The GM IPO is the biggest piece of $#*&^@_) ever!!!!

[the count]

It is all so contrived and bogus it blows the mind. Final chapter of humans kiss their sanity good bye. Wonder how long until it looses more than 50% or will Ben and his banks of satan prop this up too?

[CableNewsJunkie]

They'll use laundered, counterfeit Fed money to prop it up in the short run in order to save face.

[jclay2]

It is all so contrived and bogus it blows the mind. Final chapter of humans kiss their sanity good bye. Wonder how long until it looses more than 50% or will Ben and his banks of satan prop this up too?

Do you have any analytics for this IPO? All I have heard so far is people mentioning 30 Billion in Goodwill to start.

[DirtMcGirt]

Free money for the select few who can buy this stock... absolute BS

[Zippyjuan]

Investors seem to like it. They would not be clammoring for shares if they didn't think the company would be worth more in the future.

[spudea]

greed. Most are expecting to make a quick gain in the secondary market. Plus now there is a concrete history of bailouts. The government will still be the largest owner, so that pretty much guarantees that if anything goes bad, more bailouts will ensue.

[JVParkour]

My Finance teacher put it like this. "Lets see, I can go buy Ford for 13$, who didn't take bailout money, or I can spend over 100$ on GM. Lets see, which one makes sense."

lol...

[Jeez]

My Finance teacher put it like this. "Lets see, I can go buy Ford for 13$, who didn't take bailout money, or I can spend over 100$ on GM. Lets see, which one makes sense."

lol...

It is all a China play, Ford has not done well in Asia. Where as GM has the no 1 brand in Buick in China.

[Merk]

With the magic of POMO the stock will magically levitate no matter how terrible the news or reality is.

[Bruno]

So, is 10% increase on Day 1 out of the question?

[Dr.3D]

Beautiful, they killed their own stock and all of the stockholders lost their money, and now they create new stock and get even more money. Shouldn't the original stockholders get their stocks back?

[DirtMcGirt]

Here's the back story to who can buy this so called IPO...


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Some-Average-Investors-May-Be-cnbc-202637358.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=7&asset=&ccode=

excerpt-
Just two years after a taxpayer bailout salvaged General Motors, some of the nation's largest retail brokerage firms are apparently being shut out of what is poised to be a lucrative investment opportunity as the auto company goes public.

Charles Schwab (NYSE:SCHW - News), TD Ameritrade, and E*Trade are not accepting client orders for GM shares at the moment because they do not expect to receive stock allocations when the company goes public next week, according to investors and brokerage-firm employees.

Other big retail brokerages, such as Morgan Stanley (NYSE:MS - News), are expected to get shares, however, as are big institutional investors and hedge funds.

"TD Ameritrade (NasdaqGS:AMTD - News) will not be participating in the GM IPO offering, as we have been informed that we will not receive an allocation of shares," said a company spokeswoman in an e-mailed statement. "We have several relationships with various underwriting firms for various products, and in this case the underwriting firm is not allocating shares for this offering."

[DirtMcGirt]

This link was on Wilkow's website:

http://www.manufacturing.net/News/2010/11/Automotive-China-To-Take-Part-In-GM-IPO/

excerpt-
Among the banks helping General Motors with its initial public stock offering next week are two identified by initials only: ICBC and CICC.

Americans uncomfortable with U.S. government ownership of General Motors may want to hear more: One of those banks is the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, one of China's four big central government banks. The other, China International Capital Corp., is a joint venture run primarily by Central Huijin Investment Ltd., an arm of the state, and Morgan Stanley.

This is the first time Chinese government banks have participated in a major U.S.-issued IPO, according to IPO tracking firm Dealogic. The banks are listed as co-managers in the offering, meaning they will sell a portion of the new shares.

Chinese automaker SAIC, GM's partner in China, is finalizing plans to buy a roughly 1 percent stake, worth about $500 million, in GM's IPO, the Wall Street Journal reported Friday. SAIC is owned by the Shanghai city government.

[devil21]

Pretending to fail does wonders for companies like GM. Shed (screw?) all your current bondholders, take bailout money to buy off the unions for votes and to build brand new factories overseas in places like Russia and China, then offer up an IPO with only the TBTF banks in on the action and underwritten by Chinese banks.

Pretending to fail is one of the best business moves a corporation can make.

