How hard is it to infiltrate an "open source" campaign?

Jeremy
11-23-2010, 07:06 PM
Why does everyone call it Blackwater? Didn't they change their name years ago?

jmhudak17
11-23-2010, 07:07 PM
Sorry I haven't seen the video, but could you refute the material they presented or is ad hominem attacks all you got?

RT has proven to be a more reliable source than CNN.

Are you serious? Did you see the video posted earlier in this thread (that was in another thread before)? If it's not from a reputable source there's no reason to believe it.

dannno
11-23-2010, 07:08 PM
Why does everyone call it Blackwater? Didn't they change their name years ago?

Cause that's what it was called back then..

Now it is Xe

dannno
11-23-2010, 07:09 PM
Are you serious? Did you see the video posted earlier in this thread (that was in another thread before)? If it's not from a reputable source there's no reason to believe it.

Yes I'm serious. You haven't been here long enough, but RT is much more reliable than CNN. They have had Ron Paul, Adam Kokesh, Peter Schiff, Alex Jones and more all on getting into real issues.

I'm sorry, but even that woman talking about aliens is more credible than CNN talking about Afghanistan, Iraq or our healthcare system.

t0rnado
11-23-2010, 07:11 PM
Eh. How hard is it to infiltrate an "open source" campaign?

You have to remember that this is the government we're talking about. They aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. They are tools though.

jmhudak17
11-23-2010, 07:11 PM
CNN is more credible than the woman talking about aliens. Just because CNN disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't credible.

dannno
11-23-2010, 07:13 PM
CNN is more credible than the woman talking about aliens. Just because CNN disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't credible.

Are you saying that the woman talking about aliens IS RT?

I think you are confused... REALLY confused if you think CNN has any credibility what-so-ever.

dannno
11-23-2010, 07:15 PM
You want an issue RT got consistently right and CNN got completely wrong?

Georgia and South Ossetia.

I'm sorry, but CNN was in completely propaganda mode, repeated lies and deception CONSTANTLY while RT told us what was really going on.

live liberty
11-23-2010, 07:21 PM
CNN is more credible than the woman talking about aliens. Just because CNN disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't credible.
CNN is not credible. They are entertainment.

specsaregood
11-23-2010, 07:24 PM
Uhm, so he is complaining because some candidates hired private security since they weren't getting govt protection (secret service) and then twists that into infiltrated? Does Wayne Madsen have any credibility? Or is he just another fiction writer?

kkassam
11-23-2010, 08:04 PM
While the CIA has used journalists as officers and agents. They've actually only denied using journalists as officers, not agents. It doesn't seem like either Dina or Wayne are making this key distinction. An agent is basically like an asset.

TXcarlosTX
11-23-2010, 08:09 PM
Ron Paul stuff starts at 2:50

RonPaulCult
11-23-2010, 08:32 PM
Damnit guys - we need to find trustworthy people to be Ron Paul's security.

RonPaulCult
11-23-2010, 08:34 PM
You want an issue RT got consistently right and CNN got completely wrong?

Georgia and South Ossetia.

I'm sorry, but CNN was in completely propaganda mode, repeated lies and deception CONSTANTLY while RT told us what was really going on.

We're going a bit off-topic here - but you've got to be kidding me. RT was just as biased as CNN, they just had the opposite bias (apparently one you agree with).

PeacePlan
11-23-2010, 08:40 PM
We're going a bit off-topic here - but you've got to be kidding me. RT was just as biased as CNN, they just had the opposite bias (apparently one you agree with).

Everyone is biased to some degree and we all need to watch where we get any info.

Zap!
11-23-2010, 08:43 PM
Why does everyone call it Blackwater? Didn't they change their name years ago?

It sounds better? :D

wormyguy
11-23-2010, 09:03 PM
From what I've seen, Russia Today basically wears its socialist bias on its sleeve, but gives lots of time to other "alternative" viewpoints from a US POV, many of which coincide with the liberty movement.

Baptist
11-23-2010, 09:04 PM
CNN is propaganda like the rest. Watch this video please.

YouTube - CNN Fake Newscast Best Quality (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTWY14eyMFg)

amy31416
11-23-2010, 09:31 PM
I tried to look it up, and all I can find are Wayne Madsen/RT links...are there any other sources for this?

heavenlyboy34
11-23-2010, 09:33 PM
Sorry I haven't seen the video, but could you refute the material they presented or is ad hominem attacks all you got?

RT has proven to be a more reliable source than CNN.

I haven't paid attention to RT in a while (since I found out they get some funding from the Kremlin). If what you say is true, I'll check it out on occasion.

ClayTrainor
11-23-2010, 09:50 PM
We're going a bit off-topic here - but you've got to be kidding me. RT was just as biased as CNN, they just had the opposite bias (apparently one you agree with).

RT is owned by the Russian state, everyone here needs to remember that. While I like some of their reporting, I trust them about as much as I trust corporate msm.

specsaregood
11-23-2010, 10:01 PM
Damnit guys - we need to find trustworthy people to be Ron Paul's security.

quite a few people met Dr. Pauls security guy, Karl. Nothing but good words were spoken about him here. I seem to recall the term "ninja" being used.

Knightskye
11-23-2010, 10:02 PM
Why does everyone call it Blackwater? Didn't they change their name years ago?

Because no one heard about the name change. If you said "Xe," nobody would know who you were talking about.

dannno
11-24-2010, 11:58 AM
We're going a bit off-topic here - but you've got to be kidding me. RT was just as biased as CNN, they just had the opposite bias (apparently one you agree with).

No, I am NOT kidding you at all or in the very least. It has nothing to do with bias, it has everything to do with reporting the NEWS! Did you pay attention here when that was going on at all??

Georgia attacked South Ossetia, not just their military, they attacked their population, hit apartment buildings, etc... CNN did not report that. RT did. The people of South Ossetia had mandated several times that they are independent from Georgia and prefer to be under the wing of Russia and wanted their protection from imperialist/NATO/western puppet led Georgia. If you think anything I'm saying here is "bias", then do some actual research into this stuff.

Ok, then Russia attacks Georgia, they were defending South Ossetia. That's where the reporting began with CNN, but they didn't even mention it was self defense!! It isn't a matter of bias, it is a matter of NOT reporting the fucking news. They NEVER mentioned anything about Georgia attacking South Ossetia, and in fact used footage of Georgia attacking South Ossetia, the population centers, and saying that it was Russia attacking Georgia!! WTFsickle?! This goes WAAAAYY beyond bias into complete and total war propaganda. That is some of the biggest bullshit I've seen in my life, and you're saying RT was more bias than CNN?? You've gotta be kidding me..

acptulsa
11-24-2010, 12:10 PM
Why does everyone call it Blackwater? Didn't they change their name years ago?

Because we have trouble remembering which odd combination of random letters is their new name and which was that awful malt liquor that came out a few years ago.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 12:11 PM
No, I am NOT kidding you at all or in the very least. It has nothing to do with bias, it has everything to do with reporting the NEWS! Did you pay attention here when that was going on at all??

Georgia attacked South Ossetia, not just their military, they attacked their population, hit apartment buildings, etc... CNN did not report that. RT did. The people of South Ossetia had mandated several times that they are independent from Georgia and prefer to be under the wing of Russia and wanted their protection from imperialist/NATO/western puppet led Georgia. If you think anything I'm saying here is "bias", then do some actual research into this stuff.

Ok, then Russia attacks Georgia, they were defending South Ossetia. That's where the reporting began with CNN, but they didn't even mention it was self defense!! It isn't a matter of bias, it is a matter of NOT reporting the fucking news. They NEVER mentioned anything about Georgia attacking South Ossetia, and in fact used footage of Georgia attacking South Ossetia, the population centers, and saying that it was Russia attacking Georgia!! WTFsickle?! This goes WAAAAYY beyond bias into complete and total war propaganda. That is some of the biggest bullshit I've seen in my life, and you're saying RT was more bias than CNN?? You've gotta be kidding me..

You changed my words. I said that CNN were JUST AS biased - meaning equally biased as RT.

And yes, I was around for that and I did hear all of these arguments at the time. And as much as I agree that Georgia bombed its own people, I don't agree it's right for Russia to go in and bomb Georgia any more than I agree with the United States going in to Iraq because Iraq bombed Kuwait. Russia needs to mind its own business (just like the United States needs to mind its own business).

Alex Jones was all over the story as I recall, and he was blaming the entire thing on the United States. I never saw any proof that the United States ordered those attacks, as he was claiming at the time. I do recall the US foolishly condemning Russia and supporting George, again - it wasn't our place to do that either. And that why our media wasn't telling the whole truth either.

But that is a FAIR assessment of the story. What you were saying and certainly what RT was saying was COMPLETELY biased. How can you even say with a straight face that it wasn't when RT is STATE RUN media and the STATE was involved in the conflict? You think that those reporters were going to just call it as they see it - "fair and balanced"

And yet people here and throughout the liberty movement were using RT as the voice of "what was really happening" which is as ridiculous as using Fox News, and all of the embedded hawkish war correspondents to find out what's going on with the Iraq war when we first invaded.

With respect to you, try not to only listen to the side that is saying what you want. I watched RT, CNN and all other news sources during that conflict. I found kernels of truth from all sides, and many lies from all sides too.

Jordan
11-24-2010, 12:12 PM
Why does everyone call it Blackwater? Didn't they change their name years ago?

If your goal is to talk about them negatively, it might be best to refer to the name that has the most negative stigma attached.

Blackwater sounds worse than Xe.

Seriously though, RT is about the worst source in the world.

speciallyblend
11-24-2010, 12:13 PM
the republican party will not allow freedom or liberty under their us gov watch!! We are where we are today because of the republican party and obama!

specsaregood
11-24-2010, 12:21 PM
quite a few people met Dr. Pauls security guy, Karl. Nothing but good words were spoken about him here. I seem to recall the term "ninja" being used.

This was Dr. Pauls head security guy during the campaign.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Karl-Golovin/577175773
http://www.facebook.com/profile/pic.php?oid=AQBA3fHU75xHC8BP852IrfoxsbFtj_5MocypBL 52AkH4t-pUzn9zTWjtyz4Bm2PNsNs&size=normal&usedef=1
I dont recall anything ever coming up that he was blackwater related. I sorta doubt it too.

Elwar
11-24-2010, 12:22 PM
So Ron Paul hired a guy for security who happened to have worked for Blackwater...

That doesn't sound like infiltration.

dannno
11-24-2010, 12:41 PM
You changed my words. I said they CNN were JUST AS biased - meaning equally biased as CNN.

No, they weren't just as biased because RT reported the whole story, CNN failed to report the vast majority of what was actually happening...

Who cares which side you agree with, which side actually reported the facts? Which side completely ignored most of the activity that had gone on?

Even if you are right and it was wrong for Russia to step in and protect a neighbor and trading partner who essentially willingly had already become a part of Russia, which I don't agree with, why did CNN ignore the majority of what had happened and report only a small cross section?? The fact is, RT reported the entire incident and what happened, and to me just the fact that they reported the whole thing gives a lot of credence to their credibility on their supposed 'bias', which I will talk more about.....Now.




And yes, I was around for that and I did hear all of these arguments at the time. And as much as I don't agree that Georgia bombed its own people,


Georgia didn't bomb it's own people!! That's the whole point, you need to research this stuff.. They bombed South Ossetia, which had defected to Russia.. If I am being robbed, and I don't have a gun and my neighbor who does have a gun sees what is going on, since I have the right to defend myself I can transfer that right to my NEIGHBOR!! He can come over and help protect my property, if HE CHOOSES. That's what South Ossetia did, they chose to have Russia defend them, they'd already defected to Russia and so Russia was completely justified in defending them against the aggression of Georgia.

You have to get it out of your head that South Ossetia was part of Georgia, South Ossetia was part of RUSSIA... NATO didn't recognize it, but that is because it went directly against their interests. As far as Russia and South Ossetia were concerned, South Ossetia was part of Russia, so in their eyes they were defending their own people and there is nothing wrong with that.






I don't agree it's right for Russia to go in and bomb Georgia any more than I agree with the United States going in to Iraq because Iraq bombed Kuwait.

That is completely different, Kuwait is on the other side of the world.. not to mention Kuwait was slant drilling into Iraq and they told them to stop and they didn't. Iraq was protecting it's property.

But either way, picture Puerto Rico or someone who is our neighbor and is trading with us and there are no major countries between us and them.. we go to them and tell them that we will protect them militarily, but they have to pay some extra tariff or something. If they agree, then they essentially become like any other state in the union and we have every right to DEFEND them from outside forces, perhaps because they are a valuable trade partner and willingly reached an agreement to receive our protection..

It is our country's job, then, to secure their individual rights. If that isn't what we do, then we are wrong, our military actions potentially immoral. If we secure their individual rights and don't aggress against other countries, we can be morally justified in this action.




Russia needs to mind its own business (just like the United States needs to mind its own business).

No, South Ossetia IS their business, shouldn't people have the right to be sovereign and yet be apart of a bigger territory who is able to defend their property, if they choose?




Alex Jones was all over the story as I recall, and he was blaming the entire thing on the United States. I never saw any proof that the United States ordered those attacks, as he was claiming at the time. I do recall the US foolishly condemning Russia and supporting George, again - it wasn't our place to do that either. And that why our media wasn't telling the whole truth either.

You never saw the evidence that we had been running military drills with them in the weeks before the attack? They are our puppet empire (of the west/US/Israel). You don't think they would need permission to do this?? You think the major players didn't know that Georgia attacked South Ossetia?? Just because the American public didn't know doesn't mean the major players didn't know.. and if they did know, then they not only approved but more than likely he was told to do it. That's how puppet dictators work, logically. If you can provide another logical scenario, then by all means.. but until then as far as I am concerned that is the only logical scenario that exists.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 12:49 PM
Danno, I had edited my post. Go read the edited version. Before I can read your whole post - I mistyped. I know Georgia bombed its own people. Please read my edited version and sorry for my lack of typing skills.

I will read the rest of your post now.

amy31416
11-24-2010, 01:02 PM
Ohhhhh fuuuuuuuck...Josh is friends with Karl Golovin on Facebook too!

RPF's is infiltrated AT THE TOP by BLACKWATER AND THE C-I-FREAKIN'-A!

(And reptiles....and chihuahua-loving double agents.)

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 01:10 PM
Alex Jones was all over the story as I recall, and he was blaming the entire thing on the United States. I never saw any proof that the United States ordered those attacks, as he was claiming at the time. I do recall the US foolishly condemning Russia and supporting George, again - it wasn't our place to do that either. And that why our media wasn't telling the whole truth either.


I'm not sure how you jumped from RT to AJ, but your assessment of his coverage is false. He never said the U.S. ordered the attacks. He reported that Russia made the claim, that the U.S. press was lying over who instigated the attacks and covering up the attacks on ethnic Russian civilians by Georgian forces. He also posted claims from a book that Cheney was pushing for the U.S. to engage Russia militarily during the conflict. He did report that Israel had trained Georgian forces prior to the conflict. So did the U.S. for that matter.

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 01:16 PM
Here's the deal. If you want credible news on a particular country, you have to go to a news service not based in that country. The BBC has covered a lot of stories that the U.S. press has hushed up. And I doubt Russia Today gives good coverage about what happens in Russia. As for the "alien's babies' momma", I wish the interviewer had been at least a little skeptical, but that's still not as bad as the outright lies we get from our own media on issues. For instance I haven't seen RT show a black gun wielding protester from the next down (covering up his race) and using that as a lead in to a story about "race based protests against Obama".

Side note: It's interesting how none of the RT reporters have Russian accents.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 01:19 PM
I bet you anything that we debated this when it actually happened. I was in the minority in the liberty movement, to be sure. But for once I don't blame the US for a major international conflict. People here tend to jump the gun and assume everything is our fault. You claim it's the only logical conclusion, and I'm not ruling it out, but I've never seen any proof that we ordered the attack. Alex Jones just ASSUMED IT, and reported it that way immediately and without proof as he tends to do. And a lot of people followed him off the cliff on that one.

Russia had been building up its military at the border for some time before the conflict. That was to intimidate, provoke and show a force of power, not unlike the US sending war ships to the middle east to intimidate Iran.

Personally, I hold both "sides" of the conflict accountable - not just one or the other. The US blamed only Russia - and our media followed. Russia blamed only Georgia - and RT was VERY biased in its reporting. Be HONEST. RT was supporting Russia's side of the story and outright BLAMING Georgia 100% for what happened. A fair, honest examination of what was happening would have reported what the US media was saying AS WELL AS Russian media. That RT met your bias, and that you claim they were "just reported the truth" shows that my original comment was correct, you are letting your own bias get in the way of what good, unbiased reporting is all about.

Cdn_for_liberty
11-24-2010, 01:23 PM
RT stopped being credible when they had George4title on

:D

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 01:26 PM
I'm not sure how you jumped from RT to AJ, but your assessment of his coverage is false. He never said the U.S. ordered the attacks. He reported that Russia made the claim, that the U.S. press was lying over who instigated the attacks and covering up the attacks on ethnic Russian civilians by Georgian forces. He also posted claims from a book that Cheney was pushing for the U.S. to engage Russia militarily during the conflict. He did report that Israel had trained Georgian forces prior to the conflict. So did the U.S. for that matter.

He said time and time again that the US was behind the attacks. I can probably find 100 examples of him saying this. But I'm lazy so I will post the one that I found first after two seconds of searching:


The evidence to proof the USA’s hand behind the Georgian aggression against South Ossetia can be found in Western media.

From the article: "U.S. approves Georgia’s aggression against South Ossetia and Russia"


http://www.infowars.com/us-approves-georgia%E2%80%99s-aggression-against-south-ossetia-and-russia/

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 01:27 PM
I bet you anything that we debated this when it actually happened. I was in the minority in the liberty movement, to be sure. But for once I don't blame the US for a major international conflict. People here tend to jump the gun and assume everything is our fault. You claim it's the only logical conclusion, and I'm not ruling it out, but I've never seen any proof that we ordered the attack. Alex Jones just ASSUMED IT, and reported it that way immediately and without proof as he tends to do. And a lot of people followed him off the cliff on that one.


Link to where Alex Jones said the U.S. ordered the attack or give him an apology. I just read through every page on Infowars.com on the story and there's no place where he said what you claim he said. Instead he reported that Russia made the claim. Also there is no debating that the U.S. and Israel special forced trained the Georgian military. There is no debating the fact that Georgia started the attack. There is no debating that the U.S. CIA was actively involved in the unrest in Georgia leading to the "rose revolution". But that's not the same as saying an attack was "ordered". There is ample evidence that it was encouraged though.

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 01:29 PM
He said time and time again that the US was behind the attacks. I can probably find 100 examples of him saying this. But I'm lazy so I will post the one that I found first after two seconds of searching:



From the article: "U.S. approves Georgia’s aggression against South Ossetia and Russia"


http://www.infowars.com/us-approves-georgia%E2%80%99s-aggression-against-south-ossetia-and-russia/

Yep. The U.S. certainly approved of the attack. Do you debate that? :confused: And Israel has been encouraging us for some time to attack Iran. That doesn't mean Israel has ordered us to attack Iran.

By the way. It seems you were lazy in your linking. You linked to a Pravda story that AJ reposted on his website as opposed to anything he wrote himself. And he clearly gave Pravda the credit for the story.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 01:30 PM
Another quote from Prison Planet....more Alex Jones blaming the US for the conflict without any proof:


In reality, Georgia is being used as a proxy client state through which the U.S. and NATO are advancing their geopolitical motives – to the cost of Ossetian, Georgian and Russian civilians alike caught in the middle of the carnage.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 01:33 PM
Yep. The U.S. certainly approved of the attack. Do you debate that? :confused: And Israel has been encouraging us for some time to attack Iran. That doesn't mean Israel has ordered us to attack Iran.

By the way. It seems you were lazy in your linking. You linked to a Pravda story that AJ reposted on his website as opposed to anything he wrote himself. And he clearly gave Pravda the credit for the story.

Yes, I debate it. I debate it because I have seen no PROOF of it. It's an ASSUMPTION. Maybe a good one - a believable one. I will not rule it out. But you can't use ASSUMPTIONS when you are a journalist.

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 01:39 PM
Another quote from Prison Planet....more Alex Jones blaming the US for the conflict without any proof:

U.S. special forces trained the Georgian military. It's not just Alex Jones saying that.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200809--2.htm

There is plenty of evidence for what Alex Jones actually said. You're just building straw men to try to stretch what he said to something he didn't say. He never say America ordered the attack. Saying the Taliban has served as a proxy for the Pakistani ISI isn't the same as saying the Pakistani ISI has ordered their every move.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 01:39 PM
Link to where Alex Jones said the U.S. ordered the attack or give him an apology. I just read through every page on Infowars.com on the story and there's no place where he said what you claim he said. Instead he reported that Russia made the claim. Also there is no debating that the U.S. and Israel special forced trained the Georgian military. There is no debating the fact that Georgia started the attack. There is no debating that the U.S. CIA was actively involved in the unrest in Georgia leading to the "rose revolution". But that's not the same as saying an attack was "ordered". There is ample evidence that it was encouraged though.

It's not hard to find links. This is the first video I found of Alex Jones talking about it. In the first minute of this interview he says the US launched the attack. Not Georgia, not NATO, but the United States.

YouTube - Alex Jones' FULL INTERVIEW with Russia Today News (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDIKMV_Znb0)

I think you owe ME an apology.

He says many times that the United States LAUNCHED these attacks.

Peace&Freedom
11-24-2010, 01:40 PM
I bet you anything that we debated this when it actually happened. I was in the minority in the liberty movement, to be sure. But for once I don't blame the US for a major international conflict. People here tend to jump the gun and assume everything is our fault. You claim it's the only logical conclusion, and I'm not ruling it out, but I've never seen any proof that we ordered the attack. Alex Jones just ASSUMED IT, and reported it that way immediately and without proof as he tends to do. And a lot of people followed him off the cliff on that one.

Actually, Jones sourced Reuters, MS-NBC, Paul Craig Roberts, and Israeli press reports to shape his view that it was a US approved (trained/equipped) operation, as shown in the PP article published a day after the event happened. Some people attack Jones (without proof) and ASSUME reporting without sourcing is something "he tends to do."

http://www.prisonplanet.com/us-attacks-russia-through-client-state-georgia.html

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 01:42 PM
U.S. special forces trained the Georgian military. It's not just Alex Jones saying that.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200809--2.htm

There is plenty of evidence for what Alex Jones actually said. You're just building straw men to try to stretch what he said to something he didn't say. He never say America ordered the attack. Saying the Taliban has served as a proxy for the Pakistani ISI isn't the same as saying the Pakistani ISI has ordered their every move.

I completely agree that the US has trained the troops. What I haven't seen is proof that our government called up Georgia and said "GO - DO THIS"

Such proof does not exist. Or if it does, I ask you to SHOW IT TO ME! Alex Jones just SAYING it does not count as proof.

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 01:42 PM
Yes, I debate it. I debate it because I have seen no PROOF of it. It's an ASSUMPTION. Maybe a good one - a believable one. I will not rule it out. But you can't use ASSUMPTIONS when you are a journalist.

It's not an ASSUMPTION. It's a fact. There was no condemnation by our government for the Georgian aggression and instead a lot of condemnation against Russia for what turned out to be an act of self defense. There are only two logical explanations for that. 1 is tacit approval for what Georgia did. 2 is just rank stupidity. These people aren't stupid. They just think you are.

Fredom101
11-24-2010, 01:44 PM
Maybe this can finally explain the infamous "He's catchin on, I'm tellin ya!" ad that torpedoed NH and essentially the campaign? Blackwater did it!

In case anyone forgot just how craptastic it was:

YouTube - Ron Paul TV Ad: #1 for New Hampshire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30yxHqSUva8)

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 01:44 PM
I completely agree that the US has trained the troops. What I haven't seen is proof that our government called up Georgia and said "GO - DO THIS"

Such proof does not exist. Or if it does, I ask you to SHOW IT TO ME! Alex Jones just SAYING it does not count as proof.

:rolleyes: You've never provided a shred of evidence that Alex Jones said the U.S. government said "go do this". Enough with the straw men already.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 01:45 PM
Actually, Jones sourced Reuters, MS-NBC, Paul Craig Roberts, and Israeli press reports to shape his view that it was a US approved (trained/equipped) operation, as shown in the PP article published a day after the event happened. Some people attack Jones (without proof) and ASSUME reporting without sourcing is something "he tends to do."

http://www.prisonplanet.com/us-attacks-russia-through-client-state-georgia.html

I see no proof from his sources that the United States ordered the attack.

If anything, it shows Israel did. Again, I'm not saying that the US had nothing to do with it. They may very well have ordered the attacks. I'm just saying we have NO PROOF of it, including this article.

All this article points to is a "close relationship" between their army and ours (duh) and past US involvement in their country (another topic).

Still no proof of the US ordering the attacks.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 01:47 PM
:rolleyes: you've never provided a shred of evidence that alex jones said the u.s. Government said "go do this". enough with the straw men already.

go to post #51 and watch the video. It is the voice of alex jones clearly saying the us launched the attack. What more do you want?!?!?!?!?!

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 01:50 PM
It's not an ASSUMPTION. It's a fact. There was no condemnation by our government for the Georgian aggression and instead a lot of condemnation against Russia for what turned out to be an act of self defense. There are only two logical explanations for that. 1 is tacit approval for what Georgia did. 2 is just rank stupidity. These people aren't stupid. They just think you are.

A lack of condemnation is quite different than responsibility. That the US backed its ally Georgia is not a surprise (also not something I agreed with - but it's a different issue).

Alex Jones wasn't just angry that the US was on Georgia's side - he was claiming that the US CAUSED THE ENTIRE THING. He did this without proof. And you're unable to show me proof too.

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 01:55 PM
A lack of condemnation is quite different than responsibility. That the US backed its ally Georgia is not a surprise (also not something I agreed with - but it's a different issue).


:rolleyes: I asked if you debated if the U.S. approved the attack not if you debated if the U.S. was responsible for the attack. Do you know the difference between approving something and being responsible for it?



Alex Jones wasn't just angry that the US was on Georgia's side - he was claiming that the US CAUSED THE ENTIRE THING. He did this without proof. And you're unable to show me proof too.

Special forces training of the U.S. military was part of what gave the cowardly Georgian president the "courage" to launch the attack.

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 01:58 PM
It's not hard to find links. This is the first video I found of Alex Jones talking about it. In the first minute of this interview he says the US launched the attack. Not Georgia, not NATO, but the United States.

YouTube - Alex Jones' FULL INTERVIEW with Russia Today News (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDIKMV_Znb0)

I think you owe ME an apology.

He says many times that the United States LAUNCHED these attacks.

He said many times the U.S., Israel and NATO backed Georgians attacked Russia. And that's no different than when people point out that the Iranian backed Hezbollah attacks Israel. You can't debate that Georgia received training and backing from the U.S., Israel and NATO. You can't debate that the U.S. government lied initially about who started the attack. So you want to quibble over something that Alex Jones never actually said. In the norse mythology Loki armed a blind god and pointed him in the direction of Baldur. But Loki didn't actually order the god to throw the spear. Same thing here.

Peace&Freedom
11-24-2010, 01:58 PM
I see no proof from his sources that the United States ordered the attack.

If anything, it shows Israel did. Again, I'm not saying that the US had nothing to do with it. They may very well have ordered the attacks. I'm just saying we have NO PROOF of it, including this article.

All this article points to is a "close relationship" between their army and ours (duh) and past US involvement in their country (another topic).

Still no proof of the US ordering the attacks.

Ah, your misdirecting point has shifted from "Alex had no sourcing" (about which you were factually flat wrong) to "Alex did not source the specific phrase "ordered." When it comes to the US influence over its client states, it hardly has to order, but more often just nods as its wind up client state doll does it's thing. When you aid and abet a gangster, it's not too surprising when the gangster later acts like one. The SALIENT point, the one Jones was focused on, was the US was complicit in the attacks on South Ossetia. The US and Israel put that ruler in power, trained and equipped it, and went in lockstep with Georgia's version from the first outbreak of hostilities.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 02:01 PM
Special forces training of the U.S. military was part of what gave the cowardly Georgian president the "courage" to launch the attack.


So now we didn't order it, we just gave them courage?

I'm ready for my apology from you now. Alex Jones claimed the US launched the attacks. You asked for proof - I provided it.

Apology time?

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 02:04 PM
So now we didn't order it, we just gave them courage?

I'm ready for my apology from you now. Alex Jones claimed the US launched the attacks. You asked for proof - I provided it.

Apology time?

You provided proof that you can't put 2 and 2 together and you're good at building straw men. You have provided proof that Alex Jones said the U.S. backed Georgians snuck attacked Russia. I wasn't debating that. Nice try though.

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 02:06 PM
Ah, your misdirecting point has shifted from "Alex had no sourcing" (about which you were factually flat wrong) to "Alex did not source the specific phrase "ordered." When it comes to the US influence over its client states, it hardly has to order, but more often just nods as its wind up client state doll does it's thing. When you aid and abet a gangster, it's not too surprising when the gangster later acts like one. The SALIENT point, the one Jones was focused on, was the US was complicit in the attacks on South Ossetia. The US and Israel put that ruler in power, trained and equipped it, and went in lockstep with Georgia's version from the first outbreak of hostilities.

^This

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 02:06 PM
Ah, your misdirecting point has shifted from "Alex had no sourcing" (about which you were factually flat wrong) to "Alex did not source the specific phrase "ordered." When it comes to the US influence over its client states, it hardly has to order, but more often just nods as its wind up client state doll does it's thing. When you aid and abet a gangster, it's not too surprising when the gangster later acts like one. The SALIENT point, the one Jones was focused on, was the US was complicit in the attacks on South Ossetia. The US and Israel put that ruler in power, trained and equipped it, and went in lockstep with Georgia's version from the first outbreak of hostilities.

I never said Alex Jones uses no sourcing in his articles. I only said he provided no proof (sources if you wish) for the claim that the US directly ordered (or launched - his word) the attacks. I stand by that comment, and urge you to prove me wrong.

I agree with the rest of your assessment that US influence is far too great in this region.

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 02:13 PM
I never said Alex Jones uses no sourcing in his articles. I only said he provided no proof (sources if you wish) for the claim that the US directly ordered (or launched - his word) the attacks. I stand by that comment, and urge you to prove me wrong.

I agree with the rest of your assessment that US influence is far too great in this region.

I wasted 6:06 minutes of my life listening for Alex Jones to say the words "The U.S. ordered Georgia to attack". Sorry but it's not there. Nothing close to that is in the video you posted. Not only do you owe Alex Jones an apology, but you owe me an apology for wasting my time.

FSP-Rebel
11-24-2010, 02:17 PM
This thread deserves to be boycotted.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 02:19 PM
You asked for proof that Alex Jones claimed the US launched the attack:


Link to where Alex Jones said the U.S. ordered the attack or give him an apology.

Now you say this?


You have provided proof that Alex Jones said the U.S. backed Georgians snuck attacked Russia. I wasn't debating that. Nice try though.

Not just backed - LAUNCHED. He claimed the United States LAUNCHED the attacks. And you claimed he didn't, and you asked for a link. I provided you with one. You should correct your previous statements. Such as:



He never said the U.S. ordered the attacks.


You're just building straw men to try to stretch what he said to something he didn't say. He never say America ordered the attack

Once again, because you're slow and you are probably going to use the term "straw man" for ANYTHING I say....here is THE VIDEO OF ALEX JONES CLAIMING THE US LAUNCHED THE ATTACK. Launched is another way of saying that they ordered the attacks. You are wrong. I am right. The proof is in the video. Stop arguing with me and admit you were wrong!

YouTube - Alex Jones' FULL INTERVIEW with Russia Today News (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDIKMV_Znb0)

devil21
11-24-2010, 02:20 PM
I don't think the issue here is simply that a Blackwater connected security guy was involved in the campaign, but rather that someone that would quickly take whatever orders he was given (such as assassinating RP) was able to get that close to RP and other candidates. Needless to say, no Blackwater security or other government connected security should be around the campaign in 2012.

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 02:23 PM
You asked for proof that Alex Jones claimed the US launched the attack:


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You change positions more than John "I was for the war before I was against it" Kerry. Which is it? That Alex Jones said the U.S. ordered the attack or "launched" the attack?

Anyway, Peace&Freedom already explained it to you. So did I. Alex's point is that the U.S. armed, trained, "wound up" the Georgians and pointed them in Russia's direction, then hid their hands and, acted "shocked" at the results and tried to blame them all on Russia. No where did he say the U.S. "ordered" the attack as you earlier claimed. Yep. You owe me an apology.

And just in case you want to hide from your earlier words, here they are again.

I never saw any proof that the United States ordered those attacks, as he was claiming at the time.

You've never offered any proof that Alex Jones said the U.S. ordered those attacks. None whatsoever.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 02:31 PM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You change positions more than John "I was for the war before I was against it" Kerry. Which is it? That Alex Jones said the U.S. ordered the attack or "launched" the attack?

Anyway, Peace&Freedom already explained it to you. So did I. Alex's point is that the U.S. armed, trained, "wound up" the Georgians and pointed them in Russia's direction, then hid their hands and, acted "shocked" at the results and tried to blame them all on Russia. No where did he say the U.S. "ordered" the attack as you earlier claimed. Yep. You owe me an apology.

And just in case you want to hide from your earlier words, here they are again.

I never saw any proof that the United States ordered those attacks, as he was claiming at the time.

You've never offered any proof that Alex Jones said the U.S. ordered those attacks. None whatsoever.

Haha - you so want to be right that you will resort to playing silly semantics game. Is there really any difference between "ordering attacks" and "launching attacks?"

You are extremely annoying to debate with so let's both do RonPaulForums a favor and end this little discussion.

txaslftist
11-24-2010, 03:04 PM
sounds like the source was Wayne Madsen

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 05:28 PM
Haha - you so want to be right that you will resort to playing silly semantics game. Is there really any difference between "ordering attacks" and "launching attacks?"

You are extremely annoying to debate with so let's both do RonPaulForums a favor and end this little discussion.

No. I'm not playing "sematic games" at all. And yes there is a difference between ordering an attack and launching one. Peace&Freedom already explained it to you. So did I. You agreed with Peace&Freedom, but now you can't admit the facts. Someone can "wink" and "nod" at an underling to get them to do something without "ordering" it per se.

Also in law there is something known as a "constructive agreement". It's like this. When the government tries to prove a conspiracy charge it's supposed to prove an agreement between two or more people to do an act. Sometimes it doesn't have the evidence to prove the agreement itself. So the agreement is implied by the acts. Case in point is Zacharias Moussoui. There was never any proof of an "order" from Osama Bin Laden to Moussoui to engage in hijacking. The government implied the agreement from actions and statements before, during and after the attacks.

In this case we have evidence of an illicit relationship between the U.S. and Georgia before the attacks (CIA and special forces training of Georgian troops), actions taken during the attack (VP Dick Cheney advocating the U.S. engage Russia militarily and the U.S. government lying about who started the conflict) as well as after the attack ( the U.S. government continuing to lie and then cover up who initiated the attacks). That may not be enough evidence to prove to you that the U.S. was behind the attacks, but the evidence is strong enough to be admissible in a court of law to prove conspiracy. A jury would have to decide if it was enough for a conviction. I'm sure the government would love to have you on such a jury because there are probably no circumstances short of an email from Bush to the president of Georgia explicitly saying "Go get em boys".

Anyway, I asked you for specific evidence, you failed to provide it. You're doing exactly what you are accusing Alex Jones of doing which is playing fast and loose with the facts.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 06:31 PM
No. I'm not playing "sematic games" at all. And yes there is a difference between ordering an attack and launching one. Peace&Freedom already explained it to you. So did I. You agreed with Peace&Freedom, but now you can't admit the facts. Someone can "wink" and "nod" at an underling to get them to do something without "ordering" it per se.

Also in law there is something known as a "constructive agreement". It's like this. When the government tries to prove a conspiracy charge it's supposed to prove an agreement between two or more people to do an act. Sometimes it doesn't have the evidence to prove the agreement itself. So the agreement is implied by the acts. Case in point is Zacharias Moussoui. There was never any proof of an "order" from Osama Bin Laden to Moussoui to engage in hijacking. The government implied the agreement from actions and statements before, during and after the attacks.

In this case we have evidence of an illicit relationship between the U.S. and Georgia before the attacks (CIA and special forces training of Georgian troops), actions taken during the attack (VP Dick Cheney advocating the U.S. engage Russia militarily and the U.S. government lying about who started the conflict) as well as after the attack ( the U.S. government continuing to lie and then cover up who initiated the attacks). That may not be enough evidence to prove to you that the U.S. was behind the attacks, but the evidence is strong enough to be admissible in a court of law to prove conspiracy. A jury would have to decide if it was enough for a conviction. I'm sure the government would love to have you on such a jury because there are probably no circumstances short of an email from Bush to the president of Georgia explicitly saying "Go get em boys".

Anyway, I asked you for specific evidence, you failed to provide it. You're doing exactly what you are accusing Alex Jones of doing which is playing fast and loose with the facts.

Dude, stop wasting your time. I am completely ignoring you. Give it up. There is no arguing with you. I stand by my statements and I think I have given clear enough evidence of who Alex Jones blamed for the attacks (The United States and not Georgia and not Russia). You are free to think whatever you want. Just as some friendly advice, I'm suggesting that we both end this flame war because it's wasting valuable space on this forum. Have a great Thanksgiving.

jmdrake
11-24-2010, 06:50 PM
Dude, stop wasting your time. I am completely ignoring you. Give it up. There is no arguing with you. I stand by my statements and I think I have given clear enough evidence of who Alex Jones blamed for the attacks (The United States and not Georgia and not Russia). You are free to think whatever you want. Just as some friendly advice, I'm suggesting that we both end this flame war because it's wasting valuable space on this forum. Have a great Thanksgiving.

LOL. It's not a "flame war". I haven't called you any names. As for "wasting time" you are free not to respond. The fact is that you haven't produced the evidence you think you produced and that's probably because you don't understand how actual conspiracy prosecutions work. Over the holiday please go to a local law library, borrow any book on criminal law and look up "conspiracy" and "constructive agreement". You don't even have to come back and admit to me that I was right. ;) I just want you to educate yourself.