Amazing interview w/ Mike Moore & Healthcare

[vita3]

guy.. who used to work to target Moore & his documentary, Sicko

Sorry it's thru Olberman, but it really gets out how shitty healthcare companies are.

YouTube - Keith Olbermann - Wendell Potter Apologizes To Michael Moore (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xlpcDnr7eM)

[vita3]

Bump for a man quitting his job as a Healthcare Industry propogandist & then telling the truth.

You dont see this everyday in $$America$$

[trey4sports]

??????

I think you're on the wrong board

[haaaylee]

??????

I think you're on the wrong board


i thought the exact same thing.

[awake]

I think Mr.Moore would gladly accept the position of Czar of The Peoples Film and Media Department of the mother homeland - The United Socialist States of America.

[RCA]

welcome to the wrong forum!

[fletcher]

You belong here (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x528272).

Although I did get a laugh from you applauding this man for quitting his job as a 'propagandist' and then telling his story to Michal Moore, who literally makes propaganda films.

[vita3]

I get that folks on here, hate moore & olberman.. but I met a 911 first responder in Moore's film SICKO & have followed there story up close & personel.

The guy literally was paid to follow Moore & type up talking points, that the media printed. It's something that he quit that job & apologizes to Moore in this interview.

Maybe a "liberty" media guy could interview the two, get the story & ask questions that people here are acceptable to.

[Sola_Fide]

lolololololololololololololololololololol

[vita3]

what's so funny aqualbuddah?

I stopped laughing on this issue, after going to DC in support of the 911 first responders. That's where I met a lady featured in Moore's doc . I also met a very sick man due to breathing in the WTC dust, trying to find & identify little body parts amongst the scooped rubble, brought to fresh kills NY

He died few months later, but his wife & kids have to deal without him.

[haaaylee]

I get that folks on here, hate moore & olberman.. but I met a 911 first responder in Moore's film SICKO & have followed there story up close & personel.

The guy literally was paid to follow Moore & type up talking points, that the media printed. It's something that he quit that job & apologizes to Moore in this interview.

Maybe a "liberty" media guy could interview the two, get the story & ask questions that people here are acceptable to.


You have so many grammatical errors and the incorrect use of words here, that I really want to retype everything in the proper way . . .

[Heimdallr]

You have so many grammatical errors and the incorrect use of words here, that I really want to retype everything in the proper way . . .

Yeah its an, gramatial abomation...!...!

[nobody's_hero]

Contract law.

There are a lot of people out there who are expecting something out of the insurance companies that the insurance companies never agreed to.

There are perhaps, as well, things that insurance companies agreed to but did not pay out.

If we had an honest justice system, one that wasn't so entertained with powers that it was never intended to have, and instead one that was efficient enough to be a mediator in contract disputes, we would not have such a problem with insurance companies in this country.

[Sola_Fide]

what's so funny aqualbuddah?

I stopped laughing on this issue, after going to DC in support of the 911 first responders. That's where I met a lady featured in Moore's doc . I also met a very sick man due to breathing in the WTC dust, trying to find & identify little body parts amongst the scooped rubble, brought to fresh kills NY

He died few months later, but his wife & kids have to deal without him.



..............


Huh?

[vita3]

nobody's hero,

Fair point.

My grammar & spelling is not top-notch.. miss the days when I had a secretary.. bare with me on that folks'

[Sola_Fide]

nobody's hero,

Fair point.

My grammar & spelling is not top-notch.. miss the days when I had a secretary.. bare with me on that folks'

^^^you have to be a troll...to get called out on your grammar and then type THAT

:)

[GreenLP]

Geez, what's with the pro-corporate health care crowd?

Good post vita3.

[vita3]

thank-you.

I'm brand-new here, but w/ the bitter responses I was wondering if a health insurance co, ran this site

[GreenLP]

thank-you.

I'm brand-new here, but w/ the bitter responses I was wondering if a health insurance co, ran this site
You'll find out very soon that, even though this is supposedly a Libertarian forum, most members have a hard right slant.

[Sola_Fide]

Geez, what's with the pro-corporate health care crowd?

Good post vita3.




Corporate healthcare IS government healthcare.

[Melissa]

thank-you.

I'm brand-new here, but w/ the bitter responses I was wondering if a health insurance co, ran this site

It is not bitterness, it is the fact that I dont want socialism and that is what Moore is suggesting.

[GreenLP]

Corporate healthcare IS government healthcare.
Wouldn't have known that by the responses to this thread.

[TheHumblePhysicist]

Why would you praise a socialist just because he is anti war? Making alliances with the anti war left is dangerous because they are anti war for the wrong reasons. Just like some people are anti gun, because gun=death=bad, the left is anti war in ALL cases. They are dancing with the unicorns in a grassy field on the moon. Let them live there with their socialist utopia. Get Michael Smores OFF this page!

[vita3]

"It is not bitterness, it is the fact that I dont want socialism and that is what Moore is suggesting."

that's why a pro-liberty guy should interview the two on this subject. expose the shady & offer their solutions

[GreenLP]

It is not bitterness, it is the fact that I dont want socialism and that is what Moore is suggesting.
Seems like the mere mention of Moore in the OP made all you miss the main point of it; the corporate health insurance company whistleblower.

Maybe you guys should have said something like even though you disagree with Moore's position on health care, he does a good job of exposing the crookedness of our corporate health care system. The way you guys responded made it sound like you were neocons.

[Sola_Fide]

Wouldn't have known that by the responses to this thread.

What I'm saying is that it is ridiculous to argue against corporatism by saying we need more government. Government is the problem. This is obvious.

[dannno]

Wouldn't have known that by the responses to this thread.

Exactly. When Moore disses capitalism, he doesn't know it himself, but he is really dissing crony capitalism and we are all against that.

What Moore is good at is finding the problems and documenting them. I think he's a great guy who has been misled into being a liberal out of hatred of the corporatocracy and compassion for the individual.

I can't watch the interview yet, but I'll check it out.

I haven't seen Sicko, but Bowling for Columbine is an excellent film about how much our controlled mainstream media sucks. He goes up against Charlton Heston, who was head of the NRA which we all HATE, and yet he never says that gun control is the solution. Some people seem to assume that Bowling for Columbine is pro-gun control when it is in fact anti-military industrial complex and controlled mainstream media.

We can find a lot of common ground with Moore.

[GreenLP]

+1 dannno

[dannno]

I usually fail to mention that Bowling for Columbine is so anti-military industrial complex when I post about it here.. I guess because I haven't seen it in some time, but it really does focus on that a lot.

I imagine that would be a huge reason why Republicans hated it so much, despite the fact that none of them really even watched it.

[awake]

You'll find out very soon that, even though this is supposedly a Libertarian forum, most members have a hard right slant.

Welcome to the forum, glad to have you here, get a helmet.

[farrar]

Exactly. When Moore disses capitalism, he doesn't know it himself, but he is really dissing crony capitalism and we are all against that.

What Moore is good at is finding the problems and documenting them. I think he's a great guy who has been misled into being a liberal out of hatred of the corporatocracy and compassion for the individual.

I can't watch the interview yet, but I'll check it out.

I haven't seen Sicko, but Bowling for Columbine is an excellent film about how much our controlled mainstream media sucks. He goes up against Charlton Heston, who was head of the NRA which we all HATE, and yet he never says that gun control is the solution. Some people seem to assume that Bowling for Columbine is pro-gun control when it is in fact anti-military industrial complex and controlled mainstream media.

We can find a lot of common ground with Moore.

I felt like that too... but when I saw the documentary Micheal moore hates america (I know it looks like a hit piece in the title but it isn't quite like that).... I lost a lot of the "mutual" respect I had for him.

[fletcher]

Seems like the mere mention of Moore in the OP made all you miss the main point of it; the corporate health insurance company whistleblower.

Maybe you guys should have said something like even though you disagree with Moore's position on health care, he does a good job of exposing the crookedness of our corporate health care system. The way you guys responded made it sound like you were neocons.

I don't think it is possible for Moore or Olbermann to make any rational point, so there is nothing to miss. Why would anyone look to a socialist and a partisan Democrat for information about the health care industry? If you're looking for facts this is not where you find them.
And neocon doesn't mean what you think it does.

[vita3]

"I don't think it is possible to Moore or Olbermann to make any rational point"

w-o-w.

[Cdn_for_liberty]

It is true that Michael Moore is against crony-capitalism or corporatism but if it's the other way around (ie. government in bed with unions, higher taxes on business) he wouldn't say a damn word. Libertarians are more consistent than the democrats when it comes to NOT supporting equality of results.

[fletcher]

"I don't think it is possible to Moore or Olbermann to make any rational point"

w-o-w.

Sorry, for, not to. The point stands. They have an agenda and are extremely loose with the facts.

[Sola_Fide]

If Michael Moore was against crony-capitalism, then why would he favor Obamacare, which forces people to buy healthcare from corporations?

Leftists are simply not consistent. Crony-capitalism is facsism, not economic freedom.

Leftists are so stupid...they fall for the ridiculous idea that the solution for failed interventionism is more interventionism. They are blinded from the source of the problem, it seems.

[jtstellar]

If Michael Moore was against crony-capitalism, then why would he favor Obamacare, which forces people to buy healthcare from corporations?

Leftists are simply not consistent. Crony-capitalism is facsism, not economic freedom.

Leftists are so stupid...they fall for the ridiculous idea that the solution for failed interventionism is more interventionism. They are blinded from the source of the problem, it seems.

exactly

pretty nauseating how apologetic some of you guys are to people who spread the wrong message. it's not like it takes years to read up on anything worth a damn about economics. what has moore done these past few years since sicko, except gaining a few pounds. ye, it's getting personal. now go play your "i'm a nice guy libertarian, ooh, you get a slap on the wrist for only getting it half right" game.

[dannno]

I don't think it is possible for Moore or Olbermann to make any rational point, so there is nothing to miss.

LOL, well you are completely and utterly just wrong.

Olbermann used to trash Bush on the war and civil liberties to high heaven, and all of us at the forum used to watch and cheer with excitement because what he was saying was correct.

Moore makes some excellent points in Bowling for Columbine about our media and the military industrial complex, and Fahrenheit 9/11 was essential for many people to become interested in the events of 9/11 again to see how fraudulent the whole thing was.. and to see how foreign interests have more control over our country than the vast majority of people thought at the time.

[dannno]

If Michael Moore was against crony-capitalism, then why would he favor Obamacare, which forces people to buy healthcare from corporations?

Leftists are simply not consistent. Crony-capitalism is facsism, not economic freedom.

Leftists are so stupid...they fall for the ridiculous idea that the solution for failed interventionism is more interventionism. They are blinded from the source of the problem, it seems.

Ya, but at least leftists understand the problems..

Go talk to a Republican 4 years ago and ask them about business being in bed with government, or the other way around, and they would laugh at you. Talk to a liberal about it and they would agree with you, and they'd be right.

As one of my open minded friends said the other day, "Conservative problems have liberal solutions and liberal problems have conservative solutions."

For example, poverty is a problem that people mostly on the left are concerned about, and the best approach to decreasing poverty is a conservative solution.

Terrorism is a problem that people on the right are concerned about, and the best approaching to decreasing terrorism is a liberal (anti-war, anti-imperialist) solution.

People on the right, concerned about drugs and the violence they cause.. the solution would be a liberal, legalizing drugs solution (we're talking mainstream left-right positions, obviously libertarians have always wanted to legalize drugs, that's kind of the point I'm making here)

People on the left, concerned about unaffordable health care.. conservative solution...

[dannno]

exactly

pretty nauseating how apologetic some of you guys are to people who spread the wrong message. it's not like it takes years to read up on anything worth a damn about economics. what has moore done these past few years since sicko, except gaining a few pounds. ye, it's getting personal. now go play your "i'm a nice guy libertarian, ooh, you get a slap on the wrist for only getting it half right" game.

Getting it half right is better than getting nothing right, and when I think of Republicans from 2004, they were getting nothing right.. liberals were at least half right.

Of course I'd like to remind everyone that this discussion is taking place within the false left-right paradigm.

[revolutionary8]

I haven't seen Sicko, but Bowling for Columbine is an excellent film about how much our controlled mainstream media sucks. He goes up against Charlton Heston, who was head of the NRA which we all HATE, and yet he never says that gun control is the solution. Some people seem to assume that Bowling for Columbine is pro-gun control when it is in fact anti-military industrial complex and controlled mainstream media.

We can find a lot of common ground with Moore.

danno, this couldn't be further from the truth. First of all, BFC was a whitewash, just like Fahrenheit 911. He never even touches on things like this:

Family: Columbine Student Killed By Cop
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/12/27/national/main322525.shtml

Columbine Parent Releases Ballistics Report
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/1186150/detail.html

"Students;Gunmen belonged to a dark group."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/colo/colo02.htm


If he had, THAT would have been ant-MIC.

In fact, what you say is misleading, because Moore himself is misleading... He claims that "guns aren't at fault"- yet he takes those poor kids shot up and gets them to protest WAL MART to get AMMO off the shelves.

Moore doesn't want to go after the guns, he wants to go after the AMMO.

BFC was Moore pathetic propaganda.

[Sola_Fide]

Ya, but at least leftists understand the problems..

Go talk to a Republican 4 years ago and ask them about business being in bed with government, or the other way around, and they would laugh at you. Talk to a liberal about it and they would agree with you, and they'd be right.

As one of my open minded friends said the other day, "Conservative problems have liberal solutions and liberal problems have conservative solutions."

For example, poverty is a problem that people mostly on the left are concerned about, and the best approach to decreasing poverty is a conservative solution. Terrorism is a problem that people on the right are concerned about, and the best approaching to decreasing terrorism is a liberal (anti-war, anti-imperialist) solution.

People on the right, concerned about drugs and the violence they cause.. the solution would be a liberal, legalizing drugs solution (we're talking mainstream left-right positions, obviously libertarians have always wanted to legalize drugs, that's kind of the point I'm making here)

People on the left, concerned about unaffordable health care.. conservative solution...


I see where you are going with that, but the solution to all those problems is Liberty. Poverty, war, drugs...the government makes all those things worse (or creates the problem to begin with).

[fletcher]

LOL, well you are completely and utterly just wrong.

Olbermann used to trash Bush on the war and civil liberties to high heaven, and all of us at the forum used to watch and cheer with excitement because what he was saying was correct.

Moore makes some excellent points in Bowling for Columbine about our media and the military industrial complex, and Fahrenheit 9/11 was essential for many people to become interested in the events of 9/11 again to see how fraudulent the whole thing was.. and to see how foreign interests have more control over our country than the vast majority of people thought at the time.

Well we'll just have to disagree because I think you are completely wrong. I have never cheered Olbermann, nor seen a large number of people here cheer Olbermann, so your claim that 'all of us at the forum used to watch and cheer with excitement' is just not true. Olbermann opposed Bush because he was a Republican. That is all. His partisan attacks aren't worthy of any praise. And Moore's propaganda films came no where close to making excellent points. I had to turn 9/11 of because it was complete garbage. FOX News stole the election for Bush!!! LOL.

[dannno]

I'd also like to remind some of you here that Ron Paul endorsed Ralph Nader, Cynthia McKinney, Bob Barr and Chuck Baldwin for President. Why? Because Ron Paul laid out several of the most important policy changes that he thought were necessary to bring about a more free society, and these candidates signed onto to the entire platform which happened to be consistent with all of their previous campaign platforms!!

Bush doubled the size of government during his 8 year term, whereas Nader, McKinney and Baldwin all would have rolled us back out of Iraq/Afghanistan and rolled back our foreign empire. Had any of these four been in office from 04-08 they would have done FAAAARR less damage to our economy than Bush did. Not to mention a lot of innocent lives would have been saved.

Obama is increasing defense spending and domestic spending, doing the same thing as Bush. That is why we need to get out of the false left-right paradigm and look to making our country better, whether that solution comes from the left or from the right.

I'm not saying I agree with Nader and McKinney on everything, but if you're rabidly anti-left, rather than anti-establishment, then you're missing the big picture, you're missing what is really destroying our country.

[dannno]

Well we'll just have to disagree because I think you are completely wrong. I have never cheered Olbermann, nor seen a large number of people here cheer Olbermann, so your claim that 'all of us at the forum used to watch and cheer with excitement' is just not true. Olbermann opposed Bush because he was a Republican. That is all. His partisan attacks aren't worthy of any praise.

That is complete bullshit, I'm not saying Olbermann is a good guy, but he was calling Bush out for THE THINGS THAT MATTERED and FOR THE RIGHT REASONS. If you aren't aware that he did that, then I guess you missed it, and I don't know why you are even commenting on the topic.

The important thing is that what he was saying was being said on air, because NOBODY ELSE WAS SAYING It.




And Moore's propaganda films came no where close to making excellent points.

Ok, so I guess you don't think that the military industrial complex is a bad influence on our children. Then I guess you are just wrong about life.




I had to turn 9/11 of because it was complete garbage. FOX News stole the election for Bush!!! LOL.

HAHAHAHHAHH!!! OMg... that was the first 2 minutes of the film!! You judged the ENTIRE film based on the first 2 minute montage about how Bush stole the election, which he in fact DID steal the election?! Not to mention.. that HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11 WHICH IS WHAT THE FILM WAS ABOUT!! And you don't think Fox News was a major propaganda arm for the Republican Party back in 00-04, and vital to carrying out his agenda??

You are losing all credibility here..

[fletcher]

I'm not saying I agree with Nader and McKinney on everything, but if you're rabidly anti-left, rather than anti-establishment, then you're missing the big picture, you're missing what is really destroying our country.

And yet you cheer Olbermann and Moore, who are not only rabidly anti-right, they are pro-establishment.

[dannno]

I see where you are going with that, but the solution to all those problems is Liberty. Poverty, war, drugs...the government makes all those things worse (or creates the problem to begin with).

Yes, and McKinney and Nader receive a liberty score of 80 out of 100 for me, and for Ron Paul.. they get a B-, otherwise Ron Paul would not have endorsed them, he doesn't endorse wishy washy average C candidates on his own and hold a press conference for them.

But the establishment candidates, which are Obama/Bush/Clinton/McCain/etc... they receive an F for liberty.

Ron Paul receives an A+ in my book.

So my point is you can't grade people based on where they are on the left/right scale used by the media because it doesn't follow.. the media puts Nader and McKinney on the VEERRRYY far left, yet they are B- liberty candidates.. whereas all of their establishment candidates in the middle get F's.

The people here who use the left-right scale to judge a candidates liberty ranking don't "get it"

[fletcher]

Ok, so I guess you don't think that the military industrial complex is a bad influence on our children. Then I guess you are just wrong about life.

No, I don't think the MICC is causing gun violence at home. That theory is complete bullshit. But that wasn't even the point of the movie. It was an anti-gun movie, no matter what excuses you try to make to say it wasn't. It was a propaganda film to use clever editing to attack guns and the NRA. "Just 48 hours after the shooting the NRA held a rally in the town!!!! Oh, except they didn't, but facts don't matter. I'm Michael Moore. My fans are idiots that believe the bullshit that I feed them."



HAHAHAHHAHH!!! OMg... that was the first 2 minutes of the film!! You judged the ENTIRE film based on the first 2 minute montage about how Bush stole the election, which he in fact DID steal the election?! Not to mention.. that HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11 WHICH IS WHAT THE FILM WAS ABOUT!! And you don't think Fox News was a major propaganda arm for the Republican Party back in 00-04, and vital to carrying out his agenda??

You are losing all credibility here..

I'm losing credibility because I don't think Fox News stole the election for Bush. LOL. Who knew Fox News had the power to declare the winner of an election after the votes had been counted!

[Heimdallr]

I'm losing credibility because I don't think Fox News stole the election for Bush. LOL. Who knew Fox News had the power to declare the winner of an election after the votes had been counted!


No, because you dismissed the film without watching it.

[dannno]

And yet you cheer Olbermann and Moore, who are not only rabidly anti-right, they are pro-establishment.

Where did I cheer them on?? I cheered on Olbermann's speeches which were very good and on point..

I said Olbermann made some great speeches about Bush at a time when it was needed. I specifically said I didn't think he is a good guy, he's been doing a terrible job since Obama came in.. I cheered and gloated when MSNBC let him go just like you no doubt did...

You're problem is that you won't admit that Olbermann made some amazingly important speeches against what Bush was doing. You won't admit that he was right. You are saying he has always been wrong. That is ridiculous.

As for Moore, I never cheered him on either.. I disagree with A LOT of the stuff he has done, I refuse to watch Sicko..

But I'm not going to sit back and say he was wrong about the military industrial complex and the media in Bowling for Columbine.. The fact is Moore was the ONLY person to come out and blame these groups for causing an environment that would lead to individuals carrying out something like Columbine, above all other groups that the media was blaming.. and also revealing more about these groups than is directly related to the specific incidents which are devolving our country into what it is...

I'm not going to sit back and think that it wasn't important for Moore to point out that the Saudis owned 13% of our economy, and point out that most of the terrorists were Saudi, and that the Bush family is VERY close to the Saudi Royal family, and maybe there is something to that involving the 9/11 attacks.. which there IS...

And you shouldn't sit back either, you should seek out the truth wherever you can find it and stop with the left/right paradigm blinders you have on.

[dannno]

No, I don't think the MICC is causing gun violence at home. That theory is complete bullshit.

I'm sorry you can't make the simple connection.. I mean, it is more complicated than just that, but our MIC causes this attitude in many ways.



But that wasn't even the point of the movie. It was an anti-gun movie, no matter what excuses you try to make to say it wasn't. It was a propaganda film to use clever editing to attack guns and the NRA.

No, that WAS the point of the movie.. He even specifically said that gun laws don't correlate to less violent societies.

The NRA blows, I'm glad he attacked the NRA, they SUCK!! You should join the GOA instead.




"Just 48 hours after the shooting the NRA held a rally in the town!!!! Oh, except they didn't, but facts don't matter. I'm Michael Moore. My fans are idiots that believe the bullshit that I feed them."

He held it 11 days later, but of course you don't mention that so what does that make you? I wouldn't have held the rally either and again I hate the NRA. What's your point?




I'm losing credibility because I don't think Fox News stole the election for Bush. LOL. Who knew Fox News had the power to declare the winner of an election after the votes had been counted!

There are plenty of books on the topic, Bush stole both elections. If you want to be an apologist for Bush or pre-2008 Fox News, you are on the wrong board.

[fletcher]

And you shouldn't sit back either, you should seek out the truth wherever you can find it and stop with the left/right paradigm blinders you have on.

I do seek the truth, which is why I don't trust a word that a socialist propaganda film maker and a partisan-democrat say. Any bits of truth you find there will be hidden in their pro-establishment, pro-Democrat agenda. If you want the real truth, look elsewhere.

[dannno]

I do seek the truth, which is why I don't trust a word that a socialist propaganda film maker and a partisan-democrat say. Any bits of truth you find there will be hidden in their pro-establishment, pro-Democrat agenda. If you want the real truth, look elsewhere.

Well duh, I already said that.

The point is that they were the only ones putting out those important nuggets into the mainstream, and THAT is a good thing and worth noting and sharing. I always pass stuff on to people with disclaimers.. "Hey, you should watch this.. I don't agree with this guy on _______________, but he makes some really important points about __________________"

[dannno]

I still haven't seen the video in the OP after all this...sheeesh..

[dannno]

Oh ya, back to Olbermann.. he's actually a great tool to use to show how shitty the MSM is.. I mean, most everyone can sit back and watch his speeches against Bush and agree with them, but it is also easy to point out how Obama is doing all of the same things and Olbermann isn't saying shit anymore.. Once somebody sees that happening, and you point it out and are able to provide a more principled position and principled set of individuals and candidates you can actually sway people over from the left who got caught up in it all.

[ChaosControl]

The health insurance industry is a big scam. The idea that insurance should even be for profit is ridiculous. I oppose government involvement, but I dislike the idea of the health industry having profit as a part of it.

I want to try and start some form of insurance pool, something that anyone in the nation can buy into that covers catastrophic events. Also function as a charity/partner with charities to gain money to cover those who cannot afford to pay their portion. But even if such a thing works out, that only addresses the insurance side of things, there is plenty wrong on the health access/providing side as well.

[Sola_Fide]

My problem with supporting leftists who are "anti war" and for "civil liberties" is that often they do not have a sound basis for being against war.

They also do not argue for liberties, but rather argue that the government enshrine and enforce their morality.

The gay and lesbian communities are not arguing for liberties, they are arguing for their particular brand of interventionism. Sad but true.

[dannno]

The health insurance industry is a big scam. The idea that insurance should even be for profit is ridiculous. I oppose government involvement, but I dislike the idea of the health industry having profit as a part of it.

I want to try and start some form of insurance pool, something that anyone in the nation can buy into that covers catastrophic events. Also function as a charity/partner with charities to gain money to cover those who cannot afford to pay their portion. But even if such a thing works out, that only addresses the insurance side of things, there is plenty wrong on the health access/providing side as well.

The reason the health care industry and insurance is in such bad shape is because of all the regulations from the Federal Govt.

Health insurance used to be extremely affordable, and health care expenses were much lower before the government got involved in the whole thing.

[fletcher]

I'm sorry you can't make the simple connection.. I mean, it is more complicated than just that, but our MIC causes this attitude in many ways.

The connection is all in your head. Ask any violent criminal why they are violent and not a single one will tell you the MICC.


No, that WAS the point of the movie.. He even specifically said that gun laws don't correlate to less violent societies.

The NRA blows, I'm glad he attacked the NRA, they SUCK!! You should join the GOA instead.

I'm not a big fan of the NRA, but that doesn't mean they are responsible for the gun violence in this country. Every theory Moore presented in the movie was a complete joke.


He held it 11 days later, but of course you don't mention that so what does that make you? I wouldn't have held the rally either and again I hate the NRA. What's your point?

Actually, it was eight months later, and it wasn't even an NRA rally. It was a get out the vote rally, and Moore was there too. The point is Moore uses clever editing to lie to the viewer. He does this the entire movie. Is is where you're looking for truth?


The votes weren't counted. There are plenty of books on the topic, Bush stole both elections. If you want to be an apologist for Bush or pre-2008 Fox News, you are on the wrong board.

LOL. So if you don't buy Moore's theory that Fox News was able to steal the election for Bush somehow by calling Florida for him then you are an apologist for Bush and Fox News. Sorry, I don't like Bush or Fox News, but I do like the truth, even if it favors people I don't like.

[dannno]

My problem with supporting leftists who are "anti war" and for "civil liberties" is that often they do not have a sound basis for being against war.

You mean the genuine lefties or the tools?? Most people who are anti-war are against our empire and against us killing innocent people. Trust me, it's for the right reasons for many of them.. If you go to a leftist University and take leftist courses, you actually learn about our foreign empire and how the world bank destroys developing nations.. that is why after my education it was so refreshing to hear this stuff from someone on the right who aligned more with my economic philosophy... I wanted NOTHING to do with Republicans until I heard Ron Paul speak in the debates, because before that they were all war-mongering, unconstitutional monsters.





They also do not argue for liberties, but rather argue that the government enshrine and enforce their morality.

I would agree with you on the economic side, they want to force rich people to give to poor people because that is what they imagine they would would want to do with their money if they were rich.




The gay and lesbian communities are not arguing for liberties, they are arguing for their particular brand of interventionism. Sad but true.

I disagree.. I would say that there are some gay people who want to force their lifestyle on the churches and school system, but the vast majority of the gay community just want to be treated equally... which they should be, the government should treat everyone equally.. that is a big part of our whole liberty deal, is that the government shouldn't make everyone equal, but they should treat everyone equal. That means providing the same opportunities for gay couples as for straight couples. Otherwise don't provide them for anyone.

[Combs84]

If people in this movement were more like Danno, you would see a TON of liberal support to get behind what it stands for(I know I know...you don't want us darn liberals in here). But again, judging from the responses in this thread and pretty much any thread...it's 100% clear that this is just a partisan Republican movement as much as you like to say both sides are the problem(which they are).

I have liberal views when it comes to things like social issues and war. And I have conservative issues on tons of other things. The only thing I would disagree on with a lot of people here is healthcare. And I don't even think Obama care is the answer, but healthcare is so screwed right now i'm willing to give it a shot.

I think a lot of you don't really talk to liberals. I have read over and over that Liberals are the close-minded ones. Yet we're always the ones standing there waiting for a compromise.

I think a lot of you know the hard right republicans hijacked this movement. And come the next election, when Obama is voted out of office...all of those people will disappear. And then the Republicans will be back in the drivers seat, and liberals will be whining like they always do...sitting back and watching. And then you will wonder if this movement ever really meant anything at all. It still can mean something. But when curious liberals like myself come here to check out if what i see on TV is really the partisan republican hacks that make up the tea party...it seems like it is. You just throw anybody who doesn't agree with you 100% under the bus. But you fail to realize that 80% of the people who have signed up since Obama has been president are just here because their angry about Democrats being in control.

I really respect the posts Danno made in this thread(and not just because Trailer Park Boys is one of my favorite shows). It would seem he understands that it's not one party against another. It's us vs the government, and it involves working together. I don't care how you guys proceed...but it's my opinion you'd be well served not having 5 pages of ignorant rants about 2 liberals, even when they are on the right side of the argument.

[Todd]

We can find a lot of common ground with Moore.


Yeah...the common ground is that he recognizes some of the problems.

Then there's the unpleasent solutions he offers which is more socialism.

[dannno]

The connection is all in your head. Ask any violent criminal why they are violent and not a single one will tell you the MICC.

Ok, what will a violent criminal tell you? Will they tell you specifically why they committed the crime, or will they give you the psychological reasoning behind why they did it?




Actually, it was eight months later, and it wasn't even an NRA rally. It was a get out the vote rally, and Moore was there too.

LOL, no, now you're getting propaganda. It was 11 days later, and it was toned down from what it was originally supposed to be.

Their excuse was that it was "too late" to move the meeting, it had been planned in advance.

I think people would have understood if the meeting had been moved to another town within driving distance of Denver. They didn't need to have it right in Littleton.

There have been a lot of debunkings of Moore's films which I have gone through and found to be mostly bullshit. Moore's films sometimes contain errors, but there are WAAAAYY more errors in the debunkings I have seen of his films then the films themselves. So you should really be careful.




LOL. So if you don't buy Moore's theory that Fox News was able to steal the election for Bush somehow by calling Florida for him then you are an apologist for Bush and Fox News. Sorry, I don't like Bush or Fox News, but I do like the truth, even if it favors people I don't like.


I have no doubt in my mind that the whole Fox News thing was completely scripted from the top, the Republican establishment was pulling out all the stops to get him elected no matter what it took. There's plenty of evidence for this.

Read all about PNAC, the neocons were totally pulling the strings.. Gore is a puppet too, but they needed Bush to get their foreign empire goals going. No time to waste, they were in a hurry.

[Sola_Fide]

The only thing I would disagree on with a lot of people here is healthcare. And I don't even think Obama care is the answer, but healthcare is so screwed right now i'm willing to give it a shot.


????????

[dannno]

????????

From the leftist perspective, they see a scam going on in the 'private sector' and they figure that if the government handled it benevolently then the private sector wouldn't be able to profit off said scam. In theory assuming benevolence, they could be right, but I despise our health care system so much, everything about it, that I don't think it is possible, even with benevolence (which would never happen).

The real problem is the government is the one who setup the scam to begin with, and there is no indication that they will handle anything that big benevolently in the future..

Combs, I have to say that any power grab the government makes over health care is going to be a power grab for the medical industrial complex.. somebody has to make the drugs and run the services that the government provides money for, so somebody is going to lobby government to give them more money.

When you leave it to the individual, then you get an increase in service and decrease in cost because the individual makes the decision and has more choices.

The problem right now is government is already too involved in health care. That is why the insurance companies and the medical equipment companies are able to continue this scam, and it is why the costs of health care go up every year instead of going down with all the new technology we have.

[RM918]

I definitely think danno is on the mark and it's really a shame some people here have lost the ability to have a calm conversation with people of opposing views if they show up. Throwing around labels and making sweeping generalizations is exactly what the other two parties do to discount us and each other, we won't get anywhere if we keep it up.

[AuH20]

Geez, what's with the pro-corporate health care crowd?

Good post vita3.

At some point, the people of this nation have to realize that taking health care from the enemy at others' expense isn't in their best interest either.

[fletcher]

LOL, no, now you're getting propaganda. It was 11 days later, and it was toned down from what it was originally supposed to be.


You're talking about something completely different. I'm talking about the shooting near flint. Moore says Heston came to flint for a gun rally and then text on the screen says "within 48 hours of the shooting." The text has nothing to do with Heston or any gun rally. Moore does this stuff throughout all of his movies to get people to believe whatever he wants them to believe.


There have been a lot of debunkings of Moore's films which I have gone through and found to be mostly bullshit. Moore's films sometimes contain errors, but there are WAAAAYY more errors in the debunkings I have seen of his films then the films themselves. So you should really be careful.

I have also gone though a lot of debunkings of Moore's films and have found them to be very accurate. It's Moore's movies that are mostly bullshit. It's not that Moore's propaganda films contain errors, it's that he purposely misleads the viewer.

[Lord Xar]

I think Moore is an extreme liability to freedom.
He reminds me of Gore. He will pimp and promote an agenda and use false & out of context environs to bring a point home, for greed. He even said he wasn't in the business of telling the truth, but he is a "film maker".

I think Moore might find common ground in some of our beliefs but that is like inviting a molester into your home because he thinks the government spends too much money. He is vile, propagandist, and I would even go so far as call him a communist. Such a man can never be a man of freedom and liberty.

Siding with him will surely spell your demise in a much faster fashion than otherwise realized.

[Todd]

I definitely think danno is on the mark and it's really a shame some people here have lost the ability to have a calm conversation with people of opposing views if they show up. Throwing around labels and making sweeping generalizations is exactly what the other two parties do to discount us and each other, we won't get anywhere if we keep it up.


Ok I can agree with that.

I watched Capitalism a love story. Much of what Danno is saying is correct in that Moore seems to hate crony capitalism. He hates it so much and has experienced first hand how damaging it has been, that he now equates it with what in his vision is the reality of capitalism.

So many times watching that film I kept saying to myself "Michael...you are so close".

[AuH20]

If people in this movement were more like Danno, you would see a TON of liberal support to get behind what it stands for(I know I know...you don't want us darn liberals in here). But again, judging from the responses in this thread and pretty much any thread...it's 100% clear that this is just a partisan Republican movement as much as you like to say both sides are the problem(which they are).

I have liberal views when it comes to things like social issues and war. And I have conservative issues on tons of other things. The only thing I would disagree on with a lot of people here is healthcare. And I don't even think Obama care is the answer, but healthcare is so screwed right now i'm willing to give it a shot.

I think a lot of you don't really talk to liberals. I have read over and over that Liberals are the close-minded ones. Yet we're always the ones standing there waiting for a compromise.

I think a lot of you know the hard right republicans hijacked this movement. And come the next election, when Obama is voted out of office...all of those people will disappear. And then the Republicans will be back in the drivers seat, and liberals will be whining like they always do...sitting back and watching. And then you will wonder if this movement ever really meant anything at all. It still can mean something. But when curious liberals like myself come here to check out if what i see on TV is really the partisan republican hacks that make up the tea party...it seems like it is. You just throw anybody who doesn't agree with you 100% under the bus. But you fail to realize that 80% of the people who have signed up since Obama has been president are just here because their angry about Democrats being in control.

I really respect the posts Danno made in this thread(and not just because Trailer Park Boys is one of my favorite shows). It would seem he understands that it's not one party against another. It's us vs the government, and it involves working together. I don't care how you guys proceed...but it's my opinion you'd be well served not having 5 pages of ignorant rants about 2 liberals, even when they are on the right side of the argument.

It's not about taking sides. Too many on the mainstream right and left have this naive perspective in which they can use the government to fulfill goals dear to their heart. The problem with many of these ignorant "do-gooders" is that many of them have spent little time acquiring the wisdom that is necessary to understand the fearsome power they are dealing with it. Some republicans propose that America should be promoting democratic ideals around the world, while overlooking the dark side of the imperial dealings that go part and parcel with these campaigns. On the other side of the coin, some democrats are adamant that social engineering is a prerequisite in their ideal society, individual rights and personal volition be damned.

[awake]

Violence is not the answer, I repeat, the state is not the answer.

[Ekrub]

As one of my open minded friends said the other day, "Conservative problems have liberal solutions and liberal problems have conservative solutions."

I like that.

[Son of Detroit]

If people in this movement were more like Danno, you would see a TON of liberal support to get behind what it stands for(I know I know...you don't want us darn liberals in here). But again, judging from the responses in this thread and pretty much any thread...it's 100% clear that this is just a partisan Republican movement as much as you like to say both sides are the problem(which they are).

I have liberal views when it comes to things like social issues and war. And I have conservative issues on tons of other things. The only thing I would disagree on with a lot of people here is healthcare. And I don't even think Obama care is the answer, but healthcare is so screwed right now i'm willing to give it a shot.

I think a lot of you don't really talk to liberals. I have read over and over that Liberals are the close-minded ones. Yet we're always the ones standing there waiting for a compromise.

I think a lot of you know the hard right republicans hijacked this movement. And come the next election, when Obama is voted out of office...all of those people will disappear. And then the Republicans will be back in the drivers seat, and liberals will be whining like they always do...sitting back and watching. And then you will wonder if this movement ever really meant anything at all. It still can mean something. But when curious liberals like myself come here to check out if what i see on TV is really the partisan republican hacks that make up the tea party...it seems like it is. You just throw anybody who doesn't agree with you 100% under the bus. But you fail to realize that 80% of the people who have signed up since Obama has been president are just here because their angry about Democrats being in control.

I really respect the posts Danno made in this thread(and not just because Trailer Park Boys is one of my favorite shows). It would seem he understands that it's not one party against another. It's us vs the government, and it involves working together. I don't care how you guys proceed...but it's my opinion you'd be well served not having 5 pages of ignorant rants about 2 liberals, even when they are on the right side of the argument.

Is this the Combs that I think it is?? Former Michigander turned Texan? :eek:

[LibForestPaul]

what's so funny aqualbuddah?

I stopped laughing on this issue, after going to DC in support of the 911 first responders. That's where I met a lady featured in Moore's doc . I also met a very sick man due to breathing in the WTC dust, trying to find & identify little body parts amongst the scooped rubble, brought to fresh kills NY

He died few months later, but his wife & kids have to deal without him.

Q:Healthcare, socialized medicine, statist control?
A: 911, 911, 911, 911, 911

Rudy is that you?

[austin944]

Bump for a man quitting his job as a Healthcare Industry propogandist & then telling the truth.

You dont see this everyday in $$America$$

Why would you believe Wendell Potter now, as opposed to not believing him when he worked for the insurance industry? This guy strikes me as an opportunist. He's aggressively selling his book, and he evidently hires himself out as a speaker according to his web site. It appears that none of the profits from his book goes to charity. Maybe it is all about the money, but not in the way you think.

[Andrew-Austin]

If people in this movement were more like Danno, you would see a TON of liberal support to get behind what it stands for(I know I know...you don't want us darn liberals in here). But again, judging from the responses in this thread and pretty much any thread...it's 100% clear that this is just a partisan Republican movement as much as you like to say both sides are the problem(which they are).


Danno is certainly more willing to humor liberals, and I agree that is a good thing. However I believe he is still a pretty solid libertarian. He just likes to see potential in certain arenas of leftism, I'm more pessimistic in comparison. I don't see any reason to entertain the idea of Moore ever contributing much substantive dialogue, maybe I have higher standards or maybe Moore is just obnoxious/uninteresting to me.


I have liberal views when it comes to things like social issues and war. And I have conservative issues on tons of other things.

So do I. Well sort of. I'm 100% anti-war, I think gay marriage should be legal, ambivalent on abortion but think it should be legal, drug war should be ended etc.

But I would describe these views as libertarian, not liberal.

Especially the anti-war position, and especially on the drug war. Why? Because libertarians are clear on at least these two issues, liberals are wishy-washy are not very anti-war in comparison. I'm generalizing of course, some are, most just aren't though. They do not understand non-interventionism, and frankly from what I've seen of the libertarian crowd we are far more anti-war.

You have more independent liberals, and then you have liberals who pretty much affiliate themselves with the democratic party. The democratic party is not anti-war.


The only thing I would disagree on with a lot of people here is healthcare. And I don't even think Obama care is the answer, but healthcare is so screwed right now i'm willing to give it a shot.

Do you know why it is so screwed up? Because if you answer something like "the free market didn't work" or "greed drove up health care costs", I would be willing to explain why that isn't so.


I have read over and over that Liberals are the close-minded ones. Yet we're always the ones standing there waiting for a compromise.

A lot of them are close minded, or at least they are not willing to give conservative views two seconds of thought, and have never heard any views outside of the left-right paradigm.
I used to be a liberal, that was until I started reading about economics and philosophy and I became a libertarian. Most of the people on this board were either once liberals or neocons, until we changed our minds. That is a fact, and it is logical to say if we changed our minds so significantly that does not make us "close minded" .

Oh and, not wanting to compromise is not being "close minded". That is silly. You can humor other perspectives and ideas, and still not want to compromise to them because they are flawed.


I think a lot of you know the hard right republicans hijacked this movement.

Most likely the tea party has been hijacked.

But this forum and the RP crowd? No, I have eyes, this forum is still populated heavily with Ron Paul libertarians. Some call themselves Republicans because they think working in the Republican party will go somewhere, but they are still mostly libertarian on most issues.
And I know you don't have anything to substantiate a claim to the contrary.

.
And come the next election, when Obama is voted out of office...all of those people will disappear. And then the Republicans will be back in the drivers seat, and liberals will be whining like they always do...sitting back and watching. And then you will wonder if this movement ever really meant anything at all. It still can mean something. But when curious liberals like myself come here to check out if what i see on TV is really the partisan republican hacks that make up the tea party...it seems like it is.

Rhetoric. Just stay a while dude, see if you don't change your minds on health care.

Just because we disagree with democrats and liberals does not make us "partisan republican hacks", I fail to see why you don't understand that. Do you know what libertarianism is? It isn't just something trendy conservatives call themselves, despite what you may have heard on the television.



You just throw anybody who doesn't agree with you 100% under the bus. But you fail to realize that 80% of the people who have signed up since Obama has been president are just here because their angry about Democrats being in control.


Signed up where? Here? Provide proof then, provide proof that there is a significant number of people on this forum who are only anti-democrat reactionaries.

Just because I'm not willing to give socialized health care a chance or whatever, does not mean I want to throw you under any bus.




I really respect the posts Danno made in this thread(and not just because Trailer Park Boys is one of my favorite shows). It would seem he understands that it's not one party against another. It's us vs the government, and it involves working together. I don't care how you guys proceed...but it's my opinion you'd be well served not having 5 pages of ignorant rants about 2 liberals, even when they are on the right side of the argument.

I'd like to think its us vs. the state and its propagandists, which easily includes people like Olbermann (dude is blatantly partisan). And I'm pretty sure it includes people like Moore, but I have never chosen to waste my time and watch one of his movies. And I don't need to see his movie Sicko to know socialized healthcare, in any form, is wrong from both a moral and utilitarian perspective. I would be willing to read "reputable" left wing books, and I have read left-wing books. But I'm not going to watch any of Moore's films. I'm not the documentary type, most of them are trash. And my intuition tells me Moore's films most likely are not reliable sources of information and are untrustworthy in their presentation. Wah.

[jtstellar]

If people in this movement were more like Danno, you would see a TON of liberal support to get behind what it stands for(I know I know...you don't want us darn liberals in here). But again, judging from the responses in this thread and pretty much any thread...it's 100% clear that this is just a partisan Republican movement as much as you like to say both sides are the problem(which they are).

I have liberal views when it comes to things like social issues and war. And I have conservative issues on tons of other things. The only thing I would disagree on with a lot of people here is healthcare. And I don't even think Obama care is the answer, but healthcare is so screwed right now i'm willing to give it a shot.

I think a lot of you don't really talk to liberals. I have read over and over that Liberals are the close-minded ones. Yet we're always the ones standing there waiting for a compromise.

I think a lot of you know the hard right republicans hijacked this movement. And come the next election, when Obama is voted out of office...all of those people will disappear. And then the Republicans will be back in the drivers seat, and liberals will be whining like they always do...sitting back and watching. And then you will wonder if this movement ever really meant anything at all. It still can mean something. But when curious liberals like myself come here to check out if what i see on TV is really the partisan republican hacks that make up the tea party...it seems like it is. You just throw anybody who doesn't agree with you 100% under the bus. But you fail to realize that 80% of the people who have signed up since Obama has been president are just here because their angry about Democrats being in control.

I really respect the posts Danno made in this thread(and not just because Trailer Park Boys is one of my favorite shows). It would seem he understands that it's not one party against another. It's us vs the government, and it involves working together. I don't care how you guys proceed...but it's my opinion you'd be well served not having 5 pages of ignorant rants about 2 liberals, even when they are on the right side of the argument.

i don't respect/dont want to talk to anyone who hasn't spent at least two hours a day reading up on political and financial matters and getting education instead of just listening to tv talking points to the point where he is willingly describing himself with derogatory terms such as liberal or conservative.

using oneself as an example by exclaiming loudly "i will" "i like" "i think" "i will only respect!", i i i, then proceed to give an example as to induce others to follow through.. such a method commonly used by uneducated "liberals" who can't reference things in a larger aspect of political environment or history that has to reference to the smallest denomination--self. don't worry, you're on a distinguished path. i remember one liberal on the young turks once trying to make an argument to support the war on drugs by arguing a potential increased rate of use. just when all others are citing greater economical/political factors to be considered in favor of drug legalization, he jumped in and just said flat out "you know what, if drugs were cheaper because of the legalization, i will inhale", and he sounded SO convincing for a moment by pretending to use himself as an example at one point. but then, a guy asked him, how much does marijuanna cost right now. he hesitated, then said he didn't know. i just get a sick feeling in my stomach. it's like a woman trying to bait her kid into doing something and she pretends to do it although she by no means has any sort of good habitual conduct of doing something like that naturally. she pretends to do it so that just for an instance she can cheat others into doing/thinking something else about her. fucking disgusting. now you're trying to use "yourself" as an example and half a dozen posters you see here to make a generalization how this WHOLE movement is ineffective in persuasion. trust me, self is the most unconvincing denominator reserved for the mentally weak.

there's nothing that can be said to you at this point. come back after at least 4 hours a day of youtube videos (easiest way for you) a day for another 3 to 4 months at least on financial education FROM those who actually predicted the crisis not your cult liberal models bernanke/paul krookman and realize why ideas of liberal who are best defined as crusaders against any economic sense because that's all that defines them--railing against things in economics--just doesn't work. then we'll talk, perhaps.

[Todd]

If people in this movement were more like Danno, you would see a TON of liberal support to get behind what it stands for(I know I know...you don't want us darn liberals in here). But again, judging from the responses in this thread and pretty much any thread...it's 100% clear that this is just a partisan Republican movement as much as you like to say both sides are the problem(which they are).

I have liberal views when it comes to things like social issues and war. And I have conservative issues on tons of other things. The only thing I would disagree on with a lot of people here is healthcare. And I don't even think Obama care is the answer, but healthcare is so screwed right now i'm willing to give it a shot.

I think a lot of you don't really talk to liberals. I have read over and over that Liberals are the close-minded ones. Yet we're always the ones standing there waiting for a compromise.

I think a lot of you know the hard right republicans hijacked this movement. And come the next election, when Obama is voted out of office...all of those people will disappear. And then the Republicans will be back in the drivers seat, and liberals will be whining like they always do...sitting back and watching. And then you will wonder if this movement ever really meant anything at all. It still can mean something. But when curious liberals like myself come here to check out if what i see on TV is really the partisan republican hacks that make up the tea party...it seems like it is. You just throw anybody who doesn't agree with you 100% under the bus. But you fail to realize that 80% of the people who have signed up since Obama has been president are just here because their angry about Democrats being in control.

I really respect the posts Danno made in this thread(and not just because Trailer Park Boys is one of my favorite shows). It would seem he understands that it's not one party against another. It's us vs the government, and it involves working together. I don't care how you guys proceed...but it's my opinion you'd be well served not having 5 pages of ignorant rants about 2 liberals, even when they are on the right side of the argument.

THIS movement? I've seen more diversity and welcoming of such on these forums than I've ever seen in any partisan liberal OR conservative site. You want to see how much the left wants a coalition and compromise? Why not read up on how the left wing anti war movement wants absolutely zilch to do with any other anti war or anti establishment crowd except their own ilk if things aren't done their way. United for Peace and Justice and Code pink are a joke. Here is the so called compromise.

Folly left and right (http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/08/12/folly-left-and-right/)

Getting Beyond Left and Right (http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/11/11/boston-speech/)

Getting Beyond Left and Right part 2 (http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/11/14/getting-beyond-left-and-right/)