[Dforkus]

It is all a China play, Ford has not done well in Asia. Where as GM has the no 1 brand in Buick in China. ding, we have a winner

say what you want about the bailout (and of course there is a lot to be said), but GM has done very well in Asia, and has kicked absolute butt in China..

Even in their darkest days they were still making solid profits in Asia..
When thinking of the auto business it is utterly myopic to think of the North American Market...

The reality is, the bailout served as the catalyst to get them on a realistic footing with the UAW (ford is unionized to BTW), and make some business decisions like shedding under-performing brands/models, and focusing on new higher quality product like the Cadillac CTS, the Chevy Malibu, and the Buick Lacrosse

My Finance teacher put it like this. "Lets see, I can go buy Ford for 13$, who didn't take bailout money, or I can spend over 100$ on GM. Lets see, which one makes sense." lol

"Let's see" If your teacher was as smart as he thought he was, he'd be making a living picking stocks and not teaching high school. "lol"

//Full disclosure:
I actually DO own ford stock, bought below 5$ kicking myself for not buying more.

I'm NOT planning to buy the new GM, at least not yet, because I don't have the time/inclination, or admittedly the skill, to adequately price it.

[JVParkour]

"Let's see" If your teacher was as smart as he thought he was, he'd be making a living picking stocks and not teaching high school. "lol"

//Full disclosure:
I actually DO own ford stock, bought below 5$ kicking myself for not buying more.

I'm NOT planning to buy the new GM, at least not yet, because I don't have the time/inclination, or admittedly the skill, to adequately price it.

Unfortunately, my finance teacher has a doctorate and masters degree, teaches at a university, not a high school, started, built, and sold a 30 million dollar company, and bought Ford at 2$ a share and sold at 12$ a share... He teaches now because he is bored... Way to go making assumptions...

[Jordan]

Unfortunately, my finance teacher has a doctorate and masters degree, teaches at a university, not a high school, started, built, and sold a 30 million dollar company, and bought Ford at 2$ a share and sold at 12$ a share... He teaches now because he is bored... Way to go making assumptions...

Well if he said what you quoted:

"Lets see, I can go buy Ford for 13$, who didn't take bailout money, or I can spend over 100$ on GM. Lets see, which one makes sense."

Then he doesn't seem like the sharpest person in the world. Share values are irrelevant, and in this case, taking bailout money put GM on better financial footing than Ford.

[Jordan]

Beautiful, they killed their own stock and all of the stockholders lost their money, and now they create new stock and get even more money. Shouldn't the original stockholders get their stocks back?

The original shareholders, except the preferred stock holders, should've lost everything.

The company should have been sold piece by piece to the highest bidder and the proceeds given first to bondholders, then preferred stock owners, then common shareholders. Likely, the bondholders would've been the only ones getting anything back.

Regardless, the US government completely rewrote bankruptcy law just for General Motors. I can't seem to find the recent specifics, but I know this explanation is pretty close to what was finally agreed upon:


Under the terms of the plan, bondholders would initially receive 10 percent. They could then exercise their warrants for an additional 7.5 percent when the new G.M. rises to about $15 billion in value. The second set of warrants for the final 7.5 percent would be exercisable when new G.M. rises to $30 billion in value.

The union would initially receive a 17.5 percent stake to finance a health care trust for its retirees. It has also received warrants to raise that holding to 20 percent — but those warrants are exercisable only if new G.M.’s value hits $75 billion.

Once the union and bondholders achieve their full stakes, the government’s share would drop to 55 percent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/business/29auto.html

[Cowlesy]

Well if he said what you quoted:

"Lets see, I can go buy Ford for 13$, who didn't take bailout money, or I can spend over 100$ on GM. Lets see, which one makes sense."

Then he doesn't seem like the sharpest person in the world. Share values are irrelevant, and in this case, taking bailout money put GM on better financial footing than Ford.

Glad someone pointed that out.


---

By the way, I think I read somewhere that a big chunk of the IPO proceeds are going into the UAW Pension Trust. Gee, what a *great* use of IPO proceeds --- to sure up a pension plan. Glad they aren't using the money to grow the company, but rather to fill holes that will only grow bigger.

With the lead cross of the UAW on the automakers' backs, GM is still a dog to me.

[Cowlesy]

GM will receive no proceeds from the common stock offering. It plans to use the proceeds from the preferred offering to buy Series A preferred shares held by the U.S. Treasury and make contributions to its U.S. hourly and salaried pension plans.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AF5OD20101116

Yeah, I'm going to pass buying any shares in the secondary market once it starts trading.

[the count]

Beautiful, they killed their own stock and all of the stockholders lost their money, and now they create new stock and get even more money. Shouldn't the original stockholders get their stocks back?

You see, that logic might apply in a sane world. But we now live in a topsy turvy world where up is down and good is bad. In a normal world, would the stock market go up when there is economic news so bad the FED has to pump money in...again?! Of course, you will find talking heads on CNBC all day long that will explain to us why the nonsense is perfectly acceptable.

[Jordan]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AF5OD20101116

Yeah, I'm going to pass buying any shares in the secondary market once it starts trading.

Great. The only capital GM raised today has to be repaid at an estimated 5% per year.

It's both funny, and not at all funny at the same time.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Investors seem to like it. They would not be clammoring for shares if they didn't think the company would be worth more in the future.
Well, Yeah, wouldn't you invest in a no lose company that has great influence/lobbyists to cover your back?

I haven't looked at their numbers closely, but I would like to see thhe escrow accounts and their investment/expenditures.

How much did GM make off that $50 billion gambling on Wall St and subsidies, even from China, which offers discount corporate tax rates for foreign entities to move their business to the mainland.

It's all a rigged game... I just truly feel for the creditors and bond holders that got fucked in the government "Picking Winners" for votes, campaign contributions, and party support.

[puppetmaster]

its a fixed game...the fed needs somewhere to send that 600B they just printed. if GM was such a buy, even in China then why did they need out tax money. Fact is GM US is worthless and severely bloated still and China will not and could not support GM global. New cars wont sell if the economy keeps getting worse

[Bruno]

up 7.11%

[Dr.3D]

You see, that logic might apply in a sane world. But we now live in a topsy turvy world where up is down and good is bad. In a normal world, would the stock market go up when there is economic news so bad the FED has to pump money in...again?! Of course, you will find talking heads on CNBC all day long that will explain to us why the nonsense is perfectly acceptable.

Well, the reason I asked about the original stock holders, is that from what I understand, those people were told they lost their stocks, well... they were given pennies on the dollar when those stocks were liquidated against the will of the holders and then everything started all over again. Seems the original holders should have been able to keep what they had, no matter the value and ride it back up again should that happen.

[dannno]

It is all a China play, Ford has not done well in Asia. Where as GM has the no 1 brand in Buick in China.

Buick?? Really??

How much more "American" can you scream??

Not to mention, Buicks are not a small car.. they are like economical Cadillacs.. the asians have historically gone for small cars.. very interesting..

http://www.velocityjournal.com/images/logos/buick.jpg

[dannno]

Unfortunately, my finance teacher has a doctorate and masters degree, teaches at a university, not a high school, started, built, and sold a 30 million dollar company, and bought Ford at 2$ a share and sold at 12$ a share... He teaches now because he is bored... Way to go making assumptions...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pS7sKjlzwFg/S_pBP3Q2zGI/AAAAAAAAFqM/p-G-fMOH0Vw/s320/kelso-burn.jpg


Who saw that one coming :confused:

[Jeez]

Buick?? Really??

How much more "American" can you scream??

Not to mention, Buicks are not a small car.. they are like economical Cadillacs.. the asians have historically gone for small cars.. very interesting..

http://www.velocityjournal.com/images/logos/buick.jpg

I don't Buick ever sold 50,000 cars in a month in US, it hit that mark in October in China.


General Motors says it has become the first global automaker to sell 2 million vehicles in China in a single year.

But the bigger news is GM is on track to sell more cars in China than in the U.S. this year. Through October, GM has sold 1.8 million vehicles in the U.S.

Before you get too worked up about GM's China milestone, note the important word "global." We suspect -- and we feel like we're usually right -- that GM has been bested by the local competition. GM may have the better car, but it's not like saying you have the all-time best selling car in China.

Still bragging right are what they are. And GM weighs in:

"This is another important milestone for General Motors in China," said Kevin Wale, President and Managing Director of the GM China Group. "It was only three years ago that GM became the first global automaker to reach the 1 million annual sales mark in China."

In 2007, GM and its joint ventures sold 1,031,974 vehicles in China. Last year, GM sold 1,826,424 vehicles nationwide.

October sales of Shanghai GM's Buick brand jumped 35.7% on an annual basis to 54,490 units. Demand for both the new LaCrosse sedan, seen in that photo above, and the smaller Excelle, known as the Regal in the U.S., rose more than 40% year on year.

[Jeez]

its a fixed game...the fed needs somewhere to send that 600B they just printed. if GM was such a buy, even in China then why did they need out tax money. Fact is GM US is worthless and severely bloated still and China will not and could not support GM global. New cars wont sell if the economy keeps getting worse

They needed tax money because they need to keep all the plants open in US and could not downsize their massive UAW workforce. If GM had declared bankruptcy they would have restructured and could have redone their contract and pension obligations saving them $$$, which obviously Obama and Unions did not want

[Dforkus]

Unfortunately, my finance teacher has a doctorate and masters degree, teaches at a university, not a high school, started, built, and sold a 30 million dollar company, and bought Ford at 2$ a share and sold at 12$ a share... He teaches now because he is bored... Way to go making assumptions...

Ok, my bad, I shouldn't have made that assumption..
he is just acting/talking stupid (for reasons other posters have done well in pointing out out), but he's not actually stupid..

mea culpa:rolleyes:

If GM had declared bankruptcy they would have restructured and could have redone their contract and pension obligations saving them $$$, which obviously Obama and Unions did not want GM did declare bankruptcy, and have massively redone contract and pension obligations..
The bailout just turned a chapter 7 bankruptcy into a chapter 11 bankruptcy...


Glad someone pointed that out.

By the way, I think I read somewhere that a big chunk of the IPO proceeds are going into the UAW Pension Trust. Gee, what a *great* use of IPO proceeds --- to sure up a pension plan. Glad they aren't using the money to grow the company, but rather to fill holes that will only grow bigger.
With the lead cross of the UAW on the automakers' backs, GM is still a dog to me. I don't think you completely understand. That was the deal as it was negotiated, the eventual re-capitalization of GM would coincide with a one time payment to the Pension plan, at which time pension funding would be an entirely UAW affair.. Ford has now done essentially the same thing...



They needed tax money because they need to keep all the plants open in US and could not downsize their massive UAW workforce. Actually, they did close plants, downsize the workforce, and heavily renegotiate the UAW contract. As of the IPO, GM is effectively out of the retiree healthcare buisness, and new UAW employees get paid less, even less than UAW employees at ford...

Look, don't take this to mean I'm pro bailout, because I'm really not, but its good to base discussion around actual facts, not imagined ones...


Well, Yeah, wouldn't you invest in a no lose
It's all a rigged game... I just truly feel for the creditors and bond holders that got fucked in the government "Picking Winners" for votes, campaign contributions, and party support. Oh, they were already as you say "fucked", for holding such an awful asset till the bitter end.... A chapter 7 liquidation in the midst of the fall 2008 financial collapse, a liquidation into an auto industry that allready had massive overcapacity problems, it would have generated next to nothing...

So yah maybe they got screwed out a a couple pennies on the dollar, and yes that is not a good thing, but when you hear a GM Bondholder whining about the bailout, the true gripe is the bailout didn't bail them out

[SerArris]

They needed tax money because they need to keep all the plants open in US and could not downsize their massive UAW workforce. If GM had declared bankruptcy they would have restructured and could have redone their contract and pension obligations saving them $$$, which obviously Obama and Unions did not want


Yeah. That massive UAW workforce actually has been downsized a bit. IIRC, there were about 117k UAW members working for GM in the beginning of 2006. Right now it is down to about 50-55k. While I agree that the UAW is a bit of a monster, GM put themselves into the position they were in by building shit for years. The union doesn't design, market, and sell the cars...

Oh, and contrary to popular belief, there are a lot of "Ron Paul Republicans" in the union but all we can do is try and educate the people around us.

[georgiaboy]

so hold on, since the gov't still is the majority holder, do they get a piece of the IPO? What do they do with the shares and dividends/proceeds?

Additionally, I never thought I'd be basing car buying decisions on politics. Makes me so mad I could spit nails.

[SerArris]

I am kind of wondering if the government should have waited a bit to sell their stock. Seems they could maybe get the money back quicker if they rode the stock up a little while.

[Bruno]

Is this an error on yahoofinance stock reporting, or are they comparing it to the last price before the government takeover?

Last Trade: 34.91
Trade Time: 1:21PM EST
Change: 34.16 (4,555.23%)

[Romulus]

Look at this
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101118/ap_on_re_us/us_sec_rattner

Ex-auto czar paying $6.2M in SEC settlement


Rattner, a major political fundraiser for Democrats and influential policy figure, left the firm last year to become co-leader of the White House task force that restructured General Motors and Chrysler. He left the government in July and has been promoting his new book on the auto industry since.

[the count]

look at this
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101118/ap_on_re_us/us_sec_rattner

ex-auto czar paying $6.2m in sec settlement

they (politicians, their cronies and banksters) are all crooks! How can anybody with some sanity left put money into the markets?

[Cowlesy]

I don't think you completely understand. That was the deal as it was negotiated, the eventual re-capitalization of GM would coincide with a one time payment to the Pension plan, at which time pension funding would be an entirely UAW affair.. Ford has now done essentially the same thing...


I will believe that when I see it. This morning on CNBC Squawkbox, the head of the UAW was being interviewed from the floor of the stock exchange explaining that he's going to ensure that the Union Members all participate on the upside given all their sacrifice.

Not sure if you think the UAW is incapable of running GM right back into the ground, but I think it's a safe bet that in time GM's share price will revert back to a Donut.

[HOLLYWOOD]

ONE HUGE PROPAGANDA FASCIST CORPORATIST GAMEPLAN!

PPT in effect today... even though bad news on earnings front and unemployment claims up.

President Obama is set to speak on the GM IPO after 4PM todaty Do you really think they would let him speak his propaganda with gains in the market and GM IPO? DUH!

New NYSE BANNER TODAY American Flag replaced with: GENERAL MOTORS

Saw it on the news feed, but can't find one online yet, AOL of the olden days will have to do...

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-FK967_aolher_G_20100203210001.jpg

[Brian4Liberty]

It was a great day for JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley and the other banksters (apparently Chinese banksters got in on the deal too?)! Yippee! They made a killing underwriting the IPO, then they and their cronies who had the privilege of actually buying the initial IPO made a killing selling the stock for an immediate profit (50% supposedly resold instantly, more sold later in the afternoon). Easy money for the privileged few!

This has been such a profitable day that they will no doubt look forward to the next government takeover and IPO.

[the count]

Just copied this off CNN.COM/MONEY

GM
During the Trading Day
34.19 Day’s Change +1.19 / +3.61%
Data as of 4:21pm ET

If the stock started trading at $35 and closes at 34.19 how can that ever be a gain of $1.19??????

[dannno]

Did it actually start trading at $35, or was the first trade at $33?

Not sure how it works, but they could have stated it was going to start trading at $35, but it got bid down to $33 before a trade was placed :confused:

[dannno]

Or the are just lying their asses off.

YouTube - Britney Spears - Toxic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOZuxwVk7TU)

[the count]

Did it actually start trading at $35, or was the first trade at $33?

Not sure how it works, but they could have stated it was going to start trading at $35, but it got bid down to $33 before a trade was placed :confused:

Look here:

http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=GM

The line most definitely starts at $35.00 so the CNN quote is B.S.!

[ghengis86]

Look here:

http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=GM

The line most definitely starts at $35.00 so the CNN quote is B.S.!

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2010/1118/GM-stock-price-up-3.6-percent-on-first-day-five-questions-about-the-IPO

Initial price was $33. The break out price when trading began was $35. It settled just above $34.

[HOLLYWOOD]

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_wkgIzuqJM0w/TOYFaqr97rI/AAAAAAAAHQU/3jwz0GhxQKY/s800/RETAIL.jpg

[Pauls' Revere]

Beautiful, they killed their own stock and all of the stockholders lost their money, and now they create new stock and get even more money. Shouldn't the original stockholders get their stocks back?

exactly what I thought! while were at it, the 13 billion the government made from all this should be returned to the taxpayers with interest for incurring the risk of bailing out GM.

[the count]

my guess is wednesday of next week. then the plunge protection team comes into action. cant let the public know they got scr*wed too fast :=)

[Bruno]

my guess is wednesday of next week. then the plunge protection team comes into action.

This could get interesting...

[Jordan]

my guess is wednesday of next week. then the plunge protection team comes into action. cant let the public know they got scr*wed too fast :=)

This kind of market action is normal surrounding an IPO. With any IPO, you have a lot of people coming into the market with market orders hoping to ride the first day momentum. The next day, especially after a big IPO, you usually have some minute profit-taking from the speculators, and then a generally calmer market a week out from the IPO.

General Motors now has some of the best books on Wall Street. Well, until the unions decide to kill it again. :rolleyes: