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RonPaulCult
11-23-2010, 04:12 PM
Any truth to this? If this is true, Ron Paul could REALLY use this to his advantage in winning over more Republicans.

nate895
11-23-2010, 04:14 PM
He sponsored similar legislation before 9/11 if I remember correctly.

RonPaulCult
11-23-2010, 04:14 PM
I guess Beck was referring to this.

http://killfile.newsvine.com/_news/2008/08/25/1783040-in-1995-joe-biden-basically-wrote-the-patriot-act-

The real author was Viet D. Dinh, according to wiki.

Beck loves to spin stuff.

RonPaulCult
11-23-2010, 04:14 PM
He sponsored similar legislation before 9/11 if I remember correctly.

You are correct. It was after the Oklahoma City bombing.

Kotin
11-23-2010, 04:14 PM
He sponsored similar legislation before 9/11 if I remember correctly.

Right.. He was pushing this type of legislation in the 90's.. Wrote several near-identical bills..

nate895
11-23-2010, 04:16 PM
I guess Beck was referring to this.

http://killfile.newsvine.com/_news/2008/08/25/1783040-in-1995-joe-biden-basically-wrote-the-patriot-act-

The real author was Viet D. Dinh, according to wiki.

Beck loves to spin stuff.

If someone else used Joe Biden's work to write essentially the same law, then isn't it really Biden's idea in the end? I don't think that's "spin."

RonPaulCult
11-23-2010, 04:17 PM
If someone else used Joe Biden's work to write essentially the same law, then isn't it really Biden's idea in the end? I don't think that's "spin."

Unless you tell the whole truth, as you just did, I consider it spin.

cswake
11-23-2010, 04:17 PM
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/59132

nate895
11-23-2010, 04:21 PM
Unless you tell the whole truth, as you just did, I consider it spin.

Then everything you read, hear, and say is spin. It is impossible to tell the whole truth on any manner, even concerning yourself. There is always the possibility for unknown facts. As long as the information is substantially true enough, then it isn't wrong to say it. Furthermore, does this new information change Beck's point? Does it improve the stature of Joe Biden in any way? If the excluded information has no bearing on the argument in any event, then there isn't anything unethical about not disseminating the absolute whole truth.

Bern
11-23-2010, 04:44 PM
...
The real author was Viet D. Dinh, according to wiki.


also here:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5325.htm

jmdrake
11-23-2010, 04:48 PM
Unless you tell the whole truth, as you just did, I consider it spin.

No spin this time. Biden himself claims authorship of the Patriot Act by proxy.

Biden himself draws parallels between his 1995 bill and its 2001 cousin. "I drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing. And the bill John Ashcroft sent up was my bill," he said when the Patriot Act was being debated, according to the New Republic, which described him as "the Democratic Party's de facto spokesman on the war against terrorism."

Anti Federalist
11-23-2010, 04:49 PM
Yah, and it was the GOP putting on show of "opposing" it.

In the march toward tyranny, the left boot takes a step, then the right boot takes a step...

Back in the late 90s, John Ashcroft was one of the most "outspoken" opponents of government's efforts (Clipper Chip) to reign in encryption technology so us mundanes wouldn't have a way to communicate with each without government being able to listen in.

Once the GOP was firmly in place and after 9/11, of course, he was all in favor of government snooping on everything we do.

Opponents of his book reading list keeping were called, guess what, "hysterical".

We're always "hysterical" and "over reacting" when our rights are being taken from us.

RonPaulCult
11-23-2010, 04:56 PM
No spin this time. Biden himself claims authorship of the Patriot Act by proxy.

Biden himself draws parallels between his 1995 bill and its 2001 cousin. "I drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing. And the bill John Ashcroft sent up was my bill," he said when the Patriot Act was being debated, according to the New Republic, which described him as "the Democratic Party's de facto spokesman on the war against terrorism."

I take what I said back. Sorry guys - I look for any reason not to trust Beck.

FrankRep
11-23-2010, 05:04 PM
Beck loves to spin stuff.

S.390: Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d104:s.00390:)
Sponsor: Sen Biden, Joseph R., Jr. [DE]


Glenn Beck is right. Here's the bill.

Bruno
11-23-2010, 05:06 PM
No spin this time. Biden himself claims authorship of the Patriot Act by proxy.

Biden himself draws parallels between his 1995 bill and its 2001 cousin. "I drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing. And the bill John Ashcroft sent up was my bill," he said when the Patriot Act was being debated, according to the New Republic, which described him as "the Democratic Party's de facto spokesman on the war against terrorism."

I remember that as well. And the country wasn't ready for it, it wasn't a big enough crisis, so they put it back on the shelf, to be dusted off after 9/11.

sailingaway
11-23-2010, 05:06 PM
He sponsored virtually the same bill but before 9/11 people REALIZED it went too far. But it was on the shelf when 9/11 happened and could be implemented immediately.

Imperial
11-23-2010, 06:24 PM
Then everything you read, hear, and say is spin. It is impossible to tell the whole truth on any manner, even concerning yourself. There is always the possibility for unknown facts.

Bingo! Everything you say or write, even here on ronpaulforums, is a "spin", or more accurately your framing, of reality. Objectivity is impossible in a world where you cannot be omniscient. That is why the Austrian critique of economics is so powerful- it acknowledges the inability to know all.

mrsat_98
11-23-2010, 07:26 PM
Beck just said that Joe Biden wrote the Patriot Act

Any truth to this? If this is true, Ron Paul could REALLY use this to his advantage in winning over more Republicans.


S.390: Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d104:s.00390:)
Sponsor: Sen Biden, Joseph R., Jr. [DE]


Glenn Beck is right. Here's the bill.

And all this time I didn't think Joe Biden could write his momma.

HOLLYWOOD
11-23-2010, 07:30 PM
Ashcroft is a POS... so are Alberto Gonzalez, Michael Mukasey... it shows they are ALL THE SAME. But ex DHS fuhrer, Michael Chertoff is the MotherFucken Devil that has done the most damage.

Here's a bit from CPAC 2010:

“There’s nothing honorable about taking away peoples’ rights,” shouted a woman in the crowd. Ashcroft responded that his time was up and he thought that woman’s was, too.
President George W. Bush’s first Attorney General received a standing ovation for his speech, but at other points, Ashcroft was jeered. One crowd member called him a fascist.
Today, Ashcroft told The Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/19/ashcroft-when-you-have-a_n_469384.html) that it was right to Mirandize suspected terrorists arrested on American soil. “When you have a person in the criminal justice system, you Mirandize them,” Ashcroft said.
His defense of the criminal justice system went against the current line of attack by President Bush’s last Attorney General, Michael Mukasey, who has been critical of Attorney General Eric Holder’s decision to put the alleged Christmas Day airplane bomber in the civilian justice system rather than in military custody.
During his speech, Ashcroft said, “We have the duty, from time to time, to respond [to terrorists] with the mechanisms and capacities of war rather than put our heads in the sand and think that we’re not at war or fail to consider whether we’re at war because we’re so in love with the vocabulary of the civil-justice system.”
He also said that a “range of opportunities” need to be available to deal with terrorists. He did not rule out the use of civilian courts – which the DOJ under Ashcroft and other Bush administration leaders used frequently to prosecute (http://www.mainjustice.com/2010/02/09/bush-administration-counted-300-terrorism-convictions-first/) alleged terrorists and terrorism-related offenses.


Ashcroft was presented with the “Defender of the ConstitutionAward” in the afternoon. The introduction from radio host Scott Hennen was a bit incongruous, given Ashcroft’s position on those arrested on American soil. “Sadly, elections have consequences, and now we have Eric Holder and Mirandizing terrorists,” he said.
[/URL]http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney01222005.html (http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney01222005.html)

Weekend Edition
January 22 / 24, 2005
Failing Upwards

The Rise of Michael Chertoff

By MIKE WHITNEY
Michael Chertoff's record at the Justice Dept. has followed the same downward arc as a belly-flop. He's managed to botch every major case he's handled and elicit the well-deserved scorn of civil liberties groups. Only in the gravity-defying world of G.W. Bush, where reality is routinely run through a public relations shredder, would a bungler like Chertoff reach the top-spot at Homeland Security. Even so, his appointment should come as no surprise to the wary American public. It's just one more horse-nugget added to an already ample mound of political manure.


Chertoff is credited with authoring the Patriot Act, the 300-plus page blueprint for the modern National Security State; patterned to great extent on the successes of the KGB in the Soviet system.

He's admired among his Bush cadres for making sure that government surveillance operates at maximum efficiency. Under his stewardship at the Dept of Justice, the 4th amendment has withered like summer grass. The long-held belief that citizens, have a right to a "reasonable expectation of privacy" has buckled under the demands of "Big Brother" and the new "intrusive" security paradigm... See link for complete article




[URL]http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/01/mike_chertoffs_.html (http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/01/mike_chertoffs_.html)
January 12, 2005
MIKE CHERTOFF'S DIRTY LITTLE SECRETS: BUSH'S NEW HOMELAND SECURITY CZAR
Anyone referred to this blog by David Icke's website should click here (http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/01/a_warning_about.html) before reading further.
I wrote the following for this week's L.A. Weekly (http://www.laweekly.com/ink/05/08/news-ireland.php):
The Bush White House thinks they’re being clever by naming a prosecutor instead of a criminal to head the Department of Homeland Security: Mike Chertoff, whose appointment as DHS czar in the wake of the failed nomination of scandal-plagued Bernie Kerik (now under investigation by multiple law-enforcement agencies) was announced as the Weekly went to press. But Chertoff is as political an appointment as one can imagine--especially for those who know the arcana of politics in New Jersey, where Chertoff was U.S. Attorney, and where his naming to the DHS job caused jaws to drop.

Chertoff was a political attack dog in that job, indicting and convicting a raft of Democratic officeholders. But one who Chertoff deliberately let get away was his big buddy, Bob “The Torch” Torricelli, forced to resign his U.S. Senate seat from Sopranoland in a major corruption scandal. Nick Acocella, editor of the respected insider newsletter New Jersey Politifax, recalls that, at the height of the Torricelli scandal, and while Chertoff was U.S. Attorney, he saw The Torch and Chertoff together at a South Jersey Jewish banquet where they embraced and huddled intimately “like twins separated at birth.” One would have thought a federal prosecutor would have kept his distance from a target of criminal investigations that were making daily headlines in the Jersey press.

When Chertoff was named by Bush to head the Justice Department’s Criminal Division--partly because he was a skilled political hitman, who’d also raised a ton of money as financial vice-chair of Bush’s Garden State campaign in 2000-- it’s an open secret in Jersey that he squelched an indictment of Torricelli as a reward for The Torch’s support of key Bush legislation the Democratic Party leadership opposed, including tax cuts for corporations and the very rich. (Many of the fat-cats Chertoff shook down for Bush had also been huge givers to The Torch.)

Long active in the Federalist Society--a conspiratorial brotherhood of legal reactionaries--Chertoff, at Justice, helped to write the civil liberties-shredding Patriot Act. He was John Ashcroft’s honcho in the indiscriminate grilling of over 5000 Arab-Americans after 9/11, cooked up the use of “material witness” warrants to lock up people of Middle Eastern descent and hold them indefinitely without trial, and on behalf of the Justice Department wrote a brief (in Chavez v. Martinez) arguing there was no Constitutional right to be free of coercive police questioning.

Moreover, Chertoff wrote legislation, known as the Feeney Amendment, which gutted federal sentencing guidelines -- under which federal judges were allowed to use some discretion when sentencing criminal defendants -- by preventing judges from shortening sentences--and, worse, required judges who deviated from the Feeney Amendment to have their names and actions reported to the Justice Department, thus establishing what Sen. Teddy Kennedy denounced as a judicial “blacklist.“

Why would Chertoff give up a lifetime seat on the federal bench to take a job in the hornet’s nest of problems that is the DHS? According to a top Jersey Democratic pol who knows Chertoff well, Chertoff--described as being “as cold-blooded as they come“-- has a personal agenda that includes becoming U.S. Attorney General and, eventually, grabbing a seat on the U.S. Supreme Court. But there’s a problem for Chertoff with conservative Republicans--he happens to be pro-choice. So, taking the DHS job is Chertoff’s way to “make his bones,” as they say in Jersey, and grab headlines as a hard-line persecutor of “the towel-heads” to please the right and neutralize his abortion stance.

However, Chertoff has zero experience in running anything remotely resembling DHS, a mammoth with 180,000 employees and 22 federal agencies under its umbrella. He was picked for two reasons: his political loyalty to Bush (he won’t go off the reservation on his own as Tom Ridge did) and the fact that he’s already been confirmed by the Senate thrice, so he has no hidden Kerik-like problems and will sail through with little or no opposition from the spineless Democrats (he’s already been endorsed by Sens. Chuck Schumer and Joe Lieberman for the DHS job). But choosing someone on the basis of confirmability rather than qualifications is dangerous--as is the choice of a hyper-ambitious Torquemada for a job with enormous power over our already-reduced rights and liberties, which will no doubt be further eroded under Chertoff.
P.S. NO ROOM AT THE INN: Just before Christmas, New York Law Prof. Art Leonard wrote in his Gay City News legal column, Chertoff rendered a lethal anti-gay decision in which he denied asylum to a Jamaican gay man who had been outed by an inflammatory newspsper article, assaulted by neighborhood anti-gay gangs, and forced to seek political asylum in the U.S. to save his life--and in doing so over-ruled an immigration judge who had found the man's life was at risk and that he deserved asylum from Jamaica's notoriously homophobic culture. To read about this cold and mean Chertoff decision, click here. (http://gaycitynews.com/gcn_348/gayjamaicanloses.html) (Thanks to Art's GCN colleague Andy Humm for bringing this to my attention,)
MORE ON TEAM BUSH: In the same L.A. Weekly issue as the above dissection of Chertoff, you can also find a profile by me of Bush's new chief domestic policy adviser entitled "The Bush Theocracy: Righteous Homophobe Claude Allen Brings His Agenda to the White House." (http://www.laweekly.com/ink/05/08/news-ireland2.php)
Posted by Doug Ireland at 12:11 AM | Permalink (http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/01/mike_chertoffs_.html)



Yah, and it was the GOP putting on show of "opposing" it.

In the march toward tyranny, the left boot takes a step, then the right boot takes a step...

Back in the late 90s, John Ashcroft was one of the most "outspoken" opponents of government's efforts (Clipper Chip) to reign in encryption technology so us mundanes wouldn't have a way to communicate with each without government being able to listen in.

Once the GOP was firmly in place and after 9/11, of course, he was all in favor of government snooping on everything we do.

Opponents of his book reading list keeping were called, guess what, "hysterical".

We're always "hysterical" and "over reacting" when our rights are being taken from us.

cindy25
11-23-2010, 07:36 PM
Viet Dinh was never in congress.

the idea was Joe Biden's as I see it

Todd
11-23-2010, 07:47 PM
You are correct. It was after the Oklahoma City bombing.

Looks like he's had his hand in this earlier than that.

Comprehensive Counter-Terrorism Act of 1991

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d102:s.00266:

MRoCkEd
11-23-2010, 07:49 PM
Starts 8:20

YouTube - Glenn Beck Part 1 - Who Wrote The Patriot Act? 11/23/2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-i6gRaSsus&t=8m20s)

idirtify
11-23-2010, 09:22 PM
I don’t watch much Beck, but I support anybody who stimulates people to wonder, “what SOB wrote that shit?”

dejavu22
11-24-2010, 10:10 PM
sorry to pull this off the fifth page but i had to create an account in order to post and it took a day to get approved. (been reading often and talking in the vent channel from time to time since 2007)

anyways...

you guys are missing the most interesting part of this particular legislation.

If you look at the date it was actually put forward in February before OK bombing even occurred. The nyt wrote the following article about the bill at that time.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/04/21/us/terror-oklahoma-congress-anti-terrorism-bill-blast-turns-snail-into-race-horse.html


Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, the ranking Democrat on the Judiciary Committee, introduced the bill on behalf of the Clinton Administration in February. But even as he did so, he noted that he was strongly opposed to that provision.

So although yes it was introduced and sponsored by Biden it was written by the justice dept and Clinton admin. So Biden's statement "I drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing." is false for 2 reasons.

RonPaulCult
11-24-2010, 10:12 PM
sorry to pull this off the fifth page but i had to create an account in order to post and it took a day to get approved. (been reading often and talking in the vent channel from time to time since 2007)

anyways...

you guys are missing the most interesting part of this particular legislation.

If you look at the date it was actually put forward in February before OK bombing even occurred. The nyt wrote the following article about the bill at that time.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/04/21/us/terror-oklahoma-congress-anti-terrorism-bill-blast-turns-snail-into-race-horse.html



So although yes it was introduced and sponsored by Biden it was written by the justice dept and Clinton admin. So Biden's statement "I drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing." is also false.

Whoa - that's heavy and very interesting. Thanks for signing up to share that info and welcome to the forums (as a registered member)

speciallyblend
11-24-2010, 10:13 PM
who's beck?

Knightskye
11-24-2010, 10:21 PM
James Sensenbrenner is always introducing bills like that. Maybe he knows.


who's beck?

YouTube - Beck - Where It's At (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPfmNxKLDG4)

Mach
11-24-2010, 11:36 PM
I was watching when Beck said Biden wrote the Patriot Act and that made me squint in disgust... so he's was kinda right huh? Beck needs to go smoke a fat one with Rivera out behind Fox and have a talk about 9/11.



who's beck?

:rolleyes:

YouTube - Jeff Beck - I Ain't Superstitious (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YxpDEpngko